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Elementalist spear hopes


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Definitely a melee weapon to challenge sword+warhorn, since everything else is ranged already. Daggers may have a short distance but still a distance, and hammer is enough of a hybrid to keep attacking from afar (inefficient, sure, but doable). Could be power or condi, I don't mind but I simply feel like since the sword is already a power tool, a condi melee one would fit - and regardless, finally another pure melee tool to put emphasis on weaver/cata melee tools (and in some measure tempest short-ranged overloads) would be welcome!

However as I've stated in a reply to the mesmer subforum, the trailer was displaying a character throwing a spear from range and blowing up into a fire AoE so that's what I expect we'll get (the "reward careful aiming from range" profile the spear article mentioned). Easy to anticipate and definitely not innovating on anything since it's already something the scepter does and staff isn't really far from that, the very scepter that'll become a power ranged option in the next balance update (while there still aren't reliable ranged offhands beyond 600 range) hence why I'm expecting the spear to be condi - a boringly easy to anticipate spear so I'm sincerely hoping for a surprise. In the meantime, still wondering what staff stands for, apart from support roles and WvW backline "don't interrupt me good sir" meteor showers!

I could settle for a hybrid weapon like the hammer providing ranged & melee skills depending the attunement, although then I'd definitely prefer an agile skill set. Something including gap closers like dagger's Ride the lightning and escape skills like Burning retreat to have your options, even if inefficient, the way hammer does. Hopefully with a fun mechanic on top of those skills to spice things up and to get out of the boring autoattack loop we already have with air sword or fire scepter; however with already several spears including CD resets or flipover skills I doubt it's feasible! Simply waiting for the reveal to come out since I'm already convinced of what will it be, leaving me only to wonder whether it'll be efficient enough to make me (or rather, force me to) play it or just discard that toy the way I dislike scepter.

Edited by Mevelios.4809
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Don't want to scare people, but the "requires precise aiming" tease is the one that I'm pretty sure hasn't been in any of the weapons showcased so far (there are a couple where I'm not sure which it is).

The thing I'd really like to see is a ranged air attunement that's actually fun (sceptre is getting a buff, but even with the numbers scaled up it just doesn't feel like it has a lot of impact), effective (staff and pistol air being notoriously bad), and feels good when used with weaver (rather than having some complicated mechanic that just becomes completely unwieldy with weaver... looking at you, pistol).

Last thing ele needs right now is another melee weapon. People might claim technicalities on dagger and hammer, but we all know how they're used in practice, and every real ranged weapon has more than 600 range.

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Something with movement that can weave between a functional single target ranged option and melee cleave would be fun. Like Sword but without being completely dead in the water whenever an anti-melee situation pops up I guess? Also a weapon that's damage rotation isn't just swapping between Earth and Fire 90% of the time; people kitten on Hammer and Pistol, but actually being able to incorporate Water and Air attunements outside of Weave Self is really refreshing imo.

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Considering the appalling mess they made of the pistol, i don't expect much. 

 

Seriously, how hard was it to just make it a universal off-hand weapon for Elementalist classes?  It screams 'channeling too much'  and would be great for melee power builds.

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3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Don't want to scare people, but the "requires precise aiming" tease is the one that I'm pretty sure hasn't been in any of the weapons showcased so far (there are a couple where I'm not sure which it is).

that's where im putting my money. im guessing a good number of targeting like how lightning orb is aimed. but much quicker and without the auto aiming orb.
probably a few normal aoe targeting that has a delay due to projectile travel so you'll have to aim that rather than fire and forget.

pve wise should be super easy to use. pvp however is gonna be a lot different.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The thing I'd really like to see is a ranged air attunement that's actually fun

give me lightning spear like the souls games have. and a "praise the sun" emote too!

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A 1,200 ranged weapon that fits DPS play styles and has small AoEs or single target only would help distinguish it from the staff, the latter of which I hope to see get buffs for CC, support, or damage at some point to move it back in line with other weapons. That would make the spear neat for open world and instanced PvE content, while staff and scepter would be better for ranged group play in WvW.

If we’re dreaming a little about possible mechanics, an Air attunement skill that allows you to pull someone to you would give Ele access to that ability that is otherwise lacking. Something that allows you to reduce recharge on attunement upon successful hit would also allow you to pump out more single target DPS, especially if you are forced into melee where you could use that on Tempest to increase overload frequency. 

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2 hours ago, crosknight.3041 said:

that's where im putting my money. im guessing a good number of targeting like how lightning orb is aimed. but much quicker and without the auto aiming orb.
probably a few normal aoe targeting that has a delay due to projectile travel so you'll have to aim that rather than fire and forget.

pve wise should be super easy to use. pvp however is gonna be a lot different.

Could be. I could see something like a piercing lightning bolt being set up that way, and when you have 20 skills, having a couple of skills that work that way isn't too much of an imposition.

2 hours ago, crosknight.3041 said:

give me lightning spear like the souls games have. and a "praise the sun" emote too!

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lightning_Javelin

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Hot take, but Spear will stay as is.

They will take the underwaterskills, nerf them a shitton, make them useable on land..... and call it a day.

Mark my words.

4/10. I appreciate your cynicism, but elementalist doesn't have underwater spear, and I don't think even ArenaNet would be so brazen as to simply copy over trident skills for a spear.

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It took some real time for this to show up on the ele form.

I am thinking 1,000-1,200 ranges with an 60 size aoe on an 1 sec ish hang time high dmg.

Or a very high mobility melee a kind of 2 handed dagger set (seeing how they are buffing dagger and nerfing sword in the coming balance patch.)

Over all ele needs some boon control i like to see something like that on spear (i do not think we are going to get any real reworks on pistol to fill that roll that it should have as an condi base wepon.)

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1500 range explosion stick. Or 1200 range explosion stick and make staff the 1500 range slightly less explosion but still explosion + support stick (except for meteor shower, please make that super powerful again).

Hopes and dreams 🪄

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What I hope: "Something simple and effective. An elementalist's weapon that don't force water attunment into healing stuff..."

What the devs will most likely deliver: "Something that need 300 IQ and 5 hands to play optimally... And the cherry on the pie, more auras... Always more auras"

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Elementalist doesn't have enough short range/single target (or both) weapons, sure let's add another one... No. Make it 1200 range, hybrid and good AoE, maybe with decent enough damage to make people question the existence of the rest of the non-support weapons. Maximum copium😶If it ends up being specifically a melee condi weapon, I can only hope it has auto attack strength like sceptre and not pistol, hammer, staff, etc. 

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10 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Please just don't put kitten mechanic like hammer and pistol. .

i will DIE on the hill that the hammer orbs should have been part of the catalyst class mechanics instead.
unfortunately seems a fair bit of the spears revealed already have some kind of gimmic on them, so ele spear might get one. hopefully it's not garbage like pistol bullets were.

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  (carrying over from mesmer subforum)

On 6/14/2024 at 6:34 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

This isn't really the subforum for it, but dagger is essentially "melee with reach", and hammer is effectively melee for all intents and purposes - the air and fire attacks being 600 range and having such a low projectile speed that you can just about keep up with them if you're running forward basically just make them "you're not completely helpless if the enemy is outside of melee range" rather than a really viable range option.

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Last thing ele needs right now is another melee weapon. People might claim technicalities on dagger and hammer, but we all know how they're used in practice, and every real ranged weapon has more than 600 range.

Wasn't the right place indeed, but didn't care to create a dedicated topic for a single reply and this one has been made at the same time, so to carry on and elaborate (stick with me, this will be a lengthy read):

What I'm thinking about is more of a long-term view than what is missing right here, right now. I was surprised when the new weapon mastery that came out as the pistol for elementalists was an actual "new" weapon rather than something recycled; I've stated it elsewhere (likely mesmer subforum but can't be bothered to check through my posts to find it again and link it) but I already mentioned how underwater weapons could've been reused as land options, because the work put in them could likely be partially recovered - the underlying idea being to cut on costs, seeing how SotO turned out. Now I don't enjoy hitting on the studios freely, but it just feels cheap -yes, I dare the word- to see the same textures repeated countless times on end to simulate wide maps (wizard's tower, or zakiros' inside with the same white tile repeated endlessly on floor, roof, walls reminiscent of dungeon crawlers I played 20 years ago if not more) and don't get me started on how optimisation is disastrous, I've never had so much trouble running GW2 than when going to those maps.

Hence from this idea: recycling underwater content to cut on costs. What comes next? Trident & harpoon gun inevitably; I can't even imagine how could the harpoon gun be turned into a melee option, whereas the underwater trident we already know is largely a ranged tool. Factor in ideas or principles that could be derived from mythologies in which the trident is more of a focus for mystical power; try on the opposite to imagine the trident as a melee weapon and the first idea that comes to mind are retiarii -arena gladiators- while there could be 9 archetypes concerned by that weapon, warriors primarily, quickly bottlenecking whatever could be thought of next. What identity, uniqueness does that leave for the spear then?

This is without mentioning the credibility of both weapons' wielding, since tridents (which are basically a type of spear) are meant to stab whereas the vast variety of other spears provide leeway to innovate and think of skills, thus we're back to the concept of using trident as a magical focus. At most the trident could otherwise be thought of as a defensive weapon, like the Korean dangpa; one could imagine the side blades to have a cutting edge, but their very conception make them not only unwieldy on slashing motions (only one blade usable over a lateral axis), it concentrates all the strength over a single blade weakening its integrity.

The trident instead, as a magical focus (which is its description on the wiki) could definitely become the angry version of the staff later on, even if it means "in six months at best" by summoning the precise AoEs many players seem to be craving for, with one easy and obvious candidate from antique Greek mythology to find inspiration in creating skills: Poseidon stabbing the land to make a salty geyser surge from it while competing against Athena over who would be the patron deity of Athens, or how he was associated to earthquakes; one could even push it as far as some of Zeus' thunderbolt depictions or Hades, often represented with his bident to preside over earth - or rather the hades, the underworld, what is (here what comes from) below the surface of the land.

Hence my personal wish (even if I understand your point how it's not something missing "now"): for the spear to be more of a melee tool, or at most an agile hybrid fun to play, because "next" if the studios go down the full recycling of other underwater weapons (if it really proves successful at cutting costs, or if it merely was a direction they wished to take) in an attempt to provide as much content as possible, the remaining future choices for elementalist all yell "ranged tool" to my imagination - hence, how it would restrict possibilities in the not-so-far future.

Of course, this is only speculation so far. Let's consider what we have now: as I've stated already, an AoE ranged weapon IMO steps into scepter or staff territory. Ignore the autoattacks, it would be a mess to turn them into targetable AoEs; the scepter does that on pretty much every skill apart water/earth autoattacks & earth 2. Yes, the 180 AoEs are barely usable; don't try reversing the issue though, since it lies in either the AoE radius either the lack of pulling skills (on scepter an offhand could make a difference), not in the "technicalities"! The 06/25 preview update states it'll increase power coefficients, however it doesn't say anything about removing conditions; thus I'd expect it to still be usable for both power & condi profiles, although likely more of a mix of damage sources (think of virtuosos' damages mix).

Then comes the staff: a harder topic as it remains mostly a support weapon, or an iconical one for WvW backline assistance & meteor showers. Which "technicalities" are we talking about then: apart from earth autoattack which is the only odd one out, they're all multitarget skills - however as a two-hander, I'll admit the lack of any pulling is troublesome in their use (setting aside the projectile speed topic since I'll pick it up later with hammer). Fire staff's fine although Flame burst's impractical from the target restriction over a small radius, while water staff is hard to touch considering how supportive it is - yet Ice spike & Frozen ground could do the trick if a trait were to alter their functions and make them worthwhile damaging tools (considering how fire spec is a must-have in any damage dealer build, a new trait would replace Conjurer or Pyromancer's puissance/Blinding ashes, the pyro puissance having seemingly a lot more uses in PvP/WvW). Air staff's pretty much a lost cause but the previous idea of a trait changing the behaviour of skills could again work its magic for Lightning surge & Static field (that is, if we're talking about making staff a condi weapon; otherwise for power purposes, revise the coefficient - the AoE radius issue still stands, and Lightning surge could simply turn into a targetable AoE rather than being restricted by a target again). Then there's earth staff, for which Eruption's delay could definitely be shortened (even as healer it's hard to blast away in time your fields), while Unsteady ground could have a flip-over skill to cancel it and be turned into a pull (why not?) and Shock wave could be an actual targetable AoE rather than a piercing attack. In the end it falls down IMO to a simpler matter in adressing the staff (or scepter for that matter) than creating a new weapon to fill a spot both could occupy: revise coefficients if making it a power option, create a new trait or simplify it by adding conditions on a few skills if making it a condi option, in all cases take a look at the various radius (ideally add an AoE property to earth autoattack) then turn one, possibly two skills into actual targetable AoEs: there, you have something to work with!

Now, these all sound so easy on paper yet I can't imagine what actual considerations the studios have. However while I'm at it, I'll keep going with the tools I have a different opinion about: first of them, the hammer. Yes, it seems to have been designed with melee purposes in mind, however the orbs themselves do not deal damage and only provide buffs or feed cata energy; the weapon behaviour is shared between melee water/earth & ranged air/fire. How about seizing the opportunity to make up a viable, low intensity ranged power profile out of it, reminding of the current autoattack-centered air sword (dancing exclusively between air & fire attunements)? Technicalities again would be the key word here, with coefficients making the difference. Just thinking how troublesome it could be to counterbalance an autoattack against the remaining skills of their respective attunements sounds like a real chore, but if it's been done for the sword there's hopefully experience to consider repeating it for another weapon? It could ease access to the archetype for curious players with a smoother learning curve, without denying the option of using the hammer as it is today since the idea is not to make it better to resort to autoattacks (no guardian hammer please), but to make it a possibility. Finally there are projectile speed considerations for both hammer & staff; technicalities again, as I don't know what more to say than - kick it up a notch, it's terribly SLOW!

Next are daggers. I'll skip quickly the offhand: it's obviously a melee tool matching the sword, I wasn't even considering it when I mentioned dagger behaviour because it's my go-to offhand on that pairing by personal preference. Now for the mainhand: it has too many contradictions. Yes, the dashes & air/earth 2 or water 3 give it a melee feel; however both fire & water auto- and breath attacks have a piercing behaviour, with the proximity for fire auto being a matter of optimisation (with more leniency at landing them on larger hitboxes). It's a good support tool and the only use I make of it through its several combo options; still it could use some love to give it an as-yet unoccupied role in the form of a mid-range piercing asset with some mobility options, which could be paired well with the warhorn (regardless of how efficient that offhand currently is) or a potential pulling offhand we could imagine from my bit about what to pair the scepter with to counterbalance the target-restricted autos. Back to mainhand dagger, or my would-be competitor against virtuosos: ranges for auto/breath attacks could be standardized at 600 by keeping a 5-target max limitation; Burning speed could be a retreating move instead of a gap closer (which would also be somewhat easier to use as a combo field, since it doesn't send a healer into a potential lethal melee) to oppose Earthen rush. Ring of earth would still be the anti-projectiles and/or melee AoE tool to match the gap closer, however air would see some more change with the auto becoming another forward pierce rather than melee cleave, and Convergence becoming a ranged target-restricted skill rather than another AoE around self.

That was quite a lengthy post; congrats if you've read it all so far! But those are the reasons why I feel like the spear would be a better fit as either a proper melee cleaver, either an agile hybrid. With some revisions, some already existing traits of our arsenal could be given emphasis and find room as the "AoE ranged weapon"; then with what could possibly come next if going down the underwater recycling (big game hunters with harpoon guns, tridents for... something mystical?), there's definitely room to think something up with more ease at satisfying the wilder AoE fantasies!

Edited by Mevelios.4809
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3 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

  Hence from this idea: recycling underwater content to cut on costs.

I think they are cutting on costs, but not quite in the way you're thinking. None of the spears that have been shown thus far have shown any signs of copying how they work underwater. The real impetus seems to be that they can make one new legendary for Janthir that everyone wants to get regardless of profession, and that by using a weapon type that still has at least a basic set of skins available, they don't need to create as many new skins as they would if they made an entirely new weapon type instead. This might extend to the other underwater weapons in the future... but then again, it might not, as future expansions might use something else as the main draw card. Part of the logic for spear is probably that 7/9 professions already have spear and it's not a weapon that ele or engi would be fundamentally unsuitable for - trident or harpoon gun might be more difficult to justify giving to every profession.

More broadly, even if all three underwater weapons do eventually hit the surface, and even if they're both given to all professions (rather than, say, stretching the budget to two legendary weapons, giving each profession the weapon they already have underwater, and calling it there), I don't think it would actually be that bad for all three to be ranged for elementalist. It's been called out a few times that it's weird that elementalist has ended up so melee-focused, and spear/trident/harpoongun all being ranged would offset that by quite a bit while still leaving room for more conventional melee weapons like axe, mace, and greatsword to potentially show up if they want to add more meleementalist options.

3 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Then comes the staff: a harder topic as it remains mostly a support weapon, or an iconical one for WvW backline assistance & meteor showers. Which "technicalities" are we talking about then: apart from earth autoattack which is the only odd one out, they're all multitarget skills - however as a two-hander, I'll admit the lack of any pulling is troublesome in their use (setting aside the projectile speed topic since I'll pick it up later with hammer). Fire staff's fine although Flame burst's impractical from the target restriction over a small radius, while water staff is hard to touch considering how supportive it is - yet Ice spike & Frozen ground could do the trick if a trait were to alter their functions and make them worthwhile damaging tools (considering how fire spec is a must-have in any damage dealer build, a new trait would replace Conjurer or Pyromancer's puissance/Blinding ashes, the pyro puissance having seemingly a lot more uses in PvP/WvW). Air staff's pretty much a lost cause but the previous idea of a trait changing the behaviour of skills could again work its magic for Lightning surge & Static field (that is, if we're talking about making staff a condi weapon; otherwise for power purposes, revise the coefficient - the AoE radius issue still stands, and Lightning surge could simply turn into a targetable AoE rather than being restricted by a target again). Then there's earth staff, for which Eruption's delay could definitely be shortened (even as healer it's hard to blast away in time your fields), while Unsteady ground could have a flip-over skill to cancel it and be turned into a pull (why not?) and Shock wave could be an actual targetable AoE rather than a piercing attack. In the end it falls down IMO to a simpler matter in adressing the staff (or scepter for that matter) than creating a new weapon to fill a spot both could occupy: revise coefficients if making it a power option, create a new trait or simplify it by adding conditions on a few skills if making it a condi option, in all cases take a look at the various radius (ideally add an AoE property to earth autoattack) then turn one, possibly two skills into actual targetable AoEs: there, you have something to work with!

Improvements to staff would certainly be nice, but even if staff was improved, additional options would certainly be good!

You've pretty much acknowledged yourself there that staff air is basically a lost cause. Sceptre air - they're bumping up the coefficients, but lets face it, the continuous beam occasionally augmented by an instant cast skill style that sceptre air has isn't exactly everyone's cup of tea. And pistol air seems to be another lost cause. "Lightning wizard" is a pretty popular elementalist subtheme, which could be as popular as fire wizard if it had a suitable weapon to go with it, but... none of those existing ranged weapons are going to be it. Spear possibly could be, especially since there's a lot of precedent in other fantasy games (including Guild Wars 1) for spears and javelins to be linked to lightning. In practice, of course, optimal use of spear is likely to include weapon-swapping, but having at least one weapon with a satisfying ranged lightning theme should be a priority.

3 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Now, these all sound so easy on paper yet I can't imagine what actual considerations the studios have. However while I'm at it, I'll keep going with the tools I have a different opinion about: first of them, the hammer. Yes, it seems to have been designed with melee purposes in mind, however the orbs themselves do not deal damage and only provide buffs or feed cata energy; the weapon behaviour is shared between melee water/earth & ranged air/fire. How about seizing the opportunity to make up a viable, low intensity ranged power profile out of it, reminding of the current autoattack-centered air sword (dancing exclusively between air & fire attunements)? Technicalities again would be the key word here, with coefficients making the difference. Just thinking how troublesome it could be to counterbalance an autoattack against the remaining skills of their respective attunements sounds like a real chore, but if it's been done for the sword there's hopefully experience to consider repeating it for another weapon? It could ease access to the archetype for curious players with a smoother learning curve, without denying the option of using the hammer as it is today since the idea is not to make it better to resort to autoattacks (no guardian hammer please), but to make it a possibility. Finally there are projectile speed considerations for both hammer & staff; technicalities again, as I don't know what more to say than - kick it up a notch, it's terribly SLOW!

Yeah, I've been pushing pretty much since release for hammer fire and air to get a bit more range and projectile speed so it can actually be a genuine "ranged in some attunements, melee in others" behaviour, similar to how other professions can change their range bracket through a weaponswap. It was something I was pushing for before EoD, even, although I'd been thinking of fire and earth being melee and air and water being ranged due to the traits. But ArenaNet seems to be implicitly rejecting that approach, apart from taking damage off the circling orbs.

3 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Next are daggers. I'll skip quickly the offhand: it's obviously a melee tool matching the sword, I wasn't even considering it when I mentioned dagger behaviour because it's my go-to offhand on that pairing by personal preference. Now for the mainhand: it has too many contradictions. Yes, the dashes & air/earth 2 or water 3 give it a melee feel; however both fire & water auto- and breath attacks have a piercing behaviour, with the proximity for fire auto being a matter of optimisation (with more leniency at landing them on larger hitboxes). It's a good support tool and the only use I make of it through its several combo options; still it could use some love to give it an as-yet unoccupied role in the form of a mid-range piercing asset with some mobility options, which could be paired well with the warhorn (regardless of how efficient that offhand currently is) or a potential pulling offhand we could imagine from my bit about what to pair the scepter with to counterbalance the target-restricted autos. Back to mainhand dagger, or my would-be competitor against virtuosos: ranges for auto/breath attacks could be standardized at 600 by keeping a 5-target max limitation; Burning speed could be a retreating move instead of a gap closer (which would also be somewhat easier to use as a combo field, since it doesn't send a healer into a potential lethal melee) to oppose Earthen rush. Ring of earth would still be the anti-projectiles and/or melee AoE tool to match the gap closer, however air would see some more change with the auto becoming another forward pierce rather than melee cleave, and Convergence becoming a ranged target-restricted skill rather than another AoE around self.

Fire is 400 range but wants to be closer. Water's auto goes out to 600 but hits like a wet noodle, and also has a 240 range PBAoE. Air is 240 range. Earth is 240-300. The gap-closers might be theoretically usable as escapes but it's pretty clear what they're intended to be used for.

Dagger is melee, except that it has some standoff options because it's one of the original set of weapons when they didn't expect people to be willing to go full melee, and even then your potential to do damage drops off sharply with distance. Sword was made after people demonstrated that they were willing to go full melee for a bit of extra damage, but you don't take dagger unless you're planning to spend most of your time within PBAoE range.

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11 hours ago, RazieL.5684 said:

what's with all the people talking about 1000-1200 range weapons O.o stop that! 1500 range is where it's at... only 2 classes have that in the game and it shouldn't be like that!

What use is there even for that? Some niche use in WvW maybe? I'm not sure it's something worth wishing for... Especially if it come along with thing like: "the further you are from your foes the more effective the skills are".

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59 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

What use is there even for that? Some niche use in WvW maybe? I'm not sure it's something worth wishing for... Especially if it come along with thing like: "the further you are from your foes the more effective the skills are".

so i wrote a paragraph, then saw your number of posts... so i deleted the paragraph and decided to go with:

i'm not explaining range...

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