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Sylvari's prologue dream boss (spoilers Living World 2)


DarkK.7368

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At first I thought that the dragon boss in Sylvari's prologue dream was Zaithan. Then I thought it was one of his minions, because it "was like Tequatl". Now with Mordremoth I noticed that plant dragon is the same as that boss from years ago, and that was not a Zaithan dragon as I confused in my mind. But all the plot was clear telling me that my dream told me that I was destined to face Zaithan... But that was not Zaithan. Why did my dream told me I was destined to kill Zaithan if that was a Mordremoth champion?

PD: I love how that model from years ago was used later as a Mordremoth champion

Edited by DarkK.7368
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The lore maids will make it make sense to you, they'll "make sense" of anything nonsensical with impressive mental gymnastics.

Try asking them why most rifles and pistols don't have any sights and how is a character suppose to aim those and watch them work 😉

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27 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

The lore maids will make it make sense to you, they'll "make sense" of anything nonsensical with impressive mental gymnastics.

Try asking them why most rifles and pistols don't have any sights and how is a character suppose to aim those and watch them work 😉

I'll equip myself with my maximum critical mind not to be fooled by mental gymnastics and debate the good arguments then.

Well, taking into account the limited rifles range, I think in real life you could pretty much hit them without a sight. That explains why we don't have headshots, without sights we can't aim properly hahahahahaha

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8 minutes ago, DarkK.7368 said:

I think in real life you could pretty much hit them without a sight.

You think wrong, bring an AR15 without sights to a 20 yard range and any range master will kindly ask you put the sights on or leave. Let alone trying to deploy these weapon systems in GW2 into active combat.

8 minutes ago, DarkK.7368 said:

I'll equip myself with my maximum critical mind not to be fooled by mental gymnastics and debate the good arguments then.

Let me tell you about a glorious time called the early 2010s when GW2 was a couple of years old and a feature patch came out that sprused the combat log, particularly now you could see the name of the attacks hitting you.

This was of particular interest in the Crucible of Eternity. You see the Crucible of Eternity was an inquest lab, built and set up to study Dragon Magic, and anyone looking at it for half a second could see 6 areas, that included... The Mythical Jungle Dragon!

Except... there wasn't really much of anything in the lore about him, so the always reliable lore maids of the forums were quick to "debunk" such a thing even existed, and the highly suspicious nature of the Sylvari was, according to them, no cause at all to think anything of it... And even after the feature patch showed the names of the attacks of Subject Alpha which included the name Mordremoth many were still adamant in their vast encyclopedic knowledge of the lore that there was no such thing as a jungle Dragon, pay no attention to the areas of the Crucible of Eternity and if you dare mention around here the Sylvari might be Dragon minions you'll be laughed at, because it has been debunked you see.

Needless to say the amount of cope was glorious when they were proven wrong, "it made no sense, Anet just did it because popular demand, ignore all the clues in game since day 1, I was still right in everything I claimed, the jungle dragon is a myth."

To this day you can still milk lols outta the lore forum.

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4 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

At first I thought that the dragon boss in Sylvari's prologue dream was Zaithan. Then I thought it was one of his minions, because it "was like Tequatl". Now with Mordremoth I noticed that plant dragon is the same as that boss from years ago, and that was not a Zaithan dragon as I confused in my mind. But all the plot was clear telling me that my dream told me that I was destined to face Zaithan... But that was not Zaithan. Why did my dream told me I was destined to kill Zaithan if that was a Mordremoth champion?

PD: I love how that model from years ago was used later as a Mordremoth champion

Your Dream does not tell you it's Zhaitan. It just shows you a dragon shaped monster made of plants which you need to fight. (The Dream is often like that, there's several sylvari who Dream of a location they need to find, but they only know what it looks like, not what it's called or where it is.)

During the Dream Caithe tells you the the Shadow of the Dragon (and the Nightmare Hounds) is the Nightmare Court's influence taking form. When you awaken Mender Serimon tells you that Dreaming about fighting a dragon means you've got a Wyld Hunt to defeat one, but he never says which one, only that you shouldn't rush off to fight it right away.

At the start of the level 20 story Caithe tells Trahearne that, like her, you've got a Wyld Hunt to fight a dragon but again she doesn't say it's Zhaitan. She also tells you about Trahearne's Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr and implies you could help each other. From that point on the two of them and the Pale Tree, and then later the Orders, direct you towards fighting Zhaitan but I don't think any of them specifically say Zhaitan is the dragon from your Dream.

At the end of Victory or Death Caithe says "Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream". I'm not sure if she thinks your Wyld Hunt is finished and she's just assuming you'll be involved in fighting the other dragons because of your role in the Pact, or if she knows you need to fight the others too. Your character (and several others in Fort Trinity) seem keen to take on the rest of the Elder Dragons and other than that line from Caithe I can't see anything mentioning your Wyld Hunt.

Caithe knows what the dragon in your Dream looked like, and she knows about Mordremoth and his signficance for the sylvari. It's possible the Pale Tree knows too but I'm not sure how much detail she can see in individuals Dreams. Trahearne only knows what Caithe told him.

They may have just assumed it can't be a coincidence that a new sylvari awakened with a Wyld Hunt to fight a dragon right at the time Zhaitan is becoming more of a threat to the Grove and Tyria generally and so he must be the dragon you Dreamed about fighting. It's also possible one or more of them (especially Caithe who is never the most honest person) knows it's not Zhaitan, or that you need to fight all the dragons, and Zhaitan is just a convenient one to send you after because he's such a problem.

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4 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

The lore maids will make it make sense to you, they'll "make sense" of anything nonsensical with impressive mental gymnastics.

Try asking them why most rifles and pistols don't have any sights and how is a character suppose to aim those and watch them work 😉

And you'll be here to shout how it all doesn't make any sense and how you dislike the lore for some reason yet feel the need to constantly be in here just to express your anger.

4 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Let me tell you about a glorious time called the early 2010s when GW2 was a couple of years old and a feature patch came out that sprused the combat log, particularly now you could see the name of the attacks hitting you.

This was of particular interest in the Crucible of Eternity. You see the Crucible of Eternity was an inquest lab, built and set up to study Dragon Magic, and anyone looking at it for half a second could see 6 areas, that included... The Mythical Jungle Dragon!

Except... there wasn't really much of anything in the lore about him, so the always reliable lore maids of the forums were quick to "debunk" such a thing even existed, and the highly suspicious nature of the Sylvari was, according to them, no cause at all to think anything of it... And even after the feature patch showed the names of the attacks of Subject Alpha which included the name Mordremoth many were still adamant in their vast encyclopedic knowledge of the lore that there was no such thing as a jungle Dragon, pay no attention to the areas of the Crucible of Eternity and if you dare mention around here the Sylvari might be Dragon minions you'll be laughed at, because it has been debunked you see.

Needless to say the amount of cope was glorious when they were proven wrong, "it made no sense, Anet just did it because popular demand, ignore all the clues in game since day 1, I was still right in everything I claimed, the jungle dragon is a myth."

 

You mean how most everybody suspected Sylvari were infact, related to the Jungle dragon or elder dragons in general due to the fact they couldn't be turned into Risen from the literal start?

Like, I don't even know what you are talking about here considering basically everybody suspected some connection, and knew that the Crucible of Eternity related to all six elder dragons including how the inquest had a sea monster that they couldn't contain there. 

5 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

At first I thought that the dragon boss in Sylvari's prologue dream was Zaithan. Then I thought it was one of his minions, because it "was like Tequatl". Now with Mordremoth I noticed that plant dragon is the same as that boss from years ago, and that was not a Zaithan dragon as I confused in my mind. But all the plot was clear telling me that my dream told me that I was destined to face Zaithan... But that was not Zaithan. Why did my dream told me I was destined to kill Zaithan if that was a Mordremoth champion?

PD: I love how that model from years ago was used later as a Mordremoth champion

as Danikat says, the PC's wyld hunt is "Kill an elder dragon/fight the elder dragons." Caithe's one is "Kill Zhaitan" and Trahearne's is "Cleanse Orr"  So the three naturally end up working together because of that. Trahearne and Caithe also were among the only people who had seen Zhaitan personally, and with Zhaitan's horde being the most pressing threat to the kingdoms that is how they got swept toward it. 

1 hour ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Your Dream does not tell you it's Zhaitan. It just shows you a dragon shaped monster made of plants which you need to fight. (The Dream is often like that, there's several sylvari who Dream of a location they need to find, but they only know what it looks like, not what it's called or where it is.)
 

As an example, a Sylvari had a dream/wyld hunt about the forever trees, and spent her few years alive trying to find this place she knew she had to reach and help heal, but had no idea where it was or anything else. It was only when Cantha reopened and talk of the great petrified forest spread she knew "Wait, that's what my dream looked like, that must be where I have to go!"

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27 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

That was the Lore forums at the time, statement of fact.

Pretty sure you are confusing people talking about the plant monsters guarding the seed cave with Sylvari. But since you serve no purpose then to be a troll here, have a nice day, I'll not respond to you again. You know, just talk to people who actually want to discuss lore instead of complain and do nothing useful.

Edited by Kalavier.1097
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25 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Pretty sure you are confusing

I'm 100% not confusing anything when I make the statement of fact the gate keepers of the lore forums in early 2010s would "debunk" such a claim with long winded posts, they were particularly active after the Woodenpotatoes video on the subject matter and they made sure to let anyone know such a theory wasn't sound.

Lucky for you the way back machine isn't cooperating, you'd get no shortage of direct quotes that you could try to spin away, just like Almora's we're hanging by a thread.

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12 hours ago, DarkK.7368 said:

At first I thought that the dragon boss in Sylvari's prologue dream was Zaithan. Then I thought it was one of his minions, because it "was like Tequatl". Now with Mordremoth I noticed that plant dragon is the same as that boss from years ago, and that was not a Zaithan dragon as I confused in my mind. But all the plot was clear telling me that my dream told me that I was destined to face Zaithan... But that was not Zaithan. Why did my dream told me I was destined to kill Zaithan if that was a Mordremoth champion?

PD: I love how that model from years ago was used later as a Mordremoth champion

Shadow of the Dragon was originally presented in lore to be a generic "fight Elder Dragons" vision. It was not Zhaitan nor a minion of Zhaitan, but a metaphysical representation of the Elder Dragon threat in general.

This was seemingly soft-retconned in Season 2, however, it's not clear in Season 2 whether the Shadow of the Dragon fought is the actual same exact Shadow of the Dragon as the one in the Dream, or a copy of - as Mordremoth's thing is making planty clones of things, and has access to the Dream.

Similarly, even if it is the same exact Shadow of the Dragon, it isn't clear if it was always Mordremoth's minion or was twisted / corrupted by Mordremoth just like Scarlet and Aerin.

10 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

You think wrong, bring an AR15 without sights to a 20 yard range and any range master will kindly ask you put the sights on or leave. Let alone trying to deploy these weapon systems in GW2 into active combat.

Let me tell you about a glorious time called the early 2010s when GW2 was a couple of years old and a feature patch came out that sprused the combat log, particularly now you could see the name of the attacks hitting you.

This was of particular interest in the Crucible of Eternity. You see the Crucible of Eternity was an inquest lab, built and set up to study Dragon Magic, and anyone looking at it for half a second could see 6 areas, that included... The Mythical Jungle Dragon!

Except... there wasn't really much of anything in the lore about him, so the always reliable lore maids of the forums were quick to "debunk" such a thing even existed, and the highly suspicious nature of the Sylvari was, according to them, no cause at all to think anything of it... And even after the feature patch showed the names of the attacks of Subject Alpha which included the name Mordremoth many were still adamant in their vast encyclopedic knowledge of the lore that there was no such thing as a jungle Dragon, pay no attention to the areas of the Crucible of Eternity and if you dare mention around here the Sylvari might be Dragon minions you'll be laughed at, because it has been debunked you see.

Needless to say the amount of cope was glorious when they were proven wrong, "it made no sense, Anet just did it because popular demand, ignore all the clues in game since day 1, I was still right in everything I claimed, the jungle dragon is a myth."

To this day you can still milk lols outta the lore forum.

Way to twist the narrative there.

No one ever doubted the sixth Elder Dragon existed - in fact, an Elder Dragon of vegetation was actually stated to exist before launch by Jeff Grubb. Hell the journal entry for the final story step, Victory or Death, outright stated five Elder Dragons remain. The existence of a sixth Elder Dragon was never in question - and people didn't doubt its name was Mordremoth either.

What was debunked was the notion of sylvari being dragon minions "because they're immune to corruption" or that the Pale Tree broke free "because she was raised by Ventari". And both those claims remain untrue - it was established in lead up to Heart of Thorns that sylvari immunity comes not from their nature, but their connection to the Dream of Dreams, and we see other dragon minions that simply get exposed to corruptive energy of other Elder Dragons become corrupted by those second dragons too, multiple times albeit rarely. The most notorious being Subject Alpha, which is the original origin of the name Mordremoth (and before the whole "lab subject" thing gets added in - the Inquest's means of experimentation was just "expose to dragon magic"; something the Elder Dragons do daily and is the prime method of creating their minions). As to Ventari purifying the tree - this theory came about because in Edge of Destiny, Glint said she betrayed Kralkatorrik, implying all it took was a bit of desire to break free; however the base game, namely Arah explorable, proved that what allowed Glint to break free was a powerful and ancient mystical ritual that gave her free will - without free will, a dragon minion cannot break free; and Ventari saying "be good to your neighbor" doesn't grant someone free will. To this day, it's still unknown how the Pale Tree broke free, how the Pale Tree gained free will; Ventari's teachings made her take the philosophical stance she did, but did not give her free will. It's a repeated ad-nauseam plot point that the power of love and friendship doesn't work on dragon minions.... yet people keep thinking it does.

Of course it was eventually revealed sylvari were indeed dragon minions - but the way people reached that conclusion was basically taking wrong evidence to get the right answer. Like thinking moss grows on the west side of trees so they follow that to their camp in the east, which they thought was also in the west. They end up getting to the camp that's in the east by heading east, but the whole kitten time they thought they were going west. Right answer, wrong evidence to reach that answer.

7 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Your Dream does not tell you it's Zhaitan. It just shows you a dragon shaped monster made of plants which you need to fight. (The Dream is often like that, there's several sylvari who Dream of a location they need to find, but they only know what it looks like, not what it's called or where it is.)

During the Dream Caithe tells you the the Shadow of the Dragon (and the Nightmare Hounds) is the Nightmare Court's influence taking form. When you awaken Mender Serimon tells you that Dreaming about fighting a dragon means you've got a Wyld Hunt to defeat one, but he never says which one, only that you shouldn't rush off to fight it right away.

At the start of the level 20 story Caithe tells Trahearne that, like her, you've got a Wyld Hunt to fight a dragon but again she doesn't say it's Zhaitan. She also tells you about Trahearne's Wyld Hunt to cleanse Orr and implies you could help each other. From that point on the two of them and the Pale Tree, and then later the Orders, direct you towards fighting Zhaitan but I don't think any of them specifically say Zhaitan is the dragon from your Dream.

At the end of Victory or Death Caithe says "Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream". I'm not sure if she thinks your Wyld Hunt is finished and she's just assuming you'll be involved in fighting the other dragons because of your role in the Pact, or if she knows you need to fight the others too. Your character (and several others in Fort Trinity) seem keen to take on the rest of the Elder Dragons and other than that line from Caithe I can't see anything mentioning your Wyld Hunt.

Caithe knows what the dragon in your Dream looked like, and she knows about Mordremoth and his signficance for the sylvari. It's possible the Pale Tree knows too but I'm not sure how much detail she can see in individuals Dreams. Trahearne only knows what Caithe told him.

They may have just assumed it can't be a coincidence that a new sylvari awakened with a Wyld Hunt to fight a dragon right at the time Zhaitan is becoming more of a threat to the Grove and Tyria generally and so he must be the dragon you Dreamed about fighting. It's also possible one or more of them (especially Caithe who is never the most honest person) knows it's not Zhaitan, or that you need to fight all the dragons, and Zhaitan is just a convenient one to send you after because he's such a problem.

This isn't actually true. At the end of the level 10 storyline:

<Character name>: If I may ask, Mother-in my dream, I also saw a fierce, horrible dragon. I've been told it is my Wyld Hunt to face this monster. Is that true?
Avatar of the Tree: I fear that it is. A Wyld Hunt is a sacred thing, a burden placed by the Dream upon the strongest and bravest of my children.
Avatar of the Tree: In your Dream, you fought an Elder Dragon face-to-face. Only two of my children have had such a dream. You, and Caithe.
Avatar of the Tree: All sylvari fight the dragon's servants, the undead, but I believe you will face Zhaitan itself. I also believe you will prevail.

And if you talk to the Pale Tree afterward:

Avatar of the Tree: It's a powerful force of evil. You have already fought its undead minions on our shores.
PC: Caithe and I both dreamt of fighting this horror. Will that come to pass?
Avatar of the Tree: You are destined to fight for Tyria's future. Zhaitan will be the largest of many obstacles.

So it is confirmed pretty early on - by the Pale Tree, specifically, who is curator of the Dream and with access to Wyld Hunt knowledge - that your Wyld Hunt is to fight Zhaitan.

And during The World Summit, talking to Trahearne has this stated:

Trahearne: The things we see in our Dreams have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt... Do you feel the call yet?
PC: I haven't for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?
Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.
PC: The Elder Dragons... Mordremoth.

Basically reaffirming that yes, Zhaitan was your Wyld Hunt, but not the whole of it - it reactivated once Mordremoth became active, and implies the full Wyld Hunt is all Elder Dragons.

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11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

No one ever doubted the sixth Elder Dragon existed

This is a flat out lie.

There was a MASSIVE debate with people even bringing an old interview at the time of Colin Johanson flat out mentioning "the jungle dragon" as an avenue to explore stories, amongst others, and even with that it was still dismissed by the thick heads that took lorekeeping for themselves and made sure they dominated the space.

One common thread by new comers was "is the pale tree the jungle elder dragon?" and such were immediately rebutted with "there's no such thing as a jungle dragon, here's a dozen paragraphs why and a handful of external links."

The fallout from Season 2 was nuclear, with those people being proven wrong they could only defend themselves with "Anet only did it because it was a popular fan theory" to try to save face.

Today there's only some YouTube comments that'll mention "the jungle dragon theory has been debunked."

You're only denying it because those old forums are gone and the way back machine doesn't gave a record of them, I'd be willing to bet you might even been one of those flip floppers.

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10 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

You're only denying it because those old forums are gone and the way back machine doesn't gave a record of them, I'd be willing to bet you might even been one of those flip floppers.

Yes. Very gone. Much missing. So wow. I can even look up all 12 pages of your posts and see if you ever posted in the lore forum back then. Fun fact: you didn't before the ending releases of LWS1, that's for sure; you didn't even post in most living world forums. Your oldest post is dated January 26th, 2013 - well after people had begun discussing the existence of Mordremoth with certainty of his existence being canon - and your oldest post in the lore forums is this one, dated February 26th, 2014. And in true irony, your first post about Mordremoth was denying its involvement in LWS1. Dated the literal day before Mordremoth was shown in the finale of LWS1.

Nah man, you're misremembering. The major debates weren't over the existence of Mordremoth - there may have been some, but the majority of them and the big controversial take that you're talking about? That was about the theory of sylvari being dragon minions.

I mean, hell, Season 1 ended with a literal dragon roar. No one doubted Mordremoth's existence since March 2014.

Hell, here is one of the threads that you're talking about about people denying the revelation: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Sylvari-Anet-was-planning-this-since-2007

And another: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Sylvari-are-not-Mordremoth-s-creation

Now, to talk about Mordremoth discussion threads, here is one of the oldest threads, dated December 2012, made by yours truly: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/On-the-Sixth-Elder-Dragon-and-its-corruption - so despite your claims that I was a denier of Mordremoth, well, I bring it up right there, in so much depth I couldn't keep it to a single opening post. And no one is really debating the existence of Mordremoth there.

And for completionist sake, here is THE oldest thread, dated September 12, 2012: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Spoilers-ArenaNet-confirms-the-fan-theories-about-Elder-Dragons, and yes this one does suggest the Pale Tree is an Elder Dragon as a theory (one of the many theories propogated by WoodenPotatoes, who's fans were vehement believers of every word he spoke to the point of insulting anyone who disagreed, at least back then), but the existence of a sixth Elder Dragon isn't in denial by anyone really - just whether or not the Pale Tree is an Elder Dragon. This thread is also the first mention I can find in the old lore forum in which the name Mordremoth from the combat logs is brought up, presented on page 3.

And that is, again, about sylvari being dragon minions and people debating whether it was planned since 2007 or not. Not about the existence of a sixth / jungle dragon.

 

I do find it quite hilarious how you claim to know what went happened but you never once made a post in the lore forum at the time, yet I did.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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I think the "no one" of Konig's was not meant as "literally no one ever" but more along the line of people being in the know with the lore at the time, generally agreed about existence of Mordremoth from the very beginning. It is even reaffirmed this way with this statement:

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The major debates weren't over the existence of Mordremoth - there may have been some, but the majority of them and the big controversial take that you're talking about? That was about the theory of sylvari being dragon minions.

Which clearly states that some discussions on whether Mordry was a real deal or not could happen during the period, were just not the big drama Dean claims to be a fact.

That being said, the thread @Dean Calaway.9718 linked does not truly support his position of "lore maids doing bit mental gymnastics to deny mordremoths existance". It is a thread, speculating the meaning of the mordremoths tooth attack of subject alpha and it's lore implications to be sure, but it does not feature any big lore nerd name "debunking" it anyhow. The only thing this thread can hope to achieve is to disprove the very literal interpretation that "nobody ever" doubted mordremoth's existance, but even taking that statement from Konig's all posts away, you still have alot more to deal with even to get to the point of only countering all the evidence Konig levied against your original claim.

Personally I do not recall Mordremoth as 6th ED being big issue, may be tied to the bit Konig stated that by 2013 (the year when I started my forum activity, apparently by being pro-ranger activist going by the archive content), general public was already acknowledging that theory as true, I do remember the big lore drama of whether or not sylvari are dragon minions or not.

Personally I tried to keep up with the lore of GW very closely for long since GW2 release, (even if my old forum activity does not have that much to show it for pre-2013 period specifically) and while I do remember debate on implications of Crucible of Eternity layout and later skill names, I definitively do not recall "big discussion" about it happening, nor any sort of complex argumentation against Mordremoth as an Elder Dragon. Personally at the time I believed that people put too much weight on a skill name of the boss, but not to the point of denying any merit to the mordremoth theory. Sylvari as dragon minions was much more prominent and much more vividly discussed subject.

On barely related note, checking out my own 2013 posts on old forums archive is a trippy experience for me personally. Funny how kitten changes over 11 years.

 

As for the actual topic of this thread: I think it was sufficiently explained despite Deans shenanigans of lore hate, it is very possible that the intent of writers have shifted over the years, but in the end it seems sylvari commander wyld hunt was to get rid of them all. Question from me at this point would be if sylvari commander ever mentions their wyld hunt past the mordremoth? One would think they maybe should have a comment on that subject after Soo-Won dies?

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On 6/24/2024 at 2:03 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

No one ever doubted the sixth Elder Dragon existed

From one single thread... https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Mordramoth/page/1

"consider the inquest lab itself, containing 6 rooms for the 5 dragons. The room which does not pertain to a dragon (as far as we know)" - arcqe.6734, 2012-09-25

"Whether Mordamoth is a champion of Primordus, or the 6th, plant/earth elder dragon remains to be seen." - Zenyatoo.4059, 2012-09-25

"it would certainly be an interesting twist to have a sixth dragon that no one knows about" - arcqe.6734, 2012-09-26

"I’m hoping for an epic reveal if there is a sixth dragon." - Curuniel.4830, 2012-09-26

"Mordramoth = Deep Sea Dragon?" - jaymayxd.8190, 2012-10-11

"whether or not we call him Mordramoth. This elder dragon, if it exists and/or is still alive" - Narcemus.1348, 2012-10-11

----

There was a lot more than that, and a lot more still outside the official forums.

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2 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

From one single thread... https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Mordramoth/page/1

"consider the inquest lab itself, containing 6 rooms for the 5 dragons. The room which does not pertain to a dragon (as far as we know)" - arcqe.6734, 2012-09-25

"Whether Mordamoth is a champion of Primordus, or the 6th, plant/earth elder dragon remains to be seen." - Zenyatoo.4059, 2012-09-25

"it would certainly be an interesting twist to have a sixth dragon that no one knows about" - arcqe.6734, 2012-09-26

"I’m hoping for an epic reveal if there is a sixth dragon." - Curuniel.4830, 2012-09-26

"Mordramoth = Deep Sea Dragon?" - jaymayxd.8190, 2012-10-11

"whether or not we call him Mordramoth. This elder dragon, if it exists and/or is still alive" - Narcemus.1348, 2012-10-11

----

There was a lot more than that, and a lot more still outside the official forums.

I had a whole response written up for you. Then I decided to open the thread and look at the quotes. And wow, this is selection bias at its finest. In particular is the quotes for arcqe that you quote twice. Let's quote their full post, shall we? Bold is what you pulled out of context:

Quote

there is hinting towards an earth or plant dragon throughout the world.

consider the inquest lab itself, containing 6 rooms for the 5 dragons. The room which does not pertain to a dragon (as far as we know), ie the skillpoint room, is covered with plants and poisonous fauna.

furthermore, in the CoE itself, while the party is attacked by dragon minions, there are also husks similar to that which the nightmare court employ.

I would guess that the nightmare itself may be some sort of corruption of mordramoth, but this could be false.

all we can really do for now is speculate.

also, here’s the skill on gw2db
http://www.gw2db.com/skills/14257-teeth-of-mordramoth
(and the others)
http://www.gw2db.com/skills/15624-teeth-of-jormag
http://www.gw2db.com/skills/14255-teeth-of-primordus

You quoted the second sentence out of context, making it sound like acque was denying Mordremoth's existence. But they literally open up with "there is hinting toward an earth or plant dragon throughout the world".

The second acque quote is only stating that Mordremoth's existence wasn't yet confirmed - in the literal month after the game launched. And this is true. There were just three sources hinting at Mordremoth's existence - the Priory scholar mentioning a sextant of Elder Dragons, the Victory or Death story journal mentioning 5 more remaining Elder Dragons, and the Crucible of Eternity. But here's the thing: all of them are hidden (need a Priory PC when talking to the NPC; need to look into the journal after completing the entire story; need to look at combat logs), and with ArenaNet's heavy over-reliance of unreliable narrator, every source is questionable.

None of those posts are, as you originally said: "the always reliable lore maids of the forums were quick to "debunk" such a thing even existed" (and to quote in case you choose to edit your old post:)

On 6/23/2024 at 10:00 AM, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Let me tell you about a glorious time called the early 2010s when GW2 was a couple of years old and a feature patch came out that sprused the combat log, particularly now you could see the name of the attacks hitting you.

This was of particular interest in the Crucible of Eternity. You see the Crucible of Eternity was an inquest lab, built and set up to study Dragon Magic, and anyone looking at it for half a second could see 6 areas, that included... The Mythical Jungle Dragon!

Except... there wasn't really much of anything in the lore about him, so the always reliable lore maids of the forums were quick to "debunk" such a thing even existed, and the highly suspicious nature of the Sylvari was, according to them, no cause at all to think anything of it... And even after the feature patch showed the names of the attacks of Subject Alpha which included the name Mordremoth many were still adamant in their vast encyclopedic knowledge of the lore that there was no such thing as a jungle Dragon, pay no attention to the areas of the Crucible of Eternity and if you dare mention around here the Sylvari might be Dragon minions you'll be laughed at, because it has been debunked you see.

Needless to say the amount of cope was glorious when they were proven wrong, "it made no sense, Anet just did it because popular demand, ignore all the clues in game since day 1, I was still right in everything I claimed, the jungle dragon is a myth."

To this day you can still milk lols outta the lore forum.

This is the literal first month after release. Mordremoth wasn't confirmed yet, only had small subtle hints of its existence in the game. And every person you quoted in pieces was alluding to that - it's hinted but not confirmed.

Hell my first post postulates Mordremoth being a champion of Primordus, because I didn't do the dungeon yet and didn't know the full context, as was true for many others at the time because it was the first month (two months by the time of your final quote) after release.

And none of this is people going "it made no sense, Anet just did it because popular demand, ignore all the clues in game since day 1, I was still right in everything I claimed, the jungle dragon is a myth." - because such never happened about Mordremoth.

Let's look at other quotes of yours in full. I shall bold what you pulled out of context:

Quote

“What was Subject Alpha exactly?”

As near as I can tell, he is meant to be a sort of amalgamation of all the draconic energies. There are multitudes of icebrood, branded, risen, ETC in the dungeon. And he is clearly mishapen. He also spawns risen and the undead tendril things. His abilities under his name is “Morphs” or something. But I never saw him do it.

Whether Mordamoth is a champion of Primordus, or the 6th, plant/earth elder dragon remains to be seen. I was just curious if anyone had any more concrete info on it.

This is from Zenyatoo, the person who started the thread BTW, who was asking if there was more details about Mordremoth.

Quote

It depends how it’s done. There are theories floating around that the sylvari/the Pale Tree are connected to a sixth dragon in some way, and while I do love the sylvari as their own independent thing, it could be cool if handled well. They did just happen to be born as the other dragons were rising.

I’m hoping for an epic reveal if there is a sixth dragon. Think about the spiny ridge in Eye of the North, and how epic it was to find out that was part of a slumbering Elder Dragon. So… how large a piece of our map might we lose when we find out we built on top of an earth dragon?!

This is from Curuniel, who seems to be in favor of the theory of Mordremoth being the sixth Elder Dragon, and the sylvari/Pale Tree being connected to it. I.e., the opposite of what you're talking about.

Quote

This is just a thought on the dragon we call six, whether or not we call him Mordramoth. This elder dragon, if it exists and/or is still alive, has a control of nature and/or poison. Now there is 1 area in Tyria where major changes are taking place when it comes to the natural landscape and we have no current elder dragon to point to as the cause of it, and that is the Maguuma Wastes. Now I know that this area has been somewhat desert like since GW1, but things have definitely gotten worse in the area over the past few centuries. Now personally I would attribute this, as well as Mount Maelstrom, to the bloodstones found in the respective areas, but the sixth elder dragon also seems like a possibility. My only issue with the sixth elder dragon living in Tyria, the continent, is the fact that it seems strange that they should all be centered around that 1 continent, with the exception of Bubbles.

And this is from Narcemus, probably the only person in that thread other than myself who's still active at a glance. Note how again, like arcqe, Narcemus is not denying Mordremoth's existence, but pointing out it isn't confirmed yet - which 2 months into the game's life, again, it wasn't - and immediately went into where it could be. Which, by the way, was spot on.

What I find ironic is that you didn't quote me at all, since I was most doubtful of Mordremoth being an Elder Dragon at the time, though not completely and this was largely stemmed from the discussion of "sylvari==dragon minions" that had been floating about. Something I do admit I vehemently disagreed - not the existence of Mordremoth, not the existence of a sixth Elder Dragon, but the sylvari being tied to an Elder Dragon - because there were too many contradictions present at the time (like sylvari not being enslaved mindless goons or devouring magic left and right - the fact sylvari don't consume magic still remains a bit of an oddity tbh).

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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On 6/25/2024 at 1:11 AM, Trejgon.9367 said:

As for the actual topic of this thread: I think it was sufficiently explained despite Deans shenanigans of lore hate, it is very possible that the intent of writers have shifted over the years, but in the end it seems sylvari commander wyld hunt was to get rid of them all. Question from me at this point would be if sylvari commander ever mentions their wyld hunt past the mordremoth? One would think they maybe should have a comment on that subject after Soo-Won dies?

As far as I'm aware, sadly, no - there's no further comment about the sylvari Commander's Wyld Hunt, not even after Soo-won dies. It seems to be one of the lore/character threads that was quietly dropped somewhere along the way.

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On 6/25/2024 at 4:11 AM, Trejgon.9367 said:

As for the actual topic of this thread: I think it was sufficiently explained despite Deans shenanigans of lore hate, it is very possible that the intent of writers have shifted over the years, but in the end it seems sylvari commander wyld hunt was to get rid of them all. Question from me at this point would be if sylvari commander ever mentions their wyld hunt past the mordremoth? One would think they maybe should have a comment on that subject after Soo-Won dies?

Missed this before, but afaik, the last time the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt is mentioned would be The World Summit. After that point, any "chosen one" mentality is swapped full sale to the more universal champion of Aurene story beat.

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On 6/29/2024 at 11:11 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And this is from Narcemus, probably the only person in that thread other than myself who's still active at a glance. Note how again, like arcqe, Narcemus is not denying Mordremoth's existence, but pointing out it isn't confirmed yet - which 2 months into the game's life, again, it wasn't - and immediately went into where it could be. Which, by the way, was spot on.

I must admit it is weird seeing a quote from myself on the forums that long ago. I do find it funny that I came close to the right location for Mordremoth, though through the wrong reasoning (much like the Sylvari = Minions argument). To my knowledge the desertification of the Maguuma region was never attributed to Mordremoth.

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On 6/29/2024 at 5:11 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

wow, this is selection bias at its finest

No, it isn't, and as I've mention...

On 6/29/2024 at 2:59 PM, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

There was a lot more than that, and a lot more still outside the official forums.

The ones outside the official forums, in places where they don't disappear for reasons are particularly juicy.
But keep up the damage control because I've got popcorn.

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