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The baffling design of Revenants lately.


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Alright, we've had nearly an entire year of expansion here to make a concrete judgment. The latest spear idea has brought a lot of starkness into contrast here, and honestly just disappoints me since rev and vindicator specifically is the spec I love to play.

Despite clear outcries and valid points being made, ANet has shown an unwillingness to listen to feedback from the revenant player base over their "vision" of what they have in mind. Their current criteria appears to make as minimal changes with the least effort, to the class effects anyways, as possible and continue on a train of thought thinking that players are happy with it as is going forward. Nothing exemplifies this more than Vindicator and the ham fisted bludgeoning the spec, and revenants as a whole, have been taking since SotO was announced. And honestly, the dismissive "we are happy with how it turned out" shows clear disrespect for the player base.

There are very few who will say the revenant scepter is good. The reality is it's a pitiful support weapon, very unintuitive, and its design is a complete anathema to how they want us to use it, never mind the insult of "beeg laz0r" weapon that looks so childish it's an embarrassment to use it outside of a funny haha moment. Its mechanics do not jive well with the shield, its intended partner per ANet's own ideals, and instead puts a lot of busy work to maximize its potential as a support weapon versus most other support based weapons (not including poor thieves and their scepter but at least it's useful for DPS).

Herald was mechanically changed to fit the "vision" and despite them trying to make that square peg go through the round hole, have decided that herald should not be viable support unless you are constantly burning energy and stance swapping. Due to this philosophy, despite being very well balanced for support DPS, it is actually pretty rough on heal supports, especially when healing requires timing for things that thanks to the energy requirements inherent in revenant design means you are more likely to be out of stance when you need it the most. Never mind some of our best support tools being tied to different weapons instead of inherent (aka aegis and cleansing).

Renegade has been stuck with a change that basically took what little heal support power they even had and chucked it out the window. Mechanically, Kalla has barely anything to offer heal support now, and orders from above for alacrity requires taking concentration to make it viable for the spec as an alac DPS due to no buffed concentration support like herald gets in this. The changes make it clear that Kalla is meant more for pure DPS these days but because of this unwillingness to change things, it's left with a button that they tend to balance the entire thing around and is actually superfluous to renegade as a whole.

Then there is vindicator... oh boy it feels like ANet wanted to take a sledge hammer to this spec with how often they kept hammering home design changes that made no sense. Nerfing greatsword because herald DPS started matching other A/QDPS, then tried to claim a compensation in the spec line. Then removing support abilities that actually gave vindicators some purpose, reducing damage output, and many other factors. It all reeks of ANet being upset we are not playing their way instead of the way that has been established for several years and the direction players had been expecting and hoping the game would go.

So what would I change? Well anyone who has read my posts know where this is going. And I am sure some will be upset with these suggestions but at this point if we are going to follow ANet's "vision" which is two support specs and one heavy DPS spec, then I think this change is basically going to be needed going forward.

First and foremost, change Renegade to be the heavy DPS spec of revenants. It's already pretty much our best DPS spec now these days so might as well lean into that. Take alacrity off Orders from Above and move it over to Vindicator, changing what it does if not outright removing this power completely. More on how I see that working in a bit. Kalla should have three clear specs that devote towards power, condition and self defensive. As an army, that is how I see it working out for renegade.

Vindicator potential changes I would go with are (suggestions are offering multiple angles and areas and aren't all meant to be taken as everything or nothing);

  • Increase the number of stacks of Might that Amnesty of Shing Jea grants.
  • Change Song of Arboreum to now include that Energy Meld now also grants Alacrity. In addition have it grant Might and Fury to allies in an area when using Selfless Spirit (as a possibility).
  • Imperial Impact I would remove the protection and have it increase condition damage inflicted giving the spec a condition damage component boost it lacks.
  • Saint's Shield I would slightly reduce the radius to 260, let it grant might and fury, and give it the added component of granting additional concentration based on a percentage of power, much like Herald Elevated Compassion. Finally add in a component that when using Urn of St. Viktor when you use Selfless Spirit you pull downstate allies within 240 radius to you and attempt to revive them from downstate. Alternatively it could be when you smash the Urn or Saint Viktor, all downstate allies are brought to the vindicator. This effect should have a cooldown on it to prevent abuse of course.
  • Battle Dance should cleanse up to 2 conditions in addition to what it has.
  • Tree Song should grant protection in addition to the regeneration and healing it provides.
  • Awakening's stability needs to have its duration increased as well as offering at least 3 stacks and have it affect allies.
  • Urn of Saint Viktor needs to grant super speed and the self damage component should not be triggering combat so the speed component doesn't get nullified. The threshold of perks should also not be so high as it isn't a viable asset to use in most cases. The urn also prevents the revenant from healing themselves so the perks should not be so minimal as they currently are presented as well.

There are of course other ways to handle this, one such as removing the alliance stance dance and like the mechanist making your choices in your spec tree decide which portion of the alliance you take. There is a lot that can be done here, such as even offering the players to choose which of the two alliance abilities to have active on their bar, but Vindicator should not be going to waste as it has been. It has been offering the most potential for a support spec for revenants that aligns with other support specs but it is not being capitalized on and it really needs to be.

Edited by Ravenwulfe.5360
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I think bad rev changes hit real strong cause you can't like, change skills around and stuff so each one needs to be good or it just always feels worse. Not that other classes having a utility made worse feels good either but the builds can be adjusted as long as bad changes don't keep happening.

I dont know if my random thoughts are relevant here but yea...I never use renegades alacrity because it feels so pointless especially For the revenant cause using skills faster means using energy faster and that always has a set timer for swapping and getting energy back. But maybe I'm just bad at energy management...

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Yeah, I've been getting more and more down on revenant in the last few packs. Quickherald is doing okay, but that's about it, and the new weapons since EoD have not been coherent. It's also very questionable that every elite spec seems to have been designed as a hybrid DPS/support, but the one elite specialisation that has a legend that's really suitable for being paired with Ventari as a healer is the one where quickness/alacrity is conspicuously absent. It'll probably never happen, but at this point, you're probably right in that the profession as a whole would probably be better off if alacrity was moved to Vindicator, and Renegade shifted to be more of a DPS spec as you suggest.

13 hours ago, Isopod.4156 said:

I think bad rev changes hit real strong cause you can't like, change skills around and stuff so each one needs to be good or it just always feels worse. Not that other classes having a utility made worse feels good either but the builds can be adjusted as long as bad changes don't keep happening.

Yeah, pretty much. There are some exceptions, but other professions often have another utility that does something at least similar if a given utility skill gets nerfed, or if it comes down to it, if a previously key utility is nerfed too hard they can just do without that functionality and swap in something else. Rev is stuck with a dead button.

I remember having a big argument a year or two ago regarding Shiro's energy costs in PvE - they were mostly set during the period before PvE and competitive balancing was split, and how often do you really use Shiro legend skills apart from IO or the heal in PvE? It happens, but not often.

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As I've said a million times, many Rev nerfs, especially nerfs to Core Legends and traitlines, were indirectly caused by the overpowering nature of Elite specs at the time. Herald especially has indirectly caused specifically Shiro and Invocation to be nerfed several times, and Swords as well was nerfed thanks to the popular Assassin Shiro Herald build.

With Herald finally nerfed, I think many of these nerfs targeting Offhand Sword, Incensed Response and just Invocation in general needs to be reverted and I still think that till this day. 

And of course the main problem of Revenant and their utilities is that if you nerf 1 utility, you essentially nerf the whole Legend. Especially things like Energy increase nerfs will severely impact playstyle and flow of the entire Legend. That's why Shiro in PvP after the PT nerf and Energy spike increases have become very unattractive to play. This is made worse when you realize that Revenants have very pigeon-holded Legends per build so you are doomed if your build in competitive is Power for example and you have to make do with a paralyzed Shiro. 

My desires for Revenant now:

- Shiro rework

- Corruption total revert 

- Devastation total revert

- Invocation nerf reverts 

- Offhand Swords rework/buff

- Staff rework 

 

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Posted (edited)

I can agree with that @Yasai.3549. It's been rather silly how much ANet has hammered on revs over the years, and it still keeps bringing home the idea they do it because they got beat one time in PvP. We are suppose to be calling on powerful legends of Tyria yet most of the time it feels like we are being burdened more than calling on them. And let's not even get into the expensive energy costs they've been coming up with lately for powers.

Honestly, I would say if Shiro got a rework one thing that should be added is that Shiro gives revs ambushes. But I know that would never happen because it makes sense.

Honestly I would love staff animation stance to be changed. The spear stance would work great for it, instead of us holding it like a kitten hammer to boot.

Edited by Ravenwulfe.5360
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The one thing that has actually bugged me this entire time is how the background art for this very website on on the forums shows a Revenant wielding a dagger, but we've never had access to the dagger since revenants inception.

Honestly I think our next legend we get should have a thief focus, providing us with a sneak attack option and daggers as well, or maybe mix of dagger pistol. I think that would go a long way to and perhaps should write something up that uses a mix of thievery and perhaps even has a mist portal option for us and others.

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4 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

The one thing that has actually bugged me this entire time is how the background art for this very website on on the forums shows a Revenant wielding a dagger, but we've never had access to the dagger since revenants inception.

Honestly I think our next legend we get should have a thief focus, providing us with a sneak attack option and daggers as well, or maybe mix of dagger pistol. I think that would go a long way to and perhaps should write something up that uses a mix of thievery and perhaps even has a mist portal option for us and others.

Funny how the Retribution representative is a Sylvari holding a Dagger lol.

Would be cool to explore a more slippery Revenant spec which doesn't really "Stealth" but has many disjoints via entering and exiting portals. The idea of a Revenant that abuses the ability to enter the Mist and then exit at anytime to ambush is pretty interesting fantasy, just not in the way of Stealth mechanic.

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1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Funny how the Retribution representative is a Sylvari holding a Dagger lol.

Would be cool to explore a more slippery Revenant spec which doesn't really "Stealth" but has many disjoints via entering and exiting portals. The idea of a Revenant that abuses the ability to enter the Mist and then exit at anytime to ambush is pretty interesting fantasy, just not in the way of Stealth mechanic.

Since Shiro is an assassin they could rework him for ambush style attacks based on certain maneuvers, but that would be unlikely. We would more likely get some new legendary spec that has an ambush playstyle on it with some thief from legend or mesmer to emphasize it. Assassin's being a Cantha class, there isn't a lot to pull from sadly, that route, so either be someone fresh or we will revisit Cantha and they will bring forth someone like Nika as our legend but that would have 3 tied to Shiro at that point.

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1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Since Shiro is an assassin they could rework him for ambush style attacks based on certain maneuvers, but that would be unlikely. We would more likely get some new legendary spec that has an ambush playstyle on it with some thief from legend or mesmer to emphasize it. Assassin's being a Cantha class, there isn't a lot to pull from sadly, that route, so either be someone fresh or we will revisit Cantha and they will bring forth someone like Nika as our legend but that would have 3 tied to Shiro at that point.

isn't shiro supposed to be the ultimate assassin?

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

isn't shiro supposed to be the ultimate assassin?

No, Shiro is the one who murdered the Emperor and started the Jade Winds (Archemerus and St. Viktor zu Heltzer were the ones who ended him along with Vizu) that caused all that Jade around Cantha, hence his powers being named with jade and having that slight green tinge. Of course he tried to resurrect himself as well as being one of Abaddon's generals in the afterlife to.

Nika is the face of the Factions expansion box for Guild Wars, and also an assassin, a decendant of Vizu.

Problem with Shiro legend, as he stands now, he's more of a warrior than an assassin. Hell most of his moves are more about brutal upfront assault than being an assassin.

We have a lot of options to draw from, ironically, when it comes to a more ambush style spec, but all of them would essentially be Canthan, as far as names known from Guild Wars history. Though if I am being honest I would not be bothered to revisit Cantha some more. There is a lot of unexplored territory there and it feels like they left a lot of potential on the floor for season updates. Kind of disappointing the ending we got was the Delve, to be honest when you have so much there such as;

Kinya Province

Togo's Estate

Ruins of Old Kaineng

Maishang Archipelagos

Eternal Grove

Right now just a lot of wasted potential, and they could have started there instead of what SotO went for. But we will see how Janthir turns out.

Edited by Ravenwulfe.5360
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1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

isn't shiro supposed to be the ultimate assassin?

assassin in name, technically assassin class in gw1 iirc
but uses warrior animations and his skills aren't anything like assassin ones

pretty sure he gets the name solely for killing the emperor

highly recommend going through the campaigns and playing it if you haven't, gw1's a great game honestly

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2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

isn't shiro supposed to be the ultimate assassin?

He isn't which is what was annoying from the get go when they demo'd him and implemented him.

He was the Legendary Traitor and Paranoid megalomaniac who refused to die, but the ultimate Assassin should rightfully be Nika who took an opportunistic strike to injure Shiro so that Alliance wondertwins could slay him.

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6 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Since Shiro is an assassin they could rework him for ambush style attacks based on certain maneuvers, but that would be unlikely. We would more likely get some new legendary spec that has an ambush playstyle on it with some thief from legend or mesmer to emphasize it. Assassin's being a Cantha class, there isn't a lot to pull from sadly, that route, so either be someone fresh or we will revisit Cantha and they will bring forth someone like Nika as our legend but that would have 3 tied to Shiro at that point.

I'd really prefer to avoid legends that are just a member of another profession - rev should be copying things that aren't just another profession. Reject random thief or mesmer, embrace Svanir.

And introduce a secret achievement and title for killing Sons of Svanir while channelling Svanir.

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36 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'd really prefer to avoid legends that are just a member of another profession - rev should be copying things that aren't just another profession. Reject random thief or mesmer, embrace Svanir.

And introduce a secret achievement and title for killing Sons of Svanir while channelling Svanir.

Will that make me being able to summon svanir as teamates instead in pvp???

These will be easier to command and focus the targets I call 🤔

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1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Will that make me being able to summon svanir as teamates instead in pvp???

These will be easier to command and focus the targets I call 🤔

Probably not. My thought process was that when you fight Svanir in GW1, he keeps disappearing, and you have to channel the wolf to find him again. In a GW2 context this could be interpreted as a Svanir legend having stealth.

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4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'd really prefer to avoid legends that are just a member of another profession - rev should be copying things that aren't just another profession. Reject random thief or mesmer, embrace Svanir.

And introduce a secret achievement and title for killing Sons of Svanir while channelling Svanir.

I doubt we would see a Svanir, more likely a Koda in this case.

Ooo this just came to mind and would be perfect; Next legend being Captain Mai Trin (she's actually listed as a thief/revenant) weapons would be dagger main hand pistol off hand. Honestly would prefer her way more as well (never mind Scarlet is a terrible choice and an engineer anyways). Especially since she did have a bit of redemption towards the end to. I am going to do some brain storming on this thought.

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I will repeat what I already wrote in another topic: "Can we ask for a change in the developer responsible for revenant? We need someone who is committed, knows the class and its history and can create something useful, nice and enjoyable."

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1 minute ago, Ephyr.2175 said:

I will repeat what I already wrote in another topic: "Can we ask for a change in the developer responsible for revenant? We need someone who is committed, knows the class and its history and can create something useful, nice and enjoyable."

I mean many of us have said that already including myself.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Ooo this just came to mind and would be perfect; Next legend being Captain Mai Trin (she's actually listed as a thief/revenant) weapons would be dagger main hand pistol off hand. Honestly would prefer her way more as well (never mind Scarlet is a terrible choice and an engineer anyways). Especially since she did have a bit of redemption towards the end to. I am going to do some brain storming on this thought.

I rather channel Scarlet using Prime Hologram as its unique mechanic.

Legend swapping will invoke a Prime Hologram of the Legend you swapped into, which will auto attack with unique properties. You can then control the Prime Hologram with Ranger's pet system for Attack, Regroup and Cast special. Cast special will be unique per Legend, either a damaging or supportive utility. 

As for utilities, it would be more of Scarlet's unique expertise as a saboteur instead of LOL ENGI. Things like setting up traps and deploying Hallucination toxins to condition and debilitate foes would be an interesting Condition build alternative than Kalla's godawful Summon dumping. 

Edited by Yasai.3549
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Posted (edited)

Honestly I hate Scarlet. Just a terribly bland NPC in the end. I mean she got dethroned recently by Ankka wanting to end the world just because she didn't get her Gorrik ride, but she definitely rubbed me the wrong way because of just being Harley Quinn wannabe.

Edited by Ravenwulfe.5360
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7 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Honestly I hate Scarlet. Just a terribly bland NPC in the end. I mean she got dethroned recently by Ankka wanting to end the world just because she didn't get her Gorrik ride, but she definitely rubbed me the wrong way because of just being Harley Quinn wannabe.

Aetherblades as a whole did not get a whole lot of fleshing out, so glad that at least Mai Trin got some additional character expansion in EoD. I bet back then, they really didn't think too much about Aetherblades, just using them as a Lmao faction to use and throw out the window after LW1 was done. 

As for being a Harley Quinn wannabe, I feel like that's an impression only one can get from her LW1 portrayal. I think it's unfair to see her only like that considering in LW2 it shows her rocky life path as well as being carelessly treated despite her intelligence and talents. Omadd literally just looked for her only to test his little experiment machine which was what caused her to tap into the Eternal Alchemy and start her "Harley Quinn arc" but that's not because she was a crazy loon who wanted to sow chaos and destruction, it's because at that point she has been essentially corrupted by Mordremoth's original programming of the Sylvari people, but left much of her own personality in tact to operate using her genius. Scarlet Briar honestly is actually more of a Dragon Champion, much like the Commander and Ryland. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Aetherblades as a whole did not get a whole lot of fleshing out, so glad that at least Mai Trin got some additional character expansion in EoD. I bet back then, they really didn't think too much about Aetherblades, just using them as a Lmao faction to use and throw out the window after LW1 was done. 

As for being a Harley Quinn wannabe, I feel like that's an impression only one can get from her LW1 portrayal. I think it's unfair to see her only like that considering in LW2 it shows her rocky life path as well as being carelessly treated despite her intelligence and talents. Omadd literally just looked for her only to test his little experiment machine which was what caused her to tap into the Eternal Alchemy and start her "Harley Quinn arc" but that's not because she was a crazy loon who wanted to sow chaos and destruction, it's because at that point she has been essentially corrupted by Mordremoth's original programming of the Sylvari people, but left much of her own personality in tact to operate using her genius. Scarlet Briar honestly is actually more of a Dragon Champion, much like the Commander and Ryland. 

 

She was Mordremoth's champion but doesn't really forgive how one note she was. Never mind how janky and unconnected the entire season 1 arc was, and how they had to really reach to make it all fit together in some semblance of cohesiveness. In season 2, you get a peak at Scarlet before, yes, but it really doesn't forgive who she was in the end, and how one note she was at that. It's why I suggest Mai Trin with a dash of Scarlet influence on top.

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14 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I doubt we would see a Svanir, more likely a Koda in this case.

Ooo this just came to mind and would be perfect; Next legend being Captain Mai Trin (she's actually listed as a thief/revenant) weapons would be dagger main hand pistol off hand. Honestly would prefer her way more as well (never mind Scarlet is a terrible choice and an engineer anyways). Especially since she did have a bit of redemption towards the end to. I am going to do some brain storming on this thought.

Koda is probably too big to be a legend (being an actual god)*, and while each new elite specialisation feels like it's pushed down the criteria to be a legend, I think Mai Trin still falls well short of the criteria. Her impact started with being Scarlet's lackey and ended with preventing Ankka from blowing up the reactor altogether rather than just overcharging Soo-Won.

We have seen, however, that "dragon champion" is at a suitable level, if that dragon champion had a significant impact in the world rather than just showing up in one or two battles and being defeated. Glint qualifies. Scarlet qualifies, but I think ArenaNet has set up a policy that the PC won't channel their own antagonists except for once-only brief periods (the Doylist reason probably being that they don't want players channelling that legend against the villain, and the Watsonian reason seems to be that the PC just doesn't like it, and it might also be just too dangerous to host a legend that personally hates you). Svanir, in that context, seems to tick the boxes - dragon champion, had enough of an impact the the Sons of Svanir were a major faction in the Shiverpeaks at least until Jormag's death (we don't really know what's happened to them since), but was not a personal antagonist of the PC. Would also fit well due to being a legend that comes from norn history.

He's not the only possibility for a future legend in general, but if it's a case of choosing a legend that might allow for stealth, he might be a good choice on that basis.

*I don't know if this was a point you were making, but since the upcoming expansion isn't coming with a legend, I don't think the theme of the expansion points to Koda being a possible legend - if and when we do get another legend, it'll be some other expansion and it's hard to predict the theme at this point. Besides, the lowland kodan are apparently no longer following Koda - if they DID have a legend, it might be more likely to be whoever led the migration.

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3 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

She was Mordremoth's champion but doesn't really forgive how one note she was. Never mind how janky and unconnected the entire season 1 arc was, and how they had to really reach to make it all fit together in some semblance of cohesiveness. In season 2, you get a peak at Scarlet before, yes, but it really doesn't forgive who she was in the end, and how one note she was at that. It's why I suggest Mai Trin with a dash of Scarlet influence on top.

If Scarlet is one note than Braham is kinda the same deal to be fair. And Braham has way more screen time and chance to expand.

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