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Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update


Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

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Hopefully Necro will see some love in PvE, they're already underperforming as it is, they don't need to get nerfed further. Necro ramp up time in PvE is really slow compared to other condis classes, and it doesn't help that condi cleanses actually hurt our dps because we can't transfer condis we apply to ourselves. Just give Necros SOMETHING for a change. Someone already mentioned to remove the ICD on Demonic Lore in PvE only, that would help immensely.

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@Umbramare.9156 said:How to kill condi classes in PvE 101.

Honestly this is something that's needed.

Condition classes should do more damage but there should be more ramp and time involved in doing that damage. That's the whole point of a DOT class.Power classes buy their instant damage by doing less damage overall.

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I have to agree with people that said that the amount of different conditions that are being puked out has to adressed too. Some classes just have to many (ehm necro).

Also please take a look at hammer rev vs staff ele. Hammer rev just shouldn't be able to do as much damage as ele, when they are both full zerk, because it's a whole lot more survivable.

Warrior elite and enchantment collapse need to be adressed a bit, they are just to powerfull together. I like warrior rips a whole lot more than necro corrupts, but not if they are all packed in 1 skill.

Firebrand support is too much, no other class can compete to it, unless you want to rely on special mechanics, like jalis elite. Even ele auras aren't enough to warant using it over guardian.(guardian = stab, resistane, healing, condi cleanse, ... you just can't have all of that together)

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@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

  • We've heard your frustrations with the burstiness of conditions invalidating power builds across game modes (though for differing reasons in each). Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage once it has ramped up.

  • Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone). At small amounts vulnerability doesn’t feel good and adding more vulnerability to something that is capped on it has little value. These changes will offer chances to spike up vulnerability when it is ebbing or encourage new build styles.

Shoot me if you've heard this idea before: what if power builds were the most reliable way to apply vulnerability? So you can stack a full condi team if you want, but their vulnerability application is going to be pretty bad; likewise a full power team isn't necessarily going to deal as much as a condi team (unless they're weavers or holosmiths) but their vulnerability isn't going to run out any time soon.

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@Sarrs.4831 said:Honestly this is something that's needed.

Condition classes should do more damage but there should be more ramp and time involved in doing that damage. That's the whole point of a DOT class.Power classes buy their instant damage by doing less damage overall.

Except this doesn't really change anything to help that because some power builds are simply just BAD right now.

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Please for the love of god, split this "Balance Update" into PvE and PvP. I know the condi burst is just ridiculous in PvP but don't balance PvE around PvP again. For the part that's targeted at PvE content, the main issue here is not condi builds being overwhelmingly strong, but power builds being underwhelmingly weak and this should be where you start to balance, by adding power to weak builds and not by nerfing the in comparison stronger builds to the ground.

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Winds of Disenchantment is fine when it is alone. If you don't move out of the bubble, you will likely die, referring to WvW of course.When there are 5, 6, 7 or even 8 spellbreakers sequentially dropping them to blanket an entire tower, it's absolutely game breaking as there is no dodge to get you out of that and no counter to stop them.

There should be a re-think on how this skill works or some drawback to using it in these situations. Maybe make one Wind of Disenchantment cancel out another.

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@Umbramare.9156 said:How to kill condi classes in PvE 101.

4 burns for 5s will do the same damage as 2 burns for 10s and once fully into a rotation the dps numbers shouldn’t change too much. The real question is just how long of a ramp up time we are talking about for PvE but considering most of the highest dps builds are currently condition builds which have less stringent requirements for hitting the numbers (no scholar) then there needs to be a shift to make power worth running.

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Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

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@Jinks.2057 said:Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

Or, you know...split the skills based off of gamemode. PvE shouldn't be nerfed because skills are OP in PvP

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@Jinks.2057 said:Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

They could also do more split balancing.

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@Vrita.7846 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

Or, you know...split the skills based off of gamemode. PvE shouldn't be nerfed because skills are OP in PvP

Well I mean if they literally nerf all damage by 25% across all game modes at some future date (who knows maybe they don’t want dungeons to be facerolled) then they can do a relatively simple reduction to boss health numbers. It won’t make much difference, doing 10k dps to a boss with 100k health takes 10s as does doing 7.5k dps to a 75k health boss, no mechanics are skipped, the boss doesn’t get easier, it stays the same if done right.

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@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

We've heard your frustrations with the burstiness of conditions invalidating power builds across game modes (though for differing reasons in each). Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage once it has ramped up.

Hi Irenio, thanks for communicating with us on this matter.

Is there anything in the works to address how conditions work in WvW? By and large we understand that condition needs to be an equally viable option in all game modes, and with that view the buffs that have happened over the years make sense for PvP and PvE, but not for WvW. I actually feel that this sort of "nerf" would be unnecessary if there was a separation of how condition stacking and intensity worked in WvW, PvP was left alone, and PvE was buffed.

In WvW we are stuck with the PvE scaling - meaning any one person can be hit with all 1500 stacks of every condition. Yes I realize this is likely to never happen, but when you're in a group bigger than 5 the probability of being hit by 3 of any condition class at the same time is significantly high. If one squad has 5 Necromancerss (which is a small amount of Necros for a big blob to have in the current meta) they can chuck 15 stacks of bleeding and torment on 5 people with one co-ordinated skill that ticks 37.5k damage over 3 seconds. Seems reasonable for PvE (mobs with millions of health and toughness stats) and for PvP, where the likelyhood of seeing a 5 Necro team is next to nil. But in WvW that's going to hit one person for 37,500 damage assuming they stand still and don't trigger the extra torment damage.

What I'm looking for in the long run is some sort of separation to stacking and / or intensity for WvW in specific, maybe where conditions experience a diminishing return. The more conditions a target has the less effective they become, the more stacks of a single condition the less damage it does over time and/or per tick. Also some sort of stat separation for condition builds to give up something that either contributes to their damage or contributes to their survivability, which currently they don't have to do - it's quite easy to maximize condition damage and duration while also maintaining maximum vitality and toughness. Maximum power build output (power, precision, ferocity) requires giving up significant vitality and toughness.

The power creep of the elite specs hasn't really allowed WvW to keep up. There aren't enough, or perhaps the right, combination of stats available to produce counter play options to either a condi meta or a power meta. Being insta-killed by 3 Rev's firing a CoR off at a single target isn't any better than being hit by one co-ordinated condi bomb. There seems to be a lack of health pool to provide room for counter play in group fights specifically. Small scale fights are mostly balanced around the PvP balancing but once the groups scale up the probability of counter play significantly diminishes regardless of damage type. I don't believe this is by design, so I'm hopeful it's something Anet is working on or at least willing to work on.

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  • ArenaNet Staff

To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

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why they do not enhance direct attacks and reduce the damage of the conditions?5 years ago that is taking advantage of the conditions, and today is not even play, just throwing all the conditions and run like a chicken.

And also should limit the amount of conditions that a character can support, it can not be that you can apply all the conditions of the game at once. That is directly leaving the affected character without playing.

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