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Let Bladesworn Use Weapon Burst While Equipped


Yerlock.4678

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i've been saying this long ago

core burst skill IS balanced as part of warrior weapon kit, not class mechanic, without core burst entire warrior weapon kit suck big time, unfun and unfluid.

like how initiative is part of thief weapon kit, steal is class specialization mechanic.

specialization mechanic is berserk mode, full counter, dragon trigger

core warrior still lacks a f2 and bladesworn lacks f1 core burst

the reason why they gave core f1 back to berserker, because it is so crucial, we all forgot how stupid berserker played without core f1, it's almost like they didn't learn from berserker.

they got no guide lines and no standards and no vision for class related content whats so ever.

berserker now is the best warrior spec because it is the most complete warrior spec,

it used to be spellbreaker, but it has watered down core burst, berserker used to be the shittiest warrior spec to play when it didnt have core burst skill.

Edited by Lighter.5631
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22 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

the reason why they gave core f1 back to berserker, because it is so crucial, we all forgot how stupid berserker played without core f1, it's almost like they didn't learn from berserker

The Nov 2023 patch made it largely irrelevant (build-dependent) since you can get back into Berserk mode in 8s quite easily, and it's easier than ever to maintain Berserk. That said, having the option of using F1 if you're in a crunch is still a nice-to-have rather than the need-to-have previously.

Agreed Bladesworn mechanically (and traits-wise) needs a solid review and rework

  • PvE most viable builds devote everything to supporting Dragon Slash; HealAlacSworn is only viable because it's not expected to do any damage; no condi builds
  • PvP change to unyielding dragon heavily damaged its viability in PvP, and it was difficult to use before then
  • WvW why would you put yourself through this? Being rooted in WvW is basically a death sentence
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1 hour ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

The Nov 2023 patch made it largely irrelevant (build-dependent) since you can get back into Berserk mode in 8s quite easily, and it's easier than ever to maintain Berserk. That said, having the option of using F1 if you're in a crunch is still a nice-to-have rather than the need-to-have previously.

Agreed Bladesworn mechanically (and traits-wise) needs a solid review and rework

  • PvE most viable builds devote everything to supporting Dragon Slash; HealAlacSworn is only viable because it's not expected to do any damage; no condi builds
  • PvP change to unyielding dragon heavily damaged its viability in PvP, and it was difficult to use before then
  • WvW why would you put yourself through this? Being rooted in WvW is basically a death sentence

WvW, I've seen some slick use of Bladesworn and used it myself. But the delay they put in Boost clipped its mobility. One can still adapt to the current but it's not as reactionary as it was, making something that was tough to pull off feel more punished. I don't want a rework, just what we had several major patches ago.

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On 3/11/2024 at 12:45 PM, Leo G.4501 said:

WvW, I've seen some slick use of Bladesworn and used it myself. But the delay they put in Boost clipped its mobility. One can still adapt to the current but it's not as reactionary as it was, making something that was tough to pull off feel more punished. I don't want a rework, just what we had several major patches ago.

The removal of the stun on Unyielding Dragon not only hurt Bladesworn's presence in PvP in general, but also severely damaged any build diversity for the Elite Specialization because previously you could functionally use Discipline/Strength/Bladesworn due in large part to the Stun being a vital utility tool for disengaging and interrupting, but removing that essentially necessitated foregoing Discipline in favor of Defense because the overbearing sustain is all it has left and even that build isn't doing so hot anymore.

ANet yet again took the exact wrong path to reigning something in. Color me not surprised.

Don't worry, they'll finally go back and address it after 6 years much like they did with Full Counter activating burst related traits when FC was triggered instead of on hit which was basically reiterated on this forum about a few hundred times as to why Spellbreaker sustain was so easy maintain, as well as giving Mirage their second dodge back after removing it because they finally got a clue and made it so the Mirage can't use Mirage Cloak while CC'd anymore because that definitely wasn't suggested to them again about a few hundred times on the forums at the time.

There are countless other examples of there being feedback from the community that is a genuine solution to these sorts of mechanic issues that pop up in the game, ANet literally does everything else other than that, then they get a clue several years later and implement the changes suggested by community feedback after reverting all of their bonkers and nonsensical other "solutions". Trend. This is called a trend.

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9 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

The removal of the stun on Unyielding Dragon not only hurt Bladesworn's presence in PvP in general, but also severely damaged any build diversity for the Elite Specialization because previously you could functionally use Discipline/Strength/Bladesworn due in large part to the Stun being a vital utility tool for disengaging and interrupting, but removing that essentially necessitated foregoing Discipline in favor of Defense because the overbearing sustain is all it has left and even that build isn't doing so hot anymore.

ANet yet again took the exact wrong path to reigning something in. Color me not surprised.

Don't worry, they'll finally go back and address it after 6 years much like they did with Full Counter activating burst related traits when FC was triggered instead of on hit which was basically reiterated on this forum about a few hundred times as to why Spellbreaker sustain was so easy maintain, as well as giving Mirage their second dodge back after removing it because they finally got a clue and made it so the Mirage can't use Mirage Cloak while CC'd anymore because that definitely wasn't suggested to them again about a few hundred times on the forums at the time.

There are countless other examples of there being feedback from the community that is a genuine solution to these sorts of mechanic issues that pop up in the game, ANet literally does everything else other than that, then they get a clue several years later and implement the changes suggested by community feedback after reverting all of their bonkers and nonsensical other "solutions". Trend. This is called a trend.

It's been a minute since I played Mirage but did they still make it so you can't use Mirage Cloak while immobilized? That is a nonsense change as the absolute functionality of Mirage's dodge is that you can use it while not moving. I understand removing its functionality while CC'ed but they need to change that immobilized clause.

I don't often do PvP or WvW but when I do I like using the stuff I was having fun with in PvE. When I used BS in WvW, I tended toward Strength/Def as I am a deviant. I think they could go a long way in removing the cooldown on Unsheathe/sheathe (or cutting it down to, like 3sec) to cut that dependence on Discipline. Overall, I'm not a huge fan of just giving BS core bursts. It a boring change. I'd rather have nothing than boring changes because, like PseudoOAlias mentioned in his threads, it's likely the cause of the reductions in the overall spec to make room for it and that's just lame.

Don't give me core bursts, give me augmented Dragon Trigger or Dragon Slash based on my equipped weapon. Instead of removing the fun parts like the delay on boost, increase the fun and reduce the numbers. Make the spec cerebrally fun/engaging instead of cerebrally frustrating/punishing.

Now I feel like I'm just ranting tho. My personal issue with BS and GW2 as a whole is they have boasted a sort of "drop it and come back later" mentality which I always come back to BUT I come back more and more frustrated because they remove, delete, Thanos snap specs and replace them with lamer ones that numerically fit the meta ranks yet still suck.

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Bladesworn fails because it's overcomplicated specialization for profession focused on simplicity. I'd simply remove the gunsaber nonsense altogether, let us use weapon combo we want.

THEN, replace dragon trigger skill bar with a simple, adrenaline based, single burst mechanic, like on core warrior, that does exactly what Dragon Trigger slash skills do: Once you enter it it, the longer you wait, the more damage you do. So similarly to (older) berserker, you'd press F1 once to start charging Dragon Slash, and F1 again to release it at desired charge level.

Then, the grandmaster trait of Bladesworn traitline would simply decide which Dragon Slash the burst skill is, if its Force, Boost or Reach, and provide some buff on top:

  • For Force, some melee combat based buff, since it's melee skill.
  • For Boost, some mobility based buff, since it's a mobility skill.
  • For Reach, some ranged combat based buff, since Reach is ranged skill.

It would be simple. It would be fun to play, and it would work together with current burst focused traits much better than the whole flow nonsense.

Edited by SpaceMarine.1836
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Also, the problem with having regular burst skill available to elite specs is that it's no longer a tradeoff. Warrior is currently worst off in this. There's simply no point playing core warrior compared to berserker because berserker simply gets everything core warrior has + more on top. Elite specs should open up a new play style through some tradeoff, but in some cases, elite specs simply kill the core class.

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1 hour ago, SpaceMarine.1836 said:

Also, the problem with having regular burst skill available to elite specs is that it's no longer a tradeoff. Warrior is currently worst off in this. There's simply no point playing core warrior compared to berserker because berserker simply gets everything core warrior has + more on top. Elite specs should open up a new play style through some tradeoff, but in some cases, elite specs simply kill the core class.

They introduced tradeoffs, then realized they weren't working and began removing them.

What is needed instead is to give core warrior an F2. The form of that F2 is debated frequently though.

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@gmmg.9210 my Personal idea for Bladesworn would be. . Make a "second burst skill" Kind of Type. 

 

In the end you will need to fill something (maybe also bullets) to be able to use this second burst skill. So it will be a seperate Adrenaline mechanic Style. Once you fill the bar you will be able to use it. The burst skill itself is  Animation wise the Same as the gunsaber burst skill 2 (without the Long Cast time. Mechanic wise it will Rush though the targed and Stop near it on a 900 range. (Just like Rush from greatsword). 

In the end it will Playstyle wise the same as before but without being locked into gunsaber mode and with still 2 weaponssets. ^^ i think this kind of Style would fit good and would be way less clunky to Play xd

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Mkay, here is what I would do:

  • F1 becomes Tier 1 Bursts of the equipped weapon.
  • F2 becomes Dragon Slash. Dragon Slash is changed based on which GM trait you choose. CD is 6s. Dragon Slash consumes Bullets charged by Dragon Trigger. Dragon Slash can be used outside of Dragon Trigger.
  • F3 becomes Triggerguard.
  • F4 becomes Flicker Step.
  • F5 enters Dragon Trigger. Dragon Trigger by default grants 2 stacks of stability for 2s. Dragon Trigger can be canceled by moving and charges bullets as it does now. Bullets are not lost once charged and are expended by using Dragon Slash.
  • Gunsaber becomes the elite Armament and functions like a weapon kit.
  • Flow does not change, F1 consumes 10 Flow per use and only ever counts as a Tier 1 burst. Flow is not lost upon using F1. Flow no longer decays out of combat.
  • Immortal Dragon alters Dragon Slash to Dragon Slash -- Reach in addition to its current effects.
  • Unyielding Dragon alters Dragon Slash to Dragon Slash -- Force in addition to its current effects (Bladesworns who have not unlocked the GM tier yet have a version of Dragon Slash -- Force with a lower coefficient). 
  • Daring Dragon alters Dragon Slash to Dragon Slash -- Boost and regains its original functionality. Alacrity will be moved to Spellbreaker's Slow Counter and activate upon entering Full Counter or hitting with a Burst skill.
  • Weapon swap is returned to Bladesworn.

This lets BSW charge their big attack for use on demand, and the dangerous self root can be entered as needed as bullets can be charged piecemeal when safe/opportune to do so without fear of the charges being lost. Core bursts and weapon swap are returned for more versatility. The gameplay style that DD had that people loved is returned. A short range teleport and an aegis are available on all weapon sets. The big flashy skill instead becomes a choice based on GM trait. If that rubs people the wrong way, then we could squeeze them in on F2-F4 with TG, FS, and DT moved to F5-F7, but I think leaving it as 1 Dragon Slash that you customize via the GM trait would be better for balance considering the other changes.

 

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12 hours ago, SpaceMarine.1836 said:

Bladesworn fails because it's overcomplicated specialization for profession focused on simplicity. I'd simply remove the gunsaber nonsense altogether, let us use weapon combo we want.

THEN, replace dragon trigger skill bar with a simple, adrenaline based, single burst mechanic, like on core warrior, that does exactly what Dragon Trigger slash skills do: Once you enter it it, the longer you wait, the more damage you do. So similarly to (older) berserker, you'd press F1 once to start charging Dragon Slash, and F1 again to release it at desired charge level.

Then, the grandmaster trait of Bladesworn traitline would simply decide which Dragon Slash the burst skill is, if its Force, Boost or Reach, and provide some buff on top:

  • For Force, some melee combat based buff, since it's melee skill.
  • For Boost, some mobility based buff, since it's a mobility skill.
  • For Reach, some ranged combat based buff, since Reach is ranged skill.

It would be simple. It would be fun to play, and it would work together with current burst focused traits much better than the whole flow nonsense.

I would not go as far as completely scrapping the not-a-sabre. But it should be a Shroud-like mechanic using Adrenaline as it's resource, similar to Druid or Harmbinger.

Since it'd use Adrenaline. the Flow and the Charge mechanic get removed. With no Charges, Artillery Slash can be removed as well.  Cyclone Trigger becomes the new #3 ability and Break Step becomes the new #4 ability

Dragon Slash Whiff then gets turned into the new #5 ability, which can get modified via traits. Dragon Slash Whiff would consume all Adrenaline and trigger Burst traits.

Of course, this iteration of Junksworn would have access to weapon swap.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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On 3/11/2024 at 11:06 AM, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

The Nov 2023 patch made it largely irrelevant (build-dependent) since you can get back into Berserk mode in 8s quite easily, and it's easier than ever to maintain Berserk. That said, having the option of using F1 if you're in a crunch is still a nice-to-have rather than the need-to-have previously.

without core burst, small scale pvp, spvp condi berserker would gone from A tier straight to E tier, and power berserker would gone from D tier to lesser ranger pet tier

also disregard of effectiveness, the fluidity of the gameplay is also hugely improved, in open world specially, no matter how sick berserk is, 8 seconds of 50% core war gameplay is completely trash gameplay

Edited by Lighter.5631
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12 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They introduced tradeoffs, then realized they weren't working and began removing them.

What is needed instead is to give core warrior an F2. The form of that F2 is debated frequently though.

add a f2 to core war that would be the trade off

like they added f2 to core rev, because they can't remove utility swap as trade off, because rev's kit is built upon having utility swap, just like warrior's weapon kit is built upon their respective burst skills, just like they can't remove initiative for trade off, because thief kit is built upon initiative.

core war needs the f2, if people really want "trade off", because clearly core war is lacking stuff to trade off

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12 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They introduced tradeoffs, then realized they weren't working and began removing them.

What is needed instead is to give core warrior an F2. The form of that F2 is debated frequently though.

I still love the f2 idea. Idk what it would be, but giving core something measurable so it could compete with sb's and zerkers would go a long way imo.

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40 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

I still love the f2 idea. Idk what it would be, but giving core something measurable so it could compete with sb's and zerkers would go a long way imo.

It could be a second burst using the OH or second 2H burst, it could also be a none burst to gain adrenaline and boons based on the current adrenaline level with traits adding more boons based on using F2, that gives room to put alacrity on F2 use by Spellbreaker. Things like AH and CI can then be ported to using F2 rather than hitting with a burst. For Berserker that would be entering/leaving Berserk Mode, with the exit now made baseline, and for BSW that would be entering DT currently, but that spec needs a massive rework anyway.

F2: Enrage: Enrage grants 10 adrenaline on use. Gain 2 might for 5s for each tier of adrenaline held when this skill is activated. 10s CD, no cast time. 0 adrenaline is 2 might, T3 totals to 8 stacks.

Burst Mastery: Enrage grants 2s of quickness per tier and an extra 10 adrenaline on use.

Versatile Power: This now reduces the CD of Enrage.

Furious Busts: Enrage now grants Fury for 3s per tier of adrenaline.

Soldier's Comfort: Enrage now grants protection for 2s in an AoE per tier of adrenaline and heals for 900 HP with 0.2 scaling, with an extra 0.2 scaling per tier in an AoE. This healing is halved in competitive modes.

Building Momentum: This now also causes Enrage to grant 10 endurance per tier of adrenaline.

AH and CI both grant their effects when using F2 rather than F1.

Slow Counter: This now causes Full Counter to grant 6s of Alacrity on use in PvE in an AoE. Not sure what it should be in PvP/WvW.

A lot of design space opens up with a new F2.

Edited by Lan Deathrider.5910
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2 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

add a f2 to core war that would be the trade off

like they added f2 to core rev, because they can't remove utility swap as trade off, because rev's kit is built upon having utility swap, just like warrior's weapon kit is built upon their respective burst skills, just like they can't remove initiative for trade off, because thief kit is built upon initiative.

core war needs the f2, if people really want "trade off", because clearly core war is lacking stuff to trade off

Anything that is on the profession mechanic bar is up for grabs. The especs change the profession mechanic skills. Anything beyond that is uncalled for. BSW losing weapon swap is one of those acknowledged tradeoffs that haven't been done away with yet.

But yeah, Warrior's core mechanic is too simple and limited which leads to the especs feeling like Warrior plus. I gave an example of what can be done with a potential F2 above, but it's a wide open design space. I know there is a desire for OH bursts, but unless Anet adds nice ways to gain adrenaline in all traitlines that will just lead to core being starved for adrenaline on some sets. Having a non burst skill as F2 would work though. It could be anything, but as a way to gain adrenaline and activate some traits on using it, that is doable and simple enough for warrior's theme.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It could be a second burst using the OH or second 2H burst, it could also be a none burst to gain adrenaline and boons based on the current adrenaline level with traits adding more boons based on using F2, that gives room to put alacrity on F2 use by Spellbreaker. Things like AH and CI can then be ported to using F2 rather than hitting with a burst. For Berserker that would be entering/leaving Berserk Mode, with the exit now made baseline, and for BSW that would be entering DT currently, but that spec needs a massive rework anyway.

F2: Enrage: Enrage grants 10 adrenaline on use. Gain 2 might for 5s for each tier of adrenaline held when this skill is activated. 10s CD, no cast time. 0 adrenaline is 2 might, T3 totals to 8 stacks.

Burst Mastery: Enrage grants 2s of quickness per tier and an extra 10 adrenaline on use.

Versatile Power: This now reduces the CD of Enrage.

Furious Busts: Enrage now grants Fury for 3s per tier of adrenaline.

Soldier's Comfort: Enrage now grants protection for 2s in an AoE per tier of adrenaline and heals for 900 HP with 0.2 scaling, with an extra 0.2 scaling per tier in an AoE. This healing is halved in competitive modes.

Building Momentum: This now also causes Enrage to grant 10 endurance per tier of adrenaline.

AH and CI both grant their effects when using F2 rather than F1.

Slow Counter: This now causes Full Counter to grant 6s of Alacrity on use in PvE in an AoE. Not sure what it should be in PvP/WvW.

A lot of design space opens up with a new F2.

I was thinking maybe a defensive style burst for two handed weapons? So gs f2 could be a block similar to the ranger gs block for example, hammer maybe grants stab or something, etc. and OH would simply have its own burst. 

The weird thing is the way it works now it uses up all the adrenaline even at 3 bars. So something would need to change there for it to make sense mechanically or there wouldn't be enough adrenaline for it to synergize too well imo. Maybe just giving some core warrior weapons more additional adrenaline (similar to staff) so that it flows much better and they could use f1 skills and f2 for more defensive style. The combat would kind of flow in such a way that if a warrior sees an opening he could use f1 to attack with burst, and f2 to be more defensive. 

Spb has this idea already but it's taken to an extreme with mitigating dmg entirely and cc. This wouldn't be so extreme in that regard, but could offer up different attacks or defensive abilities to combo more and allow more synergy with the weapon. Your idea is fine also though. I just like the fighter game style of timing attacks and defensives for more reactive gameplay.

Edited by gmmg.9210
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1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It could be a second burst using the OH or second 2H burst, it could also be a none burst to gain adrenaline and boons based on the current adrenaline level with traits adding more boons based on using F2, that gives room to put alacrity on F2 use by Spellbreaker.

Core F2 should be a medium cooldown skill (like 15sec) with a quad function:

A.] When used in combat, spend a little adrenaline to get a moderate speed boost without swiftness or a minor speed boost that stacks with swiftness.

B.] When used out of combat, spends all adrenaline to give a unique buff per strikes of adrenaline that drastically decreases cooldowns if you have skills on cooldown (duration ticks down faster while skills are on cooldown) OR upon entering combat, instantly expires but gives you a burst of adrenaline.

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9 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Core F2 should be a medium cooldown skill (like 15sec) with a quad function:

A.] When used in combat, spend a little adrenaline to get a moderate speed boost without swiftness or a minor speed boost that stacks with swiftness.

We have things like Aggressive Onslaught for that though.

9 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

B.] When used out of combat, spends all adrenaline to give a unique buff per strikes of adrenaline that drastically decreases cooldowns if you have skills on cooldown (duration ticks down faster while skills are on cooldown) OR upon entering combat, instantly expires but gives you a burst of adrenaline.

Doing A and B seems weird to me. Why not have it be: press button get adrenaline and boons?

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11 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

We have things like Aggressive Onslaught for that though.

Doing A and B seems weird to me. Why not have it be: press button get adrenaline and boons?

Ngl, I always forget about traits I hardly use. If I'm strength, I typically go MMR or BP. Still, the purpose of the idea is to have a multi-faceted tool aimed to either press the charge OR get to the next fight fresh and fit.

If they went this route to give core a kind of "Adrenaline Regulating" F2, they could do some other stuff with traits that give alternate uses, either adding to the F2 (boons, damage/effects to its version of Attack of opportunity, varied interactions) or creating variation of trait triggers so some will trigger on adrenaline spent in tandem with other stuff like bursts used and bursts connecting. 

As for why not be press button get adrenaline and boons? No reason. I just like to vary my suggestions from being just more boons all the time. Having unique self-effects or target effects stops them from being as easily countered but I'm not that versed in orchestrating counterplay in my suggestions besides the obvious. That and it was a past idea from another thread about adrenaline expiration out of combat. Some suggested just making adrenaline decay slower or not at all, I suggested a click F2 that "carried" your adrenaline and can trigger trait effects.

I'm not a balance guy, I just like making up ideas lol

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