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Why not give the raids a second chance?


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Posted (edited)

SotO first map essentially gives Anet the best opportunity to reintroduce raids, they created an environment where Isgarren was testing the "What if...", why not apply that to raids and, either allow the players to submit ideas or port the GW1 ones as some sort of "fractals". And, when it comes to difficulty, now they can use the excuse of the "What if..." to add different tiers of difficulty, somehow similar to fractals, we have the default difficulty, then a "What would happen if we add this to the situation" and, as hard mode, a full monke situation like, for example having Sabetha throwing bombs on the Vale Guardian that, unless destroyed, will reduce permanently players's health in 5% up to 5 times (remember that VG's green it's 75% of max health, green boum + having 25% less health = death).

They have the perfect chance to reintroduce players to raiding, they have fractals, that it's the main endgame, they have strikes, that it's the mid tier endgame and ladder between fractals and raids, and now, the best chance to make the ladder lead somewhere.

Edited by Renegated.4132
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As nice as something like that might be, strikes seem to be the only new 10-person content we're getting. They've moved beyond their original purpose of leading people up to raids since raids took extra work (unique story and fights) and strikes take no new modeling and little new animating (100% reused content from story).

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Well, it's kinda obvious that they're gonna need extra work, since they are new content xD

And y, it's kinda sad that the magic of telling new stories ended up being lost, because right now, it would be good to visit the interior of the djinn city to find something they are keeping there in order for it to remain sealed or, since GW1 and GW2 are made in the same engine, do a copy/paste of GW1 raids and try to adapt it to GW2.

Also, they don't need to create new content, the chapter where we "speak" with Eparch should be a raid, I mean, it has everything a raid needs, the only thing they should add are 2 bosses, the rest it's already done.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with what the other two have said. I believe the true reasons they wanted to focus on strikes and not raids were because (1) they could use the same basic combat from a story encounter and (2) reuse the combat mechanics from raids. I don't know if they don't have the motivation to create new contents or man power to do this, but either way, this is very sad.

This trend of reusing existing contents is everywhere: convergences (just place a new legendary NPC in the existing instance), rifts (I mean what's special about them? go to rifts and kill the same enemies everywhere in every map), the most recent fractal (mix of W4 raid, ToF strike, and the story fight), some of the EoD elite spec mechanics, some EoD WBs, some DRMs, skill animations, skill icons (same icon but different colors), collection achievements (go do these old JPs), rush events and return-to events (play the old contents because we will give you gold).

I understand that you're suggesting to combine existing combat mechanics for interesting combination, but personally, the accumulating number of reused things and the lack of truly unique contents (with some exceptions here and there) are overwhelming now.

Edited by Furball.1236
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26 minutes ago, Furball.1236 said:

I agree with what the other two have said. I believe the true reasons they wanted to focus on strikes and not raids were because (1) they could use the same basic combat from a story encounter and (2) reuse the combat mechanics from raids. I don't know if they don't have the motivation to create new contents or man power to do this, but either way, this is very sad.

This trend of reusing existing contents is everywhere: convergences (just place a new legendary NPC in the existing instance), rifts (I mean what's special about them? go to rifts and kill the same enemies everywhere in every map), the most recent fractal (mix of W4 raid, ToF strike, and the story fight), some of the EoD elite spec mechanics, some EoD WBs, some DRMs, skill animations, skill icons (same icon but different colors), collection achievements (go do these old JPs), rush events and return-to events (play the old contents because we will give you gold).

I understand that you're suggesting to combine existing combat mechanics for interesting combination, but personally, the accumulating number of reused things and the lack of truly unique contents (with some exceptions here and there) are overwhelming now.

 

I said something about "combining" mechanics to say something, but for example, the end battles of the expansions should be raids in a lot of situations, I mean, you're taking down a god, an inmortal lich, a king that it's essentially the strongest in his world... And all of that occurs on a freaking 1 vs 1? Seriously? As of now, when it comes to Eparch, they only need to create 2 bosses, they have the last fight, they have the terrain already made, they only need to add 2 bosses with their mechanics and maybe modify a room, but when it comes to the rest, they essentially have a raid created. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, we are LITERALLY raiding the castle xDDD

 

The problem, as you said, comes with the fact that they don't want to use resources on something not everyone likes, but what they refuse to understand it's that if raids failed, was because of them refusing to punish bad attitudes such as "You're doing 1K less damage, go kitten yourself", obviously when people saw that, they simply left. They are getting chances to amend the fail again and again, and instead of using them to give the players more instanced content to play, that at the end of the day, it's what makes an MMO work, they prefer to look away. 

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11 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

I said something about "combining" mechanics to say something, but for example, the end battles of the expansions should be raids in a lot of situations, I mean, you're taking down a god, an inmortal lich, a king that it's essentially the strongest in his world... And all of that occurs on a freaking 1 vs 1? Seriously? As of now, when it comes to Eparch, they only need to create 2 bosses, they have the last fight, they have the terrain already made, they only need to add 2 bosses with their mechanics and maybe modify a room, but when it comes to the rest, they essentially have a raid created. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, we are LITERALLY raiding the castle xDDD

 

The problem, as you said, comes with the fact that they don't want to use resources on something not everyone likes, but what they refuse to understand it's that if raids failed, was because of them refusing to punish bad attitudes such as "You're doing 1K less damage, go kitten yourself", obviously when people saw that, they simply left. They are getting chances to amend the fail again and again, and instead of using them to give the players more instanced content to play, that at the end of the day, it's what makes an MMO work, they prefer to look away. 

I completely agree with you about the final fight should've been much more epic. If a large scale combat doesn't suit for a story (even though I disagree with this statement and think there are several ways to have such story encounter), they should've ended the story in a different way in the story and gave us the opportunity to fight him in raids. For example, they could somehow chase away Eparch and his army to a remote location and let us finish his army in raids or something.

What I don't want to see though is that they will design the last fight for a raid encounter and simply dumb it down for the story. They've done this every time they created a new strike mission in the past. The outcome was combat mechanics unsuitable and boring for a single person combat and strange transition of the storytelling. Moreover, when playing these strikes, you don't feel any importance of the story that used to be attached with that part of encounter, no uniqueness of the environment inside those boring rooms they put a single boss into, and a fight you've seen 60% in that story fight and 30% from an existing raid wing. I really enjoyed when they created a separate and unique instance in the past with unique stories attached to them, but not some copy-paste of a fraction of encounter we've already experienced.

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2 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

The problem, as you said, comes with the fact that they don't want to use resources on something not everyone likes, but what they refuse to understand it's that if raids failed, was because of them refusing to punish bad attitudes such as "You're doing 1K less damage, go kitten yourself", obviously when people saw that, they simply left. They are getting chances to amend the fail again and again, and instead of using them to give the players more instanced content to play, that at the end of the day, it's what makes an MMO work, they prefer to look away. 

the problem... is that the jerks who treat people as you describe are killing interest in raiding in EVERY game... and that toxicity is exactly why the original community (with the exception of the MMO-hoppers) actually asked Anet to NOT add raids. So they added Fractals. And the raid community still complained they didn't have their exclusive rewards. Then with Hot they added raids, and the raid community doubled down on their toxicity. the exclusionary behavior got worse. Anet tried to fix this with strikes. And raiders make up such a low percentage of players. i don't have actual numbers, but based on what i've seen and read across a variety of MMOs, that number is less than 5%, probably less than .01%  here in GW2. You can see the same effect of these toxic behaviors in sPvP mode: very low population. So instead of trying to crown the 10 spoiled rotten brats, they decided to focus the content design to the  other 10,000 players, while still developing content for the brats.

TLDR: the raiding community is its own worst enemy for new raids.

the original dev team understood this, and designed GW2 as a place where people could come to avoid that toxicity, with things like map metas and world bosses. i'd say that the current team, after trying raids for awhile, has learned the lesson that Raids are too exclusive, and that map metas allow everyone to experience end-game content in a giant raid, without all the exclusion from instanced raids. They allow drop-in drop-out participation, which is what Blizzard tried to add to Diablo, but the feature still pales in comparison with GW2's large map populations.

And that's all i have to say about that...

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

the problem... is that the jerks who treat people as you describe are killing interest in raiding in EVERY game... and that toxicity is exactly why the original community (with the exception of the MMO-hoppers) actually asked Anet to NOT add raids. So they added Fractals. And the raid community still complained they didn't have their exclusive rewards. Then with Hot they added raids, and the raid community doubled down on their toxicity. the exclusionary behavior got worse. Anet tried to fix this with strikes. And raiders make up such a low percentage of players. i don't have actual numbers, but based on what i've seen and read across a variety of MMOs, that number is less than 5%, probably less than .01%  here in GW2. You can see the same effect of these toxic behaviors in sPvP mode: very low population. So instead of trying to crown the 10 spoiled rotten brats, they decided to focus the content design to the  other 10,000 players, while still developing content for the brats.

TLDR: the raiding community is its own worst enemy for new raids.

the original dev team understood this, and designed GW2 as a place where people could come to avoid that toxicity, with things like map metas and world bosses. i'd say that the current team, after trying raids for awhile, has learned the lesson that Raids are too exclusive, and that map metas allow everyone to experience end-game content in a giant raid, without all the exclusion from instanced raids. They allow drop-in drop-out participation, which is what Blizzard tried to add to Diablo, but the feature still pales in comparison with GW2's large map populations.

And that's all i have to say about that...

I agree with the toxicity part, but just want to point out the open world metas will not be the alternatives of fractals and raids. In fractal and raids, you can see each person's contribution much more clearly and the impact of your work is what makes it fun (at least for me). You won't see the impact of your work when you're with 50-100 others doing the same things as you in meta and that part is EXTREME:Y boring for me. By no means I say open world metas are bad. I enjoy those metas with good stories behind them and that's why I repeat some of them, but just wanted to highlight the difference from the 5-man or 10-man contents.

Edited by Furball.1236
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Renegated.4132 said:

The problem, as you said, comes with the fact that they don't want to use resources on something not everyone likes, but what they refuse to understand it's that if raids failed, was because of them refusing to punish bad attitudes such as "You're doing 1K less damage, go kitten yourself", obviously when people saw that, they simply left. They are getting chances to amend the fail again and again, and instead of using them to give the players more instanced content to play, that at the end of the day, it's what makes an MMO work, they prefer to look away. 

I love when players always blame others for not taking or accepting subpar game play. There have been raid trainings for years, usually organized by more veteran players. The willingness or desire for new players to enter raids has never been supported as much as it has been in the last few years.

I'll be perceived as toxic here but I'll still ask you a direct question, since you feel justified to complain about others "asking for 1k dps more".

You've cleared Wing 1 this week so far and cudos for doing so on heal tempest. Yet have you ever actually looked at your personal performance?

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/5cc00-20240520-232039_sab_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/abcb3-20240520-223105_vg_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/556a6-20240520-224446_gors_kill

You make it sound as though the issue is with 1k dps differences, when I can tell you right now, those boons you provided as support will have cost your subgroup a loss of 20-30k at least (average Might at sub 10, personal alacrity at around 40-50%, Protection uptime of 20%).

The issue here is not 1k dps, the issue is different players playing on different levels and expecting different performance. It's never been about 1k dps. It's always been about someone slacking off significantly, usually first noticed in dps numbers, seldom noticed when supports are kitten.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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Fractals and Strikes already fully reutilize assets (fractals even got downgraded into being just reused assets this time around...), so we have to assume there is simply no resources for another content branch even if 90% of all active players were active raiders too.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I love when players always blame others for not taking or accepting subpar game play. There have been raid trainings for years, usually organized by more veteran players. The willingness or desire for new players to enter raids has never been supported as much as it has been in the last few years.

I'll be perceived as toxic here but I'll still ask you a direct question, since you feel justified to complain about others "asking for 1k dps more".

You've cleared Wing 1 this week so far and cudos for doing so on heal tempest. Yet have you ever actually looked at your personal performance?

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/5cc00-20240520-232039_sab_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/abcb3-20240520-223105_vg_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/556a6-20240520-224446_gors_kill

You make it sound as though the issue is with 1k dps differences, when I can tell you right now, those boons you provided as support will have cost your subgroup a loss of 20-30k at least (average Might at sub 10, personal alacrity at around 40-50%, Protection uptime of 20%.

The issue here is not 1k dps, the issue is different players playing on different levels and expecting different performance. It's never been about 1k dps. It's always been about someone slacking off significantly, usually first noticed in dps numbers, seldom noticed when supports are kitten.

Mate, the "1K dps" issue I mentioned was when raids got released, that most commanders thought that everyone was qT or SC, that essentially have muscular memory for their rotations, and, if you did 1K less than the average damage those 2 guilds said you could do, you could get instakicked because "You were doing it wrong".

 

And when it comes to the wings I've cleared this week, I made it with a newbie squad, I joined as a TANK heal tempest, you can't expect me doing certain things when my equipment prevents me from doing that.

PD: I don't give a kitten about the DPS, if the boss goes down, I don't care if people does 1000 or 10000, the objective it's completed.

Edited by Renegated.4132
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1 minute ago, Renegated.4132 said:

Mate, the "1K dps" issue I mentioned was when raids got released, that most commanders thought that everyone was qT or SC, that essentially have muscular memory for their rotations, and, if you did 1K less than the average damage those 2 guilds said you could do, you could get instakicked because "You were doing it wrong".

I raidef when raids came out, starting week 2.

What you are claiming is simply not true. It never has been about 1k dps.

1 minute ago, Renegated.4132 said:

And when it comes to the wings I've cleared this week, I made it with a newbie squad, I joined as a TANK heal tempest, you can't expect me doing certain things when my equipment prevents me from doing that.

Minstrel gear would disagree and besides VG, which fine you might not be experienced enough to tank on 1,005t, which boss are you tanking in W1? Gorse does no damage, Sabetha has no tanking mechanic.

You are close to 1k LI. You are "helping" a newby squad and your subgroup has far worse boons than the others.

Sorry, not buying it. As mentioned though, I was just trying to prove a point.

1 minute ago, Renegated.4132 said:

PD: I don't give a kitten about the DPS, if the boss goes down, I don't care if people does 1000 or 10000, the objective it's completed.

Fair enough, others do especially more vetean players.

I just took issue with the once again bs claim that there is this magical gating happening around 1-2k dps. 

Any new player with a minimal understanding of this combat system and ability to engage with others and join trainings has been able to get into raids for years.

What needs to stop is making these nonsensical excuses around made up claims.

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5 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I raidef when raids came out, starting week 2.

What you are claiming is simply not true. It never has been about 1k dps.

Minstrel gear would disagree and besides VG, which fine you might not be experienced enough to tank on 1,005t, which boss are you tanking in W1? Gorse does no damage, Sabetha has no tanking mechanic.

You are close to 1k LI. You are "helping" a newby squad and your subgroup has far worse boons than the others.

Sorry, not buying it. As mentioned though, I was just trying to prove a point.

Fair enough, others do especially more vetean players.

I just took issue with the once again bs claim that there is this magical gating happening around 1-2k dps. 

Any new player with a minimal understanding of this combat system and ability to engage with others and join trainings has been able to get into raids for years.

What needs to stop is making these nonsensical excuses around made up claims.

I also come from when raids got released, and believe me, I've seen people having to ping ALL THEIR GEAR and be kicked for basically do 1-2K less of damage. ¿You didn't find that on your server? Good, but on Europe that was vietnam.

And If i'm full minstrel it's because if i'm going to tank, I want A TANK.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

I also come from when raids got released, and believe me, I've seen people having to ping ALL THEIR GEAR and be kicked for basically do 1-2K less of damage. ¿You didn't find that on your server? Good, but on Europe that was vietnam.

And If i'm full minstrel it's because if i'm going to tank, I want A TANK.

Server? We were on a megaserver system by the time raids released and given most players weren't even running dps meters, and the ones available were very unreliable (BGDM being the more accurtae one but requiring every memeber running it), most exclusion happened based around incorrect assumptions. 

What is true is that elementalist was difficult to play and the gap between decent and poor elementalist was there (and it wasn't 1k).

Full minstrel does not prevent you on giving proper boons.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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15 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Server? We were on a megaserver system by the time raids released and given most players weren't even running dps meters, and the ones available were very unreliable (BGDM being the more accurtae one but requiring every memeber running it), most exclusion happened based around incorrect assumptions. 

What is true is that elementalist eas difficult to play and the gap between decent and poor elementalist was there (and it wasn't 1k).

Full minstrel does not prevent you on giving proper boons.

My fault then, but the fact that you didn't live certain situations doesn't exclude them from existence. And when it comes to the boons yeah, it can always be better.

 

Anyway, the topic was about using the excuse of Isgarren having "Instances" where they can test what would happen when X condition is applied to a specific area to create new raids based on community suggestions or even try to somehow port the GW1 raids onto GW2.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

My fault then, but the fact that you didn't live certain situations doesn't exclude them from existence. And when it comes to the boons yeah, it can always be better.

True, and I get that you were being hyperbolic a bit, which is fine. The issue being some players to this stay still believe this.

The best approach here is total honestly with new players or players interested in instanced content, which is: if you prepare a bit, get down some fundamentals of how this games combat works, most anyone will be fine.

5 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

Anyway, the topic was about using the excuse of Isgarren having "Instances" where they can test what would happen when X condition is applied to a specific area to create new raids based on community suggestions or even try to somehow port the GW1 raids onto GW2.

and I fully agree and support you on this. I wish Arenanet did take another shot at raids, especially with the way easier and most accessible environment the game is at today (especially builds and balance wise).

Even emboldened mode is a great addition to increase accessibility today, mirroring WoWs LFR mode coming delayed  for new raids.

I guess the biggest issue here is simply commitment and resources on the developers side and for all we know, their approach with strikes is working for them.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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2 hours ago, Furball.1236 said:

I agree with the toxicity part, but just want to point out the open world metas will not be the alternatives of fractals and raids. In fractal and raids, you can see each person's contribution much more clearly and the impact of your work is what makes it fun (at least for me). You won't see the impact of your work when you're with 50-100 others doing the same things as you in meta and that part is EXTREME:Y boring for me. By no means I say open world metas are bad. I enjoy those metas with good stories behind them and that's why I repeat some of them, but just wanted to highlight the difference from the 5-man or 10-man contents.

I wasn't implying that they're the same. They're not. Open world metas wouldn't exist without raids, because metas were developed as an alternative due to the "exclusivity toxicity." Fractals and Strikes were also developed for the same reason: more accessible end-game with less toxicity.

All i was saying was that the raiding community shot themselves in the foot with their exclusionary behavior.

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21 minutes ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

I wasn't implying that they're the same. They're not. Open world metas wouldn't exist without raids, because metas were developed as an alternative due to the "exclusivity toxicity." Fractals and Strikes were also developed for the same reason: more accessible end-game with less toxicity.

All i was saying was that the raiding community shot themselves in the foot with their exclusionary behavior.

Here the guilt falls on both sides, on the community for being jerks and on ArenaNet that, despide seeing how the jerks took raids for themselves, they turned the blind eye on it. Normally on this kind of situations someone would hit the banhammer so hard that they would provoke a server reset, but for some strange reason, nothing changed until it was too late.

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1 hour ago, Renegated.4132 said:

Here the guilt falls on both sides, on the community for being jerks and on ArenaNet that, despide seeing how the jerks took raids for themselves

It's not the job of every raid player to be willing to play with complete newbies everytime they raid. It's a weekly clear for most people, and they want it to go smoothly. The raid scene died out after Anet stopped releasing content. It's the developer's job to provide stepping stones and to provide a framework for people to learn it.

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13 minutes ago, ZenDrake.8316 said:

It's not the job of every raid player to be willing to play with complete newbies everytime they raid. It's a weekly clear for most people, and they want it to go smoothly. The raid scene died out after Anet stopped releasing content. It's the developer's job to provide stepping stones and to provide a framework for people to learn it.

True, for that there's the training zone, but still, one thing is kicking someone that it's underperforming deeply and the other one is, as I said, what happened on some raids, that the commander suddenly growed a mustache and raised it's arm. One thing is ask for profesionalness and the other one is being an kitten, and when raids started, the second ones were majority, something that got fixed with the time, but the damage it did still remains.

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2 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

True, for that there's the training zone, but still, one thing is kicking someone that it's underperforming deeply and the other one is, as I said, what happened on some raids, that the commander suddenly growed a mustache and raised it's arm. One thing is ask for profesionalness and the other one is being an kitten, and when raids started, the second ones were majority, something that got fixed with the time, but the damage it did still remains.

Bad experiences aside, one part of the truth is, that Arena.Net have their own share in that matter. They made the game ultra casual friendly, basicly no performance checks anywhere (only exception being Arah explorer mode to some extend). Then they gave the players no tools to monitor their performance and again, no incentive to do so. What happened? Even when there were only dungeons, players got excluded for playing the "wrong" class or by sheer asumption. Implementing raids while not providing the tools just made it worse. Is that an excuse for players acting like complete jackkitten? Certainly not. But it was also no surprise it happened and bad reputation rose up. 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see new raid wings, imo raids are far superior to strikes and I'm still having fun doing them. But in the current state and direction of the game, I don't see this happen. If they really wanted to put a focus on instanced party/squad content, they'd implemented ArcDPS long ago already and didn't go for the lazy "let's recycle story stuff and call it strikes" route.

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4 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

I wasn't implying that they're the same. They're not. Open world metas wouldn't exist without raids, because metas were developed as an alternative due to the "exclusivity toxicity." Fractals and Strikes were also developed for the same reason: more accessible end-game with less toxicity.

All i was saying was that the raiding community shot themselves in the foot with their exclusionary behavior.

Everything you wrote is untrue. Raids didnt have any influence for adding metas because first (Silverwastes) was added before HoT and raids, and all expansions maps came with metas at same time as raids. Fractals were added 3years before HoT, so again nothing to do with raids. And they switched to strikes simpy because of lack of manpower, they couldnt deliver that much content so instead of 3-4bosses per wing they started adding 1boss recycled from story mission. In what way switching to strikes would help with toxicity?

Imo raids failed simpy because of lack of difficulty settings. It was impossible to complete by avarange open world player and too easy for avarange raid enjoyer.

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13 minutes ago, Kitty.4806 said:

The raid team does not work at Anet anymore. The tools and resources are unknown to the current developers. It wouldn't be possible.

The tools are the same they are using right now to do strikes, for they are the same they use in general to do the maps. The problem it's that they don't have a division meant to do raids or instanced content in general.

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If they bring a new raid with full recycled map, bosses, mechanics and animations. That would be even more dissapointing than SoTo. And seeing all the content since Gyala Delve i dont think we will get anything better till GW3.

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