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Renegade F-skills + kalla stance empowerment effect


arazoth.7290

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Posted (edited)

• Main part:

From reading about the change currently on getting an empowerment+ instant cast after using 2nd kalla stance skill, most find it spammy mechanic design.

But what of being connected on using a kalla stance skill first before activating, F-skill Heroic Commandment could apply that.

So Heroic Commandment would do what it does now too + no energy cost. But it would have 3 charges. Lasting Legacy connected trait could lower that cd slightly and give 1 extra stack charge.

So why did I put that many stacks instead of just 2. Because Heroic Commandment can potentially apply 1 generalised empowerment to 1 of the core stances while in it. So it doesn't benefit elite spec stance only, which gives more options.

• Extra's:

- Citadel Bombardment: Lower energy cost/faster travel time + 240 aoe instead of 120.

-Orders from above: Some lower energy too. And adding some aoe condi cleanse/pulse, since renegade lacks cleanse. Putting it on F-skill makes it not stance depended when you're in one.

In general the F skills are high energy cost for the extra amount of stance abilties/weapon skills you have to use.

- Soulcleave's Summit some higher additional strike damage/higher additional healing, it's not that high enough for effort.

- Fix Icerazor's Ire vulnerability stacks bug with Dance of Death Battle scars trait appliance.

- Kalla stance summons can be used from higher ground and on certain uneven objects where it gives error code.

- Darkrazor's Daring: Daze should apply faster. 1-3 seconds initial stability, if daze hits you get 1 additional 3 sec stability stack.

 

 

Edited by arazoth.7290
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The main point which people dislike greatly is that Kalla now plays like a spammer. That needs to be fixed above all. We don't know if Anet is ever gonna address it but needless to say, it's one of the most annoying and detractive changes they could have thought of for Kalla and they ran with it. If nothing can be changed, then the very least they could do is increase the cast range for all the skills and to make castable on all terrain types. 

As for F skills: they are what sets Renegade apart from the other two specs, so it just needs polishing. 

Citadel Bombardment should be changed from unloading a barrage to calling in an artillery strike. This means no more projectiles barrage, but it's sustained damage over the AoE based on how many missiles you're calling in when you cast the skill. This alone will make it more attractive to use in various scenarios. 

Orders from Above can have its cleanse given to Righteous Rebel GM. That GM could use a touch up anyway and giving it a Cleanse based on how many stacks of Fervor would be a pretty good buff in addition to its current effect of reduction Condition Damage per stack. 

Heroic Command I think is just meh because for one, a Renegade need to run Righteous Rebel anyway for Alac role. It is also made redundant by Vindication which generates self might for Citadel Bombardment as a Condi DPS role or solo playing purposes. So where does it leave it? Redundancy and extra button to press for no reason. I don't think making it cost 0 Energy is gonna be a good thing either because players use it to dump Energy for the purpose of Charged Mists. Maybe what can be done is instead change Lasting Legacy GM to give Vigor and Resistance in addition to extending duration instead of more Might. Idk, I just feel like Vigor and Resistance in this place would make the GM much better and indirectly make Heroic Command more desirable to press. 

At the same time, remove that nonsensical Bold Reversal and make it a proper trait instead. There was nothing ever wrong with old Bold Reversal anyway, what the heck was Anet thinking? 

 

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2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

The main point which people dislike greatly is that Kalla now plays like a spammer. That needs to be fixed above all. We don't know if Anet is ever gonna address it but needless to say, it's one of the most annoying and detractive changes they could have thought of for Kalla and they ran with it. If nothing can be changed, then the very least they could do is increase the cast range for all the skills and to make castable on all terrain types. 

As for F skills: they are what sets Renegade apart from the other two specs, so it just needs polishing. 

Citadel Bombardment should be changed from unloading a barrage to calling in an artillery strike. This means no more projectiles barrage, but it's sustained damage over the AoE based on how many missiles you're calling in when you cast the skill. This alone will make it more attractive to use in various scenarios. 

Orders from Above can have its cleanse given to Righteous Rebel GM. That GM could use a touch up anyway and giving it a Cleanse based on how many stacks of Fervor would be a pretty good buff in addition to its current effect of reduction Condition Damage per stack. 

Heroic Command I think is just meh because for one, a Renegade need to run Righteous Rebel anyway for Alac role. It is also made redundant by Vindication which generates self might for Citadel Bombardment as a Condi DPS role or solo playing purposes. So where does it leave it? Redundancy and extra button to press for no reason. I don't think making it cost 0 Energy is gonna be a good thing either because players use it to dump Energy for the purpose of Charged Mists. Maybe what can be done is instead change Lasting Legacy GM to give Vigor and Resistance in addition to extending duration instead of more Might. Idk, I just feel like Vigor and Resistance in this place would make the GM much better and indirectly make Heroic Command more desirable to press. 

At the same time, remove that nonsensical Bold Reversal and make it a proper trait instead. There was nothing ever wrong with old Bold Reversal anyway, what the heck was Anet thinking? 

 

Or resistance on Heroic Commandment like you said with group superspeed applied. Since you already get yourself vigor by just attacking

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1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Or resistance on Heroic Commandment like you said with group superspeed applied. Since you already get yourself vigor by just attacking

It's not really about yourself more than giving the group Vigor as well. Superspeed... idk. Anet doesn't even know how to balance the thing. 

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Could add the chaining warband effects to the 3 citadel order skills as well. Therefor lessening the need to fire out all your utility "summons" and start or end the chain with your f2-f4 skills. This would also allow them to buff the skills without bloating them so by locking away the extra effects behind the chained combo making you pick and choose what is needed at the time. 

I know the warband chaining mechanic isn't too well designed and comes across like spam, but if the pool of combos was expanded from 4 to 7, I feel like that opens up a more versatile playstyle. They could also look at a refund mechanic where either the skill that started the chain OR the one that finishes it is reduced in energy cost OR rewards some energy back in order to make the playstyle more fluid.

All of that said, They just gave Kala a rework, and a sloppy half baked one at that. Since it seems like no one on the design or balance team knows what to do with rev, I imagine it'll just be swept underneath the rug for the next pass of Willbender buffs. I don't really expect them to really touch it again outside of slight number tweaks.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

It's not really about yourself more than giving the group Vigor as well. Superspeed... idk. Anet doesn't even know how to balance the thing. 

Oh you meant for others too, aight.

 

31 minutes ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

Could add the chaining warband effects to the 3 citadel order skills as well. Therefor lessening the need to fire out all your utility "summons" and start or end the chain with your f2-f4 skills. This would also allow them to buff the skills without bloating them so by locking away the extra effects behind the chained combo making you pick and choose what is needed at the time. 

I know the warband chaining mechanic isn't too well designed and comes across like spam, but if the pool of combos was expanded from 4 to 7, I feel like that opens up a more versatile playstyle. They could also look at a refund mechanic where either the skill that started the chain OR the one that finishes it is reduced in energy cost OR rewards some energy back in order to make the playstyle more fluid.

All of that said, They just gave Kala a rework, and a sloppy half baked one at that. Since it seems like no one on the design or balance team knows what to do with rev, I imagine it'll just be swept underneath the rug for the next pass of Willbender buffs. I don't really expect them to really touch it again outside of slight number tweaks.

Yea some energy return like 7 energy, 5 might be too low and 10 too high.

The F-skills involving in this yes could be an option, more combos could maybe work, not sure.

I still feel that you press 1 and have for wanting an extra effect on the other you have to fast press another. Even though I try not to spam it myself and more situational use, it's still there.

 

I still think if they want to go through on this with some enchanced effects, that comboing shouldn't be there to get these effects.

Another idea on my OP idea aside of the above one of me to replace current warband mechanic==>

Each F skill- grants 2 stacks of enchancements for your next kalla/core stance skills if used. These enchancing stacks can stack up and have a 10 second duration for using, this adds less rush in using it instantly after.

The enchancing for core stances effects, to not make everything complicated, it will be just 1 generalised effect no matter what abiltity you press. That effect will be somethig appropriate according to that corr stance. 

Few examples on that core thingy avout enchanced stacks=>

Shiro: Lifesteal to group/used stack

Mallyx: Resistance boon to group/used stack

Centaur: Regen boon to group/used stack

Dwarf: 15% damage of taken converted to healing to group for few seconds/used stack.

The duration of boons would differ depending on content ofc.

 

Even in this last idea with more on demand they could overall give as a minor trait that each stack used returns 3 energy.

 

Edited by arazoth.7290
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

I know the warband chaining mechanic isn't too well designed and comes across like spam, but if the pool of combos was expanded from 4 to 7, I feel like that opens up a more versatile playstyle. They could also look at a refund mechanic where either the skill that started the chain OR the one that finishes it is reduced in energy cost OR rewards some energy back in order to make the playstyle more fluid.

Their idea is good on paper but just doesn't translate well to gameplay. In fact, it's so EXACT on paper, that the optimal usage of skill spam is so carefully calculated that you spend exactly 75 Energy on a fresh Kalla swap so that you can Soulcleave > spam summons. (Soulcleave 5  > Summons 20 25 25= 75 ON THE DOT. Soulcleave drain is exactly -5 which means no Energy will be lost upkeeping her) 

Imagine if Charged Mists ever got tweaked. This playstyle just falls right apart. I mean sure you could "not spam it" but the chaining part with a window pretty much encourages it! 

 

Edited by Yasai.3549
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Posted (edited)

I don't think having Citadel Orders activate the War Band effect is a very good idea.
You'd be losing half your elite's mechanics if you didn't run Kalla, then. No other elites lose their mechanics if they don't run a specific set of utilities.

Unless you're proposing they go through and add empower effects for all the usable legends which is an extremely large amount of development time and man hours. It's unrealistic just based on time investment and the age of the game, but it's also an elite they don't like and only make changes to like once every 4 years, on top of being another massive balancing struggle.

Even flipping it, to where using a utility skill empowers a Citadel Order doesn't work that well, because of upkeep skills. You're now struggling with the balance between an elite that has a cheap, instant upkeep toggle like hammers/IO versus one that doesn't, like Mallyx or Kalla who have cast times on theirs, assuming elites counted. It'd be better, but only slightly.

Anyways, I don't want to have to budget even more energy on things like Orders from Above to access cleansing when it's the elite that already has insane energy demands, or to have to trade a bunch of traits to access stuff that all these other specs get for much less hassle. Lowering costs only goes so far because you'll always be splitting energy to get everything, unless you go so far as to make things free, which is... uninteractive, both to play and to fight against, to say the least.

It's one of the worst elites in the game despite the rework, it needs to gain, not have a bunch of two steps forward, one step back trade offs when nobody else is making those choices. Yes, that is powercreep, but it is still that bad, and they've given up on caring about powercreep for everyone else anyways.
I don't do any more damage as condi renegade than that condi reaper, so why's he got me beat in almost every other area too, and why is the fix to do less damage just to maybe match the other stuff he already can do?
I do less as power renegade than that vindicator over there, so why's he got me beat in every area?
You can make that comparison to almost every build in the game no matter what type of Renegade you're playing. Maybe if it were decent and functional, then there'd be some nuance in trait tradeoffs and whatnot, but it isn't.

Edited by Shagie.7612
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1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't think having Citadel Orders activate the War Band effect is a very good idea.
You'd be losing half your elite's mechanics if you didn't run Kalla, then. No other elites lose their mechanics if they don't run a specific set of utilities.

Unless you're proposing they go through and add empower effects for all the usable legends which is an extremely large amount of development time and man hours. 

nono, that's why I said 1 generalised effect for your core stances to not make it too complicated. So not like inventing for each abiltity on your core, that would be indeed a lot.

Just 1 big generalised effect no matter what core stance ability you use, but it should be q worthwhile one that compliments it nicely!

I don't want to make it depending on using kalla stance always, that's why that. And the examples I gave could be better even maybe for the core ones, that was just an illustration for what I meant in my last message.

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1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

 

Anyways, I don't want to have to budget even more energy on things like Orders from Above to access cleansing when it's the elite that already has insane energy demands

 

Yes, the energy on these F-skills needs to be reduced a lot, we already have stance skills that cost enough.

If it was me, I would just make these F-skills cost ZERO energy. Since weapons/stance skills already take enough energy, that they did this is a big flaw in fluent useage of these 3 atm

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Just 1 big generalised effect no matter what core stance ability you use, but it should be q worthwhile one that compliments it nicely!

What's the goal with gameplay though? To trade the double casting of one legend with a pairing of Citadel Order->Utility on all of them?
That's also very spammy and limiting for gameplay too, maybe even moreso.

The effects you'd be giving out are also extremely close to just being Facet of Nature/True Nature, why not leave that for Herald?

I don't think the War Band effect was very thought out in any content except PvE, particularly dummy testing where you don't have a need to space skills out or wait to use them.
It actively goes against what utility skills are meant to be as situational skills.

I don't think trying to restrict them by requiring hoops to jump through to get your full power is something you can make feel good.

I do agree though that they need to take a hard look at all the energy costs, of citadel orders, of legend skills, and that doing so would probably be the best short term change they could make. They're doing a patch preview in a week and it seems like the biggest no-brainer change, so it seems pretty likely to happen if they end up making more changes.

Edited by Shagie.7612
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1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

 

I do agree though that they need to take a hard look at all the energy costs, of citadel orders, of legend skills, and that doing so would probably be the best short term change they could make. They're doing a patch preview in a week and it seems like the biggest no-brainer change, so it seems pretty likely to happen if they end up making more changes.

Lets agree ln this part atleast yes

 

What else they could do with current design, the kalla enchanced stacks giving them unlimited duration for useage to apply this to the next one. This goes little bit against the warband summoning after each other to benefit from it, but this part also made gives the need to spam 2 shortly after each other. Instead of more situational useages. Is this a bandaid on some underlying real problem it not working well, might be yes.

But if again the energy of legend/f-skills get lower, it might also solve itself for that part atleast. This won't make renegade reallll better in general how effective their abilties/traits/f-skills are though, but atleast better energy management.

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