PvP Systems Conversation

[Cynz.9437]

I can't wait for matchmaking and rank gain/loss calculation discussion.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

The balance team does look at the PvP forums, though they watch the class specific forums more often.

That actually explains a lot on why they constantly make mistakes. The class specific forums are full of bias and PvE players asking for changes that would break the game.

If the balance team really wants to do PvP justice they should send out a survey to all gold II and higher players at the end of each season. I'm in platinum and would be glad to do a simple 5 minute survey myself. Feedback from people who actually play ranked is going to be 1000x more useful than trying to figure out which posts in the mostly PvE area are actually good ideas for sPvP.

It certainly would have helped us to at least warn the balance team of just how bad the "Scourge with a Firebrand pocket healer" was going to be if they didn't nerf it. Instead, they actually buffed it and now it's a huge problem this season being seen almost every game. The pairing when up against a team that doesn't have it ends up with something like a 70~85% win ratio last I checked. This could have been prevented.

[Sindrener.1592]

Will you sticky the threads so it's easier to see them @Gaile Gray.6029 ?

[Sojourner.4621]

ANet: "We're preparing to go out of our way to have a conversation with you all about a specific set of things that a lot of people have been asking for for a while. We can't discuss this one other issue just yet, but we'll see what the current discussion leads in to in the future and try to get that on the table next."Community: "Kitten that, the only thing worth talking about is that thing you said we're not talking about yet. Kitten You, ANet."Community Elsewhere: "Why doesn't ANet ever communicate with us?"

[Kraitan.8476]

Anything on different game modes? conquest is rather intense & small scale and breeds toxicity & promotes bunker-y gameplay. After 10000 games this can become stale. Can we expect anything with larger maps, maybe 10v10, 15v15 or 20v20 with average 30-45 mins gameplay? (hinting at WSG/Arathi basin from WoW here)Furthermore, how about an unranked 2v2 queue? It could be so much fun but absolutely NOBODY will take the effort to find a suitable 2v2 enemy in LFG/PvP lobby meaning that the 2v2 map might as well not have been introduced, it's as dead as stronghold at this point and not because there's fundamental flaws with it, MERELY because it's so goddamn difficult to find players to fight without any queueu whatsoever.

[breno.5423]

Massive aoe damages are incompatible with conquest mode, just saying. Remove sand shades from pvp or its gonna die

[Xillllix.3485]

Well I hope everyone asks for GvG. Really conquest has ran it's course.

[Bossun.2046]

Where are the threads? D:

[Fara.9835]

@Bossun.2046 said:Where are the threads? D:

Coming in few hours i think , don't forget that Arenanet is an American studio , i don't think they will post threads at EU west prime time

[Lanhelin.3480]

@Bossun.2046 said:Where are the threads? D:

Mind that wednesday just has begun on westcoast (it's about 8:00AM there).

[Murdock.6547]

Another reward-track supporting game mode could be nice.. some sort of mindless slaughterfest could be cool. Like king of the hill or something.I'm casual af and I honestly just want to kill dudes with little context or objective. A spin on TDM could be cool as well.

[WilnerGW.3275]

Hi All;If we want GW2 to have a good PVP community, we should have more Websites with PVP Data. I am a League of Legends player, and i often spend alot of time just visiting some websites that contains data about the game. Examples:

• Champion.gg: Winrate, Playrate, Builds, damage dealt, damage taken, output healing, for every champion in the. Those informations are created using real data collected from ranked games in all World. Its so usefull if you want to "climb" elos (or divisions) in the game.

• Probuilds.net: This site list only games played by professional players in their SoloQ's accounts. Lets say i am a fan of a specific player, i can see its historic on ranked games.

• Op.gg: this one is the best IMO. Similar to Champion.gg, except by the fact you can download and WATCH the game played by a specific player. This is very important to learn rotations, decisions making and even build paths.

I know alot of people will say: "GW2 PVP is dead, dont worry about it" and all the bla bla bla, but i would like to see something at least similar for our Game. Atm the only WebSite we have is Metabattle.com, and you can only see builds tier list.

This might depend on ANET releasing an API with data from ranked games, and similar stuff.

What do you think? Is there any other GW2 PVP Website i dont know?

[Gaile Gray.6029]

Yep, coming this morning, I'm sure. Give the team a bit of time to get in the office and set up the conversations, but we're looking forward to them!

@Fara.9835 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:Where are the threads? D:

Coming in few hours i think , don't forget that Arenanet is an American studio , i don't think they will post threads at EU west prime time

[Aeolus.3615]

@Xillllix.3485 said:Well I hope everyone asks for GvG. Really conquest has ran it's course.

With the actual class desing and awfull balance >_> not sure if it is a good thing.

Reason i sugested to remove stronghold and swap for something more similiar to:https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Heroes%27_AscentWith a larger pvp map with 2 team of 5 on each side with complex tasks to penetrate trough defenses where they need to fight as well.´

EDIT: still easy to get imba with anything with more than >=5playersWich i believe the balance team should cooperate with the PVP team if they are adressing the Game Modes added to pvp.Game modes might not work with the current balance towards pve simpletons.

It is strange when a dev team is carried/setted to work on a gamemode when theres another team they deppend to, and that team does not exist or avoids complexity that would make the game easyer to balance towards the gamemodes.

That for me is the same has try to work with tied hands. (wish the best for the pvp dev's)

[hestiansun.1425]

Just curious, not to be "that guy", but when are the discussions going up and how long will they be up for? It's almost 12:30pm EST at present. (I know anet operates on PST typically, but that still means it's 9:30 and usually things you all do "in the morning" is done by now.).

I would like to offer some thoughts/questions on a few things, but don't want to end up missing out because they get posted while I'm looking away and conclude within two hours. Thanks.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

@hestiansun.1425 said:Just curious, not to be "that guy", but when are the discussions going up and how long will they be up for? It's almost 12:30pm EST at present. (I know anet operates on PST typically, but that still means it's 9:30 and usually things you all do "in the morning" is done by now.).

I would like to offer some thoughts/questions on a few things, but don't want to end up missing out because they get posted while I'm looking away and conclude within two hours. Thanks.

I'm going to get the posts started around 10 PST. 30 minutes from now.

[hestiansun.1425]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@hestiansun.1425 said:Just curious, not to be "that guy", but when are the discussions going up and how long will they be up for? It's almost 12:30pm EST at present. (I know anet operates on PST typically, but that still means it's 9:30 and usually things you all do "in the morning" is done by now.).

I would like to offer some thoughts/questions on a few things, but don't want to end up missing out because they get posted while I'm looking away and conclude within two hours. Thanks.

I'm going to get the posts started around 10 PST. 30 minutes from now.

Awesome! Many thanks for the quick response. I'll await to see the stickies!

[Burnfall.9573]

@Ario.8964 said:Thanks for the notice on the upcoming discussions, I look forward to it.

To everyone complaining about them not addressing balance: Stop complaining about it. They're taking a new step and reaching out to the community (something we have asked for for a long time) and allowing us to address concerns with the system we have been whining so much aboutand all you do is whine about balance like everything should happen in one discussion and overnight? REALLY? This is possibly a gateway to massive overhauls and changes being brought into this game to make it exactly the type of competitive game we want, stop complaining and start gathering your thoughts so we can have the best discussions possible.

I am not offending you;; are you new to this game? Reason why i ask is because matchmaking open discussion with them isn't new at all. Anyhow, i'll be staying out of their discussions until serious matters are being addressed.

[Ario.8964]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Ario.8964 said:Thanks for the notice on the upcoming discussions, I look forward to it.

To everyone complaining about them not addressing balance: Stop complaining about it.

They're taking a new step and reaching out to the community (something we have asked for for a long time) and allowing us to address concerns with the system we have been whining so much about

and all you do is whine about balance like everything should happen in one discussion and overnight? REALLY? This is possibly a gateway to massive overhauls and changes being brought into this game to make it exactly the type of competitive game we want, stop complaining and start gathering your thoughts so we can have the best discussions possible.

I am not offending you;; are you new to this game?

I don't get offended by questions. Your answer would be no though...But I am curious as for where the question came from because as far as I know there hasn't been this big on an outreach outside of polls before. Certainly not a dedicated discussion between devs and players to discuss problems with the systems in place.

[hestiansun.1425]

@Ario.8964 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Ario.8964 said:Thanks for the notice on the upcoming discussions, I look forward to it.

To everyone complaining about them not addressing balance: Stop complaining about it.

They're taking a new step and reaching out to the community (something we have asked for for a long time) and allowing us to address concerns with the system we have been whining so much about

and all you do is whine about balance like everything should happen in one discussion and overnight? REALLY? This is possibly a gateway to massive overhauls and changes being brought into this game to make it exactly the type of competitive game we want, stop complaining and start gathering your thoughts so we can have the best discussions possible.

I am not offending you;; are you new to this game?

I don't get offended by questions. Your answer would be no though...But I am curious as for where the question came from because as far as I know there hasn't been this big on an outreach outside of polls before. Certainly not a dedicated discussion between devs and players to discuss problems with the systems in place.

I think it's a case of "cynicism" and/or "realism" vs optimism.

You seem to be very optimistic that this will lead to "massive overhauls".

It seems pretty clear that the intent now that the threads are popping up is to tell us what very minor changes are happening and solicit our buy-in.

Many of the suggestions and requests those of us in the PVP community were hoping to make are already ruled out by the definitions at the starts of the threads.

This isn't a brainstorming session, or even an upload of discussion from the community. They are telling us what they are doing. And kinda want us to say that we like it.I don't get the sense that anything we suggest here will be implemented because they have already said before any player said anything that "this this and this will not be added or changed".

I'm not trying to be cynical. But as someone who is a professional in corporate communication, training, and change management, I can tell you authoritatively that the Number 1 rule of any "open discussion" or "brainstorming" type activity is to never, ever start off by telling people what they can't suggest.

Which is what tells me this isn't really an open discussion, despite the title and the statement of what it is.

And that's ok. I'm not going to curse anet for it or say anything negative. That's their business decision. But it doesn't change the nature of what this is - a dog and pony show of what they have already planned to do based around what they think we want. Which, again, is typical Anet. Which is why some others were less optimistic than you were.

Me, I guess I'll just wait to see if they DO want to solicit ideas and thoughts on improving PVP at some point in the future. This doesn't appear to be it.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

About the conversations: Maybe the post above was written before the threads were read. But if you look at the threads, it should be clear that these are not simply update threads -- they each are intended is a conversation on a specific topic or set of topics. The reasons for the conversations are to inform, sure, but also to draw player feedback, input, and suggestions. After all, a two-way exchange is the very element of a conversation: Not just saying, but listening in return.

Each conversation is stickied, so please join in!

[Vieux P.1238]

Anet announcements. In my view this hole discussion is useless unless they first address Balance issues. & only way to fix this is put a plateau on heals, damage & any thing that power creeps or keeps players immortal. This way there's no optimum & it opens up for trying different builds since there is no optimum. My 2 cents

[hestiansun.1425]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:About the conversations: Maybe the post above was written before the threads were read. But if you look at the threads, it should be clear that these are not simply update threads -- they each are intended is a conversation on a specific topic or set of topics. The reasons for the conversations are to inform, sure, but also to draw player feedback, input, and suggestions. After all, a two-way exchange is the very element of a conversation: Not just saying, but listening in return.

Each conversation is stickied, so please join in!

I don't really intend to argue with you, Gaile, so I'm just going to comment once here. But since you suggested I didn't look at or read the threads (which IMO was not particularly respectful to one of your players, who is being courteous and respectful although disagreeing with you), here is why I said what I did.The first post "kicks off" by telling us what is already being done, and then provides justification for how what is being done is working fine. There actually isn't even a question there - just some stats, and then a "keep this in mind" reason to discount concerns players may raise. There is literally nothing to respond to in this post, and all of the defenses of the existing system were already made in the first post. That's not a conversation starter, that's a statement. It's like starting a conversation with, "I want to talk about ice cream. Studies show vanilla is our most popular flavor. Some people may think that variety is nice, but we've found that anyone who wants a different flavor can just sprinkles to make their enjoyment of vanilla better." Where do we go with that "conversation" ? It's really just closed linguistically, even if the comments section is open.

Let's go to the thread about modes. Literally the very first thing said is:We still have no current plans to support additional game modes with a queue

How should we interpret it as anything other than telling us before we've even started not to even bother with some set of comments?

Please understand that it is these comments which to me convey that these threads are not intended as ways to solicit open opinions. The very first thing we are being told in these threads is what we cannot suggest and what you will not consider.

I don't see how anything in the first post of matchmaking thread "draws feedback". It literally starts by telling players that everything is fine, and if they think otherwise really it's because of XYZ reason.

I mean, it's fine. I'm not angry at anet. Just don't pretend that this is something that it's not.

And please don't pretend that the reason that players disagree with you is that they can't read. Insulting your players isn't a great way to foster whatever improvement you are actually seeking in the community.

BTW, if you are being earnest in your statements and not just telling me what "should" or "should not" be clear to me as a reader, perhaps you mean "it should be clear" to suggest that that was Anet's intent. If that's the case, then actually make them that way. Because right now, they're not. Just because you want them to be something doesn't mean it was conveyed that way, and if you're not conveying that, the failure is in delivery of the message, not in our inability to interpret your intent vs your actual.

[Xstein.2187]

Beings the balance team is separate, I know this may seem like a weird request, but could we get a conquest game mode that does not allow condition damage or condition duration stats. I know it may sound like I am poking fun or something, but I am actually dead serious.I have been waiting for conditions to be handled differently since HoT was released and haven't really seen the type of changes that I have been looking for, so the next best thing for me would be a game mode that essentially excludes condition builds.

[otto.5684]

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:It looks like there's some language here that can be cleaned up.Reiterating how the system works: While the PvP team doesn't handle balance directly, they and other teams regularly contribute to the conversation and work with the Skills and Balance team to alleviate pain-points in each of the game modes. The Skills team handles the implementation of changes, reworks, and splits.While we do spend a bunch of time reading the Profession forums (I'm also getting a kick out of the 'general' profession section), we do also read the PvP section regularly and discuss relevant feedback. Tomorrow's thread from the PvP team is to get more into the systems, rewards, and game types themselves. We'll discuss getting a thread like this going in the future for balance, but tomorrow's conversation is going to be specifically on the things listed in Ben's OP.

-Karl

I have been playing the game since a 8-9 month pre HoT release and the class balance is the worst as I can remember by a large margin, and it overwhelms anything to talk about in sPvP.

New map? Are you going to fix class balance so I can enjoy the new map?Systems/game types? Unless something new coming, what as their to talk about. And again, how are they going to be fun when class balance is broken?Rewards? Do they even change? Same problem of class balance again.

It is just whatever you guys want to talk about is very low on the priority, and honestly, is probably about 8-12 month hypotheticals. Unless you fix class balance now, we are not interested much in futuristic topics.

Class balance team may have muddied the water for you, but it is a price you (as Anet) all have to pay.