Thief Spear Description

[Vinny.7260]

Quote

Thief spear is a melee hybrid weapon that can be utilized by both power and condition damage builds. It also draws some inspiration from an old system in the original Guild Wars® that assassin players should be familiar with. Let’s dive right in!

The second and third spear skill slots share some characteristics. Each has three different states but will always be in the same state as the other. By default, they will both be lead attacks. Striking an enemy with either lead attack will flip both slots into the next state: follow-up attacks. In a similar fashion, striking an enemy with either follow-up attack will flip the slots into their final state: finisher attacks (yes, they’re both combo finishers).

After using one of the finishers, both skill slots will flip back to their lead attack state, ready to start a chain over again—although the fourth and fifth skills and the stealth attack all gain additional bonuses when following a finisher skill, so you may want to weave in one of those before using another lead attack. One last note on the skill chains: using other skills during the chain sequence will not reset the chain, but failing to strike an enemy with the follow-up attack will.

Now that we have a quick overview of the mechanic, let’s take a look at the full slot 2 chain. You’ll be able to mix and match skill slots throughout the chain (for example, 3, 2, 3 totally works), but we won’t be covering all of the skills today.

The Mantis Sting lead attack is a quick melee strike that inflicts bleeding and crippled. This will flip into Entangling Asp, which poisons enemies and will also immobilize enemies that are affected by a movement-impairing condition.

Finally we have the finisher skill, Falling Spider. This skill inflicts bleeding, poison, and vulnerability, inflicting additional stacks against enemies that are either immobilized or under the effects of crowd control. Each skill’s bonus trigger conditions are fulfilled by the previous skill in the chain, but these conditions are all things that the thief has broader access to, so there are opportunities to get these bonuses even when chaining skills together from different skill slots.

 

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/spear-factor-warrior-thief-and-engineer/

 

AHHHHHHH. ASSASSIN CHAIN SKILLS. Anyway, might be a fun weapon for everyone. Hard to say without having our hands on it.

[Antycypator.9874]

> Hybrid Weapon.

This means only 1 thing. "Power budget" is split between strike and condition damage, so:

Power builds can't use full potential of this weapon, because they lack on condition damage.
Condi builds can't use full potential of this weapon, because they lack on strike damage.

[bq pd.2148]

6 minutes ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

> Hybrid Weapon.

This means only 1 thing. "Power budget" is split between strike and condition damage, so:

Power builds can't use full potential of this weapon, because they lack on condition damage.
Condi builds can't use full potential of this weapon, because they lack on strike damage.

or like d/d some skills are just dead buttons depending on what you play.

 

in the video when the thief gains stealth there is this circular dark effect and a shadowy clone there, i wonder what that one will be doing, don't think it is just visual noise.

[Zacchary.6183]

1 minute ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

"Power budget" is split between strike and condition damage

>also another bleed/poison weapon

Already my opinion of this weapon is low.

[ZvolTx.3165]

It looks neat, but still likely a disappointment. The one thing thief needs is a weapon/build that actually works for zerg content in WvW.

Why should I care about being able to "wEaVe ChAiN sKiLlz tOGeTheR" when I'm still locked out of major game modes just because I play thief. 

Spear should be large-radius non-projectile AoE, with a mix of ranged and PBAoE. Thief is the only class that doesn't and has never had viability within large scale WvW. That's what thief needed. Not this condi garbage (we all know "hybrid" means condi) that is only useful for PvE, which is what this will likely be based on what I've seen so far. 

Edited June 14 by ZvolTx.3165

[kash.9213]

Not trashing the idea because I've suggested combo weaving weapon sets before, but this will be like three new skill decks in a row that should have been on the Focus (or would be more appropriate thematically and probably functionally on the Focus). I don't think of a Spear when I think of Assassin.

It sounds like it can be improvisational still though and have big payoffs for being calm and thorough. I hope it can create or close meaningful distance.

Edited June 13 by kash.9213

[Crey.5263]

As a GW1 veteran absolutely "shut up and take my money" with references and nods to the old mechanics and skills.

I like how the new weapons seem to be pushing the bounds in terms of complexity, which not everyone is going to want to use.  But I think it would be awesome to have taken this one step further.  I would have loved to have seen this be a skill tree with 2 lead attacks leading to 4 possible follow up attacks leading to 8 possible finishing attacks with various effects.

Examples of various effects such as : regain initiative, recharge steal skill, knockdown, stealth, boon steal, high condi burst, high strike burst, etc., combo finishers)

[Mor The Thief.9135]

My only concern is non-Deadeye specs having massive Initiative deficiency, which means we get to use those chains how many times before we're stuck on auto-attacking until enough Initiative is regenerated? If Spear has no way to refund Initiative, then it's literally best used on Deadeye because of its buffed up Stealth/Skill4/Skill5 after every chain which Deadeye is able to spam ad-infinitum thanks to M7.

[FrancisN.9276]

I have suggested Sequence Skills for Thief before, so this is exactly what I was talking about back then. How good the implementation is remains to be seen, although I can't help but be a bit more optimistic for daredevil's future.

[Crey.5263]

3 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

>also another bleed/poison weapon

I think the reason certain professions are stuck with certain conditions is that generally the trait line enhancements are what make a condition viable to be centered around.  Thief only has traits to enhance poison and bleed, so them being more adventurous with say....burning ... might not work out mathematically.  Though i suppose they could just build it into the base conditions on the weapon skill.

[Panda.1967]

4 hours ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

> Hybrid Weapon.

This means only 1 thing. "Power budget" is split between strike and condition damage, so:

Power builds can't use full potential of this weapon, because they lack on condition damage.
Condi builds can't use full potential of this weapon, because they lack on strike damage.

It won’t be… a the combo skills actually allow them to put a full power budget for both condi and power in. We already know skill chain combo 2 is condi, which means 3 will be power. 1, 4, & 5 are the only skills you have to worry about a split power budget on… 1 being auto attack will probably be a full hybrid split, and 4 & 5 will likely both be utilitary with one of them granting stealth and the other being a gap closer. Because 2 & 3 share combo states, they can fit a full powered Condi & Power rotation onto each without issues since it will turn out the same as if they had 1 full condi skill and 1 full power skill on the same weapon (which they have done several times for hybrid weapons).

The only time they are guaranteed to split the power budget is if the weapon is Hybrid Support. Not once have they ever made a Hybrid Support weapon that didn’t have a split power budget.

Edited June 13 by Panda.1967

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Seems really interesting at first glance. Very curious to see how it will actually play. Happy that it is melee as the class doesn’t need any more projectile weapons.  I’d say my biggest fear is that all of the skill #2s are the “condi” skills and all of the skill #3s are the “power” ones without much mechanical nuance between them, because it eats up a lot of interesting design space for the sake of hybridity. But we will see I guess. This is definitely the weapon that has piqued my interest the most. Sounds pretty engaging on paper. Love shadow clones in any game so am hyped to see what exactly it’s functionality is. Animations look good. Curious as well if both the mobility and stealth are conditional on hitting an enemy. 

[Scorcher.6428]

7 hours ago, Mor The Thief.9135 said:

My only concern is non-Deadeye specs having massive Initiative deficiency, which means we get to use those chains how many times before we're stuck on auto-attacking until enough Initiative is regenerated? If Spear has no way to refund Initiative, then it's literally best used on Deadeye because of its buffed up Stealth/Skill4/Skill5 after every chain which Deadeye is able to spam ad-infinitum thanks to M7.

I think what would make the most sense if there is some amount of initiative refund upon successfully completing a chain. That way M7 doesn't have the crazy initiative advantage over the other classes.
Will Anet consider this is the real question? 🤔

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

or like d/d some skills are just dead buttons depending on what you play.

Probably this. I do find it interesting that the chain you choose to complete will influence what the other skills do, though, so it might essentially be a case of one finisher being power-oriented, the other being condition-oriented, and therefore skills 4, 5 and the stealth attack are useful regardless of whether you're power or condi.

 

9 hours ago, Mor The Thief.9135 said:

My only concern is non-Deadeye specs having massive Initiative deficiency, which means we get to use those chains how many times before we're stuck on auto-attacking until enough Initiative is regenerated? If Spear has no way to refund Initiative, then it's literally best used on Deadeye because of its buffed up Stealth/Skill4/Skill5 after every chain which Deadeye is able to spam ad-infinitum thanks to M7.

The spectre approach would probably be to complete one chain and then switch to shroud, especially if spear has a means of inflicting Torment.

8 hours ago, Crey.5263 said:

I think the reason certain professions are stuck with certain conditions is that generally the trait line enhancements are what make a condition viable to be centered around.  Thief only has traits to enhance poison and bleed, so them being more adventurous with say....burning ... might not work out mathematically.  Though i suppose they could just build it into the base conditions on the weapon skill.

As noted above, they could potentially find a way to work Torment in - possibly having one sequence of attacks that works in some Torment, and another that's all poison and bleed.

[Sandzibar.5134]

Thief desperately needed something other than staff (or lol shortbow) for AOE WvW zerging. This doesnt look like that. Sadge.

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Sandzibar.5134 said:

Thief desperately needed something other than staff (or lol shortbow) for AOE WvW zerging. This doesnt look like that. Sadge.

Take Scepter/Pistol for zergs. 

[nopoet.2960]

Really like the idea of attack chains.  Can't wait to see how it plays. 

[Vidit.7108]

We'll need to see some numbers to know how good or bad it will be on the various specs. The concept isn't really anything super groundbreaking, it's just adding more flip over skills. After the buggy mess Axe was on launch I'm happy with nothing groundbreaking. It could end up being a mess to balance it versus deadeye m7 or it could be fine.
If you consider already that at current daredevil does a lot of dodges in a rotation, then chain casts times + dodge+utility/steal might be enough to keep us out of having to do lots of auto attacks. If it takes an entire second with quickness to go through a spear chain then the cost is a little lower than it says. The animations look fast in the preview video but what skills are actually getting used might be deceiving. Specter is really the big question mark to me.
If spear has really two buttons for condi and two for power, that's not really substantively different power budget balance than staff. D/D sort of has 2 buttons for power 1 for condi, which is of course kind of spammy but that doesn't make them unviable either. The on paper description makes spear sound to me pretty familiar and just a little bit different than what thief can already do. I'm not complaining yet at this stage especially after having experimental tech being shoved onto scepter and axe.

[Bunny.9834]

I'm excited about the thief spear and the combo idea. 

My only concern are the casting time of the combo skills because it's difficult to land these melee combos (looking at you Impact Strike). 

[Zacchary.6183]

7 minutes ago, Bunny.9834 said:

I'm excited about the thief spear and the combo idea. 

My only concern are the casting time of the combo skills because it's difficult to land these melee combos (looking at you Impact Strike). 

Another thing, how much initiative will these combos cost? It wouldn't be super if we burned through most of our initiative for 1 combo.

[bq pd.2148]

6 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Another thing, how much initiative will these combos cost? It wouldn't be super if we burned through most of our initiative for 1 combo.

given they are 3 skills and some might be gap closer, we can be lucky if we can even get to use the 3rd skill in pvp/wvw from the ini costs alone regardless of hitting them. especially spectres

Edited June 16 by bq pd.2148

[Asur.9178]

It is too early for me to make a proper informed decision about this until I get to see the numbers and play with it myself. However, my current thoughts on the effectiveness of this weapon are below:

There is potential in this weapon to be used as a non-stealth heavy build (similar to S/D). This would be my preference - I hope my very minimal expectations are not completely misplaced.

Acrobatics will further boost the damage of the weapon if you trait for it, and will work just as nicely with it as it does with sword considering the weapon seems to have some evades baked into it (based on animations from the video). Question is how weak will the base weapon be. Ideally, it should be balanced around NOT requiring Acrobatics - but, my faith in the balance team is not very high.

Information regarding initiative cost is missing and is critical to know considering the way the chain skills are currently presented to function. If you are unable to chain skills properly and frequently, the weapon will be a dead set (and more importantly, unfun). The best way to combat the initiative and fun issue would be (ideally) to have the second and (especially) the third chain return initiative upon successful usage.

Considering the copious amounts of evades, dodges, invulnerabilities, and blocks in the game, the entire chain resetting on a missed usage is overly punishing. There's nothing wrong with that in itself; however, the second and third chain skill needs to be very strong considering the currently presented limitations. Ie: the second skills need to be as strong as (or stronger than) Larcenous Strike, and the third needs to be even stronger - but, I know how ANet's balance team works; so, I highly doubt it will be balanced as such.

The attack/animation speed of the skills will make or break the feel of this weapon. For example, sword attacks (especially the auto chain) are very slow and as such feels very bad...especially because it doesn't hit as hard as it should in PvP. Also, axe auto chain is excruciatingly slow. If the spear skills are just as slow or slower (hard to tell from the slow-mo videos), it will feel awful to play with.

Additionally, if there are long animation locked forced movements (eg: Weakening Charge) or movement locks (eg: Pistol Whip) it will be just another unfun weapon.

TLDR: The weapon has good potential (unlike axe, which is atrocious to play with); but, ultimately, it heavily hinges on some key performance metrics which we have no information on currently. Wait until livestream and the beta for more concrete feedback.

[Voodoo.3201]

Its crazy that cmc who hates thief and biased against it designs thief spear.

[Zacchary.6183]

40 minutes ago, Voodoo.3201 said:

Its crazy that cmc who hates thief and biased against it designs thief spear.

tbf thief has gotten more goodies than it ever has since he came into the picture. I wouldn't say he hates thief, but he definitely only plays it enough to have a clue on the direction changes should take.

[Rezok.2709]

My biggest fear is really just based on it being "both power and condi". Usually that means each version just has buttons you never use. And since we are based on initiative rather than cooldowns, there isn't even any downtime where you'd consider using it. You spam the best skill. It's just like D/D, if you run power then skill 3 is basically not there.

Worst case, spear 2 and 3 are each a specific type (power / condi), meaning in reality we won't weave, we just spam the "correct" one for our builds. Or equally bad, power and condi skills are split between the two chains, so you just have one preset sequency you always do to avoid the "wrong" buttons for your build.

Having this combo system could be cool, but only if a single build have reason to mix and match different sequences of skill 2 and 3 depending on situations. Not just be a "half your skills are for power, the other half for condi" as is the case with every other hybrid weapon thief got. I just don't see the initiative system as something that can make such weapons. Especially when we don't have a new spec to change functionality (like how Virtuoso can make power dagger abilities into bleed abilities with a trait).