More diverse armor options.

[Geikamir.6329]

With the new forum up and running, I would like to start discussion about how few options of armor pieces that don't fit the predefined mould. In particular: trenchcoats, robes, and butt skirts.

Have we ever received an official response about this topic or has it always been a giant, unanswered elephant in the room?

[ardasica.4531]

We should probably also stipulate that we are talking about armor skin designs that can be crafted or gotten in game without having to buy some skin from the gem store.

I haven't seen anything in response but I would applaud the loss of butt skirts as long as they were replaced by something less obnoxious.

[Ashantara.8731]

I feel like the more people complain about this issue, the more of those designs we get in return. It has been discussed excessively, but I do feel like it is a plea falling on deaf ears. Better let it rest.

[Caephire.5238]

@ardasica.4531 said:We should probably also stipulate that we are talking about armor skin designs that can be crafted or gotten in game without having to buy some skin from the gem store.

I haven't seen anything in response but I would applaud the loss of butt skirts as long as they were replaced by something less obnoxious.

Truth be told I also had no issues buying armor skins from the gem store. I think the Outfits are very limited when it comes to customizing it to your own taste. I'd prefer to mix and match. I very much approve of your idea of crafting skins that are unique though.

[ardasica.4531]

@Caephire.5238 said:

Truth be told I also had no issues buying armor skins from the gem store. I think the Outfits are very limited when it comes to customizing it to your own taste. I'd prefer to mix and match. I very much approve of your idea of crafting skins that are unique though.

I try to think of those that don't use the gem store that much or can't use it. Personally I think ANet lost out on a great opportunity to let us tailor town clothes. Giving us more unique options for crafting would be taking it to the next level and would be something I would love to see.

[Geikamir.6329]

@Ashantara.8731 said:I feel like the more people complain about this issue, the more of those designs we get in return. It has been discussed excessively, but I do feel like it is a plea falling on deaf ears. Better let it rest.

Ignoring a request because more players ask for it seems a bit counter-intuitive.

[Havok.6073]

It would be nice to have a Dev to talk to. We don't bite, i promise. I have seen this kind of thread pop up all the time for five years and still, all we get is silence. What is it about us that scares the devs so much? We would just like to know why things can't be changed. Just tell us once and for all, but let it be the truth. Don't give us the spin about armor weights and themes for each class because you made that point null and void with the first outfit you released. Can we please, pretty pretty please, have someone to talk to? After five years of loyal presence?Thanks!

[Chadramar.8156]

I too would like more diverse armor. Proper pants for light armor, especially for women, and please no more trenchcoats. And more cultural armor. I'd also much prefer new armor skins instead of all these outfits, because mixing and matching, or just being able to turn gloves or shoulders off, matters a lot.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Ashantara.8731 said:I feel like the more people complain about this issue, the more of those designs we get in return. It has been discussed excessively, but I do feel like it is a plea falling on deaf ears. Better let it rest.

Legendary armor was the magnum opus of this sentiment.... a "retractable" trench coat.

On a more serious note- This would universally be less of a problem if the game had better physics and joint arrangements for all of the loosely fit clothing elements. The way they're rigged up, despite being a practical necessity of the engine, is almost embarrassing given when this game was released, and its heavier focus on an art aesthetic. They've been long overdue for research on a secondary skeleton for armor elements..... and is becoming increasingly more critical with their shift toward more and more outlandish designs. This could potentially solve sooo many problems in their existing art line up (especially among outfits), if they invested the time into a new pipeline standard that allowed "loose" cloth/drapes to move independently, along with minor collision behavior with the legs.

Theres already 1 major proof of concept success with the Female Noble Count Outfit, which has a lot more freedom of movement in the cloth; and (supposedly) isn't any more complicated then what they do with the average "goofy" trench coat models. Yet they're biggest failure was the Bell skirt on the female monk outfit, which had rigging and collision problems, while lacking the exacerbating length of a lot of the other armor/outfits. And apparently their solution to that was to flair it out more, because realigning it was too much work......

So in light of all of this, it very much feels like its borderline malicious.... we know at one least one of them was capable of devising a workable solution (on one of the oldest outfits in the line up), yet continually reinforcing this aesthetic standard on player assets that has no reason for consistency when you look at the Hero models. The Exemplar Attire is another example of "butt capes" for no clear reason, yet the variant used by Anise (which its based on) looks a lot cleaner, and frankly more practical.

[Geikamir.6329]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:I feel like ...

Excellent post. I agree completely. If the fabric flowed more freely instead of looking so wireframe it would greatly help with many of the adverse reactions to their design path. Though, have more options is still supreme, we could at least get to look more reasonable in the meantime.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

Fairly certain that anet said a long time ago (at the intro of the wardrobe and outfits) that it was easier for them to implement outfits rather than armor/skins as questable items (for the most part). Hence while we get things like the biolume armor, that is more the exception than the rule. Also why we get individual armor pieces like shoulders which can be easily mixed and matched. As for the cape/trench thing, this was also mentioned some time ago about how their meshes work. Personally I think that one is a weaker stance as they have shown the ability to make armor and outfits without the trench/cape look. Now it just seems to be more a desire thing than anything else.

[Doam.8305]

I think the locking of armor to certain designs is attributed from the Esports push as a visible trenchcoat is a visible tag as to what the class wearing it could be for the viewer. Same reason why skill animations were reduced in order to make the game easier to watch for Esport players.

As while yes I'd love more armor designs espeicially for Sylvari who got beans during HoT the Sylvari expansion I don't think Anet will ever do it because they still have aspirations of making the game an esport. I'm against the idea of esports myself but when they say predefined mold that's predefined for people watching the game.

[Geikamir.6329]

@Doam.8305 said:I think the locking of armor to certain designs is attributed from the Esports push as a visible trenchcoat is a visible tag as to what the class wearing it could be for the viewer. Same reason why skill animations were reduced in order to make the game easier to watch for Esport players.

As while yes I'd love more armor designs espeicially for Sylvari who got beans during HoT the Sylvari expansion I don't think Anet will ever do it because they still have aspirations of making the game an esport. I'm against the idea of esports myself but when they say predefined mold that's predefined for people watching the game.

This argument falls apart in a few areas.

The first, and largest, counter is outfits. Their inclusion completely negates all potential angles that discuss ease of armor-class recognition.

The second problem is that there is at least 1 option for each armor class that doesn't fit into the predescribed mould (of robes, trenchcoats, or butt skirts).

The third is that the system is already inplace to make all enemies appear in generic attire. If live competitive play is the only thing stopping this progress, then force this setting to be on.

The fourth counter is that seeing someone's armor class tells a player very, very little information about what to expect from an encounter, especially in comparison to seeing the actual profession icon beside their name, their weapon, and their booms/skill usage. Knowing a particular build is immensely more useful information than just knowing 'medium armor' for example.

There might even be more holes in that argument, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Ashantara.8731 said:I feel like the more people complain about this issue, the more of those designs we get in return. It has been discussed excessively, but I do feel like it is a plea falling on deaf ears. Better let it rest.

I've observed this in a few areas over the years. There's a bit of a "dig-in" effect that happens when you're vocally criticized for something. That's not any way to run a business, though.

[Locce.8405]

Just to add my two cents to this very necessary topic:I feel what we could need are some more "down to earth" armour skins. I often find myself in trouble trying to mix parts for different looks without resorting to the same few parts again and again in some categories. What I find escpecially regrettable are skins that look decent but have one feature that ruins it, especially when combined with parts from other armour sets, for example because of undyeable parts that stick out badly. What we have instead is an overabundance of exaggerated, garish clothing with half animal carcasses or airplane parts tacked onto hips and shoulders or other stuff that would still be incredibly impractical to wear even if somebody actually liked that look.I get that in a fantasy world there is room for some more outlandish parts, but as long as physics still apply ironing boards do not make good shoulder armour and stiff metal plates or bones over joints do tend to interfere with your movement, and I think there is quite enough armour stepping over that line where physics are not your friend anymore.

[Doam.8305]

@Geikamir.6329 said:

@Doam.8305 said:I think the locking of armor to certain designs is attributed from the Esports push as a visible trenchcoat is a visible tag as to what the class wearing it could be for the viewer. Same reason why skill animations were reduced in order to make the game easier to watch for Esport players.

As while yes I'd love more armor designs espeicially for Sylvari who got beans during HoT the Sylvari expansion I don't think Anet will ever do it because they still have aspirations of making the game an esport. I'm against the idea of esports myself but when they say predefined mold that's predefined for people watching the game.

This argument falls apart in a few areas.

The first, and largest, counter is outfits. Their inclusion completely negates all potential angles that discuss ease of armor-class recognition.

The second problem is that there is at least 1 option for each armor class that doesn't fit into the predescribed mould (of robes, trenchcoats, or butt skirts).

The third is that the system is already inplace to make all enemies appear in generic attire. If live competitive play is the only thing stopping this progress, then force this setting to be on.

The fourth counter is that seeing someone's armor class tells a player very, very little information about what to expect from an encounter, especially in comparison to seeing the actual profession icon beside their name, their weapon, and their booms/skill usage. Knowing a particular build is immensely more useful information than just knowing 'medium armor' for example.

There might even be more holes in that argument, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Well yeah but you have to remember that the push for Esports wasn't something they started to do until the game was out for some time. The game never launched like that as if that were true then their would be no need to reduce skill animations like they did. The holes exist because it was a shift in direction for the game sort of like how dungeons still rely on the whole zerk setup but raids which were a later push rely on more trinity elements. Another example would be the creation and removal of anti toxin spray as the game has gone through shifts and stages so their are many holes in all sorts of areas. Anet did many things during that time not for the players but for the people trying to watch the battles. There are remnants found throughout the game from different shifts they've decided to take.

There not going to remove armor and outfits from the game just because they want to move in a new direction but they can sure try to lock things down moving forward. We've never really got the whole class mold line until after they started the attempted shift.

[Geikamir.6329]

@Doam.8305 said:

snip

I feel like if the game was only a year or two years old tops, the argument that they haven't started transitioning yet would be able to work. But the game has been out for far too long AND the new sets that we've already seen for an unreleased expansion follow the exact same trend.

They have made an overarching design decision and refuse to change it or answer for it, even when against tremendous extended outcry from players.

[Alimar.8760]

Honestly I would just enjoy more generic armors in general. Things that have the same skin but can be built for multiple professions. Just a simple pair of pants that stands for all armor classes would work just fine. They do it currently with a lot of living world armor rewards. Personally I'd like to make my thief look more like a thief, but with how I like to play Fashion Wars 2, there's very few "just pants" options that look decent. and often times I have to make a compromise with looks because of the trench coat/butt cape thing.

@starlinvf.1358 said: This would universally be less of a problem if the game had better physics and joint arrangements for all of the loosely fit clothing elements. The way they're rigged up, despite being a practical necessity of the engine, is almost embarrassing given when this game was released, and its heavier focus on an art aesthetic. They've been long overdue for research on a secondary skeleton for armor elements.....

Honestly this would be nice, but I doubt it'll happen. Because this game is driven by sales and the gemstore, they need to prioritize what makes them money. It's a business after all. I would love for this to happen, it would allow for things like guild capes, which I've been waiting on since GW1. But unless it became someones personal project and they did it, I doubt they'd change up how they've designed armors for over 5 years now. If they were going to change it, they probably would have done it already. One of the big issues I see is if they change it now, they'd have to change all the previous armors to match. Unless they suddenly have two rigging systems for armors. Which would still complicate and increase the time it takes to make an armor.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Havok.6073 said:It would be nice to have a Dev to talk to.

Agreed.

@Havok.6073 said:We don't bite, i promise.

...much. :p

@Havok.6073 said:I have seen this kind of thread pop up all the time for five years and still, all we get is silence.

That is not exactly true. As I was trying to hint in my first response, the fact that we get more of it the more we complain, sends a pretty clear message to me, wouldn't you agree?

[Geikamir.6329]

@Ashantara.8731 said:That is not exactly true. As I was trying to hint in my first response, the fact that we get more of it the more we complain, sends a pretty clear message to me, wouldn't you agree?

You would think so, but there is eternal silence.