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15 min limit on editing posts


BobbyT.7192

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:To answer a few questions and comments:

  1. These forums do not support a edit limitation by sub-forum. I thought of that for forums like Community Creations, when someone pointed out they might want to edit their fanfic. However, that's simply not an option. On the other hand, we are able to set limitations by user group or rank.
  2. The above means that yes, higher ranks--those who have been active with meaningful posts and reactions--will have a longer edit period.\
  3. We cannot offer edit rights for the initial post but not others, as I saw mentioned above. It's edit all or edit nothing after the proscribed editing period.
  4. You can bet I'm aware of these concerns, and I'm investigating the best way to address them.

By way of background, the edit limitation is a default function for many forums because it reduces a form of trolling: Someone insults a forum member, gets the desired heated response, then edits their comments to appear innocent of wrong-doing, after which they report the person who responded for wrongdoing. Or someone engages in hate speech, then edits hours later, having wrought some pretty nasty consequences on the community.

You can see where those kinds of manipulation could have negative consequences. What are your thoughts on those? Have you experience that sort of issue - perhaps seen such an incident on another forum? The question is one of risk versus benefit, and I'm going to look into this over the next several days to figure out whether we want to make changes, and where those changes can most effectively be implemented.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

People should quote the post they are responding to which will alleviate this issue. Bad use of forums should not be addressed by punishing those who use the forums correctly.

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[shortened quote]:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

By way of background, the edit limitation is a default function for many forums because it reduces a form of trolling: Someone insults a forum member, gets the desired heated response, then edits their comments to appear innocent of wrong-doing, after which they report the person who responded for wrongdoing. Or someone engages in hate speech, then edits hours later, having wrought some pretty nasty consequences on the community.

You can see where those kinds of manipulation could have negative consequences. What are your thoughts on those? Have you experience that sort of issue - perhaps seen such an incident on another forum? The question is one of risk versus benefit, and I'm going to look into this over the next several days to figure out whether we want to make changes, and where those changes can most effectively be implemented.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

Most modern forum solutions have the ability to roll posts back to a previous state and allow admins/moderators to view the entire edit history of a post. Moderators could easily see if a post was edited and review the original version if any suspicion of misbehaviour exists. This forum looks like Vanilla which in fact has that ability (they even advertise with it).

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Trolls exist, if you punish everyone for their misdeeds you're going about it wrong. The cons of time limits considerably exceed the benefits of no time limits. When I ran presearing.com we simply time banned the offenders for a period of time depending on their infraction up to and including full scale permanent ban-hammer action. It's quite difficult to build a community (which you already have with previous rules) when you impose time limits on their creativity and helpfulness. Punish the offenders, you have edit logs (or at least should have them enabled) to review the problems when one arises. Don't punish those who seek to help others or provide creative outlet.

We initially had the timer on for editing posts as well but with the inclusion of various boards we found it a significant hindrance to the productivity and creativity of our members so we threw it away. The site ran for a decade with a community that moderated itself after just a year as we cultivated the community with positive influence and opportunities.

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I really don't like the idea of people with a higher rank having a larger edit window. That's snobbery, and I see that becoming an issues. I have seen people who post a lot, but don't give the sort of "meaningful" content that you speak of, and I've also seen people who are not around that much, but have a wealth of information to give. I can also see how this would lead to people spamming posts simply to get to that rank, which is a problem within itself.

I don't oppose rewards for people who do contribute. I just have an issue with THIS particular thing, especially considering that I like a lot of people already dislike the editing time limit, anyway.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:To answer a few questions and comments:

  1. These forums do not support a edit limitation by sub-forum. I thought of that for forums like Community Creations, when someone pointed out they might want to edit their fanfic. However, that's simply not an option. On the other hand, we are able to set limitations by user group or rank.
  2. The above means that yes, higher ranks--those who have been active with meaningful posts and reactions--will have a longer edit period.\
  3. We cannot offer edit rights for the initial post but not others, as I saw mentioned above. It's edit all or edit nothing after the proscribed editing period.
  4. You can bet I'm aware of these concerns, and I'm investigating the best way to address them.

By way of background, the edit limitation is a default function for many forums because it reduces a form of trolling: Someone insults a forum member, gets the desired heated response, then edits their comments to appear innocent of wrong-doing, after which they report the person who responded for wrongdoing. Or someone engages in hate speech, then edits hours later, having wrought some pretty nasty consequences on the community.

You can see where those kinds of manipulation could have negative consequences. What are your thoughts on those? Have you experience that sort of issue - perhaps seen such an incident on another forum? The question is one of risk versus benefit, and I'm going to look into this over the next several days to figure out whether we want to make changes, and where those changes can most effectively be implemented.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

If it is to reduce trolling, are the forums not moderated?

Maybe work out some community moderators if staffing is an issue.

When a post gets a lot of replies and then receives an edit, flag it for review, if the poster was trolling then use the infraction system.Community moderators maybe lock/hide threads until review.Lock&hide/flag threads that receive too many downvotes.I dont know if the review system lets you see the previous post but there should be some way to improve the setup

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There are three things bothering me the most about the new forum mechanics:

  1. The limited post edit time. (I can live with it, I just don't see the point, because if it was about severe changes in content, most people quote the OP anyway.)
  2. The frequent logouts. Why?
  3. The fact that you can no longer delete your own posts. What if you realize you accidentally posted in the wrong thread?
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@Ashantara.8731 said:There are three things bothering me the most about the new forum mechanics:

  1. The limited post edit time. (I can live with it, I just don't see the point, because if it was about severe changes in content, most people quote the OP anyway.)
  2. The frequent logouts. Why?
  3. The fact that you can no longer delete your own posts. What if you realize you accidentally posted in the wrong thread?

To delete your own post: Report your own post, select "Other" and give the mods a reason. :/ That's what Gaile said in her opening post here. IMO, too many hoops to jump.

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I honestly think that time limits on forums are the antitheses of what a forum should be used for. I get that there are some trolls, but if you have decent moderation tools which allow you to see the post history then why punish everyone else?

I too would like to add my vote to removing the time limit on editing, the the pros of having it our definitely outweigh by the cons.

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P.S.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:To answer a few questions and comments:

  1. The above means that yes, higher ranks--those who have been active with meaningful posts and reactions--will have a longer edit period.\

Who gets to decide what is "meaningful"? People will have to jump through hoops in an attempt to please everyone and receive positive feedback. I don't think this is sending a positive message and certainly will leave some people feeling uncomfortable to post anything in the first place.

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:To answer a few questions and comments:

  1. These forums do not support a edit limitation by sub-forum. I thought of that for forums like Community Creations, when someone pointed out they might want to edit their fanfic. However, that's simply not an option. On the other hand, we are able to set limitations by user group or rank.
  2. The above means that yes, higher ranks--those who have been active with meaningful posts and reactions--will have a longer edit period.\
  3. We cannot offer edit rights for the initial post but not others, as I saw mentioned above. It's edit all or edit nothing after the proscribed editing period.
  4. You can bet I'm aware of these concerns, and I'm investigating the best way to address them.

By way of background, the edit limitation is a default function for many forums because it reduces a form of trolling: Someone insults a forum member, gets the desired heated response, then edits their comments to appear innocent of wrong-doing, after which they report the person who responded for wrongdoing. Or someone engages in hate speech, then edits hours later, having wrought some pretty nasty consequences on the community.

You can see where those kinds of manipulation could have negative consequences. What are your thoughts on those? Have you experience that sort of issue - perhaps seen such an incident on another forum? The question is one of risk versus benefit, and I'm going to look into this over the next several days to figure out whether we want to make changes, and where those changes can most effectively be implemented.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

Couldn't it be set up so moderators would see the original post as well as any edits made after it was posted? This way if someone makes a bad post to upset another user then edits their post and claim they did nothing wrong, a moderator can see the original unedited version of the post to get full context of what happened.

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@Charrbeque.8729 said:Couldn't it be set up so moderators would see the original post as well as any edits made after it was posted? This way if someone makes a bad post to upset another user then edits their post and claim they did nothing wrong, a moderator can see the original unedited version of the post to get full context of what happened.

That could be done, of course. But it would require a certain amount of rework of the database. Also, it would extend the capacity of space being used, which might be the main reason why ANet decided against this option.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:To answer a few questions and comments:
  1. These forums do not support a edit limitation by sub-forum. I thought of that for forums like Community Creations, when someone pointed out they might want to edit their fanfic. However, that's simply not an option. On the other hand, we are able to set limitations by user group or rank.
  2. The above means that yes, higher ranks--those who have been active with meaningful posts and reactions--will have a longer edit period.\
  3. We cannot offer edit rights for the initial post but not others, as I saw mentioned above. It's edit all or edit nothing after the proscribed editing period.
  4. You can bet I'm aware of these concerns, and I'm investigating the best way to address them.

By way of background, the edit limitation is a default function for many forums because it reduces a form of trolling: Someone insults a forum member, gets the desired heated response, then edits their comments to appear innocent of wrong-doing, after which they report the person who responded for wrongdoing. Or someone engages in hate speech, then edits hours later, having wrought some pretty nasty consequences on the community.

You can see where those kinds of manipulation could have negative consequences. What are your thoughts on those? Have you experience that sort of issue - perhaps seen such an incident on another forum? The question is one of risk versus benefit, and I'm going to look into this over the next several days to figure out whether we want to make changes, and where those changes can most effectively be implemented.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

In my experience, the risk is extremely low. Trolls usually get their posts quoted, which they have no ability to change, so they don't get away with actions like those you describe.

On the other hand, infinite edit times allow for so many useful things with forum posts, from guides, to stories, and from recruitment posts to fleshing out concept ideas for discussion. The limited edit time is without a doubt a massive detriment to the community.

Yes. Like sticked guides in the professions section. After a while the OP may need to update the guide due to changes to skills and the meta. Having a limited time to edit posts means someone making a guide would have to create a new thread then have it stickied to replace the old thread.

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@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Charrbeque.8729 said:Couldn't it be set up so moderators would see the original post as well as any edits made after it was posted? This way if someone makes a bad post to upset another user then edits their post and claim they did nothing wrong, a moderator can see the original unedited version of the post to get full context of what happened.

That could be done, of course. But it would require a certain amount of rework of the database. Also, it would extend the capacity of space being used, which might be the main reason why ANet decided against this option.

But the ability to see edited posts should be in the base moderator's ability. In fact, I read somewhere this is the same forum system as ESO, and the mods there could see original posts. Don't quote me on that, though as I may be misremembering. But mods unable to see original posts is bad forum design.

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@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:To answer a few questions and comments:

  1. These forums do not support a edit limitation by sub-forum. I thought of that for forums like Community Creations, when someone pointed out they might want to edit their fanfic. However, that's simply not an option. On the other hand, we are able to set limitations by user group or rank.
  2. The above means that yes, higher ranks--those who have been active with meaningful posts and reactions--will have a longer edit period.\
  3. We cannot offer edit rights for the initial post but not others, as I saw mentioned above. It's edit all or edit nothing after the proscribed editing period.
  4. You can bet I'm aware of these concerns, and I'm investigating the best way to address them.

By way of background, the edit limitation is a default function for many forums because it reduces a form of trolling: Someone insults a forum member, gets the desired heated response, then edits their comments to appear innocent of wrong-doing, after which they report the person who responded for wrongdoing. Or someone engages in hate speech, then edits hours later, having wrought some pretty nasty consequences on the community.

You can see where those kinds of manipulation could have negative consequences. What are your thoughts on those? Have you experience that sort of issue - perhaps seen such an incident on another forum? The question is one of risk versus benefit, and I'm going to look into this over the next several days to figure out whether we want to make changes, and where those changes can most effectively be implemented.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

I appreciate the answer, but I have a few concerns with it.

Chiefly - In these new forums, the quote doesn't link to the comment quoted, but instead to the user's profile. This allows trolling in the opposite direction (i.e. "quoting" someone and writing down words that they never actually said). This defeats the purpose of reducing trolling, since it doesn't actually make trolling harder, it just reverses the direction of the trolling. As for the potential issue itself, I have very rarely seen it in action, and when it happens its generally pretty easy to see so, because the troll in person is usually fairly toxic to begin with. Not to mention, if you simply keep a timestamp of when the edit was made, it makes it easier to identify this kind of trolling. If the post was edited after a reply to it, then it likely was edited to make the original comment sound nicer/go in a different direction entirely.

Plus, this wasn't a problem on the old forums, so why should it be a problem here?

I really hope you guys re-consider the edit limitation and make it unlimited again. I also hope that you can improve the quote feature to link to the comment in question, and not the person's profile.

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I haven't personally encountered any situation where editing a post after the fact caused issues in the subsequent discussion, most people seemed to be focused on saying what they wanted to say in the way they wanted to say it and don't seem to retract their words.

There are a lot of cases where editing is necessary, guides as mentioned, for example profession's build pages. I know there are great players who leave guides and so on and then go back to edit it and update according to updates/changes in the game and classes. They may leave a notice of when was the last update to these guides. I think this is an important feature on the forum and very helpful to players.

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Blocking the majority from effectively using a system in order to stifle negative activity by a very very small minority is a horrible design philosophy. By that logic, Penicillin would have been banned because a few people were allergic. Design for the majority and deal with the minority when needed. Don't break your own design anticipating a possible issue.

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@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:To answer a few questions and comments:

  1. These forums do not support a edit limitation by sub-forum. I thought of that for forums like Community Creations, when someone pointed out they might want to edit their fanfic. However, that's simply not an option. On the other hand, we are able to set limitations by user group or rank.
  2. The above means that yes, higher ranks--those who have been active with meaningful posts and reactions--will have a longer edit period.\
  3. We cannot offer edit rights for the initial post but not others, as I saw mentioned above. It's edit all or edit nothing after the proscribed editing period.
  4. You can bet I'm aware of these concerns, and I'm investigating the best way to address them.

By way of background, the edit limitation is a default function for many forums because it reduces a form of trolling: Someone insults a forum member, gets the desired heated response, then edits their comments to appear innocent of wrong-doing, after which they report the person who responded for wrongdoing. Or someone engages in hate speech, then edits hours later, having wrought some pretty nasty consequences on the community.

You can see where those kinds of manipulation could have negative consequences. What are your thoughts on those? Have you experience that sort of issue - perhaps seen such an incident on another forum? The question is one of risk versus benefit, and I'm going to look into this over the next several days to figure out whether we want to make changes, and where those changes can most effectively be implemented.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

Many years ago, in a space that will be gone in a month, we had a similar conversation. (with Gaile, myself and others.) Back then, the company that developed your forum codes was no longer in business, or something like that, so you and we were stuck with what we had. Asked for items received the response "We can't do anything about that. No one can, since we dont have forum support any more." I THINK that was like a year after launch-ish. (Ok, so it was 9 months ago, )

Are we already getting that these forums can NOT be altered/changed as ANet needs, because the forums are outsourced again?

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@Gaile Gray.6029 said:To answer a few questions and comments:

  1. These forums do not support a edit limitation by sub-forum. I thought of that for forums like Community Creations, when someone pointed out they might want to edit their fanfic. However, that's simply not an option. On the other hand, we are able to set limitations by user group or rank.
  2. The above means that yes, higher ranks--those who have been active with meaningful posts and reactions--will have a longer edit period.\
  3. We cannot offer edit rights for the initial post but not others, as I saw mentioned above. It's edit all or edit nothing after the proscribed editing period.
  4. You can bet I'm aware of these concerns, and I'm investigating the best way to address them.

By way of background, the edit limitation is a default function for many forums because it reduces a form of trolling: Someone insults a forum member, gets the desired heated response, then edits their comments to appear innocent of wrong-doing, after which they report the person who responded for wrongdoing. Or someone engages in hate speech, then edits hours later, having wrought some pretty nasty consequences on the community.

You can see where those kinds of manipulation could have negative consequences. What are your thoughts on those? Have you experience that sort of issue - perhaps seen such an incident on another forum? The question is one of risk versus benefit, and I'm going to look into this over the next several days to figure out whether we want to make changes, and where those changes can most effectively be implemented.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

Gaile, as someone who needs to edit my content index on this forum, amongst correcting my 4am typos, I'd very much appreciate either a new rank being added for content creators / guide makers (like they did on ESO forums) and allowing us infinite timeframe to edit our posts.

Don't punish the good because of the actions of the bad.

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@Cronos.6532 said:I did some research. ArenaNet is using Vanilla boards, so it's possible that the edit time could be a month, depending on how they configured it.

A month would be preferable to 15 minutes, for sure. But I wish they'd let us edit our posts whenever needed. Usually, combative posts are reported or quoted sufficiently that trolling by changing posts isn't really much of a problem.

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@Celtic Lady.3729 said:

@Cronos.6532 said:I did some research. ArenaNet is using Vanilla boards, so it's possible that the edit time could be a month, depending on how they configured it.

A month would be preferable to 15 minutes, for sure. But I wish they'd let us edit our posts whenever needed. Usually, combative posts are reported or quoted sufficiently that trolling by changing posts isn't really much of a problem.

While not ideal for everyone, a month editing time would be sufficient for >99% of comments made in the general forums (disregarding the fan creations one forum, since it can involve stories and other posts that require frequent editing). If that's the best we can get, I'd gladly take it, though I would prefer the old forums' unlimited editing if we can get that.

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