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Torment is condi, Life siphon is power...


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Posted (edited)

Is it possible that the devs are stuck on the idea that any new necromancer condi stuff need to vomit torment and any new necromancer "power" stuff need to revolve around life siphon?

2 torment based elite specializations followed by 2 life siphon based weapon skillsets... Is the necromancer's thematic so narrow that they can only do this much?

  • Spite is vulnerability, might and used to have some amount of retaliation through spiteful spirit. In fact, in GW1 the necromancer was quite good at punishing his foe for being aggressive toward him and his allies. Why don't we have something that revolve around confusion?
  • Death magic is all about minions and poison. Yet we can count on a single hand the number of weapon skills (and shroud skills) that apply poison...
  • Alright, the dark theme is at the core of the necromancer. Dark fields are associated to life siphon and dark aura are associated to torment. But here is the thing... If Necromancer is overflowing with dark fields, he barely have any access to dark aura. Why?
  • A heavy part of the necromancer's thematic revolve around manipulating conditions... Where did this thematic go? "Suffer!" introduced in 2015 is the last time a skill transfering a condition was given to the necromancer.
  • At PoF release, the necromancer had the ability to cripple his foes almost everywhere in his kit. Somehow the cripple output became meager since then, new tools systematically favoring chill.
  • The necromancer heavily favor fear as a CC. Many traits are dedicated to this specific condition. So why do we see new tools that focus on introducing different CC with close to 0 support from the traitlines?
  • Necromancer and Endurance. The necromancer is good at draining ressources from his foes yet he can't seem to be able to drain endurance. Why? The necromancer is good at sacrificing everything as a fuel for his skills and trait yet endurance seem to be an elusive ressource for this profession. Why?
  • The necromancer can eat LF for sustain, eat his foe's health for sustain, eat his own health for sustain, eat conditions for sustain. Why can't he eat his foes' boons for sustain?

What is going on? Did the devs somehow tunel vision through more than half the thematic of the necromancer in recent years?

Would it have been difficult to create a weapon that revolve around Dark aura? I mean, is it hard to give a leap finisher to a weaponset? Couldn't they make a weapon that automatically corrupt incoming auras into dark aura? Elementalists can transmute their various auras, Berserkers can break a fire aura, is it difficult to give necromancer skills that work this way? We've got traits that get effects under certain conditions, would it be difficult to create a skill that have an additional effect when you are under the effect of a dark aura? The possibilities are endless, why are the devs looking away?

Can't we have a weapon that make use of glancing blow? Give all skill an inate high percentage of glancing blow which can be brought to 100% when under the effect of weakness. Then you just have to make the skills apply a desirable effect when landing a glancing blow. An AA that apply poison on glancing blow. A CC that apply confusion on a glancing blow... etc. A weapon theme revolving around your foe thinking that they narrowly escaped death yet fell to it's inexorable grasp.

Here is a short list of effects already in the game that the necromancer could do with:

  • AA: Splash effect/bouncing projectile/engineer's fragmentation's shot mechanism (one of the game mechanic I enjoyed the most when this skill could be traited to pierce foes)
  • Mobility: Leap finisher/charge/shadow step forward/shadow step backward.
  • Pulsing area of effect (GS is the only necromancer's weapon with a pulsing area of effect so far)
  • Skill similar to lich's summon madness. It's one of the coolest skill concept of the necromancer's kit and yet it's gated behind a 150s CD.
  • Fantasms (they can be called differently for necromancer if they want but I definitely feel that summoning a short duration malevolent spirit to harm my foes is a necromancer's job!)
  • ... etc. (Feel free to add anything that come to mind)
Edited by Dadnir.5038
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Posted (edited)

Great write up. 

As for why this is the case, I feel pretty strongly that there hasn't been a Dev on the Skills&Balance Team (or whatever they are called these days) who has been knowledgeable, or let alone passionate, about the Necromancer Profession in a good 7 years. 

The amount of balance changes that miss the mark, the lack of general design updates for the profession - which then also largely miss the mark, the lack of synergies in new additions and the overall just blandness this profession experienced over the last few years especially at least strongly looks like Necromancer largely gets some leftover design bits and skill prototypes, which then get Torment or Siphons slapped on them to fit in "thematically" - or that's what they were to begin with.

Because you are right, there are near endless possibilities. Many of which have been discussed on this Forum, many times over the last decade+. 

Be it how to make a Minion Mancer work for this Game in many different ways. Ideas like giving Death Magic a Potent Poison like Trait/line, either in addition to or replacing Putrid Defense, enabling/expanding the design space for Poison on Necro. Or how to make Blood Magic more broadly interesting, effective and thematically potent, without being mechanically crippled by and sprinkled on as Life Siphon everywhere. And much else. 

The design space is sheer limitless but that creativity and passion clearly either isn't on the team, or the games code truly is such a complete mess that the pain of implementation takes the joy, fun and uniqueness out of every design by the time it works. 

I also feel like the addition of Revenant in 2015 with HoT hurt Necromancer design more than anything else (since someone came up with the Shroud design for launch at least), as I feel much of their design space overlaps - and their core (esp. Trait) design framework is incredibly similar.

For example Revs Devastation line is basically an updated and better Spite (plus the imo missing selfish DPS and sustain line of Blood Magic).

Rev's Corruption line took Necromancer's "Master of Conditions" like a relay baton and ran with it. Things like Pact of Pain, Abyssal Chill, Invoking Torment upon entering Shroud, Resistance, Condi transfers - it's all a perfect fit for Necromancer. 

It's almost like someone had all these ideas on how to update 2012 Necromancer, but then had to make a new Profession in 2015 with HoT - and that's where all those went. And now Necromancer instead is still stuck with pretty much 2012 Traits like Death's Embrace "Deal more Strike Damage while Downed" or Siphoned Power, while Devastation got added and overhauled like three times since.

TL;DR:

Maybe it's a bit too tinfoil hat, but getting only Strike Damage, Life Steal and Torment smells a lot like leftover Rev designs/prototypes which didn't make the cut. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there is just one or two devs having to do all of Rev -> Thief -> Necro, and are probably largely doing so in that order. 

With what we are getting, I just can't imagine even a single dev being really passionate and knowledgeable about Necro on the team, as all these changes and additions feel like someone played the Profession for an hour or two for work, while trying to interpret player feedback they don't fully grasp/are lacking context for to properly evaluate.

 

Edited by Asum.4960
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On 7/1/2024 at 11:38 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:
  • At PoF release, the necromancer had the ability to cripple his foes almost everywhere in his kit. Somehow the cripple output became meager since then, new tools systematically favoring chill.
  • The necromancer heavily favor fear as a CC. Many traits are dedicated to this specific condition. So why do we see new tools that focus on introducing different CC with close to 0 support from the traitlines?

Those 2 point are almost funny

On the first one, you're mad that cripple, with litterally 0 trait synergy, got less exposure than chill, who have a massive trait synergy.

On the second one, you're complaining that they are diversifying the cc type, instead of using fear who also got trait synergy.

Choose a stance, you can't complain for both side.

On 7/1/2024 at 11:38 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The necromancer can eat LF for sustain, eat his foe's health for sustain, eat his own health for sustain, eat conditions for sustain. Why can't he eat his foes' boons for sustain

I guess Signet of locust, Feed from corruption, Nourishing ashes and Blighter's boon don't exist for you.

On 7/1/2024 at 11:38 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Death magic is all about minions and poison. Yet we can count on a single hand the number of weapon skills (and shroud skills) that apply poison...

That's false. While necro isn't the best poison user, it got plenty of it in his kit

 

On 7/1/2024 at 11:38 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Necromancer and Endurance. The necromancer is good at draining ressources from his foes yet he can't seem to be able to drain endurance. Why? The necromancer is good at sacrificing everything as a fuel for his skills and trait yet endurance seem to be an elusive ressource for this profession. Why?

Well, first, I don't think there is even a single thing in the game that can remove endurance, it may not be possible.

As for using endurance, dodge is basically the only active defense of the necro, than don't realy seem wise too pick into the only necro defense to fuel skill.

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29 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

That's false. While necro isn't the best poison user, it got plenty of it in his kit

You just have to count: Chillblain (staff), Vile blast (Pistol), Putrid curse (scepter), Soul Spiral (Reaper shroud) and Traited Dark Barrage (Harbinger shroud). Weapon and Shroud: 5 skills exactly.

35 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Well, first, I don't think there is even a single thing in the game that can remove endurance, it may not be possible.

As for using endurance, dodge is basically the only active defense of the necro, than don't realy seem wise too pick into the only necro defense to fuel skill.

So dodging remove endurance? Actually many things interact with endurance, you can increase it's generation (vigor, traits, skills, food), reduce it's generation (weakness), completely stop it's generation (exhaustion) or even gain a set amount (skills and traits). There is no reason for not being able to use it for something else or damaging the endurance bar. And that's especially true since it's possible to use health as a cost for skills.

42 minutes ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Those 2 point are almost funny

On the first one, you're mad that cripple, with litterally 0 trait synergy, got less exposure than chill, who have a massive trait synergy.

On the second one, you're complaining that they are diversifying the cc type, instead of using fear who also got trait synergy.

Choose a stance, you can't complain for both side.

My stance is more historical than logical. Necromancer didn't use to have much chill before HoT but it did have a lot of cripple. As for Hard CC fear has always been dominant and Harbinger not having fear on both it's weapon and shroud is something that feel out of place.

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2 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Torment does seem to be their favorite these days, true. Unclear if that's laziness or a decision that it's easier to balance around than adding a variety would be. 🤷‍♂️

To be fair, Torment just happens to have become one of the Necromancers major conditions. I'd also argue that Scourge is just as much - if not more - Burning and Habringer Poison respectively. In the end, Necromancers only lack access to Confusion I don't think that's an issue.

However, the most recent choice with more Chill and Lifesteal on Spear after Swords, I do not understand.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

To be fair, Torment just happens to have become one of the Necromancers major conditions. I'd also argue that Scourge is just as much - if not more - Burning and Habringer Poison respectively. In the end, Necromancers only lack access to Confusion I don't think that's an issue.

However, the most recent choice with more Chill and Lifesteal on Spear after Swords, I do not understand.

cScourge is around 46% Torment, 22.5% Bleeding, 16% Burning, 7% Poison and 8.5% Strike Damage.

cHarbinger is around 50.5% Torment, 17% Bleeding, 11% Burning, 8% Poison, 1% Confusion and 12.5% Strike Damage.

 

As for Necromancer missing Confusion, I think it's mostly just us old GW1 players who find it unfortunate, considering GW1 Necromancer Skills like Spiteful Spirit and Insidious Parasite (combined with things like Reckless Haste) are what inspired the GW2 Condition, alongside Mesmer's Empathy. But while Mesmer got it aplenty, for some reason Necromancer ended up having some of the least access to it in GW2. 

Necromancer already lost so much of it's theme from GW1 with all of it's unique Curses being replaced by the shared generic Condition System of this sequel - it then also not even getting the more unique and interesting Conditions (from 2012 until 2017 with PoF introducing Scourge, Necro was almost exclusively Bleed) which it inspired definitely was, and in the case of "Confusion" still is, a bummer for some of us. 

I think they could have done a lot more Condition wise on Necro, leaning into Torment, Confusion and Poison especially - making up some for scrapping GW1's Curses and Hex's. But oh well. At least it's not just Bleeds anymore. 

 

E:

Spiteful Spirit having been such an iconic Necromancer GW1 skill that it likely even got a reference in GW2's Spiteful Spirit, although bearing no similar effects to the Original, such as Confusion, either.

Edited by Asum.4960
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1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

cScourge is around 46% Torment, 22.5% Bleeding, 16% Burning, 7% Poison and 8.5% Strike Damage.

cHarbinger is around 50.5% Torment, 17% Bleeding, 11% Burning, 8% Poison, 1% Confusion and 12.5% Strike Damage.

I was more talking about skills and traits of those specific eSpecs and not Golem benchmarks. Fair point regardless.

I never played GW1. And while I can understand the nostalgia, classes in GW2 are just different. Same applies to Mesmer.  My point remains that Necromancer has an overall good access to diverse conditions.

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6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

So dodging remove endurance? Actually many things interact with endurance, you can increase it's generation (vigor, traits, skills, food), reduce it's generation (weakness), completely stop it's generation (exhaustion) or even gain a set amount (skills and traits). There is no reason for not being able to use it for something else or damaging the endurance bar. And that's especially true since it's possible to use health as a cost for skills.

Ok, sorry for not be completely precise, I kinda assumed you read what i quote from you :

There isn't a single thing in the game that can remove endurance from an hostile target

My point still stand that being able to expend for skills your only active defense is a bad idea (dodge, basically)

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

My stance is more historical than logical. Necromancer didn't use to have much chill before HoT but it did have a lot of cripple. As for Hard CC fear has always been dominant and Harbinger not having fear on both it's weapon and shroud is something that feel out of place

Well, judging at the skills, not really, necro got plenty of chill back then, too, and a "correct" amount of cripple.

If you want some history, the reason why there were more cripple than chill is simple : chill is much stronger than cripple so Anet was more conservative on giving chill. That's the reason why we got that awful 1,5sec on greatsword auto 3, because "faster would be OP because it got chill"

 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Spiteful Spirit having been such an iconic Necromancer GW1 skill that it likely even got a reference in GW2's Spiteful Spirit, although bearing no similar effects to the Original, such as Confusion, either.

To be fair here, Spiteful Spirit used to apply Retaliation and not Resolution to you.  Then the Retaliation boon got replaced entirely game-wisde and nothing else on the skill changed to accommodate that..

Edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180
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Posted (edited)

What's weirder is we literally just got Swords which was a Life Stealing/Self Healing weapon set, so why another Power weapon with more Siphoning?

I would like it better if it was a Chill heavy weapon to work with Deathly Chill, at least make it a good competitor with GS on Condi Reaper. I also wish for a weapon that can closely stick to the enemy like death and GS isn't it. Swords definitely isn't it either, I actually hate that Swords have the unga bunga leaps but they're just realistically largely redundant on a weapon set which likes and enjoys its ranged damage application.

The Endurance thing is such a volatile thing to do to deny enemies Endurance bar when Weakness essentially does that. Stacking Weakness and sucking Endurance would be VERY oppressive against literally every class in the game in competitive. 

Also a note: While Bleed is Condi Reaper's biggest Condition, Torment is also very present in Condi Reaper build via Pistol and Scepter. So yea, the Torment thing tracks. 

Edited by Yasai.3549
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