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Lightning rod is mathematically outdated In PvE


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First of all : this posts refers to the PvE version of these traits, as in PvP they are both quite useful still

now, Look at this 2 traits Lightning Rod and Carnivore

They are pretty similar traits : both are grandmaster traits, both do damage and bonus effects on crowd control. However one has 16 times the effect of the other baseline (mathed out btw).

Carnivore does 3.255 life syphon damage and 3.2200 life syphon healing on a CC. This is life syphon, so it's a bit different than normal damage and doesn't crit, and also the scaling on both healing and damage is abysmal, so lets give this trait as little of an advantage as we can and take it in the worst case scenario : let's say this trait does always do 3255 damage and 3220 healing, and so it always has a 6470 irreductible health swing in PvE. Let's also disregard the fact that healing is way more valuable IN PvE than damage, given it's availability, and say that it always does 6470 damage

The numbers for lightning rod are the following 399 baseline damage (for a grandmaster trait, lmao), 989 with maximum power available from a full berserker gear and weapon set and dragonhunter runes , and 1348 power with perfect power build, perfect weapon gear and runes, traited fire for the extra power (on top of already traiting air for Lightning rod itslef) and 25 might stacks. 

Also the multiplier on wiki might be broken or outdated, as I increased my power by exactly 60 and only gained 23 lightning rod damage, indicating a 0.38 multiplier instead of the wiki suggested 1.5 multiplier. I know weapon strength comes in that calculation somewhere, but the difference is way too high. Regardless of theory, these are the numbers in the game 

1348 Damage for a Grandmaster trait in perfect setup. 1,685 if you hit an enemy with 25 vulnerability on it.  (has to go through toughness too first, don't forget)

Let's say you crit, since that's the only advantage Lightning rod has over Carnivore. The above numbers lead to a maximum of 3545 on a critical hit, if you have both max power and ferocity. Normal damage can be affected by vulnerability, so let's go further with our ideal case (raid only) scenario and say we have 25 stacks of that. Our damage now becomes 4431. This is still 2000 less of a hp swing than carnivore has, even in the ideal case scenario. And no, weakness is an almost worthless condition in PvE, especially when playing a 11,645 health class, whose 4 second application does absolutely not make up for a 6000 - 2000 health swing per cast, even if you manage to keep it up 100% with only lightning rod somehow.

In fact, to further test lightning rod it in practice, I went and built a full power elementalist, with the typical power weaver build, and checked my stats. Elementalists get more power in fire and more ferocity in air, but you are almost never going to be having CC skills in fire (and we'll get to why in a second), but you could have them in air, so let's check in air for the bonus ferocity :

at 3381 power, 1818 ferocity in air (271 crit damage) , with 25 stacks of might and 25 vulnerability stacks on the enemy, with firework relic, force and impact sigils, and the entire 3 elementalist trait trees of % damage buffs, we get a mighty 6200-7000 damage. This is also on the grandmaster trait competing with 1 insane raw damage buff trait and 1 insane build defining damage buff trait btw.

This is barely higher than the health swing Carnivore has, and only on a high roll. Not only that, but you have to have the maximum attainable damage, maximum stat investment, perfect buffs and debuffs, and oh yeah, CRIT in the first place, while ranger can be naked with no weapon, no utility skills and need a single bird barking at the enemy to have the same impact.

This also completely ignores the fact that while life syphon damage ignores every damage multiplier effect, it also ignores all damage reduction effects : protection, toughness, individual mob specific damage reduction effects : they're all gone, you will have you damage, period..

Also to top it off, cc done by your summons (ex air elemental/water elemental) don't count as your own, despite the source of those effects being a literal skill on your bar (not the minion, the command itself is a skill).  So ranger can have their pets trigger the trait, but elementalist can't.

Since power scaling on some ele weapons are finally being buffed in the next patch, thought I'd be time I pointed this out.

TLDR : Lighting rod is out-powercreeped and needs a buff.  Since it has very low base and scaling, a 1000 base damage and a 0.6-1 power scaling buff together would do great, or even an added utility effect instead, like for example : "all your cc triggers an additional cc of the same type/ a stun for 0.5 seconds at 1 second after the initial application. This trait cannot trigger itself"

Edited by vardeleanu.8972
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4 hours ago, vardeleanu.8972 said:

Also the multiplier on wiki might be broken or outdated, as I increased my power by exactly 60 and only gained 23 lightning rod damage, indicating a 0.38 multiplier instead of the wiki suggested 1.5 multiplier. I know weapon strength comes in that calculation somewhere, but the difference is way too high.

1.5 coefficient is correct

tooltip damage is calculated by power * wep strength * coefficient / armor. lightning rod uses unequipped wep strength (~690) and tooltips assume armor value of 2597

so itd be power * (690 * 1.5 / 2597), which turns into power * ~0.4. each point of power adds 0.4 to tooltip damage

you can compare coefficients with regular weapon skills. 1h mh exotic has ~1000 wep strength so the effective coefficient would be 1.5 * (690/1000) = 1.035. this is equal or worse than coefficients found on various autoattacks

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I see

11 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

tooltip damage is calculated by power * wep strength * coefficient / armor. lightning rod uses unequipped wep strength (~690) and tooltips assume armor value of 2597

so itd be power * (690 * 1.5 / 2597), which turns into power * ~0.4. each point of power adds 0.4 to tooltip damage

 

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3 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Lighting rod should apply Fulgor as well as the first bit of dmg on hard cc.

^This.

Lightning Rod could read, "Cast Lightning Rod and Lesser Fulgor when you disable a foe." Lesser Fulgor could have a shorter duration, do less damage, or both. 

Edited by Tempest.8479
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Lightning rod already lost value when they deleted Tempest Defense, then with the Competitive Split ( delay on most CC, zero damage on CC) but the various patchs distributing stab on many traits didn't help either.
Some people tried to keep LR weaver alive a year or two with unravel + earth shield, or with catalyst ... yeah... a bit underwhelming.
Yet may be LR catalyst with the new Arcane Wave ... ?

With 2 others "DPS" grandmaster traits (fresh air is a bit gimmick, still you get ferocity), this one could get some improved utility :
CC eating more stack like JSKi has proposed, or stealing stab; weakness in aoe, weakness also apply blindness  (icd), etc.

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