PvP Systems Conversation

[The Ace.9105]

My questions are:

1. What is the pvp teams job do and how many people are on the team?
2. Do you work fulltime on pvp?
3. What kind of schedule do you have for stuff for pvp?
4. Do you have multiple new maps and stuff waiting to be released with all this time pvp team has had? (if not, what has drained all the development time?)

[brannigan.9831]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:The PvP team does not handle balance changes... wow. Just... wow.

Yes, since the game's launch in 2012, apparently this is a big revelation? :anguished:

Edit: That would be the skills and balance team

So how does the skills and balance team know how to balance for pvp? I mean really Chaith everyone hasnt been playing this game since 2012 its not really intuitive at all for you to act like this should be common knowledge. A lot of people are just casual players I mean its not really sensical at all that the people responsible for pvp have no role in class balance.

[brannigan.9831]

@Pyrial.2917 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:Hi folks!

On Wednesday, 12/6, the Guild Wars 2 PvP team will be having a community event. We’ll be posting a series of discussion topics that players can join to ask questions or share their comments. We plan to be active in the threads until the end of the week. Our responses won’t be instantaneous, but we will try to get to as many questions and comments as possible.

Our posts will cover the following topics:

• Matchmaking/Leagues
• Automated Tournaments
• Rewards
• Maps
• Game Modes
• Miscellaneous (Note: We may not respond to everything in this thread. There are some things we can’t discuss at this time.)

You’ll notice that skills and balance and player behavior are not included in the list of topics. As most of you are aware, the PvP team does not handle balance changes and we are not responsible for reviewing or responding to player conduct issues. As such, we cannot answer questions on these topics. You should continue to post your questions about skills and balance in the appropriate profession subforum, and you can direct any concerns you have about player conduct to our Customer Support Team.

We look forward to having a good and productive conversation with you starting Wednesday!

HelloOo, nice to see you active!Quaggan is happy you gonna talk with Quaggan and his fishy friends in PvP forums! Quaggan has noticed Game Modes on your list, so he wonders, if we will talk about other modes than Conquest, which would mean, we can hope for tweaks for Stronghold and maybe see some Deathmatch (reworked Coutyard)? Quaggan understands you don't work on balance, but does that mean, profession designers don't read PvP forums and nobody is sharing our concerns with them?

The balance team does look at the PvP forums, though they watch the class specific forums more often.

That's productive...they go to the forums where each profession always feels under balanced. That explains it all.

Yes it does explain it all and there stupidity. I could just look at class data in spvp and figure out what is op and up faster then going to the class forums where 90% of the players are super self interested and biased.

[Chaith.8256]

@brannigan.9831 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:The PvP team does not handle balance changes... wow. Just... wow.

Yes, since the game's launch in 2012, apparently this is a big revelation? :anguished:

Edit: That would be the skills and balance team

So how does the skills and balance team know how to balance for pvp? I mean really Chaith everyone hasnt been playing this game since 2012 its not really intuitive at all for you to act like this should be common knowledge. A lot of people are just casual players I mean its not really sensical at all that the people responsible for pvp have no role in class balance.

How does the skills and balance team know how to balance for PvP? ArenaNet has access to many statistics, metrics, graphs on how much the PvP populace is representing whatever mechanic. Designing PvP systems like leaderboards, map design, PvP UI, League algorithm re-designs every 2nd season, it's an entirely different skillset that only has minor interaction with skills & traits. I agree it's not intuitive but it makes sense that way too.

[Chaith.8256]

@brannigan.9831 said:Yes it does explain it all and there stupidity. I could just look at class data in spvp and figure out what is op and up faster then going to the class forums where 90% of the players are super self interested and biased.

I know it's always cool to sneer at how dumb the Devs are but after the crazy elite specs are created, can you name a few recent stupid, or bad balancing decisions? I'd argue that every single change they've made in the PoF balance patch and the quarterly balance patch have been sensible and helpful. I only wish they could make more changes and faster.

I bet the Dev who recently mentioned that "The skills and balance Devs read the profession forums" didn't realize every person will just think "the skills and balance devs ONLY balance around the profession forum posts". My god.

[Nightmare.1234]

i think a change to the game mode would help wonders, but it always seems one class type will always dominate each mode. conquest dominated by AOE pressure, auto proc survival skills and high mobility. stronghold was ruined by healers (what could of been fixed by not allowing ai healing except through boon application). even a 2v2 duelling mode would prob just be scourge/firebrand team.

[breno.5423]

This made my credibility in you guys drop to 0 :'(

[Burnfall.9573]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Pyriall.1683 said:So the most important issue, balance, will not be addressed...

'Understand Your WorthUnderstand Your ValueKnow Your WorthKnow Your Value''

When important matters are continually being shoved under the rug, pack up and go where important matters, matter

''

You Deserve Better

((REPOST))

[Marxx.5021]

A PvP team that does not handle balancing says all. Anet as a company does not care about PvP.

[Kane.6549]

Ok so, we want GvG. We want to be able to set the # of players (5,10,15,20), set it as open invitation or direct invite, and we want the map to scale for it. Also, we'd really enjoy a tutorial mode for conquest and stronghold for beginners. Also, do a conquest map using Mordremoth's end fight (event, not story) map. Throw a ground floor where the mist is, but the cap points are on the platforms, and you have to jump up the scenery to get to them. The cap points could randomly reposition to different platforms, and platforms break randomly, or with enough ground CC. Come on. Do et. This would be so freakin cool.

[Burnfall.9573]

@breno.5423 said:This made my credibility in you guys drop to 0 :'(

(No attack against Anet: Ben)

what i find baffling is that; pvp team+ 'balance team' never works together says the Pvp team.

My question is: is there such a thing called 'balance team' to begin with? Or is this an illusion for them to keep us playing this game?

(What i find suspicious is that, the pvp team always being the frontman of not having anything to do with balance yet supposedly the balance remain never has anything to say about the pvp team?

Or is this really happening??

You Want The Truth?

Can You Handle The Truth?

There It Is...

It's an illusion,

Pvp team does handle balance changes likewise WvW handle balance chance

They both work with the balance team and the design team

-They All Work Together-

The key issue is this-

No One Want To Take Responsibility

[witcher.3197]

He didn't say which year.

What if they bail.

[Kane.6549]

I think I'd like to see a new mode also, aside from GvG. Something with greater risk/reward. Like a deathmatch with bets. People sign up for deathmatches, spectators can place bets. That'd be entertaining as hell.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

I never understood the hype some people have towards tdm ....its plain boring imo. There really is no real "depth" to it and a lot of strategic elements like map awareness or rotation-knowledge simply dont apply.

Guess this is the reason I never really enjoyed wvw. 2 groups circling each other for ages, poking with ranged, precast like 10 times and then - when either side finally commits - its all over in a matter of seconds. And now imagine that in an unorganized setting.....looks terribly unenjoyable to me.Also some classes simply wouldn't have a role. In conquest some classes become viable simply because of the "objective based" mode itself....where factors like mobility, +1 potential or the likes matter. In a tdm setting only teamfighting strength matters, making build diversity and class viability even worse.But to each their own I guess....so if it helps getting more people to care for pvp, by all means, go ahead

[Karl McLain.5604]

It looks like there's some language here that can be cleaned up.Reiterating how the system works: While the PvP team doesn't handle balance directly, they and other teams regularly contribute to the conversation and work with the Skills and Balance team to alleviate pain-points in each of the game modes. The Skills team handles the implementation of changes, reworks, and splits.While we do spend a bunch of time reading the Profession forums (I'm also getting a kick out of the 'general' profession section), we do also read the PvP section regularly and discuss relevant feedback. Tomorrow's thread from the PvP team is to get more into the systems, rewards, and game types themselves. We'll discuss getting a thread like this going in the future for balance, but tomorrow's conversation is going to be specifically on the things listed in Ben's OP.

-Karl

[Burnfall.9573]

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:It looks like there's some language here that can be cleaned up.Reiterating how the system works: While the PvP team doesn't handle balance directly, they and other teams regularly contribute to the conversation and work with the Skills and Balance team to alleviate pain-points in each of the game modes. The Skills team handles the implementation of changes, reworks, and splits.While we do spend a bunch of time reading the Profession forums (I'm also getting a kick out of the 'general' profession section), we do also read the PvP section regularly and discuss relevant feedback. Tomorrow's thread from the PvP team is to get more into the systems, rewards, and game types themselves. We'll discuss getting a thread like this going in the future for balance, but tomorrow's conversation is going to be specifically on the things listed in Ben's OP.

-Karl

Will there be a discussion about thief and mesmer being toxic in pvp as well? They are in desperate need of a complete class redesign. Also not forgetting about the increasingly toxicity in pvp+wvw; which includes all elite specs ranging from Hot to Pof.

Toxicity not excluding:1 shotting, Power Creep, increasing conditions damages, spamming high skill damages, broken stealth, perma evading, invulnerability, passive skills, spamming skills to gain advantage at will without having no consequences, not taking risks and still being rewarded for it. neverending toxicity after toxicity etc..

The toxicity has cost Anet great loss including new players storming out of the game with having the same issues we have been dealing with the game for 5 years+Even causing loyal players leaving as well and more are leaving as we speak. Too many critical important matters are being shoved under the carpet and many of us are finally awaken to it. The truth has come out in full exposure and can no longer be hidden or denied anymore.

People are packing and leaving for gw2 competitor's who strives in turning their game into a healthy, competitive, risk+rewarding and fun. Whose goals is to eliminate toxic design and toxicity environment whenever it surfaces. And most importantly, striving in having what matters be addressed and be resolved for the well being of the game and the for the well being of the players. After all, addressing your customers concerns is the key for a better tomorrow. They will tell the gaming world how good they were treated.. Not going to be perfect; after all, there are no perfect gaming company out there but in the end of the day, all that matters to them is that their concerns were addressed and how they were treated.

If they leave for whatever reasons, they will tell the world how serious steps were taken into resolving important matters which in return, made them feel special.

I'm sorry to say this but we can't wait for the future anymore, we've waited far too long; 5 years+ and counting.

The future can wait for itself, what matters is today; what is happenning now and moving forward. The community need solutions now Anet: Karl

It's either now or never.

[Swagg.9236]

Why persist with the ranking system when no class in GW2 has any sort of established sense of identity or role? When everything is so arbitrary, why try to quantify player "skill?" Player skill can't exist in an environment governed by random design and automated RNG team set-ups. Why not just remove the ranked system entirely, revert back to the old team-queue/solo-queue system or, at the very least, allow players to progress evenly while only doing "unranked" matches?

Why add a "player skill" quantifier to the outcome of PvP encounters which are entirely pre-determined based on player choices made before combat even began (build, gear, class)? I guarantee that if unranked matches allowed people to progress the jewel chest tracks (Byzantium, etc) equally as quickly as the current pace of ranked, we'd see a massive decrease in general playerbase frustration--not because the game would be suddenly improved in any way, but just because PvP would not longer tie its most lucrative rewards to an artificially-engineered emphasis on the existence of "high player skill" in a game which has one of the most claustrophobic skill ceilings that has ever existed within a game that calls itself an "action RPG."

[Khenzy.9348]

Expecting AND talking about decent or at least tolerable balance seems an exercice in futility with this game. The devs can't really do sweeping and considerable changes because the game seems so badly coded that if they touch one thing they risk breaking twenty other things, which in turn a lot of testing is needed and with the relatively recent shift in continual PvE content development, it's something they can't really afford. Hence why they always try doing simple stuff like removing amulets and implementing new ones, new rune sets and so on; and why those quarterly balance patches bring very minor changes as a whole. So no, there's no going back from this power creep any time soon. You all have to be realistic and accept reality.

Your slim glimmer of hope resides in a new map and in a potential new game mode.Sadly, they broke balance a long time ago.

[Xillllix.3485]

@Kane.6549 said:Ok so, we want GvG. We want to be able to set the # of players (5,10,15,20), set it as open invitation or direct invite, and we want the map to scale for it. Also, we'd really enjoy a tutorial mode for conquest and stronghold for beginners. Also, do a conquest map using Mordremoth's end fight (event, not story) map. Throw a ground floor where the mist is, but the cap points are on the platforms, and you have to jump up the scenery to get to them. The cap points could randomly reposition to different platforms, and platforms break randomly, or with enough ground CC. Come on. Do et. This would be so freakin cool.

+10 freaking thousand thumbs up

[Prime Shock.9386]

I've got some input on the ranked season placement system you have. Just some back story first though. I'm a PvE'er, due to location I can't PvP competitively, I participated in the first 3-4 seasons then just dropped PvP entirely and haven't been back to ranked until this season(9). My placement matches were nothing special, 5-5 win/loss and I either trounced a less experienced team, or got trounced by a more experienced team.

How is it, with this in mind, did I manage to place in gold 2 after my final placement match? Shouldn't placement matches also look at ranked history? The matches always seemed heavily skewed one way or the other which would indicate I'm being put in games above my skill level. Did this contribute to an inflated "skill rating"?

Couldn't there be an option, a simple check box before your first placement match that asks if you'd like to start from the very bottom and work your way up, or to let the placement system decide where you should start. It is my opinion that such a system that allows players the choice to push their way through the skill ratings from the bottom would allow for a more natural progression of skill.

[Kuya.6495]

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:It looks like there's some language here that can be cleaned up.Reiterating how the system works: While the PvP team doesn't handle balance directly, they and other teams regularly contribute to the conversation and work with the Skills and Balance team to alleviate pain-points in each of the game modes. The Skills team handles the implementation of changes, reworks, and splits.While we do spend a bunch of time reading the Profession forums (I'm also getting a kick out of the 'general' profession section), we do also read the PvP section regularly and discuss relevant feedback. Tomorrow's thread from the PvP team is to get more into the systems, rewards, and game types themselves. We'll discuss getting a thread like this going in the future for balance, but tomorrow's conversation is going to be specifically on the things listed in Ben's OP.

-Karl

Thank you for clarifying.

Hopefully in the balance discussion you will have in the future we can get tangible answers as to whether there will ever be a more streamlined, speedier , and highly community engaged process for balancing pvp that's different from the current approach of different game modes all sending their feedback to the same balance team, which just seems like a much slower process.

[Pinkunicorn of Dethecus.32]

tbh more game modes don't matter if you support them as poorly as you "supported" stronghold. Nothing else matters because balance is completely out of your hands, apparently.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:It looks like there's some language here that can be cleaned up.Reiterating how the system works: While the PvP team doesn't handle balance directly, they and other teams regularly contribute to the conversation and work with the Skills and Balance team to alleviate pain-points in each of the game modes. The Skills team handles the implementation of changes, reworks, and splits.While we do spend a bunch of time reading the Profession forums (I'm also getting a kick out of the 'general' profession section), we do also read the PvP section regularly and discuss relevant feedback. Tomorrow's thread from the PvP team is to get more into the systems, rewards, and game types themselves. We'll discuss getting a thread like this going in the future for balance, but tomorrow's conversation is going to be specifically on the things listed in Ben's OP.

-Karl

Balance and the metas will change through patches.

It's good to see that the conversation will include "game types themselves"; I actually believe that this would be better than a balance. Why? Because if there were different game types that existed, perhaps certain other/different classes could excel at those better than others, as they do now with the (essentially) one we have. Then players won't feel excluded with the profession they love if it does good at least in one competitive game mode.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

Hey guys,

The PvP Team will be starting their discussion threads tomorrow. They are going to be reading your thoughts, and engaging with you on a variety of topics. I'm asking you to please contribute in a meaningful and considerate way. I see a lot of posts in this thread arguing with the premise of the PvP conversations. I've seen a few posts that mods had to remove, which is really unfortunate.

Sure, you're passionate. Sure, you have other topics you'd like to talk about in addition to those on the docket this week. For this series of conversations, the team has outlined the topics at hand, and the subjects to be covered are interesting and broad. Please show the devs the respect they're showing you by starting these conversations. Please stick with the topics as outlined, and don't use the threads to try to hammer home your opinions on other subjects. (Did I say we know there are other things on your mind, too? Yes, I did. And we do!) In the end, it's to everyone's benefit to make this a successful experience for all concerned and as mentioned, other conversations may flow out of this one.

Thanks for reading.

[Ario.8964]

Thanks for the notice on the upcoming discussions, I look forward to it.

To everyone complaining about them not addressing balance: Stop complaining about it. They're taking a new step and reaching out to the community (something we have asked for for a long time) and allowing us to address concerns with the system we have been whining so much about and all you do is whine about balance like everything should happen in one discussion and overnight? REALLY? This is possibly a gateway to massive overhauls and changes being brought into this game to make it exactly the type of competitive game we want, stop complaining and start gathering your thoughts so we can have the best discussions possible.