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Can we just get rid of the Condi Tank meta?


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Whats the deal here?
I was expecting that this patch(we get a patch every 4 months or so) will get rid of the unkillable condi tanks like Druid ,Tempest and Habringer but it seems that they are more popular than ever.
Literally a handfull of changes that mostly benefit the condi tank meta

Condi Druid - even in a 2vs1 vs druid on the side node we need like 30-40 secs to defeat him god forbid someone rotates and stalls us.
This Condi Tank Druid even has like 2% edge against spellbreaker in a 1vs1 and over time you just chip his health.

Harbringer with Staff Pistol and Torch god forbid I need to try to engage him on a side node as a melee. He can just dump the staff skills on the ground and chill perfectly safe from all harm. If I need to engage him as daredevil a Single Shadowstep in that sea of **** that will take up to 50%-60% of my health best case scenario I take 10% of his 30k hp. Now add the healing, 2 jail free cards and literally -50% dmg reduction free 30-40% increase to toughness on a quick button click thats nice. Even the blinght mechanic despite that it lowers your hp it also benefits you with dmg increase Also you just do not die to condies on this build because of the mechanics

Fighting a Tempest as a power based build I see the following messages on the screen Block Block Block Barrier Block Barrier we do not include the 40% protection, perma regen and access to around 19k heal ofc the dmg is condi based aoe spells that yeet my hp if I dare to stay near him

This is because for maxing out condi dmg you need just a single stat Condi Dmg and the rest of the amulet stats can go to defense like toughness, healing power, vitality. I think this should be split the same way like the Power Dmg where you need Power, Crit and Ferocity
Maybe we should have Condi Dmg - how hard condi ticks, Condi Speed - how frequently they apply the dmg and Condi Duration. This should be fair especially that the most condi skills in this game are all AOE meanwhile most power skills are single target and have 130 range (unless you are Willbender or Vindicator)

In my games 4/5 people are playing Iron Cannon Build and 3/4 of them are condi based 😅 so basically 3 condi tank builds, Axe Thief and just a regular tank SB or DH
ALSO WTF is wrong with you for not nerfing Axe thief jesus christ should we wait for another 4-8 months for you to do so. Just tell us when you are getting rid of this **** because I'm already terminally ill by just completing dailies and weeklies and I have not even started this ranked season

There is literally no reason to try to get to plat because the game quality degrades even further you just see the same 10-20 players over and over and over again who play just
Harbringer, Tempest, Druid, DH, SB and Axe thief Yeeeeeeeeey
-99% on the playerbase for sPVP since 2019 🤡 but its all smiles and brave balance theories on the streams for the balance preview with some additional fake positivity from the guild wars 2 content creators who are all casual PVE enjoyers.
Bottom line the dev team spends their time on theory crafting and they just dont play pvp. They probably do not look at sPVP stats either because 100% they dont have the tools.
Basically the balance of the game is based on what are the favourite professions of the dev team Ranger, Necro and Guardian 

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Hmm even though I agree stuff like condi bunker druid is absurd still and needs nerfs. None of these are common in plat. Only maybe axe thief made some gold players hang in plat 1 cause the build carries bad players. But that's about it, bunker condi druid is rarely seen in plat, same for harb. Tempest is just bad, just send the creaper on your team to free kill it in 5 sec.

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53 minutes ago, youle.5824 said:

Hmm even though I agree stuff like condi bunker druid is absurd still and needs nerfs. None of these are common in plat. Only maybe axe thief made some gold players hang in plat 1 cause the build carries bad players. But that's about it, bunker condi druid is rarely seen in plat, same for harb. Tempest is just bad, just send the creaper on your team to free kill it in 5 sec.

People will ignore this and say all are condi

 

The only build that I see, which is rly tanky is dezdez Bunker reaper, since the last patch it seems to not die in straight 1vs1 (at least on spb) , but it's also a power build so... 

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1 hour ago, Skary.8956 said:

This is because for maxing out condi dmg you need just a single stat Condi Dmg and the rest of the amulet stats can go to defense like toughness, healing power, vitality. I think this should be split the same way like the Power Dmg where you need Power, Crit and Ferocity

Would be nice if we could customize our own amulet. Unfortunately, no can do.

Also, condition damage are already split into 2 stats: expertise and condition damage. It isn't a novel idea either to ask the devs to tie condition application more tightly to precision. Unfortunately, the devs seem to be deaf to the concept of increasing the need for precision in order to apply conditions and expertise have been thoroughly removed from sPvP amulets.

In short, what you dream of already exist in game, the only thing lacking is the will of the balance team to make the very many tweaks necessary.

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53 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Would be nice if we could customize our own amulet. Unfortunately, no can do.

Also, condition damage are already split into 2 stats: expertise and condition damage. It isn't a novel idea either to ask the devs to tie condition application more tightly to precision. Unfortunately, the devs seem to be deaf to the concept of increasing the need for precision in order to apply conditions and expertise have been thoroughly removed from sPvP amulets.

In short, what you dream of already exist in game, the only thing lacking is the will of the balance team to make the very many tweaks necessary.

I never knew that expertise existed and that it was doing something.
From my testing with and without expertise the difference is really minimal because you often get expertise from signed or a trait line but in the end the difference is very slight

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

untamed is rediculous too how much damage they can put out while having massive sustain facetanking even bursts that should have killed certain people 3 times

Yeah free 11k barrier hp and dmg reduction. Mass Project denial and block on sword 5

Edited by Skary.8956
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The condi bunker builds are a direct reaction to the sustain/mobility power creep. Quite a few power builds are so crept now, that they are as forgiving as older condi builds that were considered "noob" to play.

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28 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The condi bunker builds are a direct reaction to the sustain/mobility power creep. Quite a few power builds are so crept now, that they are as forgiving as older condi builds that were considered "noob" to play.

Even with all this movement and power creep you cannot get a favourable trade vs Condi Tempest, Druid or Harbringer as a Pure Power Build unless you just spam Willbender, Vindi for the rest of us mortals that play Power Mirage or Daredevil S/D I just never get to deal dmg to the Tempest 😄 meanwhile few skills and overload fire just 100-0 me with a cool 13k burn dmg.

If you decide to tank up on Daredevil or Power Mirage your dmg just jumps of a cliff and is not enough to do anything on a regular Condi Tank

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There is no "rarely seen in plat" btw because there's barely even 250 plat ranked players on average at any given time in both NA and EU. People seem to realize that when they say how often they get matched to gold players but then conveniently forget it when they want to say they play higher level matches, whatever that means. No you're absolutely not matching to the notorious asian reference account #23876 every single match you queue - which means the builds mentioned by OP are all prevalent in every "level".

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41 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

What Druid's are you running into? 😂.

It 'rarely seen in plat' but 'needs nerfs'...riiiight

you clearly aren't aware that condi bunker druid is still one of the favored sidenoder for mat and that the reason you don't see it in plat rank is because rank games are not carried by playing bunker. Nonetheless, bunker druid is still broken and unkillable for pretty close to all specs even if they play like a bot.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Skary.8956 said:

 

Even with all this movement and power creep you cannot get a favourable trade vs Condi Tempest, Druid or Harbringer as a Pure Power Build unless you just spam Willbender, Vindi for the rest of us mortals that play Power Mirage or Daredevil S/D I just never get to deal dmg to the Tempest 😄 meanwhile few skills and overload fire just 100-0 me with a cool 13k burn dmg.

If you decide to tank up on Daredevil or Power Mirage your dmg just jumps of a cliff and is not enough to do anything on a regular Condi Tank

Tbh I will have to take your word on it, I must have hit lucky with my build, it wins condi tempests unless they are exceptionally good. It was even easier before they all started spamming arcane shield, but thats the general theme of the game now, block-immune spam, what choice do they have.

Edited by Flowki.7194
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

What Druid's are you running into? 😂.

It 'rarely seen in plat' but 'needs nerfs'...riiiight

I dunno how people can say plat with a straight face, when this game is clearly the top 100 duo Q dodgers vs solo golds, for the most part.

Edited by Flowki.7194
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Tbh I will have to take your word on it, I must have hit lucky with my build, it wins condi tempests unless they are exceptionally good. It was even easier before they all started spamming arcane shield, but thats the general theme of the game now, block-immune spam, what choice do they have.

On Dagger Pistol/ Sword Dagger I can kite long enough until I get the upper hand but this requires around 20secs of softening him up 😄
With Power Mirage I beat up most of the power builds but I cannot seem for the life of me survive long enough to start dealing dmg to Tempest
 

Edited by Skary.8956
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7 hours ago, Skary.8956 said:


Whats the deal here?
I was expecting that this patch(we get a patch every 4 months or so) will get rid of the unkillable condi tanks like Druid ,Tempest and Habringer but it seems that they are more popular than ever.
Literally a handfull of changes that mostly benefit the condi tank meta

Condi Druid - even in a 2vs1 vs druid on the side node we need like 30-40 secs to defeat him god forbid someone rotates and stalls us.
This Condi Tank Druid even has like 2% edge against spellbreaker in a 1vs1 and over time you just chip his health.

Harbringer with Staff Pistol and Torch god forbid I need to try to engage him on a side node as a melee. He can just dump the staff skills on the ground and chill perfectly safe from all harm. If I need to engage him as daredevil a Single Shadowstep in that sea of **** that will take up to 50%-60% of my health best case scenario I take 10% of his 30k hp. Now add the healing, 2 jail free cards and literally -50% dmg reduction free 30-40% increase to toughness on a quick button click thats nice. Even the blinght mechanic despite that it lowers your hp it also benefits you with dmg increase Also you just do not die to condies on this build because of the mechanics

Fighting a Tempest as a power based build I see the following messages on the screen Block Block Block Barrier Block Barrier we do not include the 40% protection, perma regen and access to around 19k heal ofc the dmg is condi based aoe spells that yeet my hp if I dare to stay near him

This is because for maxing out condi dmg you need just a single stat Condi Dmg and the rest of the amulet stats can go to defense like toughness, healing power, vitality. I think this should be split the same way like the Power Dmg where you need Power, Crit and Ferocity
Maybe we should have Condi Dmg - how hard condi ticks, Condi Speed - how frequently they apply the dmg and Condi Duration. This should be fair especially that the most condi skills in this game are all AOE meanwhile most power skills are single target and have 130 range (unless you are Willbender or Vindicator)

In my games 4/5 people are playing Iron Cannon Build and 3/4 of them are condi based 😅 so basically 3 condi tank builds, Axe Thief and just a regular tank SB or DH
ALSO WTF is wrong with you for not nerfing Axe thief jesus christ should we wait for another 4-8 months for you to do so. Just tell us when you are getting rid of this **** because I'm already terminally ill by just completing dailies and weeklies and I have not even started this ranked season

There is literally no reason to try to get to plat because the game quality degrades even further you just see the same 10-20 players over and over and over again who play just
Harbringer, Tempest, Druid, DH, SB and Axe thief Yeeeeeeeeey
-99% on the playerbase for sPVP since 2019 🤡 but its all smiles and brave balance theories on the streams for the balance preview with some additional fake positivity from the guild wars 2 content creators who are all casual PVE enjoyers.
Bottom line the dev team spends their time on theory crafting and they just dont play pvp. They probably do not look at sPVP stats either because 100% they dont have the tools.
Basically the balance of the game is based on what are the favourite professions of the dev team Ranger, Necro and Guardian 

Engi sort of doesn't get the benefit of the single stat condi effect.  When it tries to go condi, its firearm tramline is tied to making crits.   So in that way it forces you to also want precision or you take a hit.   Maybe other classes should have more of their condi functionality being tied to precision?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

Engi sort of doesn't get the benefit of the single stat condi effect.  When it tries to go condi, its firearm tramline is tied to making crits.   So in that way it forces you to also want precision or you take a hit.   Maybe other classes should have more of their condi functionality being tied to precision?

Engi stand on the same ground than many other professions when it come to conditions and critical hit.

  • Engi have a low probability to apply bleed and burn on crit.
  • Necromancer have a low probability to apply bleed, weakness and chill on crit.
  • Warrior have a low probability to apply bleed and wulnerability.
  • Elementalist have a low probability to apply burn, bleed wulnerability or weakness on a critical hit.
  • Ranger have a low probability to apply bleed on a critical hit.

nothing extraordinary.

Edit: despite that, the one that can deal the most condition damage through critical hits is... Mesmer. The one that can apply the most conditions through a critical hit is... Reaper (because a single critical can apply bleed, weakness and chill, but applying a chill can also apply vulnerability and bleed).

Edited by Dadnir.5038
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2 hours ago, youle.5824 said:

you clearly aren't aware that condi bunker druid is still one of the favored sidenoder for mat and that the reason you don't see it in plat rank is because rank games are not carried by playing bunker. Nonetheless, bunker druid is still broken and unkillable for pretty close to all specs even if they play like a bot.

This is cap.

Need a name of a bunker druid that's "plat" right now--just fought Eura in random plat level game and was on Untamed.  I haven't seen above a gold 1 level Druid, and I've played in games with you (and your alts) a lot.  

I mean I'm constantly fighting Naru on a Vindi, CJ or whoever on Harb/Reaper/etc., you on ele, but I see no Ranger in NA aside from Eura and sometimes Trev.  If it's purely just in AT comps, then if you can point me to one of those that'd be great, because the last few maT I've seen have either no ranger, or 'oonga boonga' Untamed.  

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I dunno how people can say plat with a straight face, when this game is clearly the top 100 duo Q dodgers vs solo golds, for the most part.

That I can agree on, and ITT I strongly feel one of these Top 100s is being cap rn.  

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@Gotejjeken.1267 I haven't used ele in rank in quite a while, don't know who you faced but wasnt me then. I mostly play vindi, untamed or creaper if I try hard. And there is a very important distinction you seem to be missing, some specs are strong without being good in rank or vice versa. For rank the higher you climb the more it becomes only about farming kills as fast as possible. where as in proper comp play druid still shines as one of the best side noders. But it's not present in plat games much cause bunkering down doesn't carry much.

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2 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

Engi sort of doesn't get the benefit of the single stat condi effect.  When it tries to go condi, its firearm tramline is tied to making crits.   So in that way it forces you to also want precision or you take a hit.   Maybe other classes should have more of their condi functionality being tied to precision?

Just look how they yeeted our boy post holo nerf, All weapons outside of Hammer are just not viable on power. For condi just a main hand pistol. Rifle literally tickles people and Rifle 5 is a skill that I would argue is more harmful to you then to the enemy. Mace is a joke, Shortbow I cannot seem to make it to work. Offhand Pistol is 🤡. Sword is also meh. Just compare the eng weapon skills to the weapon skills of ranger. So instead of fixing this they decide to buff elexirs 😂😂😂

Ele has access to 20 weapon skills and 90% of them are decent


Lets look at some of the classics that take up utility slots

Toolkit - just a shield Magnet post nerf is useless.

Mortar and Granades are decent but you choose one or the other

Flamethrower - it says it in the name thrower

Elexir kit - lets not talk about it

Bomb Kit - has potential but is useless against most specs

Eng is just a mess of a profession no wonder its the least played out of all. As a quick fix I would allow eng to weapon swap

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1 hour ago, youle.5824 said:

@Gotejjeken.1267 I haven't used ele in rank in quite a while, don't know who you faced but wasnt me then. I mostly play vindi, untamed or creaper if I try hard. And there is a very important distinction you seem to be missing, some specs are strong without being good in rank or vice versa. For rank the higher you climb the more it becomes only about farming kills as fast as possible. where as in proper comp play druid still shines as one of the best side noders. But it's not present in plat games much cause bunkering down doesn't carry much.

idk, whatever you play on YouleHighOnMeme--last time I think it was thief in unrank, but I know I've played both with and against you before lol.

Anyway, look here at June mAT, no Druid in either semi or grand final, but has Untamed:

I see basically zero people outside me and some lower golds playing Druid....I really can't tell you how it's OP with one source of stab and one good source of stealth.   

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On 7/9/2024 at 2:02 PM, Skary.8956 said:

Fighting a Tempest as a power based build I see the following messages on the screen Block Block Block Barrier Block Barrier

coould you please do me a favor and list the blocks that Tempest has?

 

Edited by Sahne.6950
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