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The Crisis of World Restructuring and why it will destroy WvW: Everything outside of one guild will be shifting sand


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1 hour ago, gerberlyfe.9736 said:

It's over for WvW. ArenaNet destroyed it.

Well I am surprised you are saying this rn. WvW are mostly empty outside reset hrs. Roaming is kindda dead after game became too casual and organized wvw guilds are almost non-existent compared to its prime time.
Having alliance have zero impact on the way players play because... well you know, the game got too casual. Just find a tag and spam aoes. Majority of the groups I saw recently were pugs. 
More serious factor that destroyed wvw is lack of content. That's all. Same map/rules/npcs/items etc for ~10yrs will make even most dedicated players to quit. 

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This is gonna be a big change, and a painful one. I've been on my server for 5+ years and there's an awful lot of friendly names, public tags, and in-jokes which I'll miss.

But I'm not as pessimistic as the OP. I'm seeing guilds form quasi-alliances, with 4+ guilds joining one 'mega guild' of 500 people. That's an awful lot of like-minded players to group up with. I expect this will become the norm, and you may have smaller guilds forming out of those and maybe branching off. It's not everyone I hang out with, but it's most, and it might be fun to see them on the battlefield in the future or rejoin them later.

Biggest point is that WvW has been stale for years. Linking damaged communities. Matchups are predictable.

I'm willing to try something new at this point.

But god, who knew they'd get round to this just when the meta is at its worse for years, potentially undermining something potentially really interesting.

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The doom is just oozing from this OP.

Meanwhile back in reality, we already had half a dozen beta weeks and WvW was pretty normal despite not being given time to settle, people setting up their communities properly or getting bugged assignments.

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I am not too worried about this "shifting sand" issue.
The entire point of competitive modes is the chaos, and having the entire system shaken like this MAY provide some much needed chaos again.
If I wanted mostly predictable enemies whom I can always expect to win against, with set bases to take...Id play Drizzlewood or Silverwastes.

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3 hours ago, gerberlyfe.9736 said:

*Guild slots 2-6 will be useless for WvW players. Guild slots 2-6 will be an insulting tragedy when those relationships are shattered every month.

You will never be able to maintain a Discord list of secondary guilds that you run with over months and years. Those relationships are shattered and nothing equivalent will ever form again because secondary guilds will shuffle away after a month. Every month they will be genocided and replaced for no reason.

I think a lot of you are either confused about how this is going to work OR have only played in smaller guilds that have no interaction with anyone outside their guild.

I'm currently in 3 different WvW guilds.  We formed a larger alliance guild consisting of those 3 guilds + several others, mostly from one server but a few from other servers as well.  When WR goes live, we will all choose the alliance guild as our WvW guild but will continue repping and chatting and interacting with our smaller WvW guilds. We will continue to use both our alliance Discord as well as our guild discords.

No one is saying you can't continue to play with your friends. All you need to do is create an alliance guild and invite them. No one is forcing them to rep that alliance guild. Your using it to get on the same server/shard. What you want to do with your alliance guild or individual guilds after that is up to you.

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This is being done wrong I think. What should have been implemented is a new tab called alliance  where guild leaders can use as an anchor point.

Not creating these mega guilds that are basically just gonna be stacking servers again, so it's going to be the same crap under a different name. 

I run with 2 guilds in AG. one for more dedicated raiding on schedules and one as a havoc squad I run with daily. This is going to ruin it for me if these 2 guilds don't end up in same alliance every reset, and I am now forced to choose between them.

I have great friends in both and will now be forced to lose one over the other.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

I think a lot of you are either confused about how this is going to work OR have only played in smaller guilds that have no interaction with anyone outside their guild.

I'm currently in 3 different WvW guilds.  We formed a larger alliance guild consisting of those 3 guilds + several others, mostly from one server but a few from other servers as well.  When WR goes live, we will all choose the alliance guild as our WvW guild but will continue repping and chatting and interacting with our smaller WvW guilds. We will continue to use both our alliance Discord as well as our guild discords.

No one is saying you can't continue to play with your friends. All you need to do is create an alliance guild and invite them. No one is forcing them to rep that alliance guild. Your using it to get on the same server/shard. What you want to do with your alliance guild or individual guilds after that is up to you.

This is true. My alliance guild is the least important guild in my list. It's just to set up the matchmaking.

Any sensible alliance is also going to fit in some roamers and havoc too, though I suppose this typically involves some engagement.

I also don't understand why the alliance system will magically make guild leaders tyrannical ;  I mean if they were, then it also begs the question of why you're even in such a guild in the first place. I suppose if one joins some fly by night guilds that just wants extra bodies sure, but that's a rather shallow level of socialization. If a guild leader "takes over" an alliance, they can't do that on their own because all the rest of the alliance has to do is just start a new alliance without the offending guild leader at a setback of 1 matchup-- just don't invest into the anchor guild.

Also if you do meet other guilds or players; could just invite them too so you can see them next time. I mean if you're not willing to put even that small amount of effort to invite someone, then exactly what kind relationship do you really have with them?

TBH, a lot of this really just feels people have some  parasocial relationships.  OP seems to list other guilds and roamers as resources to run with. It's kind of like you need to ask the question of "Do you really know them?" and more importantly, "do they know you?"  I mean it's not like alliances were announced last month or even last year.

Because I know when I knew these things were happening, I immediately went to personally make sure the people I cared about got in.

 

 

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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Motivation, purpose, game designs, in a server-based game you simply can't delete the servers. If you do, you have to prepare to solve a lot of problems, and you will have to pay the price in number of players. Also, what's the point of having balanced teams if we get a useless environment/context. If that tower isn't my tower I don't defend it, resulting in your super cool alliance getting PVD all day, because it's not my stuff, it's not my people, it's not my team.

 

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55 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

If that tower isn't my tower I don't defend it, resulting in your super cool alliance getting PVD all day, because it's not my stuff, it's not my people, it's not my team.

Ie what every smaller linked world that gets their name ripped from them experience every month. It’s not their world.

Yet people still defend for reasons unknown.

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7 hours ago, gerberlyfe.9736 said:

You will get ONE guild as an anchor point.  Everything else will shift around you like sand. FOREVER.

What do we gain?

  • A player across the whole game can be recruited into a guild one month later on reset, instead of requiring server transfer.
  • No more perma dominant servers, but they will of course be replaced by perhaps even more vicious elite alliances.

What are the consequences of this?

  • Guild slots 2-6 will be useless for WvW players. Guild slots 2-6 will be an insulting tragedy when those relationships are shattered every month.
  • Zerg mains will no longer have a stable population of roamers to chill with off-hours. Ever again, ever.
  • Zerg mains will no longer have a stable population of secondary guilds with known commanders to run with. Ever again, ever.
  • Roamer mains will never have a stable population of known zerg guilds to hot join. Ever again. Ever.
  • Players who don't interact will the guild system will NEVER have any stability whatsoever.
  • Guild Leaders now have the tyrannical and actually crazy power to take away the ONLY stability you have with a single click of a button, to throw you into the trash.

YOU WILL OWN NOTHING AND BE HAPPY.

You gain nothing from Restructuring. NOTHING. Your opponents already cycled through. If you had a bad matchup it ALREADY cycled away. If you wanted diversity it ALREADY cycled in.

The only thing this restructuring has done is shatter everything except a single guild that you can cling to.

You will never recognize the roamers again.  Every month they will be genocided and replaced for no reason.

You will never recognize  any other guild ever again. Every month they will be genocided and replaced for no reason.

You will never be able to maintain a Discord list of secondary guilds that you run with over months and years. Those relationships are shattered and nothing equivalent will ever form again because secondary guilds will shuffle away after a month. Every month they will be genocided and replaced for no reason.

There is nothing to be gained whatsoever from restructuring. It is a perpetual genocide of WvW. It is structurally guaranteed to turn you into a slave to your guild leader, and to turn every single other person in the entire game into a hostile and foreign stranger. 

You will never recognize another player for the rest of your career.

Every person that you encounter or DM, even if they are temporarily aligned with you, will be genocided within 30 days,

This is a monumental crisis and must be stopped immediately.

ArenaNet, you must CANCEL WVW RESTRUCTURING. DO NOT DO IT.

It's over for WvW. ArenaNet destroyed it.

WR is too close to launch that it's better to plan for it. It's what we will have since players' decided to offset the numbers balance and Anet didn't deal with it as it occurred so its both a game and player issue IMO. Since we don't have the next RvR game coming out at this time this remains the best place for RvR till that occurs. So players deciding to stay will need to adjust and see what they can make of it. 

Instead if need be adjust your expectations and see it as an opportunity to explore new places and meet new peeps. Group up using the Comm guild logic until Anet can reevaluate its logic that a Guild is not the same an Alliance and float. The 4 week link period is already going to be showing mixed results if they don't adjust the initial placement logic so that will make it more gray of is it the sorting logic or initial placement logic, but we had been seeing this each relink already. So that's not new.  It will just make the new sorting logic look worse with bad initial placements as we saw each relink and thru most of the betas.

So your choice is game hop, but if you stay, need to look at it a new way. Causals will need to be less so or find Comm Guilds to link with to find familiar faces. Hope that helps.

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I always tell peeps in map chat all welcome in Forum Wars 2. What still is making me concerned is when I mention WR in incoming and make sure you stay up to date the number I of replies I get is when and what is that. Tried it again last night and still getting what do you mean?

Anet, over advertise this on splash and in game emails for players please. Appreciate the blogs but don't assume players just playing to check here, blogs or FW2 peeps trying to pass the word. Else me and Dawdler will need to do a dance off of snark offs on replies to players asking what just happened. 

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2 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Motivation, purpose, game designs, in a server-based game you simply can't delete the servers. If you do, you have to prepare to solve a lot of problems, and you will have to pay the price in number of players. Also, what's the point of having balanced teams if we get a useless environment/context. If that tower isn't my tower I don't defend it, resulting in your super cool alliance getting PVD all day, because it's not my stuff, it's not my people, it's not my team.

 

No reasons to win and removal of servers means EotM v2.0, agree. I will go a 1 v 6 to get a server mate up. During betas, not as much. So yes peeps like Mabi and me will need to find Comm guilds that meet that same need. It's incoming so we all need to prep for that, like it or not. Hopefully Anet gives more players reasons to care to win afterwards. 

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8 hours ago, gerberlyfe.9736 said:

This is a monumental crisis and must be stopped immediately.

ArenaNet, you must CANCEL WVW RESTRUCTURING. DO NOT DO IT.

It's over for WvW. ArenaNet destroyed it.

no more words needed - better bad old system then this friendshipbreaking thing

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Posted (edited)

Well, I can only speak for the "alliance" we found during the betas, and this shows an entirely different picture, despite not even being a "stacked" (500 players) guild. 

 

In February we had 

~300 members total out of which are

~8 guilds accounting for 200 members

~ 100 non-guilded players, including public zerglings and roamers

11 commanders that were willing to tag up public (but even more "non-stablished" commanders actually tagged up)

 

Total numbers have increase a bit since then (but not by much) and during the beta we had a blast. Plenty of publics, guilds working together with pugs, good general activity with everyone, roamers, small-scale, guilds and zergs.

The MAIN problem is not WR, but the unwillingness of players to organize themselves with anyone else (the people of their server that they "value" so "highly", quotation marks intended)

Edited by Custodio.6134
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2 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

Well, I can only speak for the "alliance" we found during the betas, and this shows an entirely different picture, despite not even being a "stacked" (500 players) guild. 

 

In February we had 

~300 members total out of which are

~8 guilds accounting for 200 members

~ 100 non-guilded players, including public zerglings and roamers

11 commanders that we're willing to tag up public

 

Total numbers have increase a bit since then (but not by much) and during the beta we had a blast. Plenty of publics, guilds working together with pugs, good general activity with everyone, roamers, small-scale, guilds and zergs.

The MAIN problem is not WR, but the unwillingness of players to organize anyone else (the people of their server that they "value" so "highly", quotation marks intended)

And I think that is what WR will come down to. Servers are where a player reside. WR will be where they try and be in. 

So all players will need to be less casual. Not saying that as good or bad, just a note. The groups that organize more will do better adjusting their mixes of various types of WvW. If Anet fixes their initial assortment logic then we can also hope that initial placement put more organized against the same when placing in tiers. That ways there are good matchups everywhere versus placing a more stacked group in a bottom tier where they can roll their way back to the tier they should have started in.

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8 hours ago, gerberlyfe.9736 said:

You will get ONE guild as an anchor point.  Everything else will shift around you like sand.

Correct. For some players this will be the end of the world (or their joy or their community) and for other players it will be no different than it is today.

 

8 hours ago, gerberlyfe.9736 said:

It's over for WvW. ArenaNet destroyed it.

The end of WvW predicted. Film at 11.

 

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15 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

The groups that organize more will do better adjusting their mixes of various types of WvW.

Exactly. And that has always been the case, but the players themselves had far less ways to actually influence that. With the new system, you have the choice. You can choose to find any type of guild/"alliance" (and if you actively look for one you WILL find one that suits you). Or you choose not to do, then you need.to live with the consequences 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I also don't understand why the alliance system will magically make guild leaders tyrannical ;  I mean if they were, then it also begs the question of why you're even in such a guild in the first place.

First: I'm happy with my "community alliance guild" and I choose them because they are not tyrannical leaders but very nice people.

But in general it seems to be the case that in larger guilds the ego of the guild leaders grows with the size of the guild. And at some point the typical human interpersonal drama arises because some people don't like each other.

Players who don't want this kind of drama were previously able to choose a server without asking anyone for permission and without being forced to join a (large) guild.

Players who don't want to constantly play without a (somewhat) fixed community in the future will have to somehow become a member of a (larger) guild and then have to ask someone for permission and then endure the social "guild drama".

As I said, I'm quite happy with the alliance guild I chose so far. But I can well understand that it can be a big emotional problem for other players to join a guild that is still unfamiliar and to submit to the rules and supposed whims of a guild management.

 

BTW: Speaking of tyrannical leaders: In my server's previous server community guild, there were a few bruised egos/vanities on the leadership team (team A), which then led to the other half of the leadership team (team B) being blamed for being them tyrannical leaders who want to take over the guild. That was the communicated reason why “as protection” team A became tyrannical leaders and kicked team B (and anyone who criticized the decision) out of the guild without asking the community. Because the guild leadership no longer wanted to adhere to the server community rules, it was no longer a legitimate server community guild and a new server community guild was then founded. But because of course many players didn't notice anything about it and therefore stayed in the old guild, the community was essentially halved back then.

Edited by Zok.4956
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35 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

BTW: Speaking of tyrannical leaders: In my server's previous server community guild, there were a few bruised egos/vanities on the leadership team (team A), which then led to the other half of the leadership team (team B) being blamed for being them tyrannical leaders who want to take over the guild. That was the communicated reason why “as protection” team A became tyrannical leaders and kicked team B (and anyone who criticized the decision) out of the guild without asking the community. Because the guild leadership no longer wanted to adhere to the server community rules, it was no longer a legitimate server community guild and a new server community guild was then founded. But because of course many players didn't notice anything about it and therefore stayed in the old guild, the community was essentially halved back then.

Seems to me that’s an an argument for not against WR. If the half that went to the new guild had disappeared to a new matchup the people who stayed in the old guild presumably would have noticed and could have decided who they want to be with. The only reason the community was halved is because the server system prevented people from noticing the split.

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