Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

[apharma.3741]

@Umbramare.9156 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Umbramare.9156 said:How to kill condi classes in PvE 101.

4 burns for 5s will do the same damage as 2 burns for 10s and once fully into a rotation the dps numbers shouldn’t change too much. The real question is just how long of a ramp up time we are talking about for PvE but considering most of the highest dps builds are currently condition builds which have less stringent requirements for hitting the numbers (no scholar) then there needs to be a shift to make power worth running.

???If you'd play with any halfdecent people you'd know that power gets favored if your groupdps isnt complete garbage.

Power builds? DH, weaver and engy pretty much and only on fights where you want spiked damage instead of over time. That’s a hand full of encounters in the game but everything else condi is at a much bigger advantage due to no scholar runes and simple rotations. I don’t know any competent group that favours power over condi, maybe some try hards that think they’re elite that insist on weaver only but it says more about where they’re heads are stuffed than anything else.

@Astralporing.1957 Agreed but only for some classes, would also help if there was a decent alternative to scholar with power/ferocity but a 5% damage while you have fury or might.

[apharma.3741]

Please delete double post

[Swagger.1459]

@ThomasC.1056 said:Condis shouldn't be bursty, it's a fact. In a perfect game, indeed, they should deal slightly more damage than power, but over a significant amount of time. Which justifies Dire and TB stats to exist.

Now, they are bursty, which is an issue in PvP and WvW, and their key efficiency in PvE. Why ? Specifically in PvP game modes :

1. Because they can
2. Because it's too dangerous to engage in a long fight (dangerous and boring, btw)
3. Because, whatever people say, condi will deal more damage than power only if they're not removed or negated (resistance). So as the condi removal is a big thing (firebrands ?), a burst is the logical solution.

Now, that change is a difficult bet for condi users. It raises the risk, and shed a strong uncertainity on the reward. It's also a dangerous path to follow. We'll see...

In the perfect scenario, Anet changes (what they call) condi damage skills... to DoT/Periodic damage... just like every other game on the market. And this DoT damage is treated like any other form of damage with regard to stats and armor damage mitigation. DoT skills can also critical. Secondary Status Effects (CC) in skills (chill, immob, cripple, daze...) are mitigated by the various cleansing/removal skills...

We shall see what happens, but I’m not hopeful.

[Etterwyn.5263]

@eldrjth.7384 said:Im going to have a complete ascended heavy armor set for my guardian (either FB/DH) and now cant decide whether to use vipers/marauders stats. Wonder which would be the best for playing mostly fractals.

Wait until Tuesday... always best to see the changes and see how things settle.

[Aylaine.1036]

Please make these changes per game mode, and not a blanket change. PvE condition damage is fairly delicate. There would be a huge uproar if you applied these changes to PvE.

[theridiid.8746]

Just waiting to see if this screws up my playstyle. Wait and see I guess.

[firefox.5614]

Maybe fix scourge shade ?

[ZeteCommander.4937]

It may be possible to change the perception of condition. Like lol, whether the AP assassin or the ad assassin are all the assassins, why do you want to tangle the damage type AP or ad（condItion or direct）

[Sefer.9618]

Great. In the same move you could fix or revert the complete change of the Necro's Shade-Mechanic which wasn't mentioned in the patch notes. One cannot simply change a mechanic completely and think it's ok not to mention it... Which not only affects WvW and PvP but PvE, too, seeing most recent reports.

[Kumouta.4985]

@Ashyri.5426 said:Im hoping for focus buffs soooooo badly! I just loved the new "The Binding of Ipos" and I wish it could be more useful, specially for necro since it fits the class perfectly.By the way, thank you very much for it and congratulations on this masterpiece.Actually, focus dps should be higher than offhand dagger for necro- if plague sending lasted 20 seconds! but it doesn't last 20 sec.buffs would be welcome nonetheless!

[Shara.4716]

Number 1 change I would like to see. Every class having the same base vitality.

[Joxer.6024]

Go nuts ANET, balance it out and all that. Just PLEASE do not kill an already shaky Renegade! We finally are seeing some love and to kill said love would be both a crime and a shame. But yes, burst belongs to the Power classes and damage over time is just what it says. Its the other tweaking you mentioned that scares me.....tread softly? ;)

[Rezzet.3614]

Might be a win win change if most condies get a decrease in initial damage but longer duration because condies will gain insane durations and stack potential over time with gear and buffs wich means fairer pvp fights and buff vs pve bosses and raids

[Lifelike.5862]

In the perfect scenario, Anet changes (what they call) condi damage skills... to DoT/Periodic damage... just like every other game on the market. And this DoT damage is treated like any other form of damage with regard to stats and armor damage mitigation. DoT skills can also critical. Secondary Status Effects (CC) in skills (chill, immob, cripple, daze...) are mitigated by the various cleansing/removal skills...

Oh PLEASE no. I love condi specifically because I don't want to deal with the randomness of crit chance. Condi shouldn't just feel like delayed power damage. What's the identity there? There has to be some kind of point for specializing in a damage type that isn't power.

[tonny.7580]

wow just nerf the condis and not buff power builds i can just imagen warrior dps now i man power warrior thos 18k-21k on perfect condisons but in new wing fight and raids there soo fuck becous the only class who has to melaa with power realy anet if u nerf condis andlist buff power on class not nerf them

[ThomasC.1056]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@ThomasC.1056 said:Condis shouldn't be bursty, it's a fact. In a perfect game, indeed, they should deal slightly more damage than power, but over a significant amount of time. Which justifies Dire and TB stats to exist.

Now, they

are

bursty, which is an issue in PvP and WvW, and their key efficiency in PvE. Why ? Specifically in PvP game modes :

1. Because they can
2. Because it's too dangerous to engage in a long fight (dangerous and boring, btw)
3. Because, whatever people say, condi will deal more damage than power only if they're not removed or negated (resistance). So as the condi removal is a big thing (firebrands ?), a burst is the logical solution.

Now, that change is a difficult bet for condi users. It raises the risk, and shed a strong uncertainity on the reward. It's also a dangerous path to follow. We'll see...

In the perfect scenario, Anet changes (what they call) condi damage skills... to DoT/Periodic damage... just like every other game on the market. And this DoT damage is treated like any other form of damage with regard to stats and armor damage mitigation. DoT skills can also critical. Secondary Status Effects (CC) in skills (chill, immob, cripple, daze...) are mitigated by the various cleansing/removal skills...

We shall see what happens, but I’m not hopeful.

I'm not hopeful the slightest as well. Increasing the condi duration might compensate in PvE (+raids etc.) but is a nonsense in PvP/WvW. They could make condis last 75s it wouldn't change a thing for the simple reason that fights are too quickly finished. Beyond a specific threshold, it's no use to increase the duration.

Moreover, the biggest issue to me isn't the damage figures, but the application/removal rate that make condi an actually not-so-reliable source of damage. Any news on that topic ? Of course not ! That'd require bringing down whole elite specs and whole traitlines.

[Sykper.6583]

Let's see how this plays out first.

Might as well provide positive feedback.

[Joxer.6024]

@Rezzet.3614 said:Might be a win win change if most condies get a decrease in initial damage but longer duration because condies will gain insane durations and stack potential over time with gear and buffs wich means fairer pvp fights and buff vs pve bosses and raids

We can but hope and pray that that is their goal, and they reach it!

[saerni.2584]

I’d note that the OP refers to “some” skills and not to all condition skills.

Hopefully, this is more about trimming outlier bursts on Scourge and Mirage and less a universal change to all condition skills.

I’d also repeat what a few others have said, namely, that if the adjustment isn’t just to outlier builds then reductions in cleanse may be appropriate.

Contrary to popular belief, some classes are able to cleanse extremely well to the point that longer durations don’t matter. An example is Spellbreaker already being able to fight Scourge pre-patch.

I’m also interested in whether the team is looking at under powered condition builds at the same time in order to bring them closer to their end goal with duration and initial damage. If so, this patch could address the fact that most condition specs aren’t nearly as deadly as the commonly complained about builds.

[FrouFrou.4958]

Are you guys aware that there is a major ranger/druid/soulbeast pet bug where quickness is not affecting majority of ranger pets (To be precise 41 out of 52 of our pets are bugged) at all? That's pretty huge as rangers have several abilities and traits that give our pets quickness, yet it does nothing at all. Any ETA for the fix? Link to the topic -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/565/one-big-problem-with-rangers-and-pets-anet-fix-this-bug

[Deth.1698]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

Would love to continue seeing more frequent, smaller-scope balance updates

[Jinks.2057]

@Rhyse.8179 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

GW2 has too many game modes and they all have vastly different balance needs. There are two options: Balance based on PVP, which will result in GW2 being a perpetual salt mine (see: the last 5 years), or to balance for separate game modes.

PVP needs control and burst.PVE needs DPS and sustain.WVW needs... a reason to exist. That was sarcasm. TBH I don't play it so I dunno what it needs.Raids need DPS, more DPS, and a Druid. And also more DPS.

You simply can't balance one of these game modes based on the other (except perhaps wvw and pvp). It's not possible. Adjusting a boss's HP can't alter the fundamentally different requirements of each environment. Players and developers both have to accept that. If my beloved condi Reaper isn't viable as top tier raid spec, fine. Raids are demanding like that, there isn't room for a sub-par spec. We accept that or don't raid; that's part of accessing that game mode. But I don't want to be denied a slice of cake that I've already baked so someone else can get a cookie. The issue is untargeted changes having unintended consequences. Nerfing deathshroud for

all

builds, in

all

game modes, in order to buff power specs in raids was a huge mistake that has sparked a huge wave of anger. And angry players are not likely to be or remain paying players. It's in Anet's own interest not to pull these stunts.

I don't think the game will ever truly be balanced. It's structurally impossible from the game design - there are too many opposed demands to meet. But the closest you can get will be to balance each mode separately. Without the ability to target balance changes specifically where they are needed, there will always be a cascade of unintended consequences, and a bottomless quarry full of salt will be mined with gusto. Balance can be changed without changing skill or class funcitonality, btw. Stat scaling, condition durations, crit magnitudes, all the hidden stats behind each skill can be adjusted as needed per game mode. There are lots of ways to adjust balance with altering the feel and flow of a build. Besides which, PVP and PVE builds are so widely different that it really doesn't matter if they feel the same, because nobody will ever use the same build in both modes.

they can just nerf raid bosses or change it to not require DPS DPS DPS and more DPS.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

Does this mean that we'll get more mini balance patches from now on? Like 4 major balance patches throughout the year, and maybe 4-8 minor balance patches through the year?

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

[ArthurDent.9538]

Amazing that you are going to nerf pvp Rev again with this mutilate defenses change. Several traits for the class are conditional on having vuln on the target so now you just cleanse the initial vuln and unless they are spamming their elite skills, you negate several traits. Will ultimately just make the vulnerability sigil mandatory.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 things:

1) Why not just nerf overperforming Condition specs? No condition spec outside of scourge and mirage in pvp are worth bringing (they're underpowered compared to power specs). In raids, power vs. condi is actually quite balanced overall and is more boss/mechanic dependent than spec dependent. The only issue in pve is the lack of viable power builds for several classes. Condi classes are only so prevalent in pve because of the lack of diverse power options. Why not just buff power options for classes that need them and actually do comprehensive skill splits?????????

2) Mutilate Defenses change is ABSOLUTELY UNNEEDED. It's a direct nerf to power revenant anytime the power rev isn't just autoattacking with sword. Revs have literally 3 ways per Elite spec to inflict vulnerability all with short durations. Unless you're planning on adding in extra sources of small vuln to hammer/staff and/or completely reworking the other two minor devastation traits to not be so vulnerability dependent, I absolutely cannot agree with this change.