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The lore of teleports


DarkK.7368

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The Commander can freely teleport to any Asura waypoint (that is not contested) from anywhere, but... how does that fit in the world? A high percentage of quests would be trivial if people could just teleport to places. Protecting dolyaks or hurt people, bringing supplies from one place to another... Why the world arround us doesn't use teleports?

As in-lore, we have two kinds of teleports. The OP blue ones, and the big Asura gates. People do use Asura gates, and that fits lore. At least for Core Tyria where am I, we've seen the pact trying to get control of the Asura gates to bring troops. So... why couldn't troops just teleport to a blue Asura teleport like us?

The only thing that fits here is that we, the Commander, have some unique ability to use Asura teleports. Others can't. Even if near one, cannot use it to teleport to another. I don't like the "I'm special" argument, specially when in-game it's not stated anywhere. This makes ther world very inconsistent and sometimes its hard to believe in the plot.

I just started Living World 1.

Spoiler

And we see Braham in trouble because its city is being attacked, and Knut cannot bring help and leave Hoelbrak alone. Why cannot the GREAT LEADER OF HOELBRACK, POWERFUL character, teleport in and out like us, to help, and return fast to hoelbrak? Enemies even did appear from portals!

But that brings more questions. Why Asuras don't make a lot more of Asura gates? It's true Asura gates are something tricky and difficult to make and maintain, we've seen. But they have a fckn floating city. And with al these years, it would be normal for them to have lot of Asura gates, to have the world super connected and get rich with a small fee to fund investigations.

And yes. Distinction between gameplay and lore and mechanics, I know. But this time, teleports are 100% inserted into the plot. Asuras made those blue teleports. Literally. So how do they suddenly don't exist for other people?

What do you think?

Edited by DarkK.7368
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The reality is, waypoints are a gameplay feature that don't really have a strong foundation in the lore. Yes, they try to play with them in the story and give them some background, but ultimately they're just a gameplay feature that fits haphazardly into the world building.

The best explanation I've seen that I liked was that waypoints are prohibitively expensive to use, and so only those people with an exceptional amount of wealth could afford them; our Commander being one of those people.

Another idea is that waypoints are a form of magical transport that requires some amount of proficiency to access and use effectively, again limiting their use to the select people skilled enough to do so.

3rdly, Asura tech across the board can be viewed as dangerous and finnicky, so therefore being magically transported halfway across the planet with questionable tech would be a no-go for most who value the assurance of their continued existence.

The most concrete explanation is that the Asura don't like to let other people touch their stuff, so they are mostly off limits to the general populace.

I'm sure others in this forum could point you to better stuff, though.

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Waypoints, and Asura Gates both cost money to use. Not everybody is overflowing with cash.

Waypoints require you to be directly near them to use them. Every single time an NPC uses a waypoint, they are standing directly under it. Accessing waypoints from anywhere or while downed is purely a gameplay quality of life.

Waypoints can't ferry cargo as far as we can see. An example is in Orr we have a convoy go by land to secure/supply a camp, and then a waypoint is setup which delivers troops. But Dolyak/ox convoys are required to keep the front supplied.

54 minutes ago, DarkK.7368 said:
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And we see Braham in trouble because its city is being attacked, and Knut cannot bring help and leave Hoelbrak alone. Why cannot the GREAT LEADER OF HOELBRACK, POWERFUL character, teleport in and out like us, to help, and return fast to hoelbrak? Enemies even did appear from portals!

 

The point of this is that Craigstead is under threat, but the danger of the Molten Alliance is that they appear and attack at complete random. Knut cannot devote a chunk of forces to head out to Craigstead and secure it without running the risk of an attack happening at Hoelbrek. Hoelbrek was also being strained with supplies due to Refugees.

 

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1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

The best explanation I've seen that I liked was that waypoints are prohibitively expensive to use, and so only those people with an exceptional amount of wealth could afford them; our Commander being one of those people.

Another idea is that waypoints are a form of magical transport that requires some amount of proficiency to access and use effectively, again limiting their use to the select people skilled enough to do so.

56 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Waypoints, and Asura Gates both cost money to use. Not everybody is overflowing with cash.

First one is not entirely true. It costs less than 3 silver per use. Hiring mercenaries to defend your caravan is surely a lot more costly. Or dying. Anyone would just need 3 silver to teleport to an hospital from anywhere.

I really like second point. Makes sense. That's why we are "special" as the commander. We are just strong and magical enough.

57 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Waypoints require you to be directly near them to use them. Every single time an NPC uses a waypoint, they are standing directly under it. Accessing waypoints from anywhere or while downed is purely a gameplay quality of life.

Waypoints can't ferry cargo as far as we can see. An example is in Orr we have a convoy go by land to secure/supply a camp, and then a waypoint is setup which delivers troops. But Dolyak/ox convoys are required to keep the front supplied.

Thanks, I forgot that point!!! People DO USE Asura teleports, but they require to walk and touch one, so they can use it!! I suppose some explanation is that only sentient beings can use it, or something like that. You do require a good brain so the portal can "work with you and your belongings". Though then, people could use it to bring supplies (the bag they carry) with multiple travels, so... kinda still plothole hahaha

Thanks for the responses, people

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Regarding the expense factor:

First, while never explicitly stated, I suspect the PC's use is subsidised somehow. Any PC that doesn't already have some sort of sponsor gets one when they become part of an organisation. We get gate travel for free (which the general population doesn't) and our waypoint fees are probably at cost when the general public also needs to cover whatever profit the asura want to make (and that's probably not insignificant).

In that context... for a typical civilian, a few silver is probably still a lot. Consider that the unscaled reward for most escort events is still in the copper range, it's entirely likely that hiring a couple of guards to defend a caravan is still much cheaper than moving the same quantity of goods via teleporting back and forth using waypoints. It's also worth noting that gameplay makes the world feel a lot more dangerous than it is in the novels - most caravans probably don't actually face several waves of attackers unless they're crossing dragon minion territory.

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If Asura Gates and Waypoints are like taking cross continental flights, then the Commander is either loaded or super subsidized. But considering the average thing you kill drops at most few silvers, not even amounting to a single gold, it can be assumed that anyone with even a 100 gold is basically royalty. 

In fact, the history of Gold value in Gw2 can also be felt if you were a launch player in the past. Back then, people dealt in silvers and coppers too, and there wasn't really that much of an economy for players to have several thousands of gold like today. Back then, having 1g in your pocket was a nice stack of dosh. Having 10g in your pocket was a small fortune. Having 100g in your pocket was RICHES. 

So if we take launch Gw2 gold value as the "lore value" of Gold, then the Commanders of today are stinking, filthy, horrendously, atrociously, rich. 

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On 5/23/2024 at 5:33 PM, DarkK.7368 said:

First one is not entirely true. It costs less than 3 silver per use. Hiring mercenaries to defend your caravan is surely a lot more costly. Or dying. Anyone would just need 3 silver to teleport to an hospital from anywhere.

Thanks, I forgot that point!!! People DO USE Asura teleports, but they require to walk and touch one, so they can use it!! I suppose some explanation is that only sentient beings can use it, or something like that. You do require a good brain so the portal can "work with you and your belongings". Though then, people could use it to bring supplies (the bag they carry) with multiple travels, so... kinda still plothole hahaha

 

You don't get teleported to the hospital when knocked out though. Also, imagine 3 silver per waypoint trip. You need to delivery 10 crates(each crate can be carried by a single person) from DR to say... Ascalon Settlement. That's 60 silver already. Add in a bulk/cargo fee for the crates, you have even more cost as that counts for 10 of the waypoint trips (assuming you don't bring the crates back with other goods). In Old LA you can see a Charr arguing with an Asura over the fees for shipping crates by Asura gates, and in Rurikton you have people complain about the fees as well IIRC. So they'd have a bulk/cargo fee on waypoints too.

So you are already pushing possible a gold just to do this, and it's even worse. Let's say you don't live by the waypoint in DR, and the delivery point isn't near the waypoint in Ascalon settlement. Now you gotta carry each box to the waypoint, and through it. And hope the crates don't get stolen from either side or have contents yanked.

Or you could go, load up your cart/wagon and get the horse/dolyak/ox to pull it and travel by the roads. Hire a few guards or simply do what a lot of events ingame do. "Hey, you headed to Ascalon Settlement or in that direction? How about we travel together!" Probably save money and you can maybe fit in some extra deliveries to places along the way.

23 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Regarding the expense factor:

First, while never explicitly stated, I suspect the PC's use is subsidised somehow. Any PC that doesn't already have some sort of sponsor gets one when they become part of an organisation. We get gate travel for free (which the general population doesn't) and our waypoint fees are probably at cost when the general public also needs to cover whatever profit the asura want to make (and that's probably not insignificant).

In that context... for a typical civilian, a few silver is probably still a lot. Consider that the unscaled reward for most escort events is still in the copper range, it's entirely likely that hiring a couple of guards to defend a caravan is still much cheaper than moving the same quantity of goods via teleporting back and forth using waypoints. It's also worth noting that gameplay makes the world feel a lot more dangerous than it is in the novels - most caravans probably don't actually face several waves of attackers unless they're crossing dragon minion territory.

It's a solid theory, the Asura gates in the order bases and all. I do think we probably pay for Asura gates and that's purely a gameplay thing though. It makes sense that the orders have some deal with the Asura about it though. 

Also, people will do overland caravans vs Asura gate travel because of the costs. And the Lionguard typically keep the Lion's road (an extensive road network) in good condition and mostly safe. While the Centaurs broke the deal a few times, they did have a "treaty" that they'd leave Caravans alone.

Plus we can easily and reasonable assume Asura waypoints aren't as spread out as they are in the core map, probably more akin to the later campaigns/living stories were a waypoint is in a settlement and safe.

14 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

If Asura Gates and Waypoints are like taking cross continental flights, then the Commander is either loaded or super subsidized. But considering the average thing you kill drops at most few silvers, not even amounting to a single gold, it can be assumed that anyone with even a 100 gold is basically royalty. 

In fact, the history of Gold value in Gw2 can also be felt if you were a launch player in the past. Back then, people dealt in silvers and coppers too, and there wasn't really that much of an economy for players to have several thousands of gold like today. Back then, having 1g in your pocket was a nice stack of dosh. Having 10g in your pocket was a small fortune. Having 100g in your pocket was RICHES. 

So if we take launch Gw2 gold value as the "lore value" of Gold, then the Commanders of today are stinking, filthy, horrendously, atrociously, rich. 

In general, it should be noted that the Commander as a character is better off then a lot of soldiers and mercs. And civilians.

And even the Commander rides trains/public transport like ships.

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On 5/23/2024 at 3:35 PM, DarkK.7368 said:

The Commander can freely teleport to any Asura waypoint (that is not contested) from anywhere, but... how does that fit in the world? A high percentage of quests would be trivial if people could just teleport to places. Protecting dolyaks or hurt people, bringing supplies from one place to another... Why the world arround us doesn't use teleports?

As in-lore, we have two kinds of teleports. The OP blue ones, and the big Asura gates. People do use Asura gates, and that fits lore. At least for Core Tyria where am I, we've seen the pact trying to get control of the Asura gates to bring troops. So... why couldn't troops just teleport to a blue Asura teleport like us?

The only thing that fits here is that we, the Commander, have some unique ability to use Asura teleports. Others can't. Even if near one, cannot use it to teleport to another. I don't like the "I'm special" argument, specially when in-game it's not stated anywhere. This makes ther world very inconsistent and sometimes its hard to believe in the plot.

I just started Living World 1.

  Reveal hidden contents

And we see Braham in trouble because its city is being attacked, and Knut cannot bring help and leave Hoelbrak alone. Why cannot the GREAT LEADER OF HOELBRACK, POWERFUL character, teleport in and out like us, to help, and return fast to hoelbrak? Enemies even did appear from portals!

But that brings more questions. Why Asuras don't make a lot more of Asura gates? It's true Asura gates are something tricky and difficult to make and maintain, we've seen. But they have a fckn floating city. And with al these years, it would be normal for them to have lot of Asura gates, to have the world super connected and get rich with a small fee to fund investigations.

And yes. Distinction between gameplay and lore and mechanics, I know. But this time, teleports are 100% inserted into the plot. Asuras made those blue teleports. Literally. So how do they suddenly don't exist for other people?

What do you think?

Waypoints as players can use them are a fundamental gameplay mechanic which functions vastly differently for NPCs.

An easy point to see how NPCs use waypoints is in Camp Resolve or Lion's Arch - NPCs have to walk underneath a waypoint in order to use them, they can't just teleport to any waypoint from any direction. Additionally, it is implied that waypoints require direct interaction, so animals wouldn't be able to use them - or wouldn't have an easy time using them. Plus there is the matter of every user needing to have been to the destination before.

On top of this, waypoints cost a lot to the average Tyrian - one may think a couple silver is cheap, but in lore it's implied that such an amount could be a full paycheck (or there abouts) - assuming that the cost for waypoint usage in lore is even that amount. Asura gates, though free to players mechanically, also cost money to use - and it's a small fortune to use for merchants carrying cargo; I imagine waypoints, if such can even transport cargo, is much the same.

Ultimately the reason why so many merchants use the more dangerous route is money and feasibility - it's cheaper to travel the road than to pay the asura government for use of waypoints.

There'd also be the matter of trust - it's a small point in LWS2 that waypoints stopped wokring (sadly most of this was in temporary content form so it's not very evident in-game now), but there is a bit of dialogue referencing this that has remained:

Seraph Soldier Amria: Seems the waypoints are working again.
Seraph Soldier Jene: That's what I've heard.
Seraph Soldier Amria: You haven't tried to use one either, huh?
Seraph Soldier Jene: I can't. When I remember how those vines were so focused on them... Are they really safe?
Seraph Soldier Amria: I know what you mean.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vandal's_Claim

So even if a merchant could use them, they may not trust them because they are known to have moments of failure.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2024 at 3:35 PM, DarkK.7368 said:

The Commander can freely teleport to any Asura waypoint (that is not contested) from anywhere, but... how does that fit in the world? A high percentage of quests would be trivial if people could just teleport to places. Protecting dolyaks or hurt people, bringing supplies from one place to another... Why the world arround us doesn't use teleports?

As in-lore, we have two kinds of teleports. The OP blue ones, and the big Asura gates. People do use Asura gates, and that fits lore. At least for Core Tyria where am I, we've seen the pact trying to get control of the Asura gates to bring troops. So... why couldn't troops just teleport to a blue Asura teleport like us?

The only thing that fits here is that we, the Commander, have some unique ability to use Asura teleports. Others can't. Even if near one, cannot use it to teleport to another. I don't like the "I'm special" argument, specially when in-game it's not stated anywhere. This makes ther world very inconsistent and sometimes its hard to believe in the plot.

I just started Living World 1.

  Reveal hidden contents

And we see Braham in trouble because its city is being attacked, and Knut cannot bring help and leave Hoelbrak alone. Why cannot the GREAT LEADER OF HOELBRACK, POWERFUL character, teleport in and out like us, to help, and return fast to hoelbrak? Enemies even did appear from portals!

But that brings more questions. Why Asuras don't make a lot more of Asura gates? It's true Asura gates are something tricky and difficult to make and maintain, we've seen. But they have a fckn floating city. And with al these years, it would be normal for them to have lot of Asura gates, to have the world super connected and get rich with a small fee to fund investigations.

And yes. Distinction between gameplay and lore and mechanics, I know. But this time, teleports are 100% inserted into the plot. Asuras made those blue teleports. Literally. So how do they suddenly don't exist for other people?

What do you think?

You can see NPCs using waypoints in several maps and they are also said to be an Asura invention. So they do exist in-universe, in the lore, and interact with the world. You can see Mordremoth and the Kryptis corrupting waypoints and rendering them unusable. 

Edited by Tom.8029
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13 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

and the Kryptis corrupting waypoints

Where and when do we see Kryptis corrupting waypoints?

13 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

they are also said to be an Asura invention.

There are also non-asuran alternatives - jade waypoints in Cantha, and Astral waypoints in SotO areas.

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57 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

Where and when do we see Kryptis corrupting waypoints?

There are also non-asuran alternatives - jade waypoints in Cantha, and Astral waypoints in SotO areas.

You can see a kryptis goop covered waypoints I believe in the bastions during events that block them off, and in a few others?

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2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You can see a kryptis goop covered waypoints I believe in the bastions during events that block them off, and in a few others?

I see I guess I must have missed that detail when I was there 🙂

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In dragonfall they establish the camps and are moving the waypoint with them. So an waypoint needs to move there. 

Also you first need to have fysically reached the waypoint. I dont think a lot of npc's have ever left their close surroundings.. although in guildhalls, new npcs suddenly travel via waypoints when they never were there before. So now i doubt my second statement.. 

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14 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

Where and when do we see Kryptis corrupting waypoints?

There are also non-asuran alternatives - jade waypoints in Cantha, and Astral waypoints in SotO areas.

You can see Kryptis-corrupted waypoints in SoTO maps. Amnytas, for example, in the Bastion of the Celestial.  And jade waypoints were invented by Canthans.  The others, created by the Astral Ward. 

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Beware spoilers for Season 2 and Heart of Thorns in my post.

To understand Waypoints, you need to take it back to the beginning, when the original team was conceptualizing Guild Wars 2. One of the design pillars was, "players shouldn't have to wait to have fun" and thus from the necessity of reaching anywhere on the map in under a minute they came up with Waypoints, these absolutely littered the landscape but never much was given to them on how they'd truly impact the world.

Fast forward to Season 2 and it's evident that with the story Anet was trying to raise the stakes, make the antagonist more of an immediate threat and what's the one thing every player in the game used all the time? Waypoints, to this day some of them are still permanently disabled from Season 2, this was went more thought on them was given lore wise.

The explanation given was once upon a time, the Asura were placing these all over the place, some worked, some didn't, they removed the ones that didn't, ultimately they ended up unknowingly tapping the ley line streams.

So to your question, the answer is there's no good answer, this wasn't well thought out pure and simple.

Some say they're too expensive to use, but when nobles were in an airship headed for Mordremoth (why were nobles in a military airship in a military campaign to begin with, and why did they went over land when they could have gone around over water directly to it...) And that ship falls, those nobles don't waypoint back, instead they just follow generic girlboss to build a camp and anchor down, you'd think they could afford to pull out...

Others say only ballers have the juice to use it, but how many times have we seen baller characters not use them when they'd be smart to... ?

At the end of the day, how ever way you spin it, it's just a gameplay feature that should have never been made part of the lore and trying to explain it just makes the whole thing crumble, just pretend it's gameplay only.

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On 5/29/2024 at 12:09 AM, Trejgon.9367 said:

I'd say that's purely gameplay feature.

But Living World S2 and also SoTO made it lore. If we look at the dialogue within Convergences:

Zojja: Portaled in as soon as we lost track of your astral fluctuation. I'll need to focus on maintaining our tether to Tyria.
Zojja: The nearest waypoint is a little out of range, so reviving will be a challenge... Luckily, Mabon taught me a few tricks.
Zojja: Resurrection spells take a lot of magic. The best source of that here is going to be the essence that Eparch's grunts drop.

What we see here is, that Waypoints and even the fact, that you can revive with them is absolutely lore!

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On 6/7/2024 at 4:27 AM, Mr Istom.5426 said:

But Living World S2 and also SoTO made it lore. If we look at the dialogue within Convergences:

Zojja: Portaled in as soon as we lost track of your astral fluctuation. I'll need to focus on maintaining our tether to Tyria.
Zojja: The nearest waypoint is a little out of range, so reviving will be a challenge... Luckily, Mabon taught me a few tricks.
Zojja: Resurrection spells take a lot of magic. The best source of that here is going to be the essence that Eparch's grunts drop.

What we see here is, that Waypoints and even the fact, that you can revive with them is absolutely lore!

That line of dialogue is a bit contradictory to previously established canon lore, however, since reviving != resurrection. Player characters do not die (except in a handful of scripted events) but merely fall unconscious. This is why we can never resurrect NPCs in the story - resurrection magic is a lost art. This is why the Commander coming back to life in Path of Fire is a BIG DEAL - because such hasn't happened for over 100+ years.

Of course it makes some sense that the Wizards would have access to lost art, and Zojja can't just willy-nilly resurrect people. But waypoints do not bring back the dead, and Zojja's dialogue is treating revival like resurrection.

Revival magic is a thing in actual lore, as one of the events in Snowden Drifts brings it up, but it isn't bringing back the dead - it's waking people who're unconscious.

Which is why I rather dislike the UI change for reviving downed and defeated players, where the latter was changed to "resurrect" as part of making it easier for players to differentiate between the two... Would have been better to rename reviving for downed players "Heal" or something, more lore friendly.

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6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That line of dialogue is a bit contradictory to previously established canon lore, however, since reviving != resurrection. Player characters do not die (except in a handful of scripted events) but merely fall unconscious. This is why we can never resurrect NPCs in the story - resurrection magic is a lost art. This is why the Commander coming back to life in Path of Fire is a BIG DEAL - because such hasn't happened for over 100+ years.

Of course it makes some sense that the Wizards would have access to lost art, and Zojja can't just willy-nilly resurrect people. But waypoints do not bring back the dead, and Zojja's dialogue is treating revival like resurrection.

Revival magic is a thing in actual lore, as one of the events in Snowden Drifts brings it up, but it isn't bringing back the dead - it's waking people who're unconscious.

Which is why I rather dislike the UI change for reviving downed and defeated players, where the latter was changed to "resurrect" as part of making it easier for players to differentiate between the two... Would have been better to rename reviving for downed players "Heal" or something, more lore friendly.

Doesn't the starting rift say something about "No single wayfinder" as well? The convergences in general seem to be of weird mid-canon status, as they aren't referenced in the storyline either.

The best way I'd take it is that the Astral ward developed an emergency self-teleport one could activate, but in general I'd probably take that line as ? status. 

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The convergences are essentially larger-scale versions of a story mission - but it is noteworthy that we don't really see any reference to them while we're in Inner Nayos. It's possible that they're supposed to be happening in Outer Nayos and that they're essentially large-scale raids by the Astral Ward, but that's somewhat incongruous with the narrative in the Nayos story that the Astral Ward is mostly staying out of it apart from a few volunteers. 

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9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The convergences are essentially larger-scale versions of a story mission - but it is noteworthy that we don't really see any reference to them while we're in Inner Nayos. It's possible that they're supposed to be happening in Outer Nayos and that they're essentially large-scale raids by the Astral Ward, but that's somewhat incongruous with the narrative in the Nayos story that the Astral Ward is mostly staying out of it apart from a few volunteers. 

I'm partially tempted to have convergences considered the same as strikes. Neat things but not really canon. At least until they officially say anything.

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