New WvW player feedback

[Fodder.3529]

To be fair, I'm not totally new.  I played WvW a little (around level 50) before the World Restructuring.  I really enjoyed it, but I had just started to like it when real-life pulled me away.  Janthir and a slow work season brought me back, and I thought this would be a perfect opportunity to get drawn back into WvW as well.  I just picked WvW up again a few days ago to get back into it.  I was unaware of the World Restructuring, so I have a feeling that, while long-term players will likely discount my feedback, it's possibly just what you're looking for, Anet, since I'm exactly the type of player you're trying to convert from a casual to an evangelist.  So let's get on with it. 

The only reason I'm even now aware of the World Restructuring is because I came to the forums to figure out what the heck happened to WvW.  Something clearly changed, and not for the better.  Here's my experience:

When I first tried to jump back in to WvW, I was forced to make a choice of alliance.  I had no idea what this was or how it would impact me.  I couldn't remember doing it before, but there wasn't much other information that I could make use of.  (This is my team for the next few weeks.  Okay, well, I'm not in a WvW guild so how does this affect me?)  It seemed very arbitrary, but it warned me that I'd be locked in for a set amount of time - weeks!  That seemed... odd.  There wasn't really any other useful info (to me as a new player) there, so I figured it wouldn't lock me into anything too terrible for such an extended period. 

WOW!  Was I ever wrong!  I didn't know what I was selecting from the information provided, other than it seemed to correspond to a Keep on the map.  Well, I couldn't remember having played from Hall of Judgement before, so let's try that!  The good news: there were no queues.  The bad news: everything else.  My alliance appears dead.  Before WR, I remember that if I managed to get into a map without a queue, the population was likely dead, but if I waited 20 minutes, a commander would probably show up and rally the troops while I had some fun roaming.  This time?  After several days, I've only been in a zerg with more than 10 people once or twice (and they were short lived).  Each time we were trying to compete against the dreaded monoblobs that easily tripled our tiny groups.  But now 🤦‍♂️ I'm apparently stuck with this dead alliance for up to SIX WEEKS?!?  (By the way, where did this monoblob meta come from?  It manages to be both intense and boring at the same time, but I digress.)

I tried roaming, but either I absolutely rolled some poor sap even greener than I was, or I got rolled, myself - either insta-gibbed by a monoblob moving at lightspeed, or slowly but inevitably killed by a class with seemingly infinite bubbles.  The only half-interesting fights were against thieves, but they weren't actually fun.  They'd sneak attack me, I'd smack them, at which point they'd stealth and run away, I'd heal, wash, rinse, repeat, until their teammates showed up and eventually ganked me.  Notice, I didn't mention my teammates - I'm pretty sure I don't have any in this alliance. 🙁

And... that's it.  Apart from the more consistent bouts of lag emanating from the monoblobs, that's been my experience as a new player for the last week of WvW.  Far less fun, far fewer players, far fewer pips and less rewards.  No incentive to play other than trying to get a few Gifts of Battle.  And I'm stuck this way for weeks at a time. 🤔 Which means I likely won't be playing WvW anywhere near as much as either you or I would have wanted, Anet. 

 

Normally, this is where I'd leave it alone and not provide any suggestions, but I can't help but make a few armchair observations.  Incentives are key.  Specifically, you need to incentivize commanders (in all game modes, but especially WvW).  Want to bring new people in?  Make sure commanders want them, and train them... patiently.  Have large parties automatically convert to "Warbands" when a leader pulls out the commander tag.  Ask non-guild members to anonymously rate the commander if they stayed in the group for more than a few minutes.  Give the commanders better rewards for high ratings at the end of each week - shower them, drown them in rewards.  They probably deserve it - especially the patient ones.  And back to incentives - what are you going to do to incentivize losing teams to play WvW?  As it stands, we're stuck in a rut.  Because we're behind, we're disincentivized from playing.  It's a negative feedback loop you've created.  Look, I expect the winning sides to be rewarded much more handsomely, but I wasn't expecting my overall rewards to be reduced by about 40% from what I would get on a losing team before WR, especially when I as a new player to WvW have so little control.  I'm sorry, but this just doesn't feel good.  Guild Wars 2 is a great game, and WvW is a great mode, but shake it up in better ways.  Randomly empower a tower with a harder champion but MUCH greater rewards.  Build off the supply line track - have well-supplied towers provide more substantial bonuses to the area, and allow players to run (or sabotage, or even steal) supplies directly and not just with the supply caravans.  DO NOT try overly hard to balance the game.  That imbalance is often what provides the spice, keeps things lively and fun.  But, that said, it's important to ALWAYS make sure there's a reason for the underdog to stay in the fight. 

But, meh, what do I know?  I'm just that Asuran roadbump on your way to the next tower/keep/castle.  Good luck, have fun, and happy hunting.

[Custodio.6134]

10 hours ago, Fodder.3529 said:

When I first tried to jump back in to WvW, I was forced to make a choice of alliance.  I had no idea what this was or how it would impact me. 

so, basically the same as when you first created your account and chose a server without any clue about the people on it. 
 

10 hours ago, Fodder.3529 said:

I remember that if I managed to get into a map without a queue, the population was likely dead, but if I waited 20 minutes, a commander would probably show up and rally the troops while I had some fun roaming.  This time? 

that´s a change that is only indirectly influenced by world restructuring, as ultimately this is still a player-behaviour. additionally, we´re ending summer, and school is picking up in most countries again (which also affects population)
 

10 hours ago, Fodder.3529 said:

But now 🤦‍♂️ I'm apparently stuck with this dead alliance for up to SIX WEEKS?!? 

correction: 4 weeks (six was only the FIRST matchup of WR, as it started mid-month)
 

10 hours ago, Fodder.3529 said:

I tried roaming, but either I absolutely rolled some poor sap even greener than I was, or I got rolled, myself - either insta-gibbed by a monoblob moving at lightspeed, or slowly but inevitably killed by a class with seemingly infinite bubbles.  The only half-interesting fights were against thieves, but they weren't actually fun.  They'd sneak attack me, I'd smack them, at which point they'd stealth and run away, I'd heal, wash, rinse, repeat, until their teammates showed up and eventually ganked me.

welcome to roaming, it´s always been like that, and it probably won´t ever change either

You´re perfectly describing how WvW has always been, with depending on what time-period you´re looking at, some of those points being more present at certain times. but EVERYTHING you mentioned, no exception, has always been present in WvW in some shape or form, to a higher or lesser extent over time

[Luthan.5236]

On 9/8/2024 at 11:37 AM, Fodder.3529 said:

Normally, this is where I'd leave it alone and not provide any suggestions, but I can't help but make a few armchair observations.  Incentives are key.  Specifically, you need to incentivize commanders (in all game modes, but especially WvW).  Want to bring new people in?  Make sure commanders want them, and train them... patiently.

I disagree. If there was too much incentives for commanders (don't they already get extra pips for running public squads?) everyone would want to be a commander - not doing other normal stuff as a "normal" player working together with 1 (or maybe 2-3 at max) commanders in one map.

Problem is that the game mode attracts people that play it for different reasons. The Gift of Battle is the obvious thing. (And nobody wants it removed cause they all fear the game mode might be dead otherwise. If the majority of people really is of that type ... changes to the mode won't really help a lot.)

Then you have those kind of players trying to just fight ... guilds or zergs fighting each other. Not caring about objectives much. Some that care about objectives (prefer points per tick than getting points from kills) ....

and the world restructuring surely will have lost some of the players that liked to fight for "their" world. (When the "winning" / "losing" already is a problem since you only participate a small amount of time usually - unless you are a hardcore WvW-only player grinding the game mode a lot. Does not feel like "your" win.) ... so it makes sense that the mode will end up with a majority of players prefering to play it for the rewards. (With GoB the one main thing a lot PvE-only players care about.)

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 9/8/2024 at 4:20 PM, Custodio.6134 said:

You´re perfectly describing how WvW has always been, with depending on what time-period you´re looking at, some of those points being more present at certain times. but EVERYTHING you mentioned, no exception, has always been present in WvW in some shape or form, to a higher or lesser extent over time

idk about all that.

Under servers you chose one blindly at first, yes, but then could transfer off it.  There's no way to transfer between alliance teams now as they are not objectively grouped like a server--they are all subjective groupings via guild. 

Outside of spamming chat like a pick me girl there is very little to see what guilds are even around to join.  Also, AFAIK there's also no way to see what guilds make up a team, so transferring wouldn't do anything anyway as there's no culture or anything like servers had, just 4-week hookups.  Regardless, even if you DO have a guild, you can still randomly be transferred by the grace of the Ghost of Glicko Past to a team that is utterly dead.

For roaming, it is FAR different than years past.  Claim buffs, defense nerfs / wall repair nerfs (for scouts), cele tryhards, boon spammers, reducing of target caps and reducing of capture circles (making 1vX WAY harder), mobility through roof on all classes, stealth abuse out the wazoo, and the abundance of port hacks going around.  Roaming scene is dead on practically all levels outside ganks.

[Custodio.6134]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

There's no way to transfer between alliance teams now as they are not objectively grouped like a server--they are all subjective groupings via guild. 

You can. Just not at any time. Select a different guild, that's your transfer upon next team creation

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

so transferring wouldn't do anything anyway as there's no culture or anything like servers had,

There is, technically. It's just enclosed in an alliance guild and not fully open on a server.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

For roaming, it is FAR different than years past.  Claim buffs, defense nerfs / wall repair nerfs (for scouts), cele tryhards, boon spammers, reducing of target caps and reducing of capture circles (making 1vX WAY harder), mobility through roof on all classes, stealth abuse out the wazoo, and the abundance of port hacks going around.  Roaming scene is dead on practically all levels outside ganks

That's completely unrelated to WR, as it is a game balance issue. Not saying it's not a problem (it certainly is) but the source lies somewhere else entirely 

[Fodder.3529]

On 9/8/2024 at 4:20 PM, Custodio.6134 said:

so, basically the same as when you first created your account and chose a server without any clue about the people on it. 

Correct, and there is nothing in the game for a new player that will help them with their decision, but once that decision is made, we're locked in for six weeks a month.  (Frankly that doesn't make me feel any better than 6 weeks.)  Yes, I blindly jumped in before, and maybe it was pure luck that I fared so well, but after several restarts (5 or 6 btx PoF and EoD), I always had fun.  I might have an off night here or there, but generally I was able to find some fun 90% of the time.  If there wasn't a zerg available immediately, I could go roam and pick up a few teammates relatively easily until a public commander arrived.  Now, the roaming scene feels dead, and the zergs - at least those open to new players trying to learn - are few, short-lived, and far-between.

 

On 9/8/2024 at 4:20 PM, Custodio.6134 said:

that´s a change that is only indirectly influenced by world restructuring, as ultimately this is still a player-behaviour. additionally, we´re ending summer, and school is picking up in most countries again (which also affects population)

People choosing not to play is certainly player behaviour.  Blaming that on school picking back up is one way to go, but with Janthir releasing, the rest of the game seems to be enjoying a significant resurgence - even PvP.  The general consensus I've seen everywhere is that WvW is in a particularly low spot thanks to WR.  And, while you're right that this all doesn't fall at the feet of WR, it's the biggest pain-point I notice as a returning player relatively new to WvW.  As you stated, most of the other issues are a part of the typical rollercoaster balance changes, which is perhaps why WR sticks out.

Coincidentally, from your posts, I can't tell if you're up on WR, down or WvW in general, or just Nike in disguise.  

 

12 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Problem is that the game mode attracts people that play it for different reasons. The Gift of Battle is the obvious thing. (And nobody wants it removed cause they all fear the game mode might be dead otherwise. If the majority of people really is of that type ... changes to the mode won't really help a lot.)

This is VERY true.  The GoB is literally my only incentive for continuing to play WvW, and I'm still on the fence about whether or not it's enough.  I'm leaning toward not.   Before this, WvW was actually the thing keeping me around.  I genuinely had fun with it in ages past for what little I could play.  While I can't put it on WR or balance changes specifically, all I can tell is that my alliance is dead, meaning no zerging, no roaming, no teammates at all so far, and that translates to no fun for four weeks.  That feels horrible in a way I haven't experienced in this game.  Custodio can claim nothing I pointed out has really affected any changes to WvW, but that doesn't seem to be the general consensus that I'm reading online or hearing from friends and guildies.

Btw, commanders can get extra pips, but they need at least 5 people in their group to get the first, and they need to be a public commander with 10+ for up to 3 more pips.  I take your point about over-rewarding commanders, but I think that's subjective, especially for someone asked to herd 40 cats.  To your point, Napolean said, "better one bad general than two good ones."  But at the end of the day, better two bad generals than none at all, which seems to be the current situation.  I think my bigger point is that WvW feels really bad for new players in a way that it didn't (at least for me).  And if that's the general consensus, that can't bode well for the long-term health of the mode.  I'm spit-balling, and I'm certainly open to ideas.

[One more for the road.8950]

You just can't transfer at will at any point, there's scheduled "transfer" every four weeks instead, and you transfer to a guild or alliance guild instead of server. And if you don't want to join a guild or they don't want you, that's not the systems fault. And the reason we are here with this system in the first place is because people weren't able to use the old system without stacking to the point it was ruining the game mode. 

You can even tell what guilds are going to be on a team before the reshuffle happens now.
Anet gives the API when the cutoff is done.
So you can see which guilds are where and which ones makes up a team.

[willow.8209]

you read it right, OP.  Take it from that other Asuran roadbump bag on the way to the next objective or field fight. Outside of the forums I haven't met anyone who thinks the new way has better balance. And yea things have shifted so there's more ganking. 

However there is a way to find a guild/alliance. Not everyone is there of course, but here are two places to look (there are surely other places but these are some I'm familiar with):

Looking For Guild - Guild Wars 2 Forums  you don't have to post if you don't want, just browse the guilds and send a DM to a recruiter if you find something you like the sound of--you have 5, no 6- well still 5 (new sixth spot is known to be bugged) guild spots so there's room for you to try some out

or join a discord:

 

Edited September 10 by willow.8209

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:44 AM, Fodder.3529 said:

Correct, and there is nothing in the game for a new player that will help them with their decision, but once that decision is made, we're locked in for six weeks a month.  (Frankly that doesn't make me feel any better than 6 weeks.)  Yes, I blindly jumped in before, and maybe it was pure luck that I fared so well, but after several restarts (5 or 6 btx PoF and EoD), I always had fun.  I might have an off night here or there, but generally I was able to find some fun 90% of the time.  If there wasn't a zerg available immediately, I could go roam and pick up a few teammates relatively easily until a public commander arrived.  Now, the roaming scene feels dead, and the zergs - at least those open to new players trying to learn - are few, short-lived, and far-between.

I didn't reply your to your first post since as you said it was feedback and that is a fair ball in my opinion. But will gives some replies to the follow up. We have threads with that issue of the 4 week periods being too short as seen in this subforum. 4 weeks is short overall. I don't think that it is too much of an ask for 4 weeks, anything lower and I don't think new players would know each other well enough to interact that well since unless they were already in your alliance/community guild or guild, they may wait for a familiar tag before grouping up. It varies player to player how well they do in different roles. Said before and will again, all players should get used to roaming, running in a havoc, warband and zerg. 

Ironically linking might have been the best system to allow players a preview of a new destination. Outside of that, I don't recall if you could guest in WvW or never tried it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World#Guesting

So we haven't really had a good in game way to see who was where so its not that different in that regards. the 3rd party sites can give some insight on who is where based on players that shared their API keys. In the end these 4 week links are a good way for players to look around, aka shop around if there is a group they want to link up.

On 9/10/2024 at 3:44 AM, Fodder.3529 said:

People choosing not to play is certainly player behaviour.  Blaming that on school picking back up is one way to go, but with Janthir releasing, the rest of the game seems to be enjoying a significant resurgence - even PvP.  The general consensus I've seen everywhere is that WvW is in a particularly low spot thanks to WR.

Queue sizes might counter that statement. First reset I missed in a decade last week since it was going to be hours before being able to get in since a few of us hit the queue bug.  So hit another game for a few hours till we could get in. So far all three sorts, while pugging, queues during prime times in various states and maps. 

On 9/10/2024 at 3:44 AM, Fodder.3529 said:

And, while you're right that this all doesn't fall at the feet of WR, it's the biggest pain-point I notice as a returning player relatively new to WvW.

But returning and new have different issues yes? Returning, implies you did not have a WvW guild, so maybe a PvX or PvE guild or did you have a WvW group in your guild? Or were you just more used to have a server with familiar faces? 

With new, you wouldn't have known servermates either.  So if we had something which we haven't in the past, what would help you pick a server to associate with. I have asking myself this same question. Most of what I could see so far would be lead to player abuse sadly. So the best tools would be the 3rd party sites and the forums LFG section.

On 9/10/2024 at 3:44 AM, Fodder.3529 said:

 I genuinely had fun with it in ages past for what little I could play.  While I can't put it on WR or balance changes specifically, all I can tell is that my alliance is dead, meaning no zerging, no roaming, no teammates at all so far, and that translates to no fun for four weeks.  That feels horrible in a way I haven't experienced in this game.  Custodio can claim nothing I pointed out has really affected any changes to WvW, but that doesn't seem to be the general consensus that I'm reading online or hearing from friends and guildies.

Are you in an alliance/community guild or did you mean server? These are not the same thing. 

On 9/10/2024 at 3:44 AM, Fodder.3529 said:

Btw, commanders can get extra pips, but they need at least 5 people in their group to get the first, and they need to be a public commander with 10+ for up to 3 more pips.  I take your point about over-rewarding commanders, but I think that's subjective, especially for someone asked to herd 40 cats.  To your point, Napolean said, "better one bad general than two good ones."  But at the end of the day, better two bad generals than none at all, which seems to be the current situation.  I think my bigger point is that WvW feels really bad for new players in a way that it didn't (at least for me).  And if that's the general consensus, that can't bode well for the long-term health of the mode.  I'm spit-balling, and I'm certainly open to ideas.

Are you playing during your regions prime time? That is something that is seen more as alliance/comm guilds grow for now is more hidden tags and less pugmanders since there are less open pugs. Mileage will vary sort to sort and as people form up and split apart.

[Wolfhound.4381]

Every server has it's low pop times. Also there are a number of tags that run hidden so you've got no way of knowing if anyone is running by looking at the maps. I'm also on Hall of Judgement and my group has difficulty moving during our play times.

As someone recommended, join the NA discord so you can find a group for your play times. Then join the guild and set it as your WvW guild so you can play with them after the next relink. Restructuring does suck for new players/returning players. It would be nice if new people picking teams had the option to change their mind within the first week and get a second choice. It would double the chances of finding somewhere that suits them.