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Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?


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Title says it all. Celestial stats are removed in pvp for a reason. they are impossible to balance and not just in pvp. 
Remove cele from wvw aswell please. i dont care if they stay in pve, but they shouldnt exist in any pvp mode.

Its lazy design and bad for balancing.

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Coming from someone who has over 30,000 games played in GW2 pvp, I'm telling you right now that wvw strangely actually has better competitive balance than pvp at this point. I'll say some things in testimony to why I feel having ALL options active including celestial, is good for wvw:

  1. Way more options to play with. Gives ability to make really really weird builds, which is fun. Having diversity in play style is WAY WAY more fun than some narrow meta with extremely limited options, which let me tell ya, isn't good for balance. Because the less options you have, the fewer ways there are to actually create counter-play. In pvp classes get absolutely pigeonholed into having to play certain things to be even remotely effective. And sometimes if a class doesn't happen to get a good patch or has a bad one, then it's just useless and falls to bottom tier until some direct buffs occur. <- This is not a problem in wvw, mainly due to the next point #2.
  2. Cele meta and all pve gear options included. Literally any class can build a balanced cele build and roam. There are so many options that even if some classes are technically better roamers, you can at least make something that can deal with it, even if you ultimately lose and have to peel & run. The cele meta makes it so in roaming, there aren't really class counters anymore. If you argued they were still there, it's light-countering at best. This actually feels waaaaay better than limited option pvp where everything is a rock/paper/scissors festival where in many situations, skill takes a backseat to the fact that "class A just wins vs. class B" unless the person being countered is like plat+ vs. middle gold or lower to be able to work around it. This is not a problem like that in wvw. Skill in roaming 1v1s and ingenuity with build-crafting is 100% much more important than any rock/paper/scissors, due to allowing so many options.
  3. As far as zerging & large organized comps go, it doesn't feel any different to me than it was in year 1. It was always a big boon ball meta since day 1 and people have been using the same exact techniques for 12 years now. Nothing has changed outside of some classes/builds going up or dropping in popular use. The only thing that has really changed about the dynamic is that support/boon creep is so much higher than it's ever been, that fewer supports are needed to maintain large amounts of necessary boons. THIS is actually healthy because it allows room in comps for actual full DPS.

I can vouch that all the power creep and specifically support/mobility creep in pvp has been bad for the ultimate dynamic of conquest games. But in wvw man, I feel like it's all been good. It's actually enabled a lot more applicable play dynamic for wvw.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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but that is exactly my issue with cele. everybody is playing it. its a no brainer. if everybody across the board can use it, its unbalanced. its actually not more options, its less, because, if you dont run cele, you lose. 
and if you played zerg for a while you would have noticed a huge difference in playstyles. atleast on EU there have been many different ones. and right now everybody for zerg is switching to cele. and going more and more condi heavy.

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14 minutes ago, RedShark.9548 said:

but that is exactly my issue with cele. everybody is playing it. its a no brainer. if everybody across the board can use it, its unbalanced. its actually not more options, its less, because, if you dont run cele, you lose. 
and if you played zerg for a while you would have noticed a huge difference in playstyles. atleast on EU there have been many different ones. and right now everybody for zerg is switching to cele. and going more and more condi heavy.

Well at first I would have thought the same. But after many months now of experimenting with different roam builds, this is generally what I've identified as optimal on various classes, as full cele actually is not often the best bet:

  1. Ranger things - Soulbeast still wants full serk to fulfill the role of a mobile sniper and wall defense - Druid is a rare exception that actually does want full cele + divinity runes even - Untamed revolves too much around pet and isn't really relevant in wvw for this reason, it also has very limited mobility compared to Soulebeast/Druid
  2. Necromancer things - I run Power Reaper with a mix of serk/valk stats essentially, with speed relic and sword for maximum mobility, it absolutely shreds 90% of cele builds if you approach right and ride the pressure without giving them air to breath - Harb is best with full cele, without a doubt, it's very strong in 1v1, but it is very bad in 1v2 or 1vX situations, it simply has no real kite power or mechanics to stall 1vX, and it gets trucked on by small groups if caught at all - Scourge is imo best with cele, but it's a bad roamer, it is however amazing while zerging - I know others are running cele-shout Reaper in zergs, which is good, but I feel it is no better than a well designed power variant, which is somehow being overlooked right now in the meta
  3. Guardian things - Dragonhunter I run essentially a mix of berserker/cele, probably about 70% serk and 30% cele - Willbender I straight run marauder/valk, only enough marauder to reach about 45% crit - Firebrand, even though meta says cele is the IN thing to do on Firebrand, I definitely feel like it's enormously squishy with cele and still best as a full support mostly minstrel based
  4. Warrior things - Cele Condi Serk is another exception, however strong it is in 1v1, it is bad when focused, simply can't survive 1v2s and 1vXs as well as other roamers and it has very limited usage in a zerg, it's best in small groups 4-5, not actual yolo roaming - DPS Serk marauder/serk is great in zerging - other war specs not so hot in wvw atm
  5. Engi things - Engi is just bad in general in wvw roaming and zerging, but if you really want to make it work, it has to be a Tool Holo and he's best with marauder/serk mix
  6. Thief things - Running cele on any thief spec is an illusion of safety where it makes it so you can't kill anything, but you still die real fast if juggled at the right time, your latent attributes really don't support the amplification of cele stats, and cele doesn't really stack well with the use of stealth & mobility as cele is meant for tanking - I find the best bet here for optimization is still to run full DPS marauder/serk variants on any thief spec, it's just the only way to be effective
  7. Rev things - Most successful roamers I see are def cele Renegades - Rev has little use in zergs though, outside of a full support Vindi with minstrel
  8. Mes things - eeeeh old cele Mirage is still ok but they do not pack the potency they once had - like with DH, I use mixes of cele + other stats for various Mirage builds to enhance the DPS so you can actually kill things - Mirage is still necessary for roaming due to jaunt disengage - For zergs, I don't find any mes build to have anything important that would warrant bringing it over a different class
  9. ELE things - Literally everything about Ele is optimized with the use cele or near full cele, roamer or zerging - I actually find that there is little to no reason at all to every use any stat other than cele in wvw when it comes to Ele

So what are we realistically looking at here that even uses full cele or mostly full cele?

  1. Definitely Ele - imo this is the only class that really "abuses" celestial stats, both in roaming and zerging - doesn't even matter what build you run, if you run Ele and put cele on it, it'll be strong
  2. Druid - if you play it right, it has top tier performance with cele setups in roaming, but it's the only ranger spec that can truly utilize cele, it aint bad in a zerg either
  3. Harbinger - i've straight seen some cele Harbingers that feel just "too strong" in 1v1s, however, as I said before, they are BAD if caught 1v2, they die easily - not so optimal in zerg though, the blight stacks decreasing max health is like what you don't want while zerging
  4. Reaper - cele good in zergs but not so hot in roaming, gets out-kited too easily
  5. Scourge - cele is very very strong still in zerging, really no use roaming though, too slow
  6. Firebrand SA Burn - they say it's meta, but I aint feeling it tbh - almost didn't put it in this list
  7. Condiserk - I mean... good 1v1er, has bad kiting, gets floored as soon as it comes against 1v2, not so much utility in zerg
  8. Renegades - excellent roamer 1v1 with cele, but it just can't kite man, it gets chewed up by more mobile roamers, it can't live through 1v2/1vX ect ect, and not such an effective zerg component
  9. Mirage - old cele setups still in play that are now so watered down I rarely even see them nowadays, and when I do, I don't find them so threatening

So like, those 9 builds out of every possible build, are using cele.

But which ones are really "abusing" cele or "too strong" or "too useful, too much utility"? Honestly man, it's really just Eles & Necros that make cele look bloated. Because it's like no matter what specialization/build that Eles/Necros use, cele will work on it, and it will be strong. So it makes cele look "dominant" or "the obvious choice" but this really is only the case with Ele & Necro.

At least imo, that's what I see going on.

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I would only use crating for WvW/PvP(this game is extremely easy and you can finish it with basic gear) and, seeing as I get a full cele set with a new character, i have zero reason to engage with crafting/gathering.  

 

idiot design for PvP again

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On 6/17/2024 at 3:55 PM, RedShark.9548 said:

but that is exactly my issue with cele. everybody is playing it. its a no brainer. if everybody across the board can use it, its unbalanced. its actually not more options, its less, because, if you dont run cele, you lose. 
and if you played zerg for a while you would have noticed a huge difference in playstyles. atleast on EU there have been many different ones. and right now everybody for zerg is switching to cele. and going more and more condi heavy.

You destroy your own argument when you say "if everyone can use it, it's unbalanced"

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No I get what he's saying. If you can run anything, but make up for your poor build decisions by running cele, then cele is unbalanced . . .

But otoh I don't really agree with the other guy who thinks having a ton of build options means that player skill is more impt either. It's actually the opposite, you can stack the deck in your favor with your build, and your skill becomes a non-issue . . .

I don't really see any of this as a problem tho since ultimately there is nothing to win or lose. Each player sort of decides for themselves whether they get their fun from fighting or from winning and then builds accordingly, or more likely plays accordingly depending on how they feel on a particular day . . .

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Balance wise, celestial makes sense. You sacrifice build stat variety for balance.

Game play and fun wise, it bullies out all other stats.

Factor into that the fact that builds revolve around the stats you chose, and you end up also making a lot of skills, traits and weapons less useful. Which again is great for balance purposes but bad for variety.

Personally I mind less the celestial meta and more the anti boon corrupt angle they are running in balance atm (which isn't to say I agree with celestial the way it is implemented in WvW).

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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On 6/18/2024 at 12:14 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Engi things - Engi is just bad in general in wvw roaming and zerging,

o.0 Are you sure you have played WvW?
Right now if you're playing any other DPS than Holo in content larger than 20s then you're trolling.

Holo is currently busted so hard that everyone stacks them.

And as  for support, scrapper is still extremely viable, especially as a counter to the cele condi meta most squads run.

Edited by Fizzee.1762
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12 minutes ago, Fizzee.1762 said:

o.0 Are you sure you have played WvW?
Right now if you're playing any other DPS than Holo in content larger than 20s then you're trolling.

Holo is currently busted so hard that everyone stacks them.

And as  for support, scrapper is still extremely viable, especially as a counter to the cele condi meta most squads run.

And let's not forget core engi for trolling zergs with commander pulling, yes it's a gimmick but it's a very effective one in capable hands.

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Because sPvP crashed after they started removing amulets in order to be an esport versus a training ground for WvW. Loved sPvP as testing ground for builds and quick practice fights. Then the nerfs. Why go there after that. Removing amulets, less sPvP, bad idea. 

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On 6/17/2024 at 9:51 PM, RedShark.9548 said:

Remove cele from wvw aswell please.

And how you would go about that? It was removed from PvP because they can easily manage the amulets there, what are you gonna do about a player that enters WvW with their Celestial kit? Auto unequip... ? That would go lovely...

On 6/17/2024 at 10:55 PM, RedShark.9548 said:

everybody is playing it

If everyone is playing it how is it unbalanced... ?

Not to mention that in reality, no, not EVERYBODY is playing with Celestial gear because depending on what you're doing it's sub optimal, and there's more you can do without it than you can with.

If you're having a bad run at WvW you need to stop scapegoating, the fact of the matter is there is no gear inspect and at the end of the day you can only guess what people are using and if we had access to those metric I'm willing to bet you're guessing wrong and Celestial gear isn't nearly as common as you're portraying here.

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5 hours ago, Gop.8713 said:

No I get what he's saying. If you can run anything, but make up for your poor build decisions by running cele, then cele is unbalanced

Other way of looking at this:

The classes that have too much power & condi potential baked in all over the place, are the classes that can abuse celestial stats. Again, when you look at Ele & Necro, they have all these weapon skills, shroud skills, attunement skills, that have very high power and condi coefficients, like all over the place on just about every skill. They also self-stack might effortlessly, with these might stacking benefits conveniently baked into their base specialization designs with absolutely no sacrifices made to be able to have that might stacking.

On the majority of other classes/builds their weapon sets are like "this is either power or condi, not both" and they have to make real sacrifices to get might stacking, like adding strength sigils or runes with additional boon durations, taking specific options that enables might buffs instead of some direct escape, ect ect.

We are also looking at: "To what degree can the class/build in question amplify the value of tough/vita/heal/conc?" With Ele & Necro there is aaaaaall this stuff they have, that is again, baked in all over the place, that greatly amplifies the value of direct defensive attributes. But if you look at say a Thief archetype, it has barely anything at all that can actually amplify those defensive stats. In cases like this, the Thief's offense is his defense, and he will actually be more defensive, the stronger his offensive pressure is. In other words, having just +1000 power on a Thief, is actually granting more defense than if he had say +500 tough/vita/heal/conc. It's true.

The other thing to point out is the implementation of so much mobility creep over the years, especially after recent relic releases. Ele & Necro, their original core designs in the game's original dynamic, was meant to be "slow tanky guys that have good dps in close range". They were supposed to be SLOW, but now after mobility creep, these tanky big damage dealers aint exactly slow anymore. Now we have things like Reapers & Eles that can effectively chase & keep up with something like a DP Daredevil, and they outweigh his combat attribute potential like very seriously 10 to 1.

IMO the real imbalance going on is simply insane mobility creep. Right now we have what was supposed to be "the slow & powerful AoE machines that are good with cele" able to move nearly as fast as a DP Daredevil. <- This admittingly shouldn't be happening, and that is where the problem is. If all the cele Eles & Necros were moving at 2/3rds the speed they are now, I don't think too many people would be complaining about cele, as then there would be a real drawback for using such a powerful stat line. The problem is that they are too fast and can ride other builds on top of them and bully them with heavy cele attributes.

Again though, imo it's really just Ele & Necro that truly abuses cele, and they are only able to do that due to insane mobility creep. Other classes can be good or maybe strong with cele, but they don't feel like adamantine boulders rolling at you like Ele & Necro does.

 

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1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

And how you would go about that? It was removed from PvP because they can easily manage the amulets there, what are you gonna do about a player that enters WvW with their Celestial kit? Auto unequip... ? That would go lovely...

If everyone is playing it how is it unbalanced... ?

Not to mention that in reality, no, not EVERYBODY is playing with Celestial gear because depending on what you're doing it's sub optimal, and there's more you can do without it than you can with.

If you're having a bad run at WvW you need to stop scapegoating, the fact of the matter is there is no gear inspect and at the end of the day you can only guess what people are using and if we had access to those metric I'm willing to bet you're guessing wrong and Celestial gear isn't nearly as common as you're portraying here.

I have been accused of celestial stats even when running full zerk with just cav stats on weapons...but was good at dodging copy/paste rotations....people get mad and accuse me of facetanking dmg...on a zerk spec🤣😂🤣. Full crusader with some diviner....accused of celestial....full minstrel  healer...accused of celestial. It's amusing but don't really care as I play dozen of different builds and i min/max every time...let people rage all they want

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You can be too tankly in spvp or an environment where your only going to get hit with at most 5 ppl likely less. In wvw cele will not save you from getting hit from 5+ ppl.

It would be nice to see an cele power dmg with no condi dmg and an cele with condi dmg and no power dmg and make cele all version weaker over all.

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With the zerg meta now shifting to hybrid damage where spike and conditions are used feels like if Celestial gear is getting abused maybe the stats need to be re-balanced. Personally I like to have some time to see how it is performing for large groups for a bit more time.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

If everyone is playing it how is it unbalanced... ?

if most people choose celestial as their best option for winning fights, resulting in it being the most picked  stat combination, then its unbalanced compared to other stat combinations. 
what about that do you not understand? if something is used unproportionally more than other things, you have to take a look at it and wonder why its taken so much. 

as for how they would implement it into wvw. idc, thats an issue the devs have to work on, i only care about a healthy state of the game. and having most ppl run cele gear is not a healthy state of the game.

 

sure, i dont have numbers, but im active in wvw guilds and talking to people and i know many metabuilds that are running cele gear in zergs and the meta is shifting to more and more hybrid dmg for zerging as chris above me mentioned (it used to be basically only power atleast on EU and now we are seeing ppl shift to more condis aswell). and many duelists/roamer im talking to are also running cele gear. 

you just get too many stats. compare how many statpoints you get from other gear and how many you get from cele. its crazy. try reaching similar numbers of stats with any other gear, its hard. you get so tanky, while still dealing a ton of all the dmg stats and still heal quite a bit. 
even if you try to recreate cele stats without condi dmg and expertise, just everything else is almost impossible

Edited by RedShark.9548
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On 6/17/2024 at 4:51 PM, RedShark.9548 said:

Title says it all. Celestial stats are removed in pvp for a reason. they are impossible to balance and not just in pvp. 
Remove cele from wvw aswell please. i dont care if they stay in pve, but they shouldnt exist in any pvp mode.

Its lazy design and bad for balancing.

 

"PvP Only"

WvW is a game mode where all Toxic Trash are Dumped in. 

Edited by Burnfall.9573
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12 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I have been accused of celestial stats even when running full zerk with just cav stats on weapons...but was good at dodging copy/paste rotations....people get mad and accuse me of facetanking dmg...on a zerk spec🤣😂🤣. Full crusader with some diviner....accused of celestial....full minstrel  healer...accused of celestial. It's amusing but don't really care as I play dozen of different builds and i min/max every time...let people rage all they want

I've been accused of running a perma stealth teefo when I was S/D, which has access to no stealth outside of dagger 5, which is very very very far from perma stealth.

The average player is so brain dead they have no idea what they are actually fighting, let alone how to counter it, so all they do is rage message.

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Is Cele the best choice for every build? Of course not. 

But it's also far from the worst choice. 

You can slap Cele on basically any build in Wvw and you will do at least fine. 

If I run a build and I am not sure how to min max it, I just slap Cele on it and call it a day. 

Works good enough in most cases. 

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