nerfing cele stats

[MedievalThings.5417]

Ascended food like oyster soup will almost certainly still include conc and expertise, because that's how thorough they are.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Anekto.8391 said:

The only problem is you view raw numbers of stats as equally interchangeable. Its like saying if i convert 1000 precision to 1000 concentration nothing changes. The best example is actually precision. If you are below the 100% crit cap precision is a dice roll which is in itself not bad and gives a predictable damage output. Then add the crit damage modifier ferocity providing for each crit a unique dmg modifier but not for auto attacks. So basically each time you have to roll the dice and lose you lose double. First you lose the crit and then you lose out on the WHOLE ferocity stat. The ferocity stat doesnt come into consideration at all. But if you are suddenly at 100% crit. You are no longer rolling a dice every attack is a crit and ferocity will always pay off as a stat.

 

Not all stats are equal and not all classes can utilize them equally. If they wanna mess with gear they coudl get into deciding what kind of gear what kind of class is allowed to play and emphasize light medium heavy armor design even more. BUT THATS A WHOLE REWORK.

And condition damage, toughness, and vitality don't achieve the same thing for condi builds?

[Anekto.8391]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And condition damage, toughness, and vitality don't achieve the same thing for condi builds?

Maybe you can elaborate on your question and give examples how it relates specifically to what i say. And what your intention of your question is? E.g. are you trying to make a statement or seek understanding?

 

Anyway every stat synergizes with every stat and situation in guild wars 2 to some extend. If you class would only provide one boon and lots of power dps and one condi you would still benefit of the respective stats that increase the value of those boons auto attacks and condition.

 

You could try clear a camp in minstrel gear and see you will benefit from the minstrel stat but might not benefit in ways that seem relevant to situation you are dealing with.

 

[JimmydT.7281]

Hi!

The "problem" of celestial stats is concentration. Before the change which included concentration and expertise (not so important), cele was rarely played anywhere (PVE and WVW). This is because wide spread stats make you too weak to kill somebody or to outsustain the same guy. With concentration this changes dramatically. Boon duration increases ur sustain by a lot, allows some classes to maintain easily 20+ stacks of might and gives a huge buff to many traits or skills you have.

I would have suggested to rework the celestial stats like this:

Give all primary attributs a buff buy maybe 25% (that would be Power, Precision, Vitality and Toughness) and decrease the secondary attributes by 25%-30% (Condidamage, Healing, Expertise, Concentration and Ferocity). Don't be mad at me because of the numbers, whatever % is reasonable.

So cele would some some more offensive potential compared to 2020 (and would still be viable, i hope), but u cant become as bursty and untouchable as it might be in the current state.

The problem i have with this change is simply bringing cele back to was it was (and didnt work) is just lazy.

Have fun,

Jimmy

 

[Anekto.8391]

3 minutes ago, JimmydT.7281 said:

The problem i have with this change is simply bringing cele back to was it was (and didnt work) is just lazy.

Have fun,

Jimmy

I think cele was working fine before it was buffed. But that was a different point in time. IDK if it still holds up in current meta with nerfs? It seems sensible that nerfs will nerf performance of classes otherwise it wont be nerfs! So yeah some classes have to take a different approach if this goes through.

 

Really the easiest thing is to just REVERT THE CELE BUFF(make the nerf) and see whats up and ADJUST ACCORDINGLY in a TIMELY MANNER. But that would mean that balance team is on their toes and follows up fast. They could make it their urgent little side project to monitor and adapt. And take their longer approach for other nerfs buffs changes whatever.

 

You can always break stuff if you know how to make it work again.

[JimmydT.7281]

12 minutes ago, Anekto.8391 said:

Really the easiest thing is to just REVERT THE CELE BUFF(make the nerf) and see whats up and ADJUST ACCORDINGLY in a TIMELY MANNER. But that would mean that balance team is on their toes and follows up fast. They could make it their urgent little side project to monitor and adapt. And take their longer approach for other nerfs buffs changes whatever.

 

You can always break stuff if you know how to make it work again.

I hope so much that would be true. But i don't believe, that will be the case (after all the experience i have gained in multiple balance changes anet did). Do you really believe, there will be fast adjustments if cele underperforms? If you do, i really hope, you are right.

[Anekto.8391]

1 minute ago, JimmydT.7281 said:

I hope so much that would be true. But i don't believe, that will be the case (after all the experience i have gained in multiple balance changes anet did). Do you really believe, there will be fast adjustments if cele underperforms? If you do, i really hope, you are right.

Well i have this kind of delusion that i think anet cares about what i have to say. So your guess was pretty good !

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 9/19/2024 at 5:14 AM, JimmydT.7281 said:

Hi!

The "problem" of celestial stats is concentration. Before the change which included concentration and expertise (not so important), cele was rarely played anywhere (PVE and WVW). This is because wide spread stats make you too weak to kill somebody or to outsustain the same guy. With concentration this changes dramatically. Boon duration increases ur sustain by a lot, allows some classes to maintain easily 20+ stacks of might and gives a huge buff to many traits or skills you have.

I would have suggested to rework the celestial stats like this:

Give all primary attributs a buff buy maybe 25% (that would be Power, Precision, Vitality and Toughness) and decrease the secondary attributes by 25%-30% (Condidamage, Healing, Expertise, Concentration and Ferocity). Don't be mad at me because of the numbers, whatever % is reasonable.

So cele would some some more offensive potential compared to 2020 (and would still be viable, i hope), but u cant become as bursty and untouchable as it might be in the current state.

The problem i have with this change is simply bringing cele back to was it was (and didnt work) is just lazy.

Have fun,

Jimmy

 

this post is correct.

i've been a roamer since the game released and cele was not even used by roamers back when it didn't have concentration after the initial set of nerfs that reduced the total stats -- that's _why the buffed it_ to include conc and expertise.

 

nerfing cele just means that we (roamers) will go back to full power / full condi and trust me, that will be way more toxic to all the lower-skilled players that need to zerg.

 

the cele roamer meta was always about roamers fighting other roamers, but as above, cele works because it has boon duration and cele builds need high might uptime to be able to kill anything.

 

i totally agree that zergs now running cele on supports is a problem, i ran cele as supports in zergs long before it became popular, eventually WVW commanders caught on despite cele being the best support gear for literally years... but, the issue is not cele stats, it's that Anet has powercrept the hell out of boons and continually nerfed strips.

 

leave cele alone and fix the boon/strip problem.

Edited September 20 by scerevisiae.1972

[Thelgar.7214]

On 9/18/2024 at 3:21 PM, Anekto.8391 said:

I think cele was working fine before it was buffed. But that was a different point in time. IDK if it still holds up in current meta with nerfs? It seems sensible that nerfs will nerf performance of classes otherwise it wont be nerfs! So yeah some classes have to take a different approach if this goes through.

 

Really the easiest thing is to just REVERT THE CELE BUFF(make the nerf) and see whats up and ADJUST ACCORDINGLY in a TIMELY MANNER. But that would mean that balance team is on their toes and follows up fast. They could make it their urgent little side project to monitor and adapt. And take their longer approach for other nerfs buffs changes whatever.

 

You can always break stuff if you know how to make it work again.

They don't do that though. If they were inclined to work that way, they'd make a minor change, see what effect it has, then adjust with another minor change. They've always been ham fisted with this kind of thing, and always slow to revert or correct something. Nerfing an entire class of gear after it's been earned without a reasonable way to adjust out of that gear and taking forever to fix it isn't a good way to work. 

[alain.1659]

I think removing concentration and expertise is the right move. I use and love cele and have been using it for years even when it was quite bad. I just love how it works with some professions. I will still use it after the nerf. 

 

But making it is not easy. And wvw is a game mode that yields limited amount of resources. Making it redundant for most of the professions is not ok. Let people have a chance to change the stats for one time only as it becomes unusable for some people. 

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, alain.1659 said:

But making it is not easy. And wvw is a game mode that yields limited amount of resources. Making it redundant for most of the professions is not ok. Let people have a chance to change the stats for one time only as it becomes unusable for some people. 

Stat selectable exotic gear is very easy to get from WvW and stat changing ascended gear isn't expensive either, especially when you are swapping away from cele.

[igmolicious.5986]

tbh the only thing that will change on my WvW cele build will be moving to leadership runes. It'll drop boon duration from ~50% to ~25% but outside of a few boons it won't make much of a difference. The expertise loss is not much since fights dont usually last long enough for that to matter, and the ones that do last longer are against people who have a lot of cleanse anyhow. What I do very much look forward to is how people pivot on cele blaming when they lose a fight.

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 9/21/2024 at 7:36 PM, alain.1659 said:

I think removing concentration and expertise is the right move. I use and love cele and have been using it for years even when it was quite bad. I just love how it works with some professions. I will still use it after the nerf. 

 

But making it is not easy. And wvw is a game mode that yields limited amount of resources. Making it redundant for most of the professions is not ok. Let people have a chance to change the stats for one time only as it becomes unusable for some people. 

i think Anet are yet to make it clear why they want to nerf cele -- what's the problem? buffed cele has been around for years.

 

the problem, if there is one, is that zergs are using cele on supports, but that is a problem with boon availability and Anet nerfing boon strip, which is a problem of their own making in both cases.

making cele redundant again is not going to solve anything, zergs will just go back to mintrels.

[Mike.3196]

On 9/19/2024 at 5:21 PM, scerevisiae.1972 said:

this post is correct.

i've been a roamer since the game released and cele was not even used by roamers back when it didn't have concentration after the initial set of nerfs that reduced the total stats -- that's _why the buffed it_ to include conc and expertise.

 

nerfing cele just means that we (roamers) will go back to full power / full condi and trust me, that will be way more toxic to all the lower-skilled players that need to zerg.

 

the cele roamer meta was always about roamers fighting other roamers, but as above, cele works because it has boon duration and cele builds need high might uptime to be able to kill anything.

 

i totally agree that zergs now running cele on supports is a problem, i ran cele as supports in zergs long before it became popular, eventually WVW commanders caught on despite cele being the best support gear for literally years... but, the issue is not cele stats, it's that Anet has powercrept the hell out of boons and continually nerfed strips.

 

leave cele alone and fix the boon/strip problem.

U sound like your love getting carried by cele hmmmmmm

[Gaiawolf.8261]

21 hours ago, Mike.3196 said:

U sound like your love getting carried by cele hmmmmmm

You say that like it's a bad thing or something special. Everybody gets carried by stats, it just depends on where you want to allocate them. Try running naked and see how long it takes you to kill someone without being carried by all your offensive stats. 😏

Edited Tuesday at 03:18 PM by Gaiawolf.8261

[Sylvyn.4750]

35 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

You say that like it's a bad thing or something special. Everybody gets carried by stats, it just depends on where you want to allocate them. Try running naked and see how long it takes you to kill someone without being carried by all your offensive stats. 😏

Especially against the roaming hordes of willbenders and harbingers out there, thicker than thieves these days!  I like to run Cele Tempest, but I rarely see anyone else roaming on that for it to be a problem child, and yet it will be directly affected by the nerf and be in a worse position to take on the current meta roamers.

[Mike.3196]

4 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

You say that like it's a bad thing or something special. Everybody gets carried by stats, it just depends on where you want to allocate them. Try running naked and see how long it takes you to kill someone without being carried by all your offensive stats. 😏

I feel like we play different game if you think running cele stat isn't getting carried and running mara/dragon/zerk is.

[TheGrimm.5624]

25 minutes ago, Mike.3196 said:

I feel like we play different game if you think running cele stat isn't getting carried and running mara/dragon/zerk is.

If you were getting beat by players in the wrong gear stat for their build setup, that's a you issue. Can't count the number of times I was told stop playing minstrel while roaming while I was on a power build using power armor stats.

[Palikka.8249]

On 9/21/2024 at 2:21 PM, Zyreva.1078 said:

Stat selectable exotic gear is very easy to get from WvW and stat changing ascended gear isn't expensive either, especially when you are swapping away from cele.

Plus 3 ascended from wizard vault.

[Mike.3196]

22 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

If you were getting beat by players in the wrong gear stat for their build setup, that's a you issue. Can't count the number of times I was told stop playing minstrel while roaming while I was on a power build using power armor stats.

U took what I said and went opposite direction then gave me a example that doesn't even make sense lol

[igmolicious.5986]

2 hours ago, Mike.3196 said:

U took what I said and went opposite direction then gave me a example that doesn't even make sense lol

Maybe I'm the one misreading his comment, but it looks to me like he's saying that different builds rely on different stat selections in order to be effective, so cele won't work on every build, just builds that are built to use it best, and that you should take a look at your build and see if you're just using the wrong stat selection if you're having trouble with cele fights. The second part looks to just be highlighting that even in a power build with power stats, you can be mistaken for running healer stats if you build right, so the stats may not be the actual thing you're having trouble fighting.

Edited Wednesday at 08:44 PM by igmolicious.5986

[Cyninja.2954]

On 9/23/2024 at 5:37 AM, scerevisiae.1972 said:

i think Anet are yet to make it clear why they want to nerf cele -- what's the problem? buffed cele has been around for years.

This is actually easy to answer. Celestial getting buffed was a PvE decision. Its buff im WvW became an issue then and there as a side effect.

What happened later was:

1. A larger focus on WvW balance or WvW in general (no matter how you agree or disagree with the decisions made, it's obvious that WvW has been receiving more attention in recent times)

2. We have no idea how much work it took to separate stats between game modes, which was necessary for reverting celestial im WvW without doing so im PvE. Celestial being problematic in a competative mode goes as far back as its removal in Spvp

For all we know the developers might have had celestial on their to-do list for a while now, but only recently got to address it.

On 9/23/2024 at 5:37 AM, scerevisiae.1972 said:

the problem, if there is one, is that zergs are using cele on supports, but that is a problem with boon availability and Anet nerfing boon strip, which is a problem of their own making in both cases.

making cele redundant again is not going to solve anything, zergs will just go back to mintrels.

The problem of celestial extends beyond zergs/blobs. 

Celestial has been bullying out almost every other stat besides glass power build stats while even replacing minstrel on some supports.

Celestial was not redundant before the buff and it will not be redundant after the nerf. It will simply be less present, which is a boost ro build variety.

Edited Wednesday at 10:10 PM by Cyninja.2954

[scerevisiae.1972]

> even replacing minstrel on some supports.

isn't that a GOOD thing? every support in WVW was running minstrel but now SOME supports have switched to cele. Why is that a problem?

even if we stipulate it's a problem that needs addressing (i don't think so), why nerf 100% of the boon duration and condi duration? why not try nerfing 20-50% rather than 100%->0?

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:39 AM by scerevisiae.1972

[Cyninja.2954]

7 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

> even replacing minstrel on some supports.

isn't that a GOOD thing? every support in WVW was running minstrel but now SOME supports have switched to cele. Why is that a problem?

even if we stipulate it's a problem that needs addressing (i don't think so), why nerf 100% of the boon duration and condi duration? why not try nerfing 20-50% rather than 100%->0?

Minstrel is almost best in slot stats for a WvW support. The fact that a jack-of-all trades stat combo outperforms it is NOT good. It means the later is significantly over-stacked stat value wise.

You can't limit your definition of variety or choice to 1 stat bullying out another. Is it good that celestial is an alternative to minstrel? Sure. Is it good as to WHY that is the case? No.

Edited yesterday at 08:00 AM by Cyninja.2954

[Anekto.8391]

18 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You can't limit your definition of variety or choice to 1 stat bullying out another. Is it good that celestial is an alternative to minstrel? Sure. Is it good as to WHY that is the case? No.

Are you saying or am i taking away from what you say that the pure support gear (minstrel) is not strong enough on supporters to actually have them choose it over celestial. Or that much support is not necessary to perform well enough? Are supports not strong enough to choose a pure support over a celestial support?