Why does Icerazor only immobilize on the final hit?

[Shagie.7612]

Anyone who had slow enough reactions to get punished by the first hit deserves the immob, but with this you have time between the potential cast timer, start up, and the first and second hit to get your dodge off and avoid it.

That's pretty lame. It should put up a stack on each of the 3 hits, or it should be a significantly longer duration. Alternatively, make it additionally immobilize on cast because GOOD LORD YOU CAN'T PROTECT YOURSELF STILL PLEASE I JUST WANNA HAVE A GHOST ARMY AND HAVE FUN IN PVP WITHOUT FEELING MISERABLE
Literally no other major rework landed this poorly. I don't understand.

Additionally, why does each ghost have a different time before their attacks go off? It's around a 1s delay on Icerazor from the time it comes out, but it's closer to 1.5s later on Darkrazor and Razorclaw. I haven't actually recorded it and counted the actual time, just rough stopwatch checking but it's long enough that summoning Darkrazor/Razorclaw first and using Band Together on Icerazor makes Icerazor's attacks land first.

e: some other things
The chill on the enhanced cast is 3x stacks. Ranger Spirits are all consistent.

Edited April 9 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

The first hit should do more of these important effects yes.

 

Also for Darkrazor's Daring daze, it should be instant not the little waiting

[Jobber.6348]

It's still hilarious that the Summons have a small delay on summon before they actually do their "cast animation" and land the attack. 

Somehow Summons are just Wells that suck even more. 

[Shagie.7612]

I don't like that Kalla lost the ability to activate traps via the army.

Like, it's a niche aspect of the overall PvP meta but it's actually a huge loss in the DH matchup (and ranger too I guess but lol) especially if you get caught by a spear.
Kalla has no real stab access either for anything you might need it for.

That'd be fine, if there were an equivalent "I got hit by something so I lose" for the DH, but there isn't.

Bummer.

[arazoth.7290]

15 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

It's still hilarious that the Summons have a small delay on summon before they actually do their "cast animation" and land the attack. 

Somehow Summons are just Wells that suck even more. 

But kalla summons can't be placed everywhere 😓

[Jobber.6348]

5 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't like that Kalla lost the ability to activate traps via the army.

Like, it's a niche aspect of the overall PvP meta but it's actually a huge loss in the DH matchup (and ranger too I guess but lol) especially if you get caught by a spear.
Kalla has no real stab access either for anything you might need it for.

That'd be fine, if there were an equivalent "I got hit by something so I lose" for the DH, but there isn't.

Bummer.

If Especs can be seen as "borrowing mechanics from other classes" then Summons are just VERY BAD Phantasms. If they functioned more like actual Phantasms, it would have been still a major upgrade to how they were. 

Now they're VERY BAD Wells. Big disappointment tbh. 

[Shagie.7612]

On 4/9/2024 at 10:39 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

Now they're VERY BAD Wells. Big disappointment tbh. 

I don't think they're quite wells, but I do agree they're pretty bad.
Wells are relatively weak pulses but last a long time, the summons are a cast that has an on-drop effect, wind up, and then instant burst and disappear. They're closer to ranger spirits or dragon tooth or something, delayed burst effects.

I think they've painted themselves into a corner with that though. Clearly, the 1/2 second cast followed by such a long wind up is really bad, but where do we start looking to in order to actually make it a decent legend?

The initial effect you get for the 1/2 second cast? I don't think you can buff those dramatically considering there's zero animation tell to any of them. The other player has no way to tell what you're doing or where you're aiming. Is it Icerazor? Razorclaw? The heal? If they actually do something significant then what is the counterplay?
The burst effect? First, they're not consistent, you've gotta place em 1.5-2s in advance, hope the other player doesn't have superspeed, and doesn't dodge or turn around and beat your face in, since they also function as your "get away from me" abilities.
But then, also look at Storm Spirit. It WRECKS people, but it's the only one ranger has (that does good damage, mind you). But here with Rene you have potentially 3 of those? That's gonna get out of hand quickly if you start buffing them up to where they'd need to be to make Kalla actually a competitive choice.

Basically, I think they've set themselves up with almost the same problem they had with Kalla pre-rework. They don't like Renegade having good aoe, as evidenced by their statements and 6 year abandonment of it, but what is it supposed to be then?

Kalla (and Renegade in general) still has poor sustain, poor cleanse, poor poking and trading, and virtually zero ability to disengage once in the fight. If you wanna make it actually a decent spec, you'd have to make Icerazor and Darkrazor insanely strong, like getting hit by one is nearly fatal. That doesn't seem like a great way to balance the elite.

Additionally, why nothing like projectile finishers or blast finishers? Darkrazor and Razorclaw literally explode, Citadel Bombardment is artillery explosions, and Icerazor clearly throws projectiles (that thankfully don't hurt you when they hit proj reflect)

[Angesombre.4630]

I wish they could have corrected Kalla's biggest problem, the ground is her enemy. As said in the previous message, Kalla behaves like wells but without the well effects but with more disadvantages (impossibility to put it where you want and the delay of action of the skill once launched) and not really the advantages of the mechanics of the short bow of the engineer.

[arazoth.7290]

41 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I wish they could have corrected Kalla's biggest problem, the ground is her enemy. As said in the previous message, Kalla behaves like wells but without the well effects but with more disadvantages (impossibility to put it where you want and the delay of action of the skill once launched) and not really the advantages of the mechanics of the short bow of the engineer.

Kalla has acraphobia

[Angesombre.4630]

Kalla also suffers from aquaphobia.

[Shagie.7612]

It's funny, Citadel Bombardment is actually nuts underwater if there's only one target. It just shoots them out at random to anything in range, so if you're 1v1ing or something you can utterly explode someone especially if you're Vindication. Which is great, since underwater rev weapons are pretty weak so long as someone dodges trident 5.

If the ghosts worked too Kalla might be decent, you could actually be able to set up the spear 5 instead of people just swimming out of it before it goes off.

I know underwater combat's largely abandoned but I'm a firm believer that anything you can play on land should be playable underwater with slight modifications. It's not so bad for a utility or two to not work but entire legends, or an entire elite (mechanist)? Nah.

[Jobber.6348]

6 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Kalla also suffers from aquaphobia.

Cats hate water

[Shagie.7612]

Early in the season, but I've been playing nothing but Mallyx/Kalla so far.
I'm in plat, but it just doesn't work on a design level.

Like, take a look at condi reaper. It's got 2 CCs on its dps weapon set, another one on its defensive set, plus 2 on shroud plus whatever you grab for utilities.
Both weapons also have actual condi abilities. Rev Staff does not, and if you go mace/shield or axe, you're giving up staff cleanse, a mobile block, and an evade/knock. It's just not possible without the herald shield trait, so if you ever have to go defensive you've lost any pressure.

Rev by design is also extremely window based/bursty in its skill application because of how energy works as a class mechanic, so any smart player just cleanses once it's all over and you're spent and have no follow up.
On the flip side, that same condi reaper has really good burst condi application AND strong sustained application.

Plus, it's tankier, has better sustain, can disengage better via ports, which are infinitely more valuable than a low CD leap, since mobility is so high now.
You could draw similar comparisons to a condi sidenoder like druid (well, pre-mace druid lol) or zerk, too, if condi teamfighting is something Ren isn't supposed to be capable of.

It's true of most power builds too. They're objectively superior in just how much they can do AND don't struggle with the things that hurt Renegade and Kalla specifically.
Vindi has it beat in virtually every important aspect of a build and doesn't have problems with people being able to walk out of most of its damage.
Something similar to area denial like the summons, like idk DH or something, is also just better at almost everything? Traps only dropping at your feet compared to 600 range is meaningless.

How is any of that supposed to be fixed? What are you going to do besides another rework to address that, or buffing things to ridiculous levels to cover up those mechanical problems?

Oh, and because I'm really salty and petty:
Why is Engi shortbow 1200 while mine been made obsolete now by hammer?

Edited April 15 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

There are many flaws with kalla yes. And I also hope they just don't number buff it to make it work. 

 

Shortbow just has no defensives to start with compared to other rev weapons.

•They could on shortbow skill 3 give 0,75 seconds evade.

•Shortbow skill 4 could also pulse blinds ontop

[Jobber.6348]

3 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Shortbow just has no defensives to start with compared to other rev weapons.

They do have defensive utility imo, but it's just not so obvious as a built in Evade, Stealth, bonus utility. SB4's Firefield does heavy damage and staggers slow application, it in itself has won me many duels because people got impatient with me and tried fighting me in it. It's such an impactful equalizer on the playing field. A good SB user vs a bad one is very noticeable. 

 

 

3 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

•They could on shortbow skill 3 give 0,75 seconds evade.

•Shortbow skill 4 could also pulse blinds ontop

No, these are not needed imo.

What it needs is SB2 to apply Cripple. Revenant/Renegade is very good at keeping out of hands reach with clever play, but the reason they still get caught up with is unlike other weapons, their effective range isn't actually very good, which makes the lack of additional CC options, both soft and hard, more felt when put in practical play.

If SB2 was given a 2s Cripple, it would help the player kite much better or harass much better. No point overloading SB3 and SB4 which are already solid and powerful skills in SB's kit. 
 

Edited April 15 by Yasai.3549

[arazoth.7290]

11 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

They do have defensive utility imo, but it's just not so obvious as a built in Evade, Stealth, bonus utility. SB4's Firefield does heavy damage and staggers slow application, it in itself has won me many duels because people got impatient with me and tried fighting me in it. It's such an impactful equalizer on the playing field. A good SB user vs a bad one is very noticeable. 

 

 

No, these are not needed imo.

What it needs is SB2 to apply Cripple. Revenant/Renegade is very good at keeping out of hands reach with clever play, but the reason they still get caught up with is unlike other weapons, their effective range isn't actually very good, which makes the lack of additional CC options, both soft and hard, more felt when put in practical play.

If SB2 was given a 2s Cripple, it would help the player kite much better or harass much better. No point overloading SB3 and SB4 which are already solid and powerful skills in SB's kit. 
 

I use shortbow 4 same way yes. But you really can't even compare it close to those other defensives.

There have been many times ppl stood in it for me and just tanked it without doing any significant pressure. And that was pretty laughable, because that's the only offense as defense strategy.

So no, Idon't agree with it being enough compareable wise to others which have weakness condi, evasions, blocks and some even while doing damage.

[arazoth.7290]

On top of that, if people have resistance boon uptime, some longer then others, the slow becomes neglectent. You could argue, yea blind conditions would be too, but that's why the small evade.

There are enough tools people use that can counter the aoe damage or the slow and potential blind on shortbow 4.

So that's why for little more versatility in shortbow defensive wise.

If you encounter someone that stays in it, doesn't has defensives to counter 1 of the 2 and that person dies. Then it's a skill issue on openent part in making the used build/reacting to the situation 

 

[Shagie.7612]

44 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Revenant/Renegade is very good at keeping out of hands reach with clever play

I don't think that's very true anymore. Everything's too expensive, too long of a CD.
EoD (and subsequently SotO) ramped up mobility waaaay too much for that. Vindi can because it has the energy refund, extra evades, and more mobility via the Alliance skills, but you're not gonna successfully kite any decent roamer player as Ren.

However, more cover condis and just extra sustained condi application would be a godsend. It's so painful if you ever have to fight something like Holo. Which, admittedly, is kinda one of their specialties, but they're not exactly weak if you were playing the same match up as power so.. yeah.

More than anything I just want an answer, an acknowledgement of what went wrong, what the elite's purpose is supposed to be, and how it's gonna get there. I know Anet doesn't really do that but my goodness, how much longer do I gotta wait for my level of effort and skill to actually be reflected in my wins and losses?

[Jobber.6348]

37 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

but you're not gonna successfully kite any decent roamer player as Ren

I'm inclined to disagree. I still roam as Renegade and I win a huge majority of fights against EoD specs. The only thing I ever lose to is still dumb stuff like Druid which has historically bullied Revenants of all sorts. 

That's why I specifically mentioned careful play. Renegade is very powerful if you play carefully and has the capability to beat out many builds due to its very easy conditions to stack Might and having a rather good weapon when it comes to fighting enemies with directional projectile hate (SB2). If you aren't spamming your skills, Shiro's Energy is more manageable as a Stunbreak due to Contained Temper's small refund knocking the cost of the ability back down to 35 Energy in practice. Combined with Salvation dodges and Dwarf Song swap, Renegades are unnaturally beefy against a majority of builds in the game. 

The only problem is what I've stated: ability to kite. They survive most encounters by being mobile and then stalling enemy burst then go back to kiting again. Having Cripple on SB2 will help Renegade kite even better and safer. 

[Shagie.7612]

16 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I still roam as Renegade and I win a huge majority of fights against EoD specs.

Realizing now the miscommunication on that one.
I don't mean wvw roaming. I genuinely do not care a single bit about wvw. It's a disaster of a game mode where nobody's ever learned how to actually play because it actively encourages you not to.

I mean roamers in pvp. Duelists, +1ers, whatever you wanna call em.
You're not kiting them.

Also, again, Shiro/Jalis, Cele gear, traits are wildly different in WvW, lol.

I also still don't think Renegade's actually a better roamer than the same build as Vindi, if you're actually decent. Everyone just plays it in wvw because you get better results with low skill.

Edited April 15 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

44 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I'm inclined to disagree. I still roam as Renegade and I win a huge majority of fights against EoD specs. The only thing I ever lose to is still dumb stuff like Druid which has historically bullied Revenants of all sorts. 

That's why I specifically mentioned careful play. Renegade is very powerful if you play carefully and has the capability to beat out many builds due to its very easy conditions to stack Might and having a rather good weapon when it comes to fighting enemies with directional projectile hate (SB2). If you aren't spamming your skills, Shiro's Energy is more manageable as a Stunbreak due to Contained Temper's small refund knocking the cost of the ability back down to 35 Energy in practice. Combined with Salvation dodges and Dwarf Song swap, Renegades are unnaturally beefy against a majority of builds in the game. 

The only problem is what I've stated: ability to kite. They survive most encounters by being mobile and then stalling enemy burst then go back to kiting again. Having Cripple on SB2 will help Renegade kite even better and safer. 

1 small cripple won't do it, kalla e-spec/stance still has enough flaws.

Renegade against players who know what they do, won't do it yet sadly

[arazoth.7290]

43 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Realizing now the miscommunication on that one.
I don't mean wvw roaming. I genuinely do not care a single bit about wvw. It's a disaster of a game mode where nobody's ever learned how to actually play because it actively encourages you not to.

I mean roamers in pvp. Duelists, +1ers, whatever you wanna call em.
You're not kiting them.

Also, again, Shiro/Jalis, Cele gear, traits are wildly different in WvW, lol.

I also still don't think Renegade's actually a better roamer than the same build as Vindi, if you're actually decent. Everyone just plays it in wvw because you get better results with low skill.

Same, thought we meant spvp 😅.

Because celestial gear imo carries renegade how it's made 😅 for WvW roaming. Unless you go full power and outskill them a lot, then a big 👍 from me, always nice to see 

[Jobber.6348]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I mean roamers in pvp. Duelists, +1ers, whatever you wanna call em.
You're not kiting them.

Ah that makes sense. Yea PvP Revenant is a joke. I stopped playing any sort of Revenant in PvP after PT nerf. It's just not worth the effort. 

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I also still don't think Renegade's actually a better roamer than the same build as Vindi, if you're actually decent. Everyone just plays it in wvw because you get better results with low skill.

Renegade is better on a Cele set because of its innate attributes of having crit chance passive, insane 25 might generation and Fervor's Crit Damage and Condi Damage bonus. It's pretty much propped up by the entire traitline which lets the build run Salvation at all because Renegade traitline hardcarries all your damage. 

[Shagie.7612]

12 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Renegade is better on a Cele set because of its innate attributes of having crit chance passive, insane 25 might generation and Fervor's Crit Damage and Condi Damage bonus. It's pretty much propped up by the entire traitline which lets the build run Salvation at all because Renegade traitline hardcarries all your damage. 

It's not bad in wvw mostly because of Vindication and conc/exp, certainly, but the utility you get via Alliance is waaaaay beyond anything Renegade is capable of. It's just harder to use.

Anyways, as far as pvp goes, there's very few things you can actually kite as either power or condi, and you lose at range to almost all builds because you're out distanced, out sustained, out poked, whatever else. I genuinely don't think raising the summon range to 900 would actually help that very much. It wouldn't be bad, but I don't think it'd actually make a significant difference. What's the point when things that people don't even consider very good right now, like FA Weaver, are way beyond anything you can even dream of in terms of superspeed, blocks, invulns, blinds, and so on?

I've said it before, but if Renegade were to actually have damage proportional to how bad it is in almost every other area, seven shot would kill seven people every time it went off including your own team. You'd also have to do like twice as much condi as now of all types.

Oh and you're not allowed to play on half the maps because of terrain issues. I usually do a pretty good job of handling it but a map like coliseum is brutal.

Again, I don't see how, within the framework of how the summons function, you can make Renegade competitive as either power or condi. It's just mechanically worse than anything else in the game. Making them follow targets/yourself like gyros, or short cheap cooldowns so you're an aoe spammer (something we've all hated since it started in PoF but whatever) are the only solutions to that.

There's some other silly stuff, like why Darkrazor's a stunbreak + daze + stab but it's on a 2s delay versus say, Reaver's Rage being instant and almost the same damage, but that's also not gonna get addressed because both arenanet and everyone else love Vindicator lol

Edited April 16 by Shagie.7612

[Angesombre.4630]

Anet would have to make them look like wells, so they could be placed more easily, and remove the delay when the skill reaches the ground to launch an attack like the stun. Since Kalla's change, renegat has taken a general turn for the worse and no problem has been solved.