A tale as old as time, NERF THIEF STEALTH IN WvW

[Framinthor.1672]

You can call me bad, and you will likely be right
You can tell me to GID GUD, and you might have a point
But let me tell you what I know about any Player vs Player experience in any game that I have ever played and done well with
Stealth or Invis is a mechanic that is by far the most hated for people to face against. Some games might have tried to still make it work by giving it decent cooldowns, by making it so that if you can stealth you might be less mobile so you have to reveal yourself and position yourself properly, heck, even without all that, you would at least be squishy as hell and if you are caught it's pretty much game over.
How does GW2 go about stealth in WvW? DJ, SPAM THAT S#!T!
I was watching a duel a couple days ago between two daredevils, it was similar to those anime duels where they move so fast that you can't see their movements...
Only problem is, they actually could not see each other's movements, before giving up their duel after about 5 minutes, the lowest any one of these DD's got was 70% HP, and you can count the amount of times it happened on 1 hand.
How is this fun to anyone to fight someone who can stealth for more duration in combat than they are visible? It looks like, feels like, and might actually be like, you are stealthing for 3 seconds every 1-2 seconds, continuously... This is the most absurd game design I have ever seen in any game trying to make stealth work. It's not even about facing thieves, it's just stupid to even watch them play, it is by far the worst design I have ever seen of a rogue like character, ever.
Thief mains, have fun bickering in the comments saying I am crying about stuff, but at the end of the day, I have not met one person who has fun dueling thieves, practically everyone on team chat says just walk away it's not worth the hassle... that is not a good game design that your playerbase doesn't even want to interact with that class when they see it.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

You can call me bad, and you will likely be right
You can tell me to GID GUD, and you might have a point
But let me tell you what I know about any Player vs Player experience in any game that I have ever played and done well with
Stealth or Invis is a mechanic that is by far the most hated for people to face against. Some games might have tried to still make it work by giving it decent cooldowns, by making it so that if you can stealth you might be less mobile so you have to reveal yourself and position yourself properly, heck, even without all that, you would at least be squishy as hell and if you are caught it's pretty much game over.
How does GW2 go about stealth in WvW? DJ, SPAM THAT S#!T!
I was watching a duel a couple days ago between two daredevils, it was similar to those anime duels where they move so fast that you can't see their movements...
Only problem is, they actually could not see each other's movements, before giving up their duel after about 5 minutes, the lowest any one of these DD's got was 70% HP, and you can count the amount of times it happened on 1 hand.
How is this fun to anyone to fight someone who can stealth for more duration in combat than they are visible? It looks like, feels like, and might actually be like, you are stealthing for 3 seconds every 1-2 seconds, continuously... This is the most absurd game design I have ever seen in any game trying to make stealth work. It's not even about facing thieves, it's just stupid to even watch them play, it is by far the worst design I have ever seen of a rogue like character, ever.
Thief mains, have fun bickering in the comments saying I am crying about stuff, but at the end of the day, I have not met one person who has fun dueling thieves, practically everyone on team chat says just walk away it's not worth the hassle... that is not a good game design that your playerbase doesn't even want to interact with that class when they see it.

i dont trust anything typed here, especially since you may have this set as an alternate account for the forums since your other might have been banned....ya 1 poster

put simply NO....revealed is already gonna be matching spvp next balance patch...
NO
No and again NO, dont trust your judgement.

Edited September 18 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Eugenides.1274]

Yeah, stealth spam is honestly pretty silly in this game. No real arguments there in my opinion.

I'd personally like to see the Shadow Arts trait (Shadow's Rejuvenation) that gives you initiative on stealth enter/exit reworked. The idea to apply Revealed on ANY stealth exit has also been thrown around since pretty much the game's inception. A full duration Revealed at 4 seconds might be a bit too punishing without any other compensation buffs but a Lesser Revealed for like 2 seconds if you didn't hit anything could be interesting.

All that being said I wouldn't really expect ANet to do anything major with stealth at this point.

Edited September 19 by Eugenides.1274

[FrancisN.9276]

Alright, we hear ya. In return of the proposed nerf, what do you suggest thief gains to make it balanced? 

[ZvolTx.3165]

8 hours ago, Eugenides.1274 said:

I'd personally like to see the Shadow Arts trait (Shadow's Rejuvenation) that gives you initiative on stealth enter/exit reworked.

Make it: Gain 1 initiative on stealth, gain 2 (or even 1*) initiative on attacking from stealth/being revealed. 

This way it doesn't reward stealth chaining as is currently used, and instead rewards playing aggressively from stealth for the majority of the initiative regeneration.

Shadows rejuv has ended up worse in the current iteration than it was when it let you do full permastealth and everyone hated it.

Now the stealth stacking trick is easier mechanically to perform, it requires less initial initiative to start and maintain the chain, and there's less counterplay. Great. 

 

* Why does it give so much initiative anyways? Upper hand (0.35 init/sec) gives nearly a third the initiative/second as shadows rejuvenation (1.0 init/second).........

[senftube.6081]

My points.

1. WvW is not about 1v1ing or Solo Roaming. It is a WORLD VS WORLD VS WORLD Mode.

2. A thief with lesser stealth would have be focused in all Grp Fights first because he is squishy and has nearly 0 sustain. Insta Kill

Thief is also the worst Zerg Class.

When you cut down stealth Anet has to buff the dmg insanly and that kitten will also lead again to 1-2 Shot situations. The QQ will start again but on a different end.

There are several anti thief mechanics in the WvW (Watchtowers, Traps etc.) no other class has.

When Anet does not want that they have to completely rework the entire class. The endproduct will be everything but no rouge class anymore.

Anet has also then to rewrok several hardcounters in the game as a whole. A Holo would super easy kill a thief same with ranger. Also mechanics like Watchtowers, sentries and traps and painter has then do be deleted from the wvw and give Thief sustain mechanics in return or even more mobility which will again start the QQ from the peoples.

Alot of peoples do have a big bias . You could see it when Grouto streamed yesterday. He talked about how OP class XY is but he forget that his own class was for months like a Monstertruck expecially in spvp. That he also plays a squishy build is his own choice also that he do solo roaming. This is an other main problem that alot of egocentric peoples try......... to copy their mindset and attidude onto the game and think everyone has to play the same way as they do. For me personally 1 shot builds are as lame like stealth spammer. Same with the full tank monsters.

 

Difference is i accepted and when a thief gets on my nuts i take out my holo or sick'em ranger.

So i guess the whole thing is like a dead end.

 

My verdict: Anet can't do any kitten.

Edited September 19 by senftube.6081

[Framinthor.1672]

I just want to be clear, the issue I have with thieves is only WvW, sPvP isn't that big of an issue because of the objective gameplay and the limited running space, and it already has its own balancing as well with reduced stealths.

As far as changes that would make this more balanced...
Yes it is true that you would have to compensate, but, I don't think the compensation should be just damage. Yes you can also increase some of their damage mechanics for exiting stealth and a few seconds after, but, in my opinion, there is another critical class fantasy that thieves/rogues have in general, and that is their swiftness in battle. A way to regenerate their stamina faster than just vigor and food on a cooldown, another ability or 2 of dodging an incoming attack (similar to their spin). Things of that nature would be another way to make them work without the need of purely increasing damage. 
I am not a balance team or a game designer, so I can't say how many seconds taken, how much damage added, how long for a dodge ability etc. All I can say as a player is that when I see a thief I don't even want to bother and I just go the other way, any other class I'll at least try my luck

[senftube.6081]

1 hour ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

I just want to be clear, the issue I have with thieves is only WvW, sPvP isn't that big of an issue because of the objective gameplay and the limited running space, and it already has its own balancing as well with reduced stealths.

As far as changes that would make this more balanced...
Yes it is true that you would have to compensate, but, I don't think the compensation should be just damage. Yes you can also increase some of their damage mechanics for exiting stealth and a few seconds after, but, in my opinion, there is another critical class fantasy that thieves/rogues have in general, and that is their swiftness in battle. A way to regenerate their stamina faster than just vigor and food on a cooldown, another ability or 2 of dodging an incoming attack (similar to their spin). Things of that nature would be another way to make them work without the need of purely increasing damage. 
I am not a balance team or a game designer, so I can't say how many seconds taken, how much damage added, how long for a dodge ability etc. All I can say as a player is that when I see a thief I don't even want to bother and I just go the other way, any other class I'll at least try my luck

Yea but here u said the answer already too. WvW is also not about 1v1 or duelling either. The Mode was designed for siegebattles and big teams fighting each others. The job of a thief would be taking out the healers of the enemy team and cleaning up the backline but this got killed aswell because now everyone is stacking on 1 square centimeter. The thief class is already deleted completly from that part of the game. (which alot do often forget)

That means a player who goes solo in WvW does that with risk

Every rouge classs work like this. In WoW the rouge can sit like for ages in stealth as example.

I do not know where this comes from or where it started but MMO Players in 2024 tryharding to play competitive Modes solo and that is absurd in its own. Because when you look on this part of the problem i guess not even the best designer could solve this. The thief is in its Class DNA  a good roamer and 1 Target DMG dealer. In the other hand he is abysmal in grp play compared to other classes.

This is like a football match where every player wants to do what they want but with that  you can't win any matches because for that you need all men doing their parts on the field.

There where already several peoples QQ about S/D Core aswell. "It has to much evades and 2 Schadowstepping"...............................as i said Anet could do whatever about thief peoples will QQ still.

Also every player can choose freely what class + build they want to play. I see so many times peoples choosing a class which gets hard countered from thief and going into duells with them and then loosing. I mean it is not the enemies faults when this player can only play 1 class and 1 build and has a skyrocket ego and thinks he is so good that he can kill everything (with 1 Class/Build) and when he looses going into the forums for Coping.

I myself QQ in the past also about thief but i did made one and after now 400h i see that thief is a strong 1vs1 class in wvw but insane bad in the grp. There are also several classes and builds which even unfair countering the 0815 D/P SA thief pretty hard. Against a good holo or warrior player which perma reveals you you can't do kitten against it with D/P.  Because you loose your defensive AND offensive abilities because the main dmg comes from backstab which is a stealth attack and only triggers when the thief is stealth. Also Ranger and Necro do have builds which counters them and guardian does have DH which is designed for countering them even. So the only ones who have maybe some problems are with no doubt Ele. Mesmer can 1 shot thief and has stealth aswell.  Anet can fix it maybe too when they give some more class some reveal (Ele). But when they are do this i think they should remove the sentry and tower reveal (second one is the indeed stupid because it kills of the entire class/build for fighting around towers).

I do not mean that Anet should not look that perma stealth chains get reworked because this is indeed idiotic expecially on bounding dodger trait. But deleting a whole class or removing a big part from it because some others do not like the mechanic behind it is egocentric as heck. Would be the same when thiefs would say pls remove all boons, blocks and invuls from the game.

And another big topic is also that many thiefs are forced to play SA because Deadly Arts and CS are not good traitlines. kitten is so worse it makes literally no sense atm to pick this traitline over SA. And that most builds even NEED Trickery for being even playable is the most kitten thing ever in this game. On other classes i can mix traitlines much more and how i want. On thief every build which is not spectre you have to use Trickery Traitline otherwhise you can delete the class indeed because not playable at all.

 

Edited September 19 by senftube.6081

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Thieves cant participate in blobs and get hard countered by moving too close to buildings. Players can buy kits from vendors to disrupt stealth as well.💀🍵

Listen to @senftube.6081. If you're roaming and you're not built to counter thieves, you're sandbagging yourself because the thieves can only roam and that is 100% where you will meet them. 

[Framinthor.1672]

I appreciate the replies and the guidance given in them.
My problem isn't that they are strong duelers, my problem is that they are not fun to duel. I get countered by many Ele builds and warriors, and some are also really good at getting away as well, but I don't get frustrated about those duels. I don't mind losing a duel, I just don't appreciate the design philosophy of stealth spams.

 

45 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Every rouge classs work like this. In WoW the rouge can sit like for ages in stealth as example

I have my fair share of problems with rogue's in wow, but it isn't really about their stealth, it is a key feature and I am fine with some stealth, I have come to accept it. In WoW's case, rogue's have too much CC capabilities along with their stealth, but as far as just their stealth gameplay it is not very often they go into it since they either have a long cooldown to insta stealth or they have to get out of combat.
Stealth / invis is a mechanic I can appreciate as an opener / encounter reset, not as a core combat mechanic that can only do this one thing and not much else.

[senftube.6081]

10 minutes ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

I appreciate the replies and the guidance given in them.
My problem isn't that they are strong duelers, my problem is that they are not fun to duel. I get countered by many Ele builds and warriors, and some are also really good at getting away as well, but I don't get frustrated about those duels. I don't mind losing a duel, I just don't appreciate the design philosophy of stealth spams.

 

I have my fair share of problems with rogue's in wow, but it isn't really about their stealth, it is a key feature and I am fine with some stealth, I have come to accept it. In WoW's case, rogue's have too much CC capabilities along with their stealth, but as far as just their stealth gameplay it is not very often they go into it since they either have a long cooldown to insta stealth or they have to get out of combat.
Stealth / invis is a mechanic I can appreciate as an opener / encounter reset, not as a core combat mechanic that can only do this one thing and not much else.

Yeag but bro it is also not fun to fight against block., invul or passiv aegis spammers. It also not fun to fight against Ele when a gate is near because they will always mistform into it and you can't kill them. It is also not fun to fight against rangers because all they do is sitting on the wall an pew pew. It is also not fun to fight against these healbots and tanks because there is not enough dmg when your alone to get them below 50%. It is also not fun to fight against AMX Engis because they will always pull you from the cliff and you die instant. It is also not fun to fight 3 mesmer at once because with the clone army you can never spot anymore the rights ones because of the clutter. etc etc. What i want to say is that the others fun is maybe my sadness and my fun is maybe not that funny for the other.

 

10 minutes ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

I appreciate the replies and the guidance given in them.
My problem isn't that they are strong duelers, my problem is that they are not fun to duel. I get countered by many Ele builds and warriors, and some are also really good at getting away as well, but I don't get frustrated about those duels. I don't mind losing a duel, I just don't appreciate the design philosophy of stealth spams.

 

I have my fair share of problems with rogue's in wow, but it isn't really about their stealth, it is a key feature and I am fine with some stealth, I have come to accept it. In WoW's case, rogue's have too much CC capabilities along with their stealth, but as far as just their stealth gameplay it is not very often they go into it since they either have a long cooldown to insta stealth or they have to get out of combat.
Stealth / invis is a mechanic I can appreciate as an opener / encounter reset, not as a core combat mechanic that can only do this one thing and not much else.

The thing is WoW has a different battle system than GW 2 (Dodge Mechanic more Action Based).  Many WoWers are often old and completly into the old rotation playstyl. So indeed they will and have a hard time against opponents which are completly reactive and mastered the timings.

Edited September 19 by senftube.6081

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Framinthor.1672 since you seem to have a good head on your shoulders, i advise you to make a thief instead of this, and go pick up some duels. I picked up thief as my secondary, and when you know what skills thieves use and the timing required for then, fighting them becomes much easier because you can keep a mental log of what they have access to even when you can't see them.

I can beat most thieves on just an axe warrior because every time they vanish I mutter "they used steal, they used blinding powder; they used shadow step, signet of endurance is or their bar so if they get cced in the next 50 seconds they instadie" or something like that mentally, because I know how the class works. 

[Framinthor.1672]

26 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Yeag but bro it is also not fun to fight against block., invul or passiv aegis spammers. It also not fun to fight against Ele when a gate is near because they will always mistform into it and you can't kill them. It is also not fun to fight against rangers because all they do is sitting on the wall an pew pew. It is also not fun to fight against these healbots and tanks because there is not enough dmg when your alone to get them below 50%. It is also not fun to fight against AMX Engis because they will always pull you from the cliff and you die instant. It is also not fun to fight 3 mesmer at once because with the clone army you can never spot anymore the rights ones because of the clutter. etc etc. What i want to say is that the others fun is maybe my sadness and my fun is maybe not that funny for the other.

These are not fair comparisons at all... It's the same as saying it is fun fighting a thief next to my tower... ofc situational awareness is a whole other beast, but fighting anyone near a gate is not fun, fighting any ranged while they are ontop of a wall is not fun, but that has nothing to do with the argument.
I don't mind fighting tanks and healbots at all, i can just walk away. Killing or dying is not mandatory for "fun" gameplay. Comparing 1 thief to 3 mesmers just shows you how annoying it is to fight a thief lol
Mesmers right now are powerhouses, and even with all their clones, their light stealth mechanics are still miles more interesting to fight against than a thief.

[Framinthor.1672]

7 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Framinthor.1672 since you seem to have a good head on your shoulders, i advise you to make a thief instead of this, and go pick up some duels. I picked up thief as my secondary, and when you know what skills thieves use and the timing required for then, fighting them becomes much easier because you can keep a mental log of what they have access to even when you can't see them.

I can beat most thieves on just an axe warrior because every time they vanish I mutter "they used steal, they used blinding powder; they used shadow step, signet of endurance is or their bar so if they get cced in the next 50 seconds they instadie" or something like that mentally, because I know how the class works. 

Thanks, I did try it out to see what they do and how much they can do it, and honestly it just left me scratching my head at how thieves can even die, unless they are just not aware of their surroundings, like towers / keeps. 
I just find it amusing that in order to even have a chance against a thief you have to just run a specific build made for countering thieves. Can you imagine having a prebuilt talent and gear set for each encounter you would face? and again, I don't care if I win or lose a fight, I just don't find them fun to fight against, even if I manage to kill one I don't feel satisfied I feel resentment that the character didn't get deleted lol

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

18 minutes ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

Thanks, I did try it out to see what they do and how much they can do it, and honestly it just left me scratching my head at how thieves can even die, unless they are just not aware of their surroundings, like towers / keeps. 
I just find it amusing that in order to even have a chance against a thief you have to just run a specific build made for countering thieves. Can you imagine having a prebuilt talent and gear set for each encounter you would face? and again, I don't care if I win or lose a fight, I just don't find them fun to fight against, even if I manage to kill one I don't feel satisfied I feel resentment that the character didn't get deleted lol

I'd hazard that needing a special build to counter thieves you encounter while toaming is fair enough, since they need to have special builds to contribute to frays at all and even then can only do so to limited effect. 

Quote

Thanks, I did try it out to see what they do and how much they can do it, and honestly it just left me scratching my head at how thieves can even die, unless they are just not aware of their surroundings, like towers / keeps. 

I reckon "you lose if you go too close to this building" is a very big unless, and am equally puzzled as to how people roaming want to shackle thief further instead of just kiting to a tower or sentry for mechanical advantage.

But that's just me. 

Did you happen to fight anyone while trying it out? How did it go? Have you tried fighting anyone that knows how thieves fight? How did -that- go?

Quote

I just don't find them fun to fight against, even if I manage to kill one I don't feel satisfied I feel resentment that the character didn't get deleted lol

I'd be all for balancing for fun interactions if more people proposing we balanced that way didn't actually mean the class they have issue with should have disadvantage. I'm not sure where you land yet.

Let's say you get what you want.  Less stealth. How does thief get a fair fight in this balance state? What kind of visibility would make them fair, and condidering they need stealth to get access to their damaging skills and mitigation, what kind of damage output would you be comfortable with?

Keep in mind this damage output will probably be applied instantly to you because of how ports work.

Edited September 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

I appreciate the replies and the guidance given in them.
My problem isn't that they are strong duelers, my problem is that they are not fun to duel. I get countered by many Ele builds and warriors, and some are also really good at getting away as well, but I don't get frustrated about those duels. I don't mind losing a duel, I just don't appreciate the design philosophy of stealth spams.

 

I have my fair share of problems with rogue's in wow, but it isn't really about their stealth, it is a key feature and I am fine with some stealth, I have come to accept it. In WoW's case, rogue's have too much CC capabilities along with their stealth, but as far as just their stealth gameplay it is not very often they go into it since they either have a long cooldown to insta stealth or they have to get out of combat.
Stealth / invis is a mechanic I can appreciate as an opener / encounter reset, not as a core combat mechanic that can only do this one thing and not much else.

That's fair. I think a lot of people who don't like fighting against stealth right now wouldn't have such a huge problem if the fight flowed visually. Stealth should be more about setting up a secure and decisive approach or for masking movement during map travel. I think some form of obfuscation once engaged up close would still be fine but there could be some residual visual ques trailing movement maybe and some transparency scaling in and out when in proximity of enemies. 

An underrated aspect of a fight in a game like this is vibing. Your instinct and muscle memory tune in and can pick up a lot of the workload while you make creative plays. That can be hard to tune in to if there's not some kind of flow to pick up on and stalk. 

I still don't get too annoyed with stealth right now unless they're one of those goobers who thinks I'm going to play will they wont they with them for more than a minute while they bunny hop around the map or whatever. I don't think it's as strong as people make it sound though. People need to remember everyone is playing the map as much as their builds and much of the maps and objects are going to be in their favor if they use it. 

[ZvolTx.3165]

2 hours ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

Can you imagine having a prebuilt talent and gear set for each encounter you would face?

As a thief, I literally have to do this. I have multiple builds and equipment setups on my main, each different strengths and weaknesses and I switch between them based on the classes/BUILDS I'm up against. I reckon most thieves worth complaining about in WvW are doing this. 

Edited September 19 by ZvolTx.3165

[Asur.9178]

The only one to blame for stealth and the state of thieves is the ANet's balance team 🤡 - not the players.

It's the balance team that shoehorned the class into stealth for defense/survivability and sustain.

It's the balance team that bundles all the high payoffs in damage and utility to stealth.

It's the balance team that has ignored serious thief issues like  Kleptomaniac along with Preparedness since 2012, and only contributed to making the situation worse over 12 years by balancing the class assuming Thieves will always and forever take Trickery in PvP.

Even the upcoming Oct 8th patch is a testament of their ignorance and lack of passion when it comes to this class.

It's the balance team that decided to give other classes more access to stealth; even ranger, a significantly more tanky and bursty class than thief, got more access to stealth with JW.

If anyone wants someone to blame for stealth abuse in this game, they need to look at the balance team 🤡.

[Framinthor.1672]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I reckon "you lose if you go too close to this building" is a very big unless, and am equally puzzled as to how people roaming want to shackle thief further instead of just kiting to a tower or sentry for mechanical advantage.

my point being is that Thieves have to really mess up in order to die just because of how easy it is for them to get in and out of trouble, not even just because of their mobility (since Herald, Ele, WB and some WAR builds have similar advantages), but just due to their ability to stealth while also porting around and do it extremely often.
 

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Let's say you get what you want.  Less stealth. How does thief get a fair fight in this balance state? What kind of visibility would make them fair, and condidering they need stealth to get access to their damaging skills and mitigation, what kind of damage output would you be comfortable with?

Ofc this is a hard one to answer because I am not someone who balances out, I am just talking about my frustration of the design philosophy. I don't think removing stealth altogether is fair for those who enjoy that ...... mechanic, and ofc they will need to be compensated for a reduction in stealth durations.
Multiple things can be a solution, give out more reveal mechanics to everyone, but that would be a problem for other classes like druid and mesmers so too much to balance there
give thieves more reason to not go into stealth as often, something like a stacking buff for being out of stealth for x duration, like every 5 seconds in combat out of stealth gives 8 might or just a pure % damage increase for being out of stealth while in combat, call it adrenaline or something lol
Obv there are flaws in what I am suggesting, i don't know all the ins and outs of classes and their interactions, all I can say is, I haven't met anyone in WvW who says anything positive about encountering a thief in WvW, and most people just say run the other way cuz its not worth the hassle. 
If a thief doesn't want to die, it won't, and not due to skill, but due to spammable stealth which is just cheap game mechanic making you just not want to interact with it.

Notice I don't complain about mesmer here which can go invis for 20+ seconds, so they too can make a build that if they don't want to die they won't, but I don't mind it at all.
The issue is how forgiving it is for thieves to go in and out of combat with practically no repercussions

[Framinthor.1672]

1 hour ago, ZvolTx.3165 said:

As a thief, I literally have to do this. I have multiple builds and equipment setups on my main, each different strengths and weaknesses and I switch between them based on the classes/BUILDS I'm up against. I reckon most thieves worth complaining about in WvW are doing this. 

That is pretty crazy, I am all for having multiple builds to deal with different problems, but to have more then 3 or 4 builds needed to cover every possible encounter is a bit wild.
I'll give it to you that it does increase player choice and can make the game more dynamic, but there's also an area where too much choice is not an attractive prospect.
too many choices and learning too many matchups plagues many games that have a complex pvp systems like mmorpgs, and similarly MOBAs, it is extremely not welcoming to people to give it a shot, but also how can one even deal with it because removing choice can get the dedicated audience bored of it as well... 
Definitely a dilemma that no game has been able to solve yet, though the new sPvP mode and FFXIV's PvP remake gave it a fair try.

[senftube.6081]

3 hours ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

That is pretty crazy, I am all for having multiple builds to deal with different problems, but to have more then 3 or 4 builds needed to cover every possible encounter is a bit wild.
I'll give it to you that it does increase player choice and can make the game more dynamic, but there's also an area where too much choice is not an attractive prospect.
too many choices and learning too many matchups plagues many games that have a complex pvp systems like mmorpgs, and similarly MOBAs, it is extremely not welcoming to people to give it a shot, but also how can one even deal with it because removing choice can get the dedicated audience bored of it as well... 
Definitely a dilemma that no game has been able to solve yet, though the new sPvP mode and FFXIV's PvP remake gave it a fair try.

ye but thief often has to do this because D/P vs Harbinger Cele is a complete sweating fight. Deadeye is much better so they often run several templates.

One thing i also wanted to add is that on Thief most casual players are very bad. So the super strong thief players are mostly main players of this class and many of them do have sometimes more than 6000 Hours on that class. Look at Sindrener or Yama they both have at least 7000k on thief class (i guess it is much more). Sure these two guys will wreck alot of players but they would do that also on other classes with that amount of playtime. The game is over 10 years old and yes the veterans which do play since day 1 are super hard enemies often. And because thief is one of the least played class in the game the chance is much higher to meet some of such players. There are way way more guardian or ranger players in WvW than thiefs. This situation can lead fast to a confirmation bias sadly (happens to me aswell alot) like all these thief so strong, must be broken. But the part that maybe  a newbie is fighting a vet who does roaming for over a decade is completly missed out. This is a big factor which often is forgotten by the players but the devs do see this because they have the metrics data logged by the servers.

Edited September 19 by senftube.6081

[Framinthor.1672]

19 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

This situation can lead fast to a confirmation bias sadly (happens to me aswell alot) like all these thief so strong, must be broken. But the part that maybe  a newbie is fighting a vet who does roaming for over a decade is completly missed out.

Well as I've mentioned before, it's not much about winning and losing as it is about even willing to fight the class.
I have died more times to mesmers than to thieves and I enjoy fighting them even knowing I will probably lose, with all their infinite images lol
Even elementalists that I really don't know when to engage and when to back off I find enjoyable to fight, and I think my win rate against elementalists is like 10%.
I just cannot see in any way shape or form how it is interesting to fight a thief, knowing full well that he can just bounce out of the fight at any moment, and even while fighting it becomes just a pain to keep track of the tiniest threads of his spammable stealth teleportarions... it's just not fun, not interesting, and not engaging class to bother fighting.

[Jobber.6348]

Again, I rather Stealth not be nerfed but Reveal mechanics buffed.

A counterplay buff is also an indirect nerf, but we can opt not to touch Stealth in favor of buffing reveal mechanics no?

 

Edited September 20 by Jobber.6348

[Framinthor.1672]

More ways to reveal would be a nerf but my fear is it would affect other classes too like mesmers and rangers

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 hour ago, Framinthor.1672 said:

More ways to reveal would be a nerf but my fear is it would affect other classes too like mesmers and rangers

Ranger's with Spear not so much,  they can still use stealth attacks while revealed.

 

I don't even know if ranger spear is good