The amount of filler content in story is out of hand

[Gehenna.3625]

On 5/11/2024 at 2:20 AM, Shiyo.3578 said:

FF14 is the worst MMO I've ever played.

In your opinion, of course. I've never played FFXIV because of, well, reasons. 

However, I am intrigued now by this statement. You say the worst you've ever played. So, that does make me wonder which other MMOs (besides GW and FFXIV) you have played?

[Zok.4956]

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

HoT and PoF design was not that. The gliding, mushrooms, wallows in HoT (and mounts in PoF) were not shortcuts. They were baseline. Only with them unlocked for their respective expansion you were getting to the ease of movement from core maps

You are of course right, some parts of the map could not be reached without the "shortcuts", so there were no shortcuts for those parts of the map back then. But those were only very few places.

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Creating solutions for problems that would not exist without those solutions is an approach i heavily dislike.

Nearly every game mechanic is like this. 😉Otherwise there would be no progress or challenge in the game. 

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

where baseline consists not only of current expansion movement masteries, but also those from all previous content. Including mounts that originally were supposed to be only optional.

I wouldn't call them "baseline". In later maps, Anet almost always tried to incorporate alternative paths/shortcuts into the maps, so that both some of the Hot/S3 and some of the PoF/S4 masteries could be used to make map traveling easier.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

You are of course right, some parts of the map could not be reached without the "shortcuts", so there were no shortcuts for those parts of the map back then. But those were only very few places.

That's not what i had in mind. My point is that HoT/PoF maps were designed for players with all movement masteries from that expansion unlocked. It's not the case of masteries making it easier for you (shortcuts), it's a case of not having masteries making it harder (or even impossible in some cases).

7 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Nearly every game mechanic is like this. 😉Otherwise there would be no progress or challenge in the game.

I see no challenge here. Only grind. And the "progress" you speak of is meant to get you to point zero from a place where you got pushed back due to new design.

7 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

I wouldn't call them "baseline". In later maps, Anet almost always tried to incorporate alternative paths/shortcuts into the maps, so that both some of the Hot/S3 and some of the PoF/S4 masteries could be used to make map traveling easier.

Let me put it that way: SotO maps are more annoying to traverse than core ones even with full movement masteries from all the content. And if you want to understand what i mean, please do try to traverse them without a flyer and updraft/leyline mastery of any kind (either from HoT gliding track, or from SotO skyscale mastery)

[Solvar.7953]

For SotO, I fairly quickly realized that there were parts of the map which I just wasn't going to get to without the new masteries, so didn't even try.  Though I suppose that was also true in previous expansions (springer needed for some PoF maps, gliding masteries in HoT, etc).

The SotO maps really seem to be skyscale only maps - folks will use the springers for the breakbar during rift events, but the design or the maps is such that using anything other than the skyscale is not very useful.  Each of the floating bastions in Amnytas is small enough there really isn't much reason to switch to a raptor, and switching to a beetle has the real danger of just flying off one of them.  Where as with core maps, skyscale can be useful, but the beetle/raptor is useful if needing to travel long distances

[Zok.4956]

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's not what i had in mind. My point is that HoT/PoF maps were designed for players with all movement masteries from that expansion unlocked. It's not the case of masteries making it easier for you (shortcuts), it's a case of not having masteries making it harder (or even impossible in some cases).

Maybe my wording “shortcuts” wasn’t the best/accurate for what I meant. Sure, they are in part also kind of "roadblocks". But I seem to remember that I was able to reach many (not all) places via non-obvious detours. Especially in HoT, there were almost always alternative ways to reach a position with different masteries. You have to play the content (and get mastery points and XP) to be able to remove some roadblocks (and enable shortcuts) for map travelling.

 

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I see no challenge here. Only grind. And the "progress" you speak of is meant to get you to point zero from a place where you got pushed back due to new design.

Whether someone sees something in the game as a grind or not is subjective. If you see it as a grind, I have to accept that as an opinion, even if I don't see it as a grind. The progression I'm talking about means horizontal progression with masteries instead of the vertical progression of other games with simply an increased maximum level.

 

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Let me put it that way: SotO maps are more annoying to traverse than core ones even with full movement masteries from all the content.

I agree. Especially the Skywatch Archipelago map. It was somehow fun, but also annoying. 

 

13 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And if you want to understand what i mean, please do try to traverse them without a flyer and updraft/leyline mastery of any kind (either from HoT gliding track, or from SotO skyscale mastery)

The Skyscale is the featured mount of the expansion that you can get in the expansion. The maps were of course specifically built for Skyscale and Skyscale is required in some places. But because many players already have a Skyscale, it was of course a balancing act. I don't want to defend the decisions of the devs. It was their decisions to do it that way, I would probably have solved it differently.

 

[ProtoGunner.4953]

On 5/11/2024 at 4:23 AM, Inssengrimm.7924 said:

And yet, in reality, is the one of the best MMORPG at the moment. 
If XIV is the worse, you might be playing the wrong genre for you, give fornite or valorant a go. 

Why always these stupid service games. There is God of War, Final Fantasy 16, Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth, Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom and many many many absolutely great/stunning single player games out there. And this is what I did since GW2 is since after EoD a borefest (I liked EoD a lot though).

[Ashen.2907]

4 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

The progression I'm talking about means horizontal progression with masteries instead of the vertical progression of other games with simply an increased maximum level.

 

Is there really all that much of a difference between challenges that you need to overcome by increasing your horizontal progression mechanics and challenges that you need to overcome by increasing your level? 

[Zok.4956]

3 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Is there really all that much of a difference between challenges that you need to overcome by increasing your horizontal progression mechanics and challenges that you need to overcome by increasing your level? 

The big difference is that a higher max level (as it usually is in other games) usually invalidates all the gear that you have (hardly) earned. And then you have to grind for new gear for the higher level. 

And the original idea of the masteries was that they only apply in the corresponding maps of the expansion, but do not influence or trivialize other maps. However, Anet deviated from this early on in HoT at the player's request (with gliding) and later on with other masteries.

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

The big difference is that a higher max level (as it usually is in other games) usually invalidates all the gear that you have (hardly) earned. And then you have to grind for new gear for the higher level. 

And the original idea of the masteries was that they only apply in the corresponding maps of the expansion, but do not influence or trivialize other maps. However, Anet deviated from this early on in HoT at the player's request (with gliding) and later on with other masteries.

Understood. But, again, increasing opponent stats in order to require players to get new levels and gear to be able to compete is not that dissimilar to increasing map navigation demands in order to require players to get new levels (of mastery) in order to compete.

I get that it isnt exactly the same but in both cases you are leveling up in order to complete new content challenges that would be difficult, or even impossible, without the new "levels". Rendering my gear obsolete is annoying, but so to  is doing the same to my existing/preferred mobility.

[Zok.4956]

50 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Understood. But, again, increasing opponent stats in order to require players to get new levels and gear to be able to compete is not that dissimilar to increasing map navigation demands in order to require players to get new levels (of mastery) in order to compete.

Well, it's an MMORPG after all and part of the progression is that you have to play some content for a while in order to unlock things. 

The trick is to make it entertaining for (most) players and to integrate it naturally into the flow of the game. And that's where Anet sometimes falls short. Which, in a way, is the topic of this thread.

Edited May 14 by Zok.4956

[Astralporing.1957]

53 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Well, it's an MMORPG after all and part of the progression is that you have to play some content for a while in order to unlock things. 

The trick is to make it entertaining for (most) players and to integrate it naturally into the flow of the game. And that's where Anet sometimes falls short. Which, in a way, is the topic of this thread.

I think that calling regaining lost ground "progression" is missing the whole point about why a lot of players aren't very fond of this kind of approach. You do not "progress" if after all that moving forward you end up in pretty much the same place you were before.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

But you don’t. Once I learnt gliding it didn’t just make the HoT maps easier to navigate, it was useful on core maps too. Similarly with mounts (arguably too much with sky scale letting people skip the fun parts of exploration).

There are other examples where the masteries are purely gate keepers for the new story and content but tbh as others have said, most players want some sense of progression and achievement. Most GW2 players also don’t want vertical gear grind and the mastery system is a good alternative.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

But you don’t. Once I learnt gliding it didn’t just make the HoT maps easier to navigate, it was useful on core maps too. Similarly with mounts (arguably too much with sky scale letting people skip the fun parts of exploration).

There are other examples where the masteries are purely gate keepers for the new story and content but tbh as others have said, most players want some sense of progression and achievement. Most GW2 players also don’t want vertical gear grind and the mastery system is a good alternative.

And yet, as i have already mentioned, the "progression" we've got is that new maps are more difficult to navigate than core maps were before this progression started.

[Gehenna.3625]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And yet, as i have already mentioned, the "progression" we've got is that new maps are more difficult to navigate than core maps were before this progression started.

New maps require new types of progression. That seems clear to me. In a gear treadmill game this is the same: new content requires new and better gear because there are harder challenges that you can't beat with your current gear.

Like now, we can use updrafs and leylines with our skyscales for example, which make the new maps a lot easier to navigate and existing maps even easier. But yeah, you do have to do this progression first before you can use these options. 

Look at IBS. Mounts could be shot down easily with the sniper ranges being, well, crazy. What did we get for progression: mount stealth. First you run into the issue, then you work at the progression that makes it easier and then happy days. And also that is useable for older maps. I don't see the issue with that.

Edited May 15 by Gehenna.3625

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

New maps require new types of progression. That seems clear to me. In a gear treadmill game this is the same: new content requires new and better gear because there are harder challenges that you can't beat with your current gear.

Like now, we can use updrafs and leylines with our skyscales for example, which make the new maps a lot easier to navigate and existing maps even easier. But yeah, you do have to do this progression first before you can use these options. 

Look at IBS. Mounts could be shot down easily with the sniper ranges being, well, crazy. What did we get for progression: mount stealth. First you run into the issue, then you work at the progression that makes it easier and then happy days. And also that is useable for older maps. I don't see the issue with that.

Again, you don't understand me. There's no progression if at the end you end up further behind than when you started. And yes, i don't see gear treadmills as progression either, as in those you also never actually move forward, you are just putting a ton of effort in order to stay in place. There's a reason we call them "hamster wheels".

[Gehenna.3625]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Again, you don't understand me. There's no progression if at the end you end up further behind than when you started. And yes, i don't see gear treadmills as progression either, as in those you also never actually move forward, you are just putting a ton of effort in order to stay in place. There's a reason we call them "hamster wheels".

Well, I think you're wielding an unusual definition of progression when it comes to MMOs at least. In the end old content becomes easier and new content needs to be challenging or it'll get boring. If you advocate boring because that's progression, well, then I'm against progression. The analogy of treadmills or hamster wheels isn't that perfect of an analogy but refers more to how it feels to some people. It really depends on what the new challenges are and how well they are implemented.

Back to GW2. So with mounts there is actual progression in the sense that you can do more and more with mounts, like stealth and using ley lines etc. which you couldn't do before which is progression in and of itself. The fact that new maps take those in account doesn't change that. However, new maps need to take the new abilities into account because otherwise they would be boring af.

So if you want to play semantics, go ahead. I just look at the things I can do with mounts that I couldn't do before and I expect Anet to make the new maps in a way that they're not boring. If you call that lack of progress feel free.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Again, you don't understand me. There's no progression if at the end you end up further behind than when you started. And yes, i don't see gear treadmills as progression either, as in those you also never actually move forward, you are just putting a ton of effort in order to stay in place. There's a reason we call them "hamster wheels".

It’s clear as mud what you want. My best guess is that you want to gain new abilities or power without the new game content (or any content) requiring you to use the new abilities or content?

But what is the point in that?

You have defined “progression” as meaning gaining unnecessary things. Yeah, if that is your definition then it’s no surprise that Anet aren’t building their expansions to suit you because most people would regard that as pointless.

[DoomNexus.5324]

On 5/8/2024 at 8:19 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

I did mention more than once in the "we want mounts" threads that mount intoduction will negatively impact map design (and map movement) for anyone not using them. This was my biggest beef with mounts from the very beginning - and even though their design turned out to be way better than i originally expected, that part happened exactly as predicted. Less waypoints, more convoluted terrain, and now flat out requiring skyscale in order to be able to get from any point A to B in reasonable time.

Not a fan of that at all.

I agree on how it turned out but I'd argue that this is not because we got mounts but because Anet tries to accomodate for them and imo even overshoots the target. I'd prefer the old map style where you can get around on foot just fine and mounts only speed up getting around or let you get to hard to reach places easier. That's why people wanted mounts in the first place. They are only fun if they make travelling easier but if the maps are designed accordingly it cancels out the advantage they bring - might as well just not have mounts and keep the old map style.
And as I said, imo Anet overdoes it. Even with a fully trained skyscale navigating around in soto is way worse than being on foot in basically every old map.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I agree on how it turned out but I'd argue that this is not because we got mounts but because Anet tries to accomodate for them

Yes, that's precisely what my point was - that introduction of mounts would hange new map design, because Anet would adjust for their existence. And they did adjust, and that change, for me, was for the worse.