Thieves are fine, you're just bad

[MaLong.2079]

It is good and all to vent but remember that this is nothing new.

The only way thief will change is if it becomes very popular. Even if you don't like easy fights, play thief.

Make it popular, make it the most used profession in the game, specially competitive game modes.

We all know the problems, including anet. But anet has shown that they don't fix what is broken. They change what is popular to get people to use unpopular stuff. They do it with everything, professions, skills, weapons, etc.

The thing with thief is that they keep buffing it but most people still don't play it.

So, if you want it to change, start playing it and make it popular.

When the posts titles change from 'nerf teef' to 'only thieves in wvw/pvp/pve', thats when change will come. Not before.

[Kulvar.1239]

3 hours ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

Thief is already getting some level of nerf in WvW with the upcomming extension of self reveal, but I do still very much think that every core profession should have access to at least 1 way to apply revealed through traits or skills. I will always equate stealth to conditions or CC, and hold that since every core profession has at least 1 cleanse and 1 stunbreak to counter conditions and CC, they need at least 1 reveal to counter stealth. No mechanic should be uncounterable by 5 out of the 9 core professions.

Thieves wait for stealth to expire so they never get revealed in the first place. They could make it last 10s it wouldn't change a thing.

[XenesisII.1540]

All I read here was you're a bad player and thief. 🤷‍♂️

[Ashen.2907]

So many logical disconnects there. 

[MaLong.2079]

On 9/20/2024 at 5:49 PM, bigmouse.2163 said:

So if you all think that thief mains are bad, and only play thief because we're too bad to play other classes, would you be willing to fight me 1v1? I'm on Hall of Judgment. I'll meet you by the windmill south of south camp on Alpine. You bring a thief, and I'll bring a class that's not a thief. If thieves are as OP as you all claim, you should be able to beat me easily. Do any of you want to do this?

Make it fun. Pay 100g to any thief that kills you and 50g to any thief that you fail to kill.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 9/20/2024 at 5:49 PM, bigmouse.2163 said:

So if you all think that thief mains are bad, and only play thief because we're too bad to play other classes, would you be willing to fight me 1v1? I'm on Hall of Judgment. I'll meet you by the windmill south of south camp on Alpine. You bring a thief, and I'll bring a class that's not a thief. If thieves are as OP as you all claim, you should be able to beat me easily. Do any of you want to do this?

No, they'd rather come here to vent about their shortcomings instead of learning to play one as to find its counter or weaknesses. Gen z mostly I bet lol.

[Triptaminas.4789]

Target painters or power scrappa with granade kit carpet bombing around fixes thief issue

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

16 hours ago, MaLong.2079 said:

It is good and all to vent but remember that this is nothing new.

The only way thief will change is if it becomes very popular. Even if you don't like easy fights, play thief.

Make it popular, make it the most used profession in the game, specially competitive game modes.

We all know the problems, including anet. But anet has shown that they don't fix what is broken. They change what is popular to get people to use unpopular stuff. They do it with everything, professions, skills, weapons, etc.

The thing with thief is that they keep buffing it but most people still don't play it.

So, if you want it to change, start playing it and make it popular.

When the posts titles change from 'nerf teef' to 'only thieves in wvw/pvp/pve', thats when change will come. Not before.

I've been trying to do this for years by making EcK but no one really bites. 

Send em to me,  it'll get thief notice for reworks and we can work on killing boonballs in wvw...win win

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

17 hours ago, MaLong.2079 said:

So, if you want it to change, start playing it and make it popular.

The problem is playing thief is boring as kitten:

 https://media1.tenor.com/m/ilPf7Nnj5CAAAAAC/computer-drinking.gif

Edited Sunday at 10:23 AM by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Anekto.8391]

4 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

No, they'd rather come here to vent about their shortcomings instead of learning to play one as to find its counter or weaknesses. Gen z mostly I bet lol.

So i have a thief and it looks pretty and is very rp thiefy. And i sometimes log in wvw with it (seldom now as i spam cele ele) and there was one day some enemy zerg was in our camp 25 people or more. And i was just running among them in perma stealth as deadeye because this is the easiest spec of thief to play if you are no main. You can retreat at will (without infiltration) and not need overextend. I farmed some noobies but had problems with players tankier and smarter or in groups basically me clouding them like some fly trying to shoot one down which was not possibile. It was not so fun so i stopped. So i really would like to pick up the profession some more 🙂

(The gear for deadeye i used was 100% crit chance i think it was mix of assassins and berserker i really wanted that sniper pew pew experience! Made a real flashy play too! With some random ports and backup from a friendly mesmer)

 

Later i tried daredevil in wvw out and saw well its even easier to perma stealth than deadeye which came to a surprise with me. Then i tried some cele condi burst interrupt builds but did pivot to another class after it got bit boring.

Edited Sunday at 12:41 PM by Anekto.8391

[Silinsar.6298]

Bottom line is: either you learn how to fight popular meta specs with whatever you're running, play them yourself, accept your disadvantage or simply take a break from the game. If you're not willing to do any of those you end up a forum warrior.

[senftube.6081]

2 hours ago, Anekto.8391 said:

So i have a thief and it looks pretty and is very rp thiefy. And i sometimes log in wvw with it (seldom now as i spam cele ele) and there was one day some enemy zerg was in our camp 25 people or more. And i was just running among them in perma stealth as deadeye because this is the easiest spec of thief to play if you are no main. You can retreat at will (without infiltration) and not need overextend. I farmed some noobies but had problems with players tankier and smarter or in groups basically me clouding them like some fly trying to shoot one down which was not possibile. It was not so fun so i stopped. So i really would like to pick up the profession some more 🙂

(The gear for deadeye i used was 100% crit chance i think it was mix of assassins and berserker i really wanted that sniper pew pew experience! Made a real flashy play too! With some random ports and backup from a friendly mesmer)

 

Later i tried daredevil in wvw out and saw well its even easier to perma stealth than deadeye which came to a surprise with me. Then i tried some cele condi burst interrupt builds but did pivot to another class after it got bit boring.

And what is now the big problem running around in stealth in a zerg of 25 and doing nothing? You can do that in ESO aswell and there even with every class.

[igmolicious.5986]

18 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Thieves wait for stealth to expire so they never get revealed in the first place. They could make it last 10s it wouldn't change a thing.

 

Maybe your experience is different than mine. Thieves I fight very regularly attack from stealth to get the stealth attack, especially deadeyes with the malice bonus they get. The only thieves I've fought that actually waited for stealth to run down before attacking were cloak and dagger builds which are pretty rare now. Now, going from 3s to 4s might seem like a big nerf (33% increase) but that's also not taking into account the weird issue of, I guess server lag(?), often causing a destealthed player to not actually become visible to other players immediately, making it seem like they have time visible than they should -- that said, an extra second of being revealed is still an extra second that they can be targetted.

  

5 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Target painters or power scrappa with granade kit carpet bombing around fixes thief issue

If target painters were free, I'd say that they'd be a fine counter, but having to spend 10 supply to use means even max supply you have 2 chances total to hit. Side note: I'd also like to see tricks/traps become a "special action" ability when used rather than flipping the weapon bar.

Edited Sunday at 03:17 PM by igmolicious.5986

[Anekto.8391]

30 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

And what is now the big problem running around in stealth in a zerg of 25 and doing nothing? You can do that in ESO aswell and there even with every class.

Well it was the enemy zerg. So was strange feeling being surrounded by enemies and they basically didnt know that in the middle of them stands their enemy. I couldnt do anything about them either!

 

Like there was no panic included. OMG i am gonna face the pixel death. But it was a bit weird. Mabye uneasy?

Edited Sunday at 03:24 PM by Anekto.8391

[Leger.3724]

36 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

Bottom line is: either you learn how to fight popular meta specs with whatever you're running, play them yourself, accept your disadvantage or simply take a break from the game. If you're not willing to do any of those you end up a forum warrior.

Do you not see the problem with what you wrote? People new to WvW join, they end up running to try to join up with a commander tag. A thief in particular shits on them and they can't fight back because they're new and it's probably their first pvp experience in the game. They decide to take a break from the game.

This is what Arena Net needs to be concerned about. It needs to be concerned about roaming specs being able to abuse a new player and convince them not trying pvp again is the right move.

Thieves don't really bother me that much. But it bothers me they are one of the major reasons WvW can't get and retain new players.

[igmolicious.5986]

5 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Do you not see the problem with what you wrote? People new to WvW join, they end up running to try to join up with a commander tag. A thief in particular shits on them and they can't fight back because they're new and it's probably their first pvp experience in the game. They decide to take a break from the game.

This is what Arena Net needs to be concerned about. It needs to be concerned about roaming specs being able to abuse a new player and convince them not trying pvp again is the right move.

Thieves don't really bother me that much. But it bothers me they are one of the major reasons WvW can't get and retain new players.

Unfortunately it's not just thieves that do this, so this isn't really a thief-related issue, but a community issue. The guild I am in generally makes it a point to leave anyone below bronze ranks alone unless they start a fight or we are defending an objective that they are trying to take, just to help them have an easier time getting into the game mode -- plenty of us started as that solo new person just trying to farm a Gift of Battle. This is another one of those "be the change you want to see" issues.

[Leger.3724]

2 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

Unfortunately it's not just thieves that do this, so this isn't really a thief-related issue, but a community issue. The guild I am in generally makes it a point to leave anyone below bronze ranks alone unless they start a fight or we are defending an objective that they are trying to take, just to help them have an easier time getting into the game mode -- plenty of us started as that solo new person just trying to farm a Gift of Battle. This is another one of those "be the change you want to see" issues.

The thief has access to way more stealth. It's going to be different for a new player than say a Willbender. Sure, a willbender or a core ranger is more OP. But the new player isn't going to have trouble targeting them and hitting them for a little bit of damage so at least there's something.

The reality is - thieves and mesmers are harder to deal with for new players. Thieves purely because of stealth. Mesmers because of a bit of stealth + clones.

[Codename T.2847]

9 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

The thief has access to way more stealth. It's going to be different for a new player than say a Willbender. Sure, a willbender or a core ranger is more OP. But the new player isn't going to have trouble targeting them and hitting them for a little bit of damage so at least there's something.

The reality is - thieves and mesmers are harder to deal with for new players. Thieves purely because of stealth. Mesmers because of a bit of stealth + clones.

Idk, I used to smoke ruin daily doers in 1.5-3 seconds on core Ele, so this is more of an issue of players who've become way too fookhing good at the game for the new players to understand, not necessarily tied to any class or any specific build. 

[Leger.3724]

3 minutes ago, Codename T.2847 said:

Idk, I used to smoke ruin daily doers in 1.5-3 seconds on core Ele, so this is more of an issue of players who've become way too fookhing good at the game for the new players to understand, not necessarily tied to any class or any specific build. 

If people in GW2 were good at pvp they'd be successful at other games and wouldn't feel the need to dunk on everyone they come across.

Nobody is good because they spent way more time learning something nobody else wanted to learn and then abusing people who are at orientation day.

The CEO of the company doesn't come to the interns on training day to kitten on them for not being as good. But that's definitely something some poor to mediocre middle-management type does.

Edited Sunday at 03:56 PM by Leger.3724

[Codename T.2847]

12 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

If people in GW2 were good at pvp they'd be successful at other games and wouldn't feel the need to dunk on everyone they come across.

Nobody is good because they spent way more time learning something nobody else wanted to learn and then abusing people who are at orientation day.

The CEO of the company doesn't come to the interns on training day to kitten on them for not being as good. But that's definitely something some poor to mediocre middle-management type does.

Thats a pretty bad faith argument. I think most people who roam around in Gw2 nowadays only do it because there is not one game that hits quite the same, it's not necessarily because they'd get farmed in other MMOs or MOBAs. I used to run around as a newbie at some point too, but I picked every single fight anyway, and there weren't no friendly enemies back then neither.. When it comes to more recent times, when I run into some obviously new player I tend to just leave them alone to do their thing; but please understand that almost everyone else doesn't play like this and, on the contrary to your idea, the average WvW player tends to get more friendly/carefully peaceful around players that they know they *can't* beat. You know, the very good players who they would just lose against anyway, usually running distinguishable guild tags and stuff. 

Note: when it comes to thief mains playing the game as they do, there are a couple reasons for that. Maybe they fell in love with that class first, maybe they also realized eventually that it's objectively the best class for roaming/dueling/ganking, or maybe they would just die on every other class and they psychologically can't handle that for some reason... Hard to say, really

Edited Sunday at 04:10 PM by Codename T.2847

[senftube.6081]

1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

Do you not see the problem with what you wrote? People new to WvW join, they end up running to try to join up with a commander tag. A thief in particular shits on them and they can't fight back because they're new and it's probably their first pvp experience in the game. They decide to take a break from the game.

This is what Arena Net needs to be concerned about. It needs to be concerned about roaming specs being able to abuse a new player and convince them not trying pvp again is the right move.

Thieves don't really bother me that much. But it bothers me they are one of the major reasons WvW can't get and retain new players.

And how should a new player get better at the game when as you say everything should be easy lmao. Also think that thiefs are the main problem of the WvW because not more fresh players are joining it is pure coping. Bro we play since rls on the same maps with the worst Meta ever and you think one of the least played class in WvW is the cause of this. 🤡

Edited Sunday at 04:52 PM by senftube.6081

[Leger.3724]

4 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

And how should a new player get better at the game when as you say everything should be easy lmao. Also think that thiefs are the main problem of the WvW because not more fresh players are joining it is pure coping. Bro we play since rls on the same maps with the worst Meta ever and you think one of the least played class in WvW is the cause of this. 🤡

The first experience of a new player in wvw shouldn't be getting 100-0ed by some sweat who peaked at Gold 5 in League of Legends and uses macro keys in violation of the TOS to avoid taking damage and is stealthed up for over half the fight to do so.

You're bad at pvp, champ 🤪

Edited Sunday at 04:54 PM by Leger.3724

[senftube.6081]

1 minute ago, Leger.3724 said:

The first experience of a new player in wvw shouldn't be getting 100-0ed by some sweat who peaked at Gold 5 in League of Legends and uses macro keys in violation of the TOS to avoid taking damage.

You're bad at pvp, champ 🤪

Im not the one which is QQing and Coping here, QQ Champ. You talk like 80% of WvW is made of Thiefs. .

Edited Sunday at 04:55 PM by senftube.6081

[Leger.3724]

3 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Im not the one which is QQing and Coping here, QQ Champ. You talk like 80% of WvW is made of Thiefs. .

You're right - a lot of mesmers, rangers and guardian (willbenders) too.

I was pointing out the worst possible experience a new player could have.

Nobody is saying a new player should win. But they should have a chance to win. And against a thief (or even a willbender if it hurts your fee fees less) there is literally no chance a new player ever wins. The thief will run away if the new player figures out targeting and plays it smart.

[Silinsar.6298]

1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

Do you not see the problem with what you wrote? People new to WvW join, they end up running to try to join up with a commander tag. A thief in particular shits on them and they can't fight back because they're new and it's probably their first pvp experience in the game. They decide to take a break from the game.

Yet the first advice new players usually get is "join a tag". And imo, it's bad. I don't know when exactly it changed, but back in my days new players were first advised to practice the basics (dodging, stun break, boon / condi metagame, combo system) in sPvP / unranked and taught how to avoid ganks. Raid and GvG guilds would even "simulate" them (have 1-2 thieves jump a squishy backliner) in a private server while spectating and giving them tips. You also learned to take a different path altogether when you knew there was someone around preying on respawners or waited until a few more people respawned to travel together.

Now everyone just tries to ride right through you with their Warclaw even when they're on their own and expects to be left alone. Look around, use Sniff, take a little detour. Don't approach players you don't want to fight. And it's easier than ever to pack some sustain / quickly switch build to travel.

 

1 hour ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

Unfortunately it's not just thieves that do this, so this isn't really a thief-related issue, but a community issue. The guild I am in generally makes it a point to leave anyone below bronze ranks alone unless they start a fight or we are defending an objective that they are trying to take, just to help them have an easier time getting into the game mode -- plenty of us started as that solo new person just trying to farm a Gift of Battle. This is another one of those "be the change you want to see" issues.

That way you're denying them the opportunity to learn and encourage false expectations. Done that for years - Now I think it's better to teach people how to handle the situation or avoid it. I attack most players (since they won't shy away from ganging up on you either as soon as they have the numbers) but I usually let them self res if they're low-ranked. Still, there's smurfs/alts and sPvP folks in WvW, and Diamond ranks that seem to have never needed their dodge key. Rank's just an inaccurate representation of a player's smallscale experience so you never know how well prepared someone is until you fight them.

Edited Sunday at 05:06 PM by Silinsar.6298