nerfing cele stats

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

Don't be silly, it would never be fair. Some people would actually be able to see that the enemy is about to hit them and manage to dodge or avoid. There would still be ppl screaming hacks just because of that.

Are you master of the rollie pollie?

[CafPow.1542]

3 hours ago, Wolfhound.4381 said:

Like it or not, but that's the only way to make it truly fair. Give everyone the same class, weapons, gear, and skills. You play whatever you want in PVE but as soon as you step into WvW your something else while your there. Remove all the choices but race and skins/outfits, because fashion wars. 😉No more masteries because those can make a difference as well.

It's also the quickest way to kill the game mode.

Exactly. That’s why I ne should play a shooter or something if this is the goal. In an mmo, proper balance will never be.

but ofc we all agree that some outliers need some tuning, which cele got (rightgully or not.)

[Wolfhound.4381]

6 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Exactly. That’s why I ne should play a shooter or something if this is the goal. In an mmo, proper balance will never be.

but ofc we all agree that some outliers need some tuning, which cele got (rightgully or not.)

Tuning I would be fine with, Cele got an amputation. To be fair though it had all the stats at the time it came out IIRC. When they added expertise and concentration was when it should have been fixed by reducing all the stats to account for the two new ones.

With the old 3 stat combos, they should buff them a little instead of nerfing the 4 stats. They should also adjust the stats in both PVE and WvW instead of just nerfing them in one game mode.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 9/16/2024 at 2:48 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, this is them testing new tech to alter the WvW stats as WvW shares the same gear system as PvE.

If this test is successful what I would like to see them do is to normalize the stat totals of all gear to be equivalent to the 3 stat gear, including cele. 

I can't wait for everyone to play thieves and willbenders because one-shot meme builds is all there is to WvW. /s

[Riba.3271]

On 9/16/2024 at 3:48 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

 

If this test is successful what I would like to see them do is to normalize the stat totals of all gear to be equivalent to the 3 stat gear, including cele. 

Going this far wouldn't make sense because every build has stats they want to prioritize. For example if there was 1-stat gear set giving only power, but same total amount as 3-stat gear set, it would be ran in all power builds. So 4-stat gear sets need to have more total stats than 3-stat gear sets

[CafPow.1542]

54 minutes ago, Wolfhound.4381 said:

Tuning I would be fine with, Cele got an amputation. To be fair though it had all the stats at the time it came out IIRC. When they added expertise and concentration was when it should have been fixed by reducing all the stats to account for the two new ones.

With the old 3 stat combos, they should buff them a little instead of nerfing the 4 stats. They should also adjust the stats in both PVE and WvW instead of just nerfing them in one game mode.

I also would have nerfed all stats a bit instead of deleting those 2 but eh…

generally maybe nerfing all stats a little bit could be better to prevent to much power creep i don’t know?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Going this far wouldn't make sense because every build has stats they want to prioritize. For example if there was 1-stat gear set giving only power, but same total amount as 3-stat gear set, it would be ran in all power builds. So 4-stat gear sets need to have more total stats than 3-stat gear sets

I'm taking about reducing the total stat amounts on 4 stat gear to the same totals on 3 stat gear, or buffing 3 stat gear to have the same total amount of attribute points as 4 stat gear. I'm not talking about monostat gear in anyway shape or form.

[Chrome.9841]

On 9/16/2024 at 3:44 AM, scerevisiae.1972 said:

so removing boon & condi dur from cele will definitely kill a lot of build diversity

This is quite opposite. Builds got standardize after cele meta. In past we had more diversity.

They should even nerf it more like cutting some stats from healing power/vitality/thoughness. 

[Kulvar.1239]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm taking about reducing the total stat amounts on 4 stat gear to the same totals on 3 stat gear, or buffing 3 stat gear to have the same total amount of attribute points as 4 stat gear. I'm not talking about monostat gear in anyway shape or form.

Except that power,  precision, and ferocity have a multiplicative synergy.
So at equal sum, 4-stats would be weaker.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Except that power,  precision, and ferocity have a multiplicative synergy.
So at equal sum, 4-stats would be weaker.

Yes. Welcome to the whole point.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

38 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yes. Welcome to the whole point.

Except its against your own point.

Going by your suggestion would kill off every 4 stat combo in WvW, and yet ppl wud STILL default to some cookie cutter mixture of stat on power builds, that being Zerk/Assassin/Valk and almost nothing else, becuz having Major stat on Toughness/Vit like Cavaliers/Knights/Sentinels/Soldiers goes completely against the point of a power build.
TB users would simply change back to Dire cuz why not? Expertise isnt exactly super important for every build.
Minstrel users would default to Givers/Magi.
Your idea changes nothing except killing off non-3stat item sets, and ppl wud still settle into some stale, meta mixture of stats, becuz optimization is how the competitive scene works.

This isn't vanilla 2012 GW2 anymore, ppl aren't going to screw around using different builds and experimenting as much.
There were far less guides back then and some stuff had to come from Reddit posts, now you get build pages down to the Infusions of what to build, and the guide makers will just crank out more as the landscape changes, while the majority read them and copy paste.
You will NEVER be able to get back build diversity, those days all but ended at HoT, this is the reality of an old, established game.
 

[willow.8209]

11 hours ago, Wolfhound.4381 said:

Tuning I would be fine with, Cele got an amputation. To be fair though it had all the stats at the time it came out IIRC. When they added expertise and concentration was when it should have been fixed by reducing all the stats to account for the two new ones.

I agree with that

[Arheundel.6451]

15 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

I can't wait for everyone to play thieves and willbenders because one-shot meme builds is all there is to WvW. /s

Before that happens and people quit..we will create a bible worth of nerf requests, from here to reddit...I can promise you that. It's time to get serious and nerf willbenders, deadeye,grenades and similar unhealthy game design choices 

Edited September 18 by Arheundel.6451

[CafPow.1542]

5 hours ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

Your idea changes nothing except killing off non-3stat item sets, and ppl wud still settle into some stale, meta mixture of stats, becuz optimization is how the competitive scene works.

Yesterday i got blamed that i „don’t play a meta class“ and because of me, people with „proper classes“ can’t join ebg in Q-times etc…

there will always be a meta and people who are slaves to it.

[Anekto.8391]

Quote

So many threads about Cele, this has been discussed in several other threads as well but I'll try to give a recap:

* It's getting changed back to the original Celestial from 2013-2021, the new modified Celestial with boon/condi duration was a change from 2021-2024.
* It got used before the change, but less. Mostly by Guardian+Elementalist back in Core or before HOT. Being the only classes that could benefit from all stats at the same time.
* Adding the Boon/Condi duration, it got more popular, especially considering how rare those two stats are in good combinations with other stats.
* Newer Elite specializations has been built to do more on every skill, strike, condi, boon, etc. So they benefited more from Celestial than most older or Core.
* It ended up having a good enough mix of stats to almost take over for Condi damage builds in roaming, and many support builds in both roaming and also zerg.
* Most roamers just hate it because it has toughness, and they hate that, because they can't just burst people down.
* It will go back to how it used to be, and it will be used less, but still used. There are still classes that can use it as it was before Boon/Condi duration.
* People will still complain about it because it has toughness, roamers just really hate that.
* It will fall out of most of zerg play, except for a few classes that didn't need the boon duration anyways. Which was likely the main reason why ANet did this.

Nothing much will really change. The forums will just flounder about a few days until they can find something new to complain about.

Just wanna emphasize this post and add that builds profiting from cele the most are the ones having access to lots of different condis. Condi vomit with cele is just more effective than anything else. If you dont have access to a lot of condis there literally is no problem with cele. But take harbinger for example vomiting lots of condis and having access to power dmg just outperforms easily.

 

Not all classes are created equal and not all classes benefit equally from their gear.

 

And yes it seems most roamers (wvw) really hate having people not be oneshot and make an issue out of cele.

Edited September 18 by Anekto.8391
Forgot the quoted post

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 9/16/2024 at 6:23 PM, joneirikb.7506 said:

So many threads about Cele, this has been discussed in several other threads as well but I'll try to give a recap:

* It's getting changed back to the original Celestial from 2013-2021, the new modified Celestial with boon/condi duration was a change from 2021-2024.
* It got used before the change, but less. Mostly by Guardian+Elementalist back in Core or before HOT. Being the only classes that could benefit from all stats at the same time.
* Adding the Boon/Condi duration, it got more popular, especially considering how rare those two stats are in good combinations with other stats.
* Newer Elite specializations has been built to do more on every skill, strike, condi, boon, etc. So they benefited more from Celestial than most older or Core.
* It ended up having a good enough mix of stats to almost take over for Condi damage builds in roaming, and many support builds in both roaming and also zerg.
* Most roamers just hate it because it has toughness, and they hate that, because they can't just burst people down.
* It will go back to how it used to be, and it will be used less, but still used. There are still classes that can use it as it was before Boon/Condi duration.
* People will still complain about it because it has toughness, roamers just really hate that.
* It will fall out of most of zerg play, except for a few classes that didn't need the boon duration anyways. Which was likely the main reason why ANet did this.

Nothing much will really change. The forums will just flounder about a few days until they can find something new to complain about.

 

> * It's getting changed back to the original Celestial from 2013-2021, the new modified Celestial with boon/condi duration was a change from 2021-2024.

noone used it back then, that's why they buffed it.

> * It got used before the change, but less. Mostly by Guardian+Elementalist back in Core or before HOT. Being the only classes that could benefit from all stats at the same time.

ele is my most-played class, and i never used cele before the buff, power or zealots/clerics/marshals mixes were better.

> * Most roamers just hate it because it has toughness, and they hate that, because they can't just burst people down.

very untrue. a lot of roamers use cele. i'm a "roamer main" and i don't care if my adversaries use cele at all. or full tank gear for that matter. roamers win because they play better, that's all.

> Nothing much will really change. The forums will just flounder about a few days until they can find something new to complain about.

also untrue. many existing roaming builds on eg: guildjen are already being changed/reworked or removed. there is a net loss of build diversity and that is bad.

cele builds only work when they self-generate might to compensate for the big loss of damage, and it's the boon duration that keeps the might up and makes it work. the boon duration is crucial.

 

as i said, they could experiment with the impact of halving the boon & condi duration instead of fully removing.   

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18 by scerevisiae.1972

[One more for the road.8950]

19 minutes ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

> * It's getting changed back to the original Celestial from 2013-2021, the new modified Celestial with boon/condi duration was a change from 2021-2024.

noone used it back then, that's why they buffed it.

Considering it's the set you get when you do a lvl 80 boost I think the buff might have been meant as a training wheel set for those that went straight into playing lvl 80 professions they didn't know from leveling up. As they have kept it as is in PvE, that might also still apply. The point in time where they introduced the buff they had seen a surge of players due to people stuck at home, and Celestial is a good set for people heading out there with no idea whatsover until they figure out more about builds and gear.

In WvW they didn't really see an impact of it since it was just roamers using it, and say what you will (and I like all types of WvW play) but what larger squads and zergs do make larger blips on the combat radar than what any PvE players in for GOB, PvD/PPT trains or roamer population do due to the difference of numbers coming in. Celestial started getting used in WvW by the larger population and suddenly the radar is pointing to a problem.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 hours ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

Except its against your own point.

Going by your suggestion would kill off every 4 stat combo in WvW, and yet ppl wud STILL default to some cookie cutter mixture of stat on power builds, that being Zerk/Assassin/Valk and almost nothing else, becuz having Major stat on Toughness/Vit like Cavaliers/Knights/Sentinels/Soldiers goes completely against the point of a power build.
TB users would simply change back to Dire cuz why not? Expertise isnt exactly super important for every build.
Minstrel users would default to Givers/Magi.
Your idea changes nothing except killing off non-3stat item sets, and ppl wud still settle into some stale, meta mixture of stats, becuz optimization is how the competitive scene works.

This isn't vanilla 2012 GW2 anymore, ppl aren't going to screw around using different builds and experimenting as much.
There were far less guides back then and some stuff had to come from Reddit posts, now you get build pages down to the Infusions of what to build, and the guide makers will just crank out more as the landscape changes, while the majority read them and copy paste.
You will NEVER be able to get back build diversity, those days all but ended at HoT, this is the reality of an old, established game.
 

I don't think you understand my point then...

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't think you understand my point then...

Except I do.

You want to "improve build diversity", by limiting gear choices even further, and again, look how well that turned out for sPvP.
Your idea that '4 stat gear is often used for more survivability and thus should be nerfed in offense to compensate for defense" doesn't work when they are the same total as 3 stats, did I mention theres something called Berserker/Valk?
Nobody uses that, and it has the same 3 stat total, while looking like a Pseudo-Dragon stat set.
THAT is what happens to 4 stats if you nerf them down to the same total as 3 stats.

[igmolicious.5986]

20 minutes ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

Except I do.

You want to "improve build diversity", by limiting gear choices even further, and again, look how well that turned out for sPvP.
Your idea that '4 stat gear is often used for more survivability and thus should be nerfed in offense to compensate for defense" doesn't work when they are the same total as 3 stats, did I mention theres something called Berserker/Valk?
Nobody uses that, and it has the same 3 stat total, while looking like a Pseudo-Dragon stat set.
THAT is what happens to 4 stats if you nerf them down to the same total as 3 stats.

tbf I think that IS his point, he doesn't want people to use anything except 3-stat gear.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

Your idea that '4 stat gear is often used for more survivability and thus should be nerfed in offense to compensate for defense" doesn't work when they are the same total as 3 stats, did I mention theres something called Berserker/Valk?
Nobody uses that, and it has the same 3 stat total, while looking like a Pseudo-Dragon stat set.
THAT is what happens to 4 stats if you nerf them down to the same total as 3 stats.

You're throwing words into my mouth that I have not spoken. Please stop.

I will reiterate, normalize the stat totals from gear. That can mean nerfing 4 stat gear and cele gear to have the same total stat points as 3 stat gear, or it can mean buffing 3 stat gear to the total stat points of 4 stat gear and nerfing cele down to the 4 stat totals.

55 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

tbf I think that IS his point, he doesn't want people to use anything except 3-stat gear.

No, I want to normalize the total number of attribute points granted by gear. One of the main criticisms of cele gear was the raw total of attribute points it granted, which was made worse when it got concentration and expertise added to it.

Take your pick on which direction that normalization goes, I truly do not care.

[Kulvar.1239]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yes. Welcome to the whole point.

So you prone imbalance but are against the "celestial imbalance" because you fancy 3-stats?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

So you prone imbalance but are against the "celestial imbalance" because you fancy 3-stats?

You all really missed the point didn't you?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

And, no I do not have a preference for any particular stat combination, I'll play with any of them. My point is that cele will still have a raw stat advantage post nerf over 4 and 3 stat gear, and 4 stat gear will have its own raw stat total advantage over 3 stat gear. Normalize the stat totals and no one set will have a total stat advantage over another.

[Anekto.8391]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And, no I do not have a preference for any particular stat combination, I'll play with any of them. My point is that cele will still have a raw stat advantage post nerf over 4 and 3 stat gear, and 4 stat gear will have its own raw stat total advantage over 3 stat gear. Normalize the stat totals and no one set will have a total stat advantage over another.

The only problem is you view raw numbers of stats as equally interchangeable. Its like saying if i convert 1000 precision to 1000 concentration nothing changes. The best example is actually precision. If you are below the 100% crit cap precision is a dice roll which is in itself not bad and gives a predictable damage output. Then add the crit damage modifier ferocity providing for each crit a unique dmg modifier but not for auto attacks. So basically each time you have to roll the dice and lose you lose double. First you lose the crit and then you lose out on the WHOLE ferocity stat. The ferocity stat doesnt come into consideration at all. But if you are suddenly at 100% crit. You are no longer rolling a dice every attack is a crit and ferocity will always pay off as a stat.

 

Not all stats are equal and not all classes can utilize them equally. If they wanna mess with gear they coudl get into deciding what kind of gear what kind of class is allowed to play and emphasize light medium heavy armor design even more. BUT THATS A WHOLE REWORK.