What happened to WvW?

[Leger.3724]

The underlying combat system always sucked. And then in 2014 specializations happened. Nail in the coffin.

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Except players in general don't care about scoring, they only care for

This is where we spin the dice. 80% will go where they think they will get paid. 10% will attack, 10% will defend. 

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

fights and sometimes protecting upgrades.

Only 10% will always defend. 

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Playing on the other side of the map away from the blob isn't countering them, scoring is meaningless, you're backcapping stuff hoping they won't come to defend because you don't have a choice really.

Mileage varies here. Each time we can draw more away from the real target, all the better since it means our side had less to face. And when they use more to deflect less, I see that as a win since it means they had less elsewhere. 

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Blobs in general don't split themselves, there's no reason to

Agree to the no reason to do so which is why I side with end of week reasons. In order to combat 1&2 going for 3 and reasons to players to do more with less we need more than, because that we have now.

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

But the other thing is these blobs don't care if their server drops tiers, there's blobs that will sit in t4 for two months and give no effort to scoring, they're only interested in farming kills. You're not really winning over them, you're just getting away from that particular farming, into another tier, which probably has groups doing the same thing there....

This is an each to their own item. We just hung out in T1 for 4 weeks. After relink why did we end back in T4 while linked to a T2 server for 4 weeks? No idea. The question was raised should we fall back to T4 or try and stay in T3. My answer was push to T2 since we were T1 and they were T2. That tells me something is off, let alone all the points I agree with you that there is no reason to win. There should always be reasons to push up and not fall back.

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

There's four things to do facing a blob, have your own blob of same strength(which sadly doesn't happen as often as you need), an effective cloud which frankly only mag pulls off consistently, give them no content(don't face them,  move maps, backcap stuff instead) so they get bored and move maps or log off, or log off yourself and do something else more interesting. 

5. Chase them and havoc them, which includes backcapping and picking them off as they go. Its a mix of your points. But seeing 50 port after being chased by 6 roamers overtime, its a ting.

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Problem with wvw these days is less people caring to play wvw as originally intended

Not wrong. WvW should create server buffs in both PvE and Spvp to link the modes.

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

It doesn't help that the vets berate, belittle, bully, don't teach, don't play with them in the first place

Understand your point, not sure how it could be applied unless they add more reasons to win. This might lead more vets to share versus get on tag and voice and you don't need to know the why.

13 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

get meta or gtfo

Agree each time I see this it makes me lmao! It tells me the map chat poster only plays limited classes and has no idea on how many builds are out there in reality.

 

 

[Mabi black.1824]

14 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

I agree that rewards is the only effective lever ANet still has over the WvW mode at this point. I don't think a large enough amount of players would be swayed/motivated by anything else enough to change how they actually play in any meaningful way.

I think in a team game mode, and specifically in our WVW game mode, if you want to drive participation you have to get out of our perpetual format and into a season format. At the end of the season, you present the prizes to all the teams that participated. Only in this way does winning or losing take on meaning.

We can argue endlessly about how valuable these prizes should be or how symbolic these prizes should be, but if you want to stimulate players you have to give a beginning and an end to the competition, you have to keep a historical record of the competitions, then rinse and repeat.

I also think that to do this requires a major overhaul of our scoring system. We would need a filter points/hours of play. We would need a better proportion of the points generated by structures to the points generated by kills. We would need weekly events that can give extra points to the teams. You have to find a formula that always gets an unpredictable ranking, it doesn't have to be trivial. After all, we're still talking about rewards, only I'm saying that rewards depend on an end-of-season leaderboard.

Edited March 11 by Mabi black.1824

[solemn.9608]

On 3/2/2024 at 10:58 PM, fuchsia.4369 said:

Boons every where boons boons boons. Doesnt matter if its 50 5 or 1 person the boon bar is full. Every other forum post is asking to do something with boons yet every balance goes the opposite direction and nerfs boon rip. The other posts ask to do something with cele yet those get ignored too. Where do these changes come from? Its not the forums, its not reddit, its not youtube, or anything else that the vast majority have access to. My guess is some private discord server. Does anet every take any feed back from the public? I've never seen zerg players, gvg players, roamers, gankers and duelers complaining about the same exact stuff and ive never seen a balance team ignore such glaring issues for so long. 

Same phenomenon occuring IRL. Might be the same thing, actually. Everyone is complaining about it IRL, people are actually quite UNIFIED not divided about the issues, we all want the same things removed, and the people who are in power do nothing and actively make the problems worse intentionally. It's almost like celestial and boonball is a political issue, and I find that kittening hilarious.

[kash.9213]

On 3/10/2024 at 3:23 AM, joneirikb.7506 said:

 Some of the points here, like Grim's suggestion about splitting up to actually fight efficiently for points, requires the playerbase to "in general" actually care about points. This is a problem of motivation, that we've struggled with for a long time, probably all the way back since after the tournaments but I don't remember exactly.

If you want the average player/groups of players to actually "fight smart" and thus spread out to take multiple objectives, you need to make them actually be motivated/care about points. There is unfortunately no other way to do this. As the system works right now, the majority of players are mostly "motivated" by rewards, and getting them as easy as possible, which is why we have a general meta that more and more resembles the Open World PVE Zergs that just runs things over, and if they fail an event they run off and come back another time when "the zerg doesn't suck and hold them back".

Players are inherently lazy (they're humans after all) and will always seek out the most reward for the least effort. That's the baseline for how to interact with the majority of players.

As such, I think the only way to do anything about this would be to link up personal rewards to points in some manner. The problem with this, is that the more you link rewards up to score, the more you get server stacking (less effort, more rewards!), so it needs to be small enough somehow. So it's a complicated fight against human nature.

I'm very guilty of not caring about points or winning match phases. I cared about general team performance or being thorough with objectives and standing in games like Starwars Galaxies or Age of Conan where things mattered in the actual game world or where all of our guilds or alliance's stuff was. The only thing I feel invested in on a WvW map is working on my build over time to cover my team while I vibe with the games combat and movement mechanics. I make enough gold to save up for skins or utilities I want and being okay knowing I won't get everything in the game so rewards that don't get me nearer to the skin or stats or whatever I want aren't really driving me much. I agree, it's a weird balancing act of finding a perpetual player driven system that won't devolve into a kill trading farm map. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

20 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

at least you can convince everyone else your opponent in chat is actually insane.

Sane? You rang? Who needs all those cards and marbles anyways, they slip away over time, it happens.

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I'm very guilty of not caring about points or winning match phases. I cared about general team performance or being thorough with objectives and standing in games like Starwars Galaxies or Age of Conan where things mattered in the actual game world or where all of our guilds or alliance's stuff was.

What was different there versus here? Didn't play either so not sure if it was a mechanic or something else. Warhammer gave access to special zones on 'winning' which helped encourage players to go for it was well as currency for better gear and rewards, plus had minor penalties to the losing side for a limited time.

[TheGrimm.5624]

GW2 has no reason to win. To each players it's only in their mind why to win. To me its the general game rule, Keep our stuff, take theirs, kill them and take as many as you can when you go. 

That's what makes reasons to win complicated.

Since there is nothing you get for winning it's in each players own mindset why should it matter. Mind you I don't get players that have favorite sport's team either. If you aren't in the game, why care. If you are playing sure, but if you aren't why get worked up versus just enjoy a good game. I think a lot of players don't see themselves as actually part of their team in game. Even when I roam, outnumbered or not I still see my server as my team so I do have skin in the game though a lot of it will not be seen or known. Every time a tag shows and they find a hole in wall they were going to attack, or defenses in place before they respond to a defense callout, or they find a keep that's already been weakened and drained of supply, that's a win in my book. Even though we have no reason to win.

I know the common answer is we don't want servers to stack. But they already did. Plus with the WR, they will be allowed to do so again in a limited fashion. So if that has happened and will again is that really an issue? Instead of worrying about that the question, then it boils down, what would encourage more to win. I think we have already accounted for the players that won't care about winning and the ones that want to win because. So that might be our 10 will always want to and 10 will never care about, so what sways the 80% in the middle? 

I am going to look at it from the Warhammer side, could it be any of the following (skipping the denial bits to the losing side):

• Rewards
• Currencies
• Achievements
• Access to special areas
• Titles
• Gear
• Weapons
• Resources
• Gains to your side (bonuses applied outside of WvW)
• Increased gold and magic find upon winning a skirm period till the next
• Tokens (WV or a WvW style of such that also has WvW related items)
• Standing (questionable in measurements for sure)
• Some form of bragging rights (though not sure what that would look like Warhammer had its own its own versions in banners and statues)

If you might consider yourself in the 80% in the middle, what would encourage you to want to win more?

 

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Sane? You rang? Who needs all those cards and marbles anyways, they slip away over time, it happens.

I thought that was just you being a warrior main.

We usually do well, but like almost all warrior mains you tend to pick fights with everyone on the map. It is good when they target me since I can't play the game and wear cele in small scale and you can do warrior things.  So unfortunately the best strategy is to target you and I WP.

Come to think about it this is why nobody roams with me. Like if I see Xen, I just drop symbols on them at max range so the symbols damage people that get pulled. It's just a very cheap way of getting participation.

Also btw getting more supply and will be back... next matchup.

Edited March 11 by ArchonWing.9480

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I thought that was just you being a warrior main.

We usually do well, but like almost all warrior mains you tend to pick fights with everyone on the map. It is good when they target me since I can't play the game and wear cele in small scale and you can do warrior things.  So unfortunately the best strategy is to target you and I WP.

Come to think about it this is why nobody roams with me. Like if I see Xen, I just drop symbols on them at max range so the symbols damage people that get pulled.

Also btw getting more supply and will be back... next matchup.

Don't worry to some on the forum I just zerg all the time for those sweet sweet rewards. Up to 6 broken spoons for the week so far.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 minute ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Don't worry to some on the forum I just zerg all the time for those sweet sweet rewards. Up to 6 broken spoons for the week so far.

Well that's the problem. They are jealous of the spoons.

[kash.9213]

43 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

What was different there versus here? Didn't play either so not sure if it was a mechanic or something else. Warhammer gave access to special zones on 'winning' which helped encourage players to go for it was well as currency for better gear and rewards, plus had minor penalties to the losing side for a limited time.

In SWG, we'd have shootouts in our own player city, or in the open world where we might need to unload our harvesters for crafting or whatever. 

In AoC, I got stuck with a guild who had one of the guild keep slots in the border maps where keep sieges happened, but it was also an open map when there wasn't a siege attack window. There were real stakes when we would be attacked by another guild or alliance and some serious drama because we got bonuses from owning that lot and it cost us a lot to build it up over time. 

Both were active in the actual game world where people could happen upon each other and you and your guild or sides influence could be seen and interacted with, or at least there was faction activity and pvp that happened in the world your character is supposed to live in. 

Edited March 11 by kash.9213

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

In SWG, we'd have shootouts in our own player city, or in the open world where we might need to unload our harvesters for crafting or whatever. 

In AoC, I got stuck with a guild who had one of the guild keep slots in the border maps where keep sieges happened, but it was also an open map when there wasn't a siege attack window. There were real stakes when we would be attacked by another guild or alliance and some serious drama because we got bonuses from owning that lot and it cost us a lot to build it up over time. 

Thanks. This ties into the same general idea of stakes in the game. Not sure the thought is clear in my mind yet so can't qualify the idea yet.

Doing some Destiny 2 this week since its the Guardian Games. They added a new part of the event that is a focus activity that runs for a couple of hours, every x number of hours. When active one of the 4 activities becomes the focus and they encourage the competition across the classes in that event and set thresholds for activities and levels of play for each class. Community has been knocking it out of the park and quite active based on their assumed thresholds. Its been fun but also making me ponder about similar concepts here but what form it would take. 

Edit: It's also been interesting to see how Helldivers 2 and their Game Master have been adding flair into the game reacting to players react to events. Just wondering about WvW events. Again, still pondering what that may look like so leaving this as footprint while pondering. Something along the lines that something has been T3 for over 6 hours, up the ante to take it. Again more thought needed there.

Edited March 11 by TheGrimm.5624
HD2 expansion note

[XenesisII.1540]

10 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

In SWG, we'd have shootouts in our own player city, or in the open world where we might need to unload our harvesters for crafting or whatever. 

In AoC, I got stuck with a guild who had one of the guild keep slots in the border maps where keep sieges happened, but it was also an open map when there wasn't a siege attack window. There were real stakes when we would be attacked by another guild or alliance and some serious drama because we got bonuses from owning that lot and it cost us a lot to build it up over time. 

Both were active in the actual game world where people could happen upon each other and you and your guild or sides influence could be seen and interacted with, or at least there was faction activity and pvp that happened in the world your character is supposed to live in. 

All this comes down to the players having a personal stake in the objective, that's the motivation to defend and protect. We "kinda" had that once upon a time when upgrades had to be done manually and paid for, and homebl mama's would take care upgrading and building defenses. Nowadays no one gives two kittens when it's all automated, you just have to make sure to flip camps whenever. Now you log on and it's whatever, we have a waypoint cool, we don't oh well, we're just here to farm bags anyways. Could have done something more with guild claims to be honest, but they went super lazy with that aspect, doesn't really matter who's name is on the objective, nothing unique about it and all you did was click a button to claim, no real consequences on losing it later cause you don't even have to be the ones to put in the tactics.

 

50 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Thanks. This ties into the same general idea of stakes in the game. Not sure the thought is clear in my mind yet so can't qualify the idea yet.

Doing some Destiny 2 this week since its the Guardian Games. They added a new part of the event that is a focus activity that runs for a couple of hours, every x number of hours. When active one of the 4 activities becomes the focus and they encourage the competition across the classes in that event and set thresholds for activities and levels of play for each class. Community has been knocking it out of the park and quite active based on their assumed thresholds. Its been fun but also making me ponder about similar concepts here but what form it would take. 

Edit: It's also been interesting to see how Helldivers 2 and their Game Master have been adding flair into the game reacting to players react to events. Just wondering about WvW events. Again, still pondering what that may look like so leaving this as footprint while pondering. Something along the lines that something has been T3 for over 6 hours, up the ante to take it. Again more thought needed there.

There's plenty of things they could have done for wvw, there's a ton of weekly monthly seasonal dynamic type events you could grab from dozens of other games to add some fun to wvw(or even their very own, how many times we've suggested fractal instabilities), but it's not really a question of what could be put into wvw, but anets interest on working on wvw in the first place, it's practically 0. 😕

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Thanks. This ties into the same general idea of stakes in the game. Not sure the thought is clear in my mind yet so can't qualify the idea yet.

Doing some Destiny 2 this week since its the Guardian Games. They added a new part of the event that is a focus activity that runs for a couple of hours, every x number of hours. When active one of the 4 activities becomes the focus and they encourage the competition across the classes in that event and set thresholds for activities and levels of play for each class. Community has been knocking it out of the park and quite active based on their assumed thresholds. Its been fun but also making me ponder about similar concepts here but what form it would take. 

Edit: It's also been interesting to see how Helldivers 2 and their Game Master have been adding flair into the game reacting to players react to events. Just wondering about WvW events. Again, still pondering what that may look like so leaving this as footprint while pondering. Something along the lines that something has been T3 for over 6 hours, up the ante to take it. Again more thought needed there.

The activities and events were one thing, but everything going down in a lived in game world was another thing. No one happens upon a WvW map unless they're trying to put together their Legendries or a guild mate brings them along or something. Whatever my guild and I do with whatever we claim for however long in WvW means nothing in the games world. 

Nearly every fight in those other games I had with other players was different from every other fight and most of them happened naturally. Nearly every fight in this game is the same and it's almost like you have to plan a play date with guilds or squads to get a nice big fight going for more than a minute. 

1 minute ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

All this comes down to the players having a personal stake in the objective, that's the motivation to defend and protect. We "kinda" had that once upon a time when upgrades had to be done manually and paid for, and homebl mama's would take care upgrading and building defenses. Nowadays no one gives two kittens when it's all automated, you just have to make sure to flip camps whenever. Now you log on and it's whatever, we have a waypoint cool, we don't oh well, we're just here to farm bags anyways. Could have done something more with guild claims to be honest, but they went super lazy with that aspect, doesn't really matter who's name is on the objective, nothing unique about it and all you did was click a button to claim, no real consequences on losing it later cause you don't even have to be the ones to put in the tactics.

There were some dedicated players then. That along with dropping the bonuses to people in the rest of the game world felt kind of obvious the effect it would have. Like watching a slow moving wreck. 

Edited March 11 by kash.9213

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I thought that was just you being a warrior main.

We usually do well, but like almost all warrior mains you tend to pick fights with everyone on the map. It is good when they target me since I can't play the game and wear cele in small scale and you can do warrior things.  So unfortunately the best strategy is to target you and I WP.

Come to think about it this is why nobody roams with me. Like if I see Xen, I just drop symbols on them at max range so the symbols damage people that get pulled. It's just a very cheap way of getting participation.

Also btw getting more supply and will be back... next matchup.

It's not how fast you can run away, but how fast can you trip up Grimm to get away. 🤭

Been a slow week for pulls, but got to feed you guys some last night. 🤭

 

[Widebody.5071]

8 hours ago, solemn.9608 said:

Same phenomenon occuring IRL. Might be the same thing, actually. Everyone is complaining about it IRL, people are actually quite UNIFIED not divided about the issues, we all want the same things removed, and the people who are in power do nothing and actively make the problems worse intentionally. It's almost like celestial and boonball is a political issue, and I find that kittening hilarious.

I agree with this 100%... It seems as if things too closely follows irl situations, with the angry advocators/protesters and their refusal to account for what others may desire. The symbolism is over the top crazy, it's like being in the vicinity of a bunch radical political zealots.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

It's not how fast you can run away, but how fast can you trip up Grimm to get away. 🤭

Been a slow week for pulls, but got to feed you guys some last night. 🤭

 

If only that portal on rifle could forcibly take allies away. 🤣

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

If only that portal on rifle could forcibly take allies away. 🤣

lol, my guild jokes me when we run together. Why did you jump them all!? At least the Warhammer players get it, once a Choppa, always a Choppa. Choppas gotta do what Choppas gotta do. Bad ideas are built in.

Its like asking Witch Elves not to pull and kill, its not really going to happen. Best a Choppa can do is watch for the pull and lend a hand and then try and help the Witch Elf get away while they see if they can score any of the remaining lol. If you never work on your 1 v 20 how will you practice. 🙂 

Had a newer guildie stop and ltao off when a bigger group was driven back when they assumed we were the tip of a larger group and assumed there was more behind. Each time the 'Look Big' command works, make me laugh all the more. 

[Lightsbane.9012]

On 3/4/2024 at 3:55 PM, SlateSloan.3654 said:

I have a new idea. What if there where no servers but guilds could form an alliance with each others?

you're funny.  Soon homie, soon.

[Widebody.5071]

There's not enough content in wvw. It just breaks my heart that so many people playing have to resort to following people around on their alts/scouts just to make content for themselves. It's so sad that they must resort to this type of gameplay in order to find enjoyment. Anet you must do something about this, because this just isn't fair to these guys, they deserve an enjoyable and pleasant experience while engaging with the game.

Yes, I feel that content scarcity have had an affect on wvw. Driving bored players who have nothing else to do but to play shadow friends.

 

Edited March 13 by Widebody.5071