Condi Warrior State in instanced PVE

[Kallig.7258]

Balance patch preview dropped yesterday, some cooking has been done by the devs (Hello/Farewell Transfusion). As a Condi Berserker enjoyer in PVE, I'm still sad about the lack of buff this build deserve, and since people tend to forget this build exist, writting a post could maybe to put some light on it help so I'm here.

Here is the context, in PVE, warrior is well-known for its Power build, Bladesworn for its high burst and its "weeb" componant, Spellbreaker Defense build being  solid while the Tactics build got some love with the new sper addition, and of finally the famous Power Berserker build with the "beloved" Arc Divider, its Power Quickness variant with high bench and of course the good old "Bannerslave" build that has been dominant for years in meta. But here is something people tend to forget : when Berserker got introduced with HoT, it brought Torch as a condition offhand weapon, it was one of the main flavor of the elite spec. 

What about nowadays? In PVE, Condition Spellbreaker isn't a thing, same for Condition Bladesworn, only Condi Berserker is "good" in PVE. Among all class in GW2, Warrior is the only one who has ONLY ONE elite specialization using a Condition build, so we could expect this build is at least good. Now let's take a look at benchmarks on Snowcrow to get a glimpse. Among the 39 dps build that Snowcrow list on its benchmark page, Condition Berserker is rank 30 with a maximum benchmark at 42267 dps and an average at 41000 dps(https://dps.report/G0BM-20240715-201335_golem). If we ignore the Power build it beats, Condition Berserker benchmark is higher than Condition Scourge (a class that has 900 range with great utility in his base build and his optionnal utility skills at low dps cost) and Condition Soulbeast. The former one is really similar to Condi Berserker, a class that has some ranged component but wants to be melee to deal most of its damage, swapping an utility skill has a medium/high cost and the build has been bullied by powercreep over the time. Speaking of powercreep, a lot of the condition builds Janthir Wild introduced with spear are similar to Condi Berserker considering they want to be at melee range to deal their damage (like Condi Spear Engineer builds) /to reach their maximum potential (like Condi Spear Revenant builds) but simply have better numbers. Of course, we can't forget Condition Virtuoso that "rule the meta" in PVE. In the end, our damage is not enough to compete with the powercreep, but benchmark isn't the only thing that matters, the feeling when playing the build is also really important, so it wouldn't be a problem if Condition Berserker felt good to play...but here is another issue.

Condition Berserker profile is easy to understand, it's a build "permazerk" (aka being in berserker mode during the whole fight) with slow damage rampup that is mostly played within melee range. The build has really correct cleave and it has the sturdiness of Warrior while having the great healing skill from berserker. The gameplay is focused on dealing critical damage to get  Furious Stacks (aka bonus Condition Damage stats, in Arms traitline), applying bleeding, burning, having "fast rotation" thanks to Fast Hand trait (making us weaponswap more often than the other build, in Discipline traitline), while using fire field+leap interaction to get a fire aura and then detonating it by using specific skills to deal more damage (from King of Fires, in Berserker traitline).

Slow damage rampup isn't a big issue, yes the warrior one is one of the slowest but considering Condi Renegade Spear benchmark and its rampup, we can deal with it. Now let's talk about the "melee range" thing. Condition Berserker build uses sword+sword (or sword+torch) and longbow, the sword weaponset wants to be in melee range to hit, while the longbow set wants to be in melee range to get the maximum damage from Fan of Fire (longbow 2). Outside of Shattering Blow, the utility skills we're using also have at least 1 component that want us to be in melee range. So we could think being in range is just a small dps loss like other "melee" condition class, IT IS NOT. Condition Berserker build rely on permazerk, for this our build rely on using every rage skill we have almost everytime they are avalable in melee range, if you don't, your berserker mode duration with decrease, and when it reachs 0, your kicked of your damage mode and during 6.5s you'll wait to re-enter in your berserker mode while dealing kitten damage. In November 2023, the trait Smash Brawler got a QoL buff, allowing the Power Berserker build to overcap their berserker duration by using their F1 skill while removing the needing rage skill. Condition Berserker didn't get this QoL, and can't really use Smash Brawler since it compete with our condi trait Last Blaze (aka using a rage skill inflicts burning around). It could easily be fixed by making the Smash Brawler QoL baseline or making Last Blaze giving us an additionnal 1-2s berserker extension duration when using a rage skill (and since you use them anyway for the condi application, it would work well with Condi Berserker gameplay and overcapping would allow us to not be hard punished when dealing with a mechanic, and we could even replace one of our utility skill to grant stab/aegis with banners if needed).

Now comes the second issue : crits. With our build, critical hits has an interaction with 3 traits : King of Fires would give us a Fire Aura (15s ICD so not that important), Bloodlust giving us 33% to inflict Bleeding on a critical hit (so we have a roll to get a crit, then another roll to get bleeding, gambling is fun) and finally Furious, granting us a buff that gives +15 Condition Damage everytime we crit, with a maximum of 25 stacks (=375 condition damage stat bonus, for comparison an ascended Viper Coat gives a total of 376 stat bonus). Furious buff duration is only 10s and it doesn't refresh when applied, so to get perma 25 stacks, you need to have multiple foes hit or really high crit chance. The current build used on Snowcrow reaches 74% crit chance (39% from stats+30% from fury+5% against bleeding foes with Deep Strikes). With this crit chance, the benchmark log shows an average 21.6 Furious stacks (https://dps.report/G0BM-20240715-201335_golem). All combined makes Condi Berserker build reliant on having good RNG to get good value, while it already struggle with other point. At this point, there is even a Condition Berserker variant (https://dps.report/dmtQ-20240811-120226_golem, in game number is 42006, video is on CostaPrimo Youtube channel) using Unsuspecting Foe instead of the CONDITION TRAIT Blademaster (note that it uses torch instead of sword offhand since Anet forgot to give the CDR on sword skills from Blademaster to the weapon baseline), allowing us to reach 96% crit chance, so we can get 25 Furious stacks with 100% uptime (after the natural rampup of the stacks of course). Note that it also make Axe Mastery better than Burst Mastery since we don't struggle with adrenaline management thanks to Furious and we get more damage thanks to the Ferocity with a 96% crit chance, the fun part is that your using multiple POWER trait instead of CONDITION trait (Blademaster/Crackshot) on a build that deal only 17.6% Power Damage. Looks like having crit to get rid of the RNG on Condition Berserker is good, maybe some balance tweeks could be done for it.

Last issue the build encounter seems to be more about balance philosophy. When SOTO came out last year, it introduced new relics (hello Relic of the Fractal) while changing the 6th bonus from runes (hello Rune of the Trapper). Most of condition builds got benefits from it, including Condition Berserker, its bench reached 46072 dps. As i mentionned above, this build has a lot of issues, so we could have expected a small nerf to make this build around 43-44k but the nerf hit hard (both F1 nerf, longbow 2 nerf, torch 5 fixed aka nerfed). This made sword offhand simply better than torch, whereas before the nerf the offhand sword could compete with torch if you were able to proc Riposte (sword 5) on the boss, and on the "fun" side sword F1 in berzerker mode deals almost the same damage than core sword F1 Tier 3, while core longbow F1 tier 3 just beat berserker longbow F1. Finally, the nerf made the condition quickness build from okayish to not worth to bench/play. Why did Anet nerfed it so much? Because of the "Hidden Broken Aurashare Threat". Basically, thanks to King of Fires trait, you can detonate any kind of Fire Auras to get more damage, meaning if an ally apply it to you, you get more damage (and you don't need to waste time using sword 2 leap to get a Fire Aura). A build like Heal Alac Tempest can be played with Fire Traitline and it'll provide good amount of Fire Aura, creating a synergy with Condition Berserker. At SOTO release, the "Auraboosted" Condition Berserker build reached 51k dps. So yeah, big number, big nerf. Because of this combo, it seems Anet fear to buff Condition Berserker to not unload a "weird, really situationnal, hard to play, but with strong damage potentiel" Auraboosted Condi Berserker again. So the non-boosted version is left with nothing. How to fix it? Quite easy, they could make King of Fire gameplay more focused on the "Uptime" of Fire Auras than on the "Use". Condition Berserker can get a high, if not perma, uptime on it with the leap finisher it has, so a class that brings Fire Auras would not be as broken as it is now. They could also make focus on the interaction between Condi Berserker and Fire Fields, as exemple "using a leap/blast finisher in a fire field make....", the code already exists on Scrapper Kinetic Accelerators, and it would give torch more synergie than offhan sword since torch 4 is a blast finisher (while still keeping the sword offhand being great with sword 5 "skillcheck"). Another possibility could also be revert the nerf from September 2023 patch, but thats lazy and it won't fix the bad feels about the build.

That's a long thread, but "going into depths" is IMO important, so with some luck devs might decide to take a look at stats/opinion about this build on forums/reddit/discords. I'm not a dev, just a player that enjoy a build and it deserves some buffs, after being ignored since 1+ year.

Tldr : Condi Berserker build deserves buff in PVE : 1) QoL on berserker duration, 2) More consistency on the crits/RNG, 3) Change about King of Fires

Other Option : revert September 2023 nerfs

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

IMHO:

Wounding precision: bleeds now also inflict 1.5s of torment. No CD.

Sundering Bursts: Now drops an explosive shell when using a burst attack. Drops a copy of rifle's explosive shell.

Bloodlust: Explosions now inflict 1 stack of bleed for 2s.

Furious: Gain 1 Adrenaline on a critical hit and inflict 1 stack of bleed for 2s on a critical hit.

Dual Wielding: removed and replaced by Packed Shells. Packed shells causes explosions to inflict 2s of burning per strike.

You'll make some powerful condi builds with those changes.

[Kallig.7258]

56 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

IMHO:

Wounding precision: bleeds now also inflict 1.5s of torment. No CD.

Sundering Bursts: Now drops an explosive shell when using a burst attack. Drops a copy of rifle's explosive shell.

Bloodlust: Explosions now inflict 1 stack of bleed for 2s.

Furious: Gain 1 Adrenaline on a critical hit and inflict 1 stack of bleed for 2s on a critical hit.

Dual Wielding: removed and replaced by Packed Shells. Packed shells causes explosions to inflict 2s of burning per strike.

You'll make some powerful condi builds with those changes.

Wounding Precision being as purely stat conversion is okay, even if it's not that interesting. Your idea would be a bit broken tbh, assuming current benchmark numbers, it would add an average +30 stacks of tourment, which would be +9k dmg for an adept trait. Maybe less or a torment application when reaching a threshold of conditions inflicted (similar to the Relic of the Fractals proc) could work.

Bloodlust is fine as it is, there are other trait that works in a similar way (Burning Precision in Fire traitline for elem), and it would kinda destroy the current playstyle of Condi Berserker by hurting the sw/x+LB setup. Same for Furious, the trait is really strong, its an easy indicator to see if you're doing well.

However i really like the idea to have explosion triggering some condi traits since it could somehow create condi variant of bladesworn and open up new synergies (like hammer/mace did with Defense traitline). Especially when looking at Dual Wielding being a useless trait in PVE and not seeing that much uses in sPVP (it's almost sad Sundering Bursts is used in PVP for that reason). Not sure Anet would decide to make drastic changes saddly, they've been quite conservative with the design of the different traits of Arms.

Edited September 14 by Kallig.7258

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Kallig.7258 said:

Wounding Precision being as purely stat conversion is okay, even if it's not that interesting. Your idea would be a bit broken tbh, assuming current benchmark numbers, it would add an average +30 stacks of tourment, which would be +9k dmg for an adept trait. Maybe less or a torment application when reaching a threshold of conditions inflicted (similar to the Relic of the Fractals proc) could work.

Bloodlust is fine as it is, there are other trait that works in a similar way (Burning Precision in Fire traitline for elem), and it would kinda destroy the current playstyle of Condi Berserker by hurting the sw/x+LB setup. Same for Furious, the trait is really strong, its an easy indicator to see if you're doing well.

However i really like the idea to have explosion triggering some condi traits since it could somehow create condi variant of bladesworn and open up new synergies (like hammer/mace did with Defense traitline). Especially when looking at Dual Wielding being a useless trait in PVE and not seeing that much uses in sPVP (it's almost sad Sundering Bursts is used in PVP for that reason). Not sure Anet would decide to make drastic changes saddly, they've been quite conservative with the design of the different traits of Arms.

The duration on that torment should be short enough to not break benchmarks, especially considering it is replacing the expertise increase the way I wrote it.

[Kallig.7258]

10 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The duration on that torment should be short enough to not break benchmarks, especially considering it is replacing the expertise increase the way I wrote it.

The numbers I gave my first answer were a bit crazy so I've decided to do maths to try. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAwyNlRwYYNsFmJWaX+NTA-DSRYfhUDzM6oqOPl4ECRKCqUBkrEQhHDCSQsHeNp4sCA-e is the gear is used with the current Condi Berserker build. If we get decide to use a trait that isn't Wounding Precision (just to simulate we lose the conversion Precision->Expertise), we lose 120 Expertise stat point. So we have to change some piece from Sinister to Viper and some Infusion from Condition Damage to Expertise to get it back (to maximize the duration of our burning/bleeding), so we end up with http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAwyNlRwYYNsFmJWcX+NTA-DSRYfBhZGdcnnScChIFBVqAyVCowjBBRk5+AxeQgvmUcWBA-e (we lose some Precision and Condition Damage) . I checked the difference between both build on https://optimizer.discretize.eu/?m=fractals (it's not really up to date but we can get a rough estimation), losing the trait means we reach 98.53% of the current benchmark, which should put it at 41645 dps.

Now, considering the benchmark of the current build (https://dps.report/RzZh-20231014-102529_golem), we have 146 "direct" bleeding applications by using skills (swords autos, sword 3, longbow 5, Shattering Blow and Sigil of Geomancy procs, i ignored the last auto chain since the torment would still tick while the golem is dead), around 74 bleeding applications through Bloodlust trait (since the dpsreport states there was 222 critical hits and Bloodlust is 33% on a critical hit), and around 18 bleeding from Sigil of Earth procs (assuming 2 procs on every longbow loop), so in the end 238 bleeding applications. With the full buffed "new" build (25 might, 20 Furious stacks since i can't manually put 21 on gw2skills, Berserker mode, and on the sword set (more Condition Damage with Blademaster), we end up with torment dealing 396.25 dps. Since we have 67% Condition Duration, the duration of the Torment you suggest goes from 1.5s to 2.5s. Finally, if we apply 238 times a torment with a 2.5s duration, we end up with 235769 total damage from the new trait which is 2456 dps (the bench duration is 96s).

So the new benchmark should be around 44101 dps. It could clearly be a "normal" benchmark with the current powercreep around. I guess it could work, but I doubt Anet would balance like this since it would make them work on a new code for the trait, for a not popular build. It would make them balance it for sPVP too (+ they would still fear Auraboosted Condition Berserker)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Kallig.7258 said:

The numbers I gave my first answer were a bit crazy so I've decided to do maths to try. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAwyNlRwYYNsFmJWaX+NTA-DSRYfhUDzM6oqOPl4ECRKCqUBkrEQhHDCSQsHeNp4sCA-e is the gear is used with the current Condi Berserker build. If we get decide to use a trait that isn't Wounding Precision (just to simulate we lose the conversion Precision->Expertise), we lose 120 Expertise stat point. So we have to change some piece from Sinister to Viper and some Infusion from Condition Damage to Expertise to get it back (to maximize the duration of our burning/bleeding), so we end up with http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAwyNlRwYYNsFmJWcX+NTA-DSRYfBhZGdcnnScChIFBVqAyVCowjBBRk5+AxeQgvmUcWBA-e (we lose some Precision and Condition Damage) . I checked the difference between both build on https://optimizer.discretize.eu/?m=fractals (it's not really up to date but we can get a rough estimation), losing the trait means we reach 98.53% of the current benchmark, which should put it at 41645 dps.

Now, considering the benchmark of the current build (https://dps.report/RzZh-20231014-102529_golem), we have 146 "direct" bleeding applications by using skills (swords autos, sword 3, longbow 5, Shattering Blow and Sigil of Geomancy procs, i ignored the last auto chain since the torment would still tick while the golem is dead), around 74 bleeding applications through Bloodlust trait (since the dpsreport states there was 222 critical hits and Bloodlust is 33% on a critical hit), and around 18 bleeding from Sigil of Earth procs (assuming 2 procs on every longbow loop), so in the end 238 bleeding applications. With the full buffed "new" build (25 might, 20 Furious stacks since i can't manually put 21 on gw2skills, Berserker mode, and on the sword set (more Condition Damage with Blademaster), we end up with torment dealing 396.25 dps. Since we have 67% Condition Duration, the duration of the Torment you suggest goes from 1.5s to 2.5s. Finally, if we apply 238 times a torment with a 2.5s duration, we end up with 235769 total damage from the new trait which is 2456 dps (the bench duration is 96s).

So the new benchmark should be around 44101 dps. It could clearly be a "normal" benchmark with the current powercreep around. I guess it could work, but I doubt Anet would balance like this since it would make them work on a new code for the trait, for a not popular build. It would make them balance it for sPVP too (+ they would still fear Auraboosted Condition Berserker)

Thank you for taking the time to do the math to prove that it would not be OP. The benefit extends over to PvP/WvW.

With the proposed explosion traits, and making Furious apply bleed on crit 100% of the time, you'd be able to do viable condi bladesworns, spellbreakers, and core condi warrior builds pretty easily with Berserker still sitting at the top.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Get rid of the fire aura bursting mechanic. 

Last blaze now does something like this:

- Burst skills grant fire aura. 

- Gaining fire aura extends berserker form. 

- Fire Aura lasts longer. 

 

King of fire:

- Fire Aura increases your condi dmg. 

- Burning last longer. 

- Burst skill trigger a fire explosion while having fire aura. (aura NOT comsumed) 3s ICD. ICD removed by weaponswap. (No Axe abuse here) 

Edited September 16 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Kallig.7258]

On 9/16/2024 at 5:30 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Get rid of the fire aura bursting mechanic. 

Last blaze now does something like this:

- Burst skills grant fire aura. 

- Gaining fire aura extends berserker form. 

- Fire Aura lasts longer. 

 

King of fire:

- Fire Aura increases your condi dmg. 

- Burning last longer. 

- Burst skill trigger a fire explosion while having fire aura. (aura NOT comsumed) 3s ICD. ICD removed by weaponswap. (No Axe abuse here) 

Reworking both traits that way makes a lot of sense since King of Fires would work the same way (passive bonus damage with the fire explosion active) while rewarding the management of Fire Auras. Small note for Last Blaze, since your version gives a longer Fire Aura duration, i would gladly change the "Burst skills grant fire aura" to the current version aka Burning from Rage skills even if it would need to be weakened for some reason, mostly because the leap from sword 2 has 5s CD (with alac+Blademaster CDR) which means you can use it twice per loop on the sword/torch (the first one when swapping to sword/torch with the remaining Fire Field from Longbow F1, and the second one right before swapping to longbow with Fire Field from torch 5) and the utility skill Sundering Leap can be used at at start of your longbow loop (with Fire Field from your first longbow F1) if you didn't previously get a fire aura from torch 5+2 (because torch 5 can be used once every 2 sword/torch loops).

The other reason is because losing the burn on the Rage skills make your utility skills weaker, and Warrior don't have a lot of utility skills usable for condition builds in PVE: having Fire Auras with a long duration on Burst skills activation makes Sundering Leap useless since you already have a lot of auras from F1 uses, increasing Berserker duration by using Outrage would be useless since you already have it with Fire Auras (since it's "harder to get" than the duration increase from Smash Brawler trait for Power build, it would be at minimum something like a 2.5s extension on Fire Auras gain, which means on a 20s loop you get 2s from berserker's healing  skill, 3s from your only good condi utility skill Shattering Blow, and you use sword F1 twice, and longbow F1 5 times thanks to the reset from bersker's healing skill which gives us 2.5*7=17.5s, so in total you get 22.5s bonus duration every 20s). And in case you think we can still use Outrage for the Head Butt+Outrage combo, using Head Butt is a dps loss on the sword/torch set  (the sword autos damage is higher because of bleeding) and on the longbow set, even if there is a little dps gain over longbow autos (only power damage because Crack Shot aka longbow trait sucks), you almost never use them (you're spending most of the time using every skill you have except longbow autos and longbow 4). In the end, without the burn on rage skills, you would use Shattering Blow, Banner of Discipline (not that bad because it would give us some utility with Fury+some might thanks to its blast finisher interacting with our Fire Fields), and then...Signet of Fury for +7% crit chance...which feels a bit lackluster.

Edited September 17 by Kallig.7258

[Geoff Fey.1035]

Slithering in with my usual refrain of:

Bloodlust: Bleed on Critical Hit (100%)

• Synergizes with all currently existing Arms traits as they are
• Duration increase (+33%) could be removed or decreased, as Warriors would have greater access to bleeds
• Creates competing trade-offs with Arms Grandmaster Burst Precision (100% crit chance) and Furious (+stacking condi damage on critical hit)
• Multi-hit weapons (OH Axe, OH Dagger, Pistol, Greatsword, Spear, Gunsaber) & Fast attack weapons (MH Axe, MH Dagger) become Condi-capable weapons by maximizing hits-per-second to trigger conditions (a la Guardian)
• Creates the most condi & hybrid build opportunities for Core & All Elite Specs and weapon choice with the minimum needed changes

On 9/15/2024 at 9:30 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Get rid of the fire aura bursting mechanic. [on King of Fires]

King of Fires: Get rid of the internal cooldown on crit causing aura

• Crit Chance becomes more valuable for condi-zerkers
• Less reliant on Leap finishers for combos
• Duration increase (+33%) could be removed or decreased, as Berserkers would have greater access to burns (especially if paired with Last Blaze)
• Creates tradeoff of utility skill selection (Rage skills) vs. utility usage (not having emergency buttons/utility) vs. DPS
• Maintains the current design with the minimum needed changes, allowing rebalancing across other traits

On 9/14/2024 at 8:58 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Bloodlust: Explosions now inflict 1 stack of bleed for 2s.

Fierce as Fire: Get rid of internal cooldown & do burning per round of ammo spent.

• Pistol becomes a Condi-burst weapon
• Gunsaber (all skills except auto-attack) becomes a Condi-capable weapon
• Armaments, Shouts, and some Physical skills become Condi-capable weapons
• Promotes Hybrid builds (rather than Condi specifically), as Dragon Slash is still Power-focused
• Makes the heat-glow of the Gunsaber actually make sense
• Works as indirect nerf to Dragon Slash, allowing ANet to refocus on Guns x Glory and/or Grandmaster Traits for Dragon Slash buffs.
• Maintains the current design of Bladesworn with new Condi opportunities with the minimum needed changes, allowing rebalancing across other traits

EDIT: I try to focus on the smallest changes possible to have the biggest impacts rather than reworking entire traitlines or mechanics. By making it small it means ANet doesn't need to invest much time in it so it's cost-savings for them, thereby making it more reasonable for them to look into it as an option rather than overhauling an existing Elite Spec to function better in-game.

Edited September 17 by Geoff Fey.1035
Reasoning for trait changes

[Guy.9207]

I just want Body Blow to actually do some substantial amount of damage. Can you imagine damage ticking down the more you CC someone? That just makes me go "mmmm, that's some good stuff right there!"

All that said, could also bake "condition on CC" into Spellbreaker as well. We have traits and stuff that could simply be merged together to make room for new condi ones, preferably ones with Torment because Warrior has been toying with this idea for a while now, but it never gets anything besides Sword 4 and...uh, I don't know what else really. At least it would synergize with Akeem and Fractals relic, I suppose.

Edited September 18 by Guy.9207

[Kallig.7258]

11 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Slithering in with my usual refrain of:

Bloodlust: Bleed on Critical Hit (100%)

• Synergizes with all currently existing Arms traits as they are
• Duration increase (+33%) could be removed or decreased, as Warriors would have greater access to bleeds
• Creates competing trade-offs with Arms Grandmaster Burst Precision (100% crit chance) and Furious (+stacking condi damage on critical hit)
• Multi-hit weapons (OH Axe, OH Dagger, Pistol, Greatsword, Spear, Gunsaber) & Fast attack weapons (MH Axe, MH Dagger) become Condi-capable weapons by maximizing hits-per-second to trigger conditions (a la Guardian)
• Creates the most condi & hybrid build opportunities for Core & All Elite Specs and weapon choice with the minimum needed changes

King of Fires: Get rid of the internal cooldown on crit causing aura

• Crit Chance becomes more valuable for condi-zerkers
• Less reliant on Leap finishers for combos
• Duration increase (+33%) could be removed or decreased, as Berserkers would have greater access to burns (especially if paired with Last Blaze)
• Creates tradeoff of utility skill selection (Rage skills) vs. utility usage (not having emergency buttons/utility) vs. DPS
• Maintains the current design with the minimum needed changes, allowing rebalancing across other traits

Fierce as Fire: Get rid of internal cooldown & do burning per round of ammo spent.

• Pistol becomes a Condi-burst weapon
• Gunsaber (all skills except auto-attack) becomes a Condi-capable weapon
• Armaments, Shouts, and some Physical skills become Condi-capable weapons
• Promotes Hybrid builds (rather than Condi specifically), as Dragon Slash is still Power-focused
• Makes the heat-glow of the Gunsaber actually make sense
• Works as indirect nerf to Dragon Slash, allowing ANet to refocus on Guns x Glory and/or Grandmaster Traits for Dragon Slash buffs.
• Maintains the current design of Bladesworn with new Condi opportunities with the minimum needed changes, allowing rebalancing across other traits

EDIT: I try to focus on the smallest changes possible to have the biggest impacts rather than reworking entire traitlines or mechanics. By making it small it means ANet doesn't need to invest much time in it so it's cost-savings for them, thereby making it more reasonable for them to look into it as an option rather than overhauling an existing Elite Spec to function better in-game.

Bloodlust being fixed instead of 33% would be great, even if they decided to nerf it to not make damage too high, getting rid of RNG is always a good action IMO. Saddly, a lot of classes have traits that work in a similar way (Barbed Precision for Necro, Burning Precision for Elem...) and they did nothing about those, the only one that got changed was Unrelenting Criticism (Firebrand trait), and i guess it was because it only worked on 1 weapon AKA Axe (and maybe because it was in an Elite Spec traitline)

King of Fires without internal cooldown can also work since it also make Condi Berserker less busted with an external Fire Auras provider, so Anet wouldn't have to balance while having Auraboosted version in their mind, so it would work pretty well (to be honest, i still prefer to have it reworked because the rotation is high paced and "hard", part of it being because of King of Fires, making it repulsive to people who could be interested in playing this build).

Fierce as Fire is the power trait granting strike damage on ammunition use and it has no internal cooldown, so i guess your refering to Lush Forest trait (the cooldown reduction on the use of the first ammunition skills, with the 1s ICD). To be honest, the traitline of Bladesworn would need some changes/rework for PVE (no idea about the variety of traits in sPVP), having a trait like you mentionned would make sense with Bladesworn (maybe just a bit weird with skills that don't have direct hit like shouts, but i guess thats also true with Last Blaze, so why not), even if it would maybe need an additional trait to make condi Bladesworn something good (Berserker have 4 interactions in its traitline in working with a condition build, having at least 2 on Bladesworn is needed).

The last point you mentioned is the most important and i agree with you, fully reworking traitline for the sake of 1 gamemode is not worth for them, that's why i tried to limit myself in my first post (and that's not what Condi Berserker really needs), however i think just touching at numbers is the laziest thing they can do, that's why i'm also hoping for at least slight changes for some traits (they did it with Smash Brawler a year ago when they added the extended duration on F1 use, similar stuff would be welcome)

 

Edited September 18 by Kallig.7258

[Kallig.7258]

3 hours ago, Guy.9207 said:

I just want Body Blow to actually do some substantial amount of damage. Can you imagine damage ticking down the more you CC someone? That just makes me go "mmmm, that's some good stuff right there!"

All that said, could also bake "condition on CC" into Spellbreaker as well. We have traits and stuff that could simply be merged together to make room for new condi ones, preferably ones with Torment because Warrior has been toying with this idea for a while now, but it never gets anything besides Sword 4 and...uh, I don't know what else really. At least it would synergize with Akeem and Fractals relic, I suppose.

I agree, Body Blow is a bit weak in PVE, and making it better could be the first step for them to create some hybrid option using Arms+Strength+Elite Spec.

There are a lot of ideas for new condition traits in Spellbreaker trailine and that's something a lot of people want (note that it already exists in sPVP so maybe Anet don't want to dig in that direction). In PVE, Spellbreaker is Warrior elite specialization that didn't get alacrity/quickness (IMO Berserker didn't need quickness, we already had a power and a condition build, both really different), and it doesn't have a condition build, making it lacking of variety in its playstyle (you play Power Tactics build or Power Defense build, weapon change but the playstyle is somehow similar).

Edited September 18 by Kallig.7258

[rainhelm.3827]

Slow damage ramp absolutely is an issue considering most of instanced PvE these days you just burn the enemy within mere seconds and if not it will probably have an invuln phase that will NUKE your dps, your berserk uptime and your quickness uptime aswell. But besides that, they could have just not have nuked the literal single condi build that warrior has access to but they just could not help themselves.

[Kallig.7258]

12 hours ago, rainhelm.3827 said:

Slow damage ramp absolutely is an issue considering most of instanced PvE these days you just burn the enemy within mere seconds and if not it will probably have an invuln phase that will NUKE your dps, your berserk uptime and your quickness uptime aswell. But besides that, they could have just not have nuked the literal single condi build that warrior has access to but they just could not help themselves.

Slow ramp up exists since years and because of that, it has been years Condi Berserker wasn't played on every bosses. If we look at the graph of the current benchmark (https://dps.report/RzZh-20231014-102529_golem), we can see we reach out maximum dps after about 80s, so we can consider this is our ramp up time. Note that the benchmark of the Spear Condi Renegade build at Janthir Wilds' launch didn't reach his maximum dps before the golem dies, which means its ramp up time is higher than 78s and it performed really well on bosses despite the speed of phasing/kills (yes the build is broken of course, but seeing it reach its benchmark number on a boss like Mursat Overseer NM  with a really good time overall, here is a log https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/0e214-20240824-182216_mo_kill, means slow ramp up class aren't unplayable). Most of people don't do speedrun kills and the current Condi Berserker isn't supposed to be used in these situation.

Considering armor stats (ex: Boneskinner is a "long boss" without phases but he has less armor than the golem so power builds are better on this boss), the phasings of bosses (ex: on Gorseval we want to phase the boss so we avoid the the updraft thing) and if the melee dps uptime is enough for us to apply our conditions (so not Ai CM/Dark Ai CM/Cerus CM), we could "safely" play it on Matthias, Xera (but you want to kill it fast anyway to not have to clear shards), Cairn, Mursaat Overseer, Soulless Horror, Dhuum, Largos (NM only), Sabir (but fast phasing->less mechanics), Qadim the Peerless, Kanaxai CM and Ankka.

If we look at https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/home median durations/phase durations for these bosses, we can see on this patch that the ones who became less Condi Berserker friendly because of powercreep are Xera, Largos NM, Sabir NM and CM, Qadim the Peerless NM and CM and finally Ankka NM and CM (for Dhuum, since its dps phases are long enough, more powercreep means you can phase him right before a Soul Split instead of phasing him at the start of a dps phase, so it's hard to say if powercreep is a good thing or not for Condition Berserker). So in total, over the 18 encounter (counting both NM and CM) where Condi Berserker should perform well, the powercreep affect it negatively on 8 encounters (not that much considering the difference between this build and the strongest builds of the patch).

Moreover, your point about the berserker uptime and the quickness uptime is not something that affect only Condi Berserker but also Power Berserker (they need to be melee and hit a target to get the berserker extension/quickness application, and you don't overcap those by a lot, so yes phasing hurts both classes). But Power Berserker is currently a really good build playable on a lot of bosses, even on the ones with phases or invulnerabilities timing, so it's clearly possible to make Condi Berserker build good without having to fully rework it just because of "phasing".

Edited September 19 by Kallig.7258

[Jzaku.9765]

You wrote a metric ton of content but I want to emphasize a tl;dr of what appears to be your first major point of Condi Berserker:

IT HAS REALLY BAD QOL

This is the main reason why its playrate is garbage as a wildly unpopular build to play despite it's """"""""high dps"""""""" (airquotes)

The APM is high, the punish for messing up is massive, the skills are sluggish, the build is entirely selfish, and the reward is being outdpsed by Virtuoso. 

Edited September 19 by Jzaku.9765

[Kallig.7258]

17 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

You wrote a metric ton of content but I want to emphasize a tl;dr of what appears to be your first major point of Condi Berserker:

IT HAS REALLY BAD QOL

This is the main reason why its playrate is garbage as a wildly unpopular build to play despite it's """"""""high dps"""""""" (airquotes)

The APM is high, the punish for messing up is massive, the skills are sluggish, the build is entirely selfish, and the reward is being outdpsed by Virtuoso. 

Those 4 lines are the best way to summerize the point yeah. I only wanted to point out what are, in my opinion, the issues of the build, why is the build in such state and what Anet could do to help this build without doing crazy changes, with the hope that maybe, if one of their devs goes on forum and find this, he might relay the overall idea, so the balance team take a look at the different feedbacks (on forums/reddit/some specific engame PVE discords...). I think using metrics is one of their way to approach things (which is fair), so showing them helps to clear up to a certain degree. 

[Mungrul.9358]

On 9/19/2024 at 4:59 PM, Jzaku.9765 said:

You wrote a metric ton of content but I want to emphasize a tl;dr of what appears to be your first major point of Condi Berserker:

IT HAS REALLY BAD QOL

This is the main reason why its playrate is garbage as a wildly unpopular build to play despite it's """"""""high dps"""""""" (airquotes)

The APM is high, the punish for messing up is massive, the skills are sluggish, the build is entirely selfish, and the reward is being outdpsed by Virtuoso. 

I find this with any Warrior build worth using to be honest; Elementalist often gets referred to as the "Piano" profession, but I find effective Warrior play to be almost as... busy.
Everything worth doing requires a combo and/or weapon swap.

And having played some other professions recently, the amount of effort required to achieve similar, or in most cases, better results is significantly lower.

My Harb, I just pop everything I need to get to 25 stacks, then enter shroud and auto-attack, and everything just melts.

Willbender, just keep spamming the virtues (that have ridiculously low cooldowns for movement skills), and make sure everything is on fire all the time by the occasional applaication of two skills, and then again, just fall back on auto-attack.

But the thing is, even though these perform better for less effort, they're nowhere near as fun to play as Warrior.

Edited Tuesday at 08:02 AM by Mungrul.9358

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I find this with any Warrior build worth using to be honest; Elementalist often gets referred to as the "Piano" profession, but I find effective Warrior play to be almost as... busy.
Everything worth doing requires a combo and/or weapon swap.

And having played some other professions recently, the amount of effort required to achieve similar, or in most cases, better results is significantly lower.

And yet they don't believe us, mostly because they roll a CC build or memeflame and somehow think that is the typical warrior experience.