Rethink the celestial nerf

[Medusa.7346]

It's not warranted at all. I'm guessing the devs saw a few people whining about it on the forums/Reddit - most likely the same people who whined until WvW was removed and replaced with AvA. AvA isn't fun for roamers. In fact, the only people who like the new system are those in organized guilds who treat the game like a job (the perennially online types) and those who enjoy griefing others, and have found either a broken build or a third-party program that allows them to do so.

The rest of us - the MAJORITY of players - are casual gamers who loved dipping our toes in WvW from time to time. Celestial in its current form gives us the tools to survive just long enough, as roamers, to escape the guild blobs intent on hunting solo players down - if we're quick. It gives us a chance to at least escape from those griefer types, or frustrate them enough that they go hunt down someone else. 

Nerf celestial and you'll kill roaming for good. The game mode is already virtually unplayable, with AvA now full of toxic, awful people. Is this what you really want your game to become?

[Zyreva.1078]

Didn't know cele gear also grants a speed buff ...

As a roamer myself i can't say that WR changed much - getting ganked and zerged has always been happening and what really made roaming worse is the warclaw.

Reverting cele to a more balanced state is not going to hurt much, it will just open up more diversity. After all we have been there before and cele buffs did not make roaming any better.

[CafPow.1542]

I won‘t believe 2 things.

1) roaming is dead

2) cele is dead

 

both sides seem to be overdramatic again.

[H K.4057]

The celestial nerf was not made with roaming in mind because roaming is not a supported playstyle. I don't think arguments that focus on how cele is needed for bad players to have fun roaming in wvw is going to sway ANET. I personally think that people are overreacting to the nerfs and the actual affect isn't going to be that dramatic for the average player.

42 minutes ago, Medusa.7346 said:

The rest of us - the MAJORITY of players - are casual gamers who loved dipping our toes in WvW from time to time. Celestial in its current form gives us the tools to survive just long enough, as roamers, to escape the guild blobs intent on hunting solo players down - if we're quick. It gives us a chance to at least escape from those griefer types, or frustrate them enough that they go hunt down someone else. 

Nerf celestial and you'll kill roaming for good. The game mode is already virtually unplayable, with AvA now full of toxic, awful people. Is this what you really want your game to become?

I disagree intensely. You don't survive guild blobs or gank groups by using cele. No amount of stats is going to help you tank 2-3 good roamers. Mobility, map knowledge, and general awareness are what keeps solo roamers alive. You also talk about "frustrating" people enough so they leave you alone. That indicates cele isn't great for the game as it discourages fights. And no, nerfing or even removing cele will not "kill roaming for good." I would challenge anyone who actually thinks the cele nerf is the end of the roaming to actually post a video of them roaming.

[Silinsar.6298]

1 hour ago, Medusa.7346 said:

The rest of us - the MAJORITY of players - are casual gamers who loved dipping our toes in WvW from time to time. Celestial in its current form gives us the tools to survive just long enough, as roamers, to escape the guild blobs intent on hunting solo players down - if we're quick. It gives us a chance to at least escape from those griefer types, or frustrate them enough that they go hunt down someone else.

The more you're focused on passive sustain, the more you're building to fight outnumbering your opponent, not to be outnumbered. Defensive stats don't scale well to defend against multiple opponents, but they provide the critical mass / sustain to not die quickly when you are outnumbering others and eventually beat them / get more reinforcements.

If you are playing outnumbered and in situations you are less likely to get help from other players than your opponents, it's in your best interest to end fights quickly - and most cele builds end up on the more defensive end of the spectrum.

Basically, there's two build philosophies: Build as little defense as possible (only as much as you need to fight certain specs), and as much offense as possible as you can manage, or build as little offense as you need (which is a lot less if you're bringing more players that coordinate focus fire) while being as survivable as possible.

Edited yesterday at 05:27 PM by Silinsar.6298

[XenesisII.1540]

Let's take this a step further back... the straight up addition of concentration and expertise to celestial, without even adjusting it's other stats which already had the most stats of any set, wasn't warranted in the first place. 🤷‍♂️

P.S Celestial didn't save roaming in the first place, it's not going to destroy it, people will just go back to using the older stats they were using before the change. If you need more tanky stats then run celestial with some minstrels, there's still runes, foods, oils, sigils, relics, infusions, to use to get extra concentration.

☕

Edited 22 hours ago by XenesisII.1540

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Let's take this a step further back... the straight up addition of concentration and expertise to celestial, without even adjusting it's other stats and already had the most stats of any set, wasn't warranted in the first place. 🤷‍♂️

P.S Celestial didn't save roaming in the first place, it's not going to destroy it, people will just go back to using the older stats they were using before the change. If you need more tanky stats then run celestial with some minstrels, there's still runes, foods, oils, sigils, relics, infusions, to use to get extra concentration.

☕

Considering it wasn't ask for before it was added was interesting when they did add it. The fact that they never stated why then is one note. The fact that people are ignoring that they actually noted this time that this tech would allow them to consider changing other sets and people are ignoring that is quite short sighted. 

[Codename T.2847]

Not much will change for roaming with cele getting nerfed dw about it : D A few outlier builds will be less aids to fight but you will still run into the same people on the same maps at the same time. Also, like Zyreva said, adding Warclaw arguably did a lot more damage than any other stat combination could ever dream about doing

[TheGrimm.5624]

On the offense versus defense build philosophy when planning on fighting outnumbered. Will disagree. Course you might note I don't complain about Willie either and mostly only about macro using perm invis thieves. Offensive builds when playing outnumbered is best set on builds that have options to run away. To counter both the hit and run roamer builds and give yourself time to double dodge thru an incoming zerg I side on the defensive builds.  

Just like roaming and thoughts its all one type of build, the same happens in large scale in people thinking again, its all one type of build. 

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

what really made roaming worse is the warclaw.

This.

Speed without build investment.

[XenesisII.1540]

10 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

On the offense versus defense build philosophy when planning on fighting outnumbered. Will disagree. Course you might note I don't complain about Willie either and mostly only about macro using perm invis thieves. Offensive builds when playing outnumbered is best set on builds that have options to run away. To counter both the hit and run roamer builds and give yourself time to double dodge thru an incoming zerg I side on the defensive builds.  

Just like roaming and thoughts its all one type of build, the same happens in large scale in people thinking again, its all one type of build. 

Also consider that most classes have mobility now thanks to the last 3 expansions with the new elite specs or weapons getting opened to all specs and the additional two new weapons for every class. Surviving hit and run builds don't require you to be super tanky when you have mobility to retreat also. Celestial toughness and vitality remain unchanged, so defensively the only thing changing is how long your boons last on you.

[TheGrimm.5624]

15 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Also consider that most classes have mobility now thanks to the last 3 expansions with the new elite specs or weapons getting opened to all specs and the additional two new weapons for every class. Surviving hit and run builds don't require you to be super tanky when you have mobility to retreat also. Celestial toughness and vitality remain unchanged, so defensively the only thing changing is how long your boons last on you.

And it removes more punching power with the expertise removal. That's where I see it hitting roamers and havocs that might try and push in an out of zergs.

[XenesisII.1540]

12 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

And it removes more punching power with the expertise removal. That's where I see it hitting roamers and havocs that might try and push in an out of zergs.

For longer fights, the condition focused builds will just go back to trailblazer or dire anyways.

There just needs to be sacrifices for builds, if you want to hit hard well you're going to have to run glassy, if you want to run super tank well you will have to hit like a wet noodle. I don't care for jack of all trades arguments, there's more than enough stat combinations to build those type of builds, it doesn't need to be on one nice neat set.

Edited 22 hours ago by XenesisII.1540

[coro.3176]

Just now, XenesisII.1540 said:

For longer fights, the condition focused builds will just go back to trailblazer or dire anyways.

There are very few builds that can actually function with full-condi stats.

There's too much cleanse in the game for it. You either need to be applying an absurd amount of condi constantly, or else full-bursting high stacks of burn, and then you're just a power build with extra steps.

Everyone else needs some power/precision/ferocity so they can get damage in vs heavy cleansers (i.e. any fight with a support build near it)

[XenesisII.1540]

Just now, coro.3176 said:

There are very few builds that can actually function with full-condi stats.

There's too much cleanse in the game for it. You either need to be applying an absurd amount of condi constantly, or else full-bursting high stacks of burn, and then you're just a power build with extra steps.

Everyone else needs some power/precision/ferocity so they can get damage in vs heavy cleansers (i.e. any fight with a support build near it)

And celestial is still viable for that, it loses expertise which means nothing since the game has so many cleanses as you stated, condition damage remains the same.

There's runes that still give 50% durations to certain conditions. Plenty of stuff to get extra expertise like concentration.

The game was playable before the celestial change in 2021. People say they want diverse builds but then constantly run back to meta and celestial builds.

🤷‍♂️

[coro.3176]

1 minute ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

And celestial is still viable for that, it loses expertise which means nothing since the game has so many cleanses as you stated, condition damage remains the same.

There's runes that still give 50% durations to certain conditions. Plenty of stuff to get extra expertise like concentration.

The game was playable before the celestial change in 2021. People say they want diverse builds but then constantly run back to meta and celestial builds.

🤷‍♂️

yeah, it'll be fine.

But if people want diverse builds, some other things need a good slap: Willbender, Harb, and all the annoying perma-stealth thief builds, to name a few

[lotus.5672]

but i thought cele killed roaming 🤔

[XenesisII.1540]

3 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

yeah, it'll be fine.

But if people want diverse builds, some other things need a good slap: Willbender, Harb, and all the annoying perma-stealth thief builds, to name a few

I totally agree.

[CafPow.1542]

I say that cele will still be strong on ele. Since i play it i might just coping but hear me out:

ele works great in sustain cause direct heals and a looooot of cleansing.

the boon generation is not affected, only the diration which nerfs it a little but i don’t think it breaks it’s neck. And if you rrrrreeeaaally need more boon duration, get relic of herald and gain 400 for free. (Which is almost cele).

as said: already a lot of possibilities to cope with the nerf.

now this is specifically ele which goes well with celestial just by design. Other cele builds might suffer harder. But honestly on a lot of builds, celestial is just overkill. Like willys and harbs. They both can fo superdecend (or even better) on other stats imo.

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, Medusa.7346 said:

It's not warranted at all. I'm guessing the devs saw a few people whining about it on the forums/Reddit - most likely the same people who whined until WvW was removed and replaced with AvA. AvA isn't fun for roamers. In fact, the only people who like the new system are those in organized guilds who treat the game like a job (the perennially online types) and those who enjoy griefing others, and have found either a broken build or a third-party program that allows them to do so.

The rest of us - the MAJORITY of players - are casual gamers who loved dipping our toes in WvW from time to time. Celestial in its current form gives us the tools to survive just long enough, as roamers, to escape the guild blobs intent on hunting solo players down - if we're quick. It gives us a chance to at least escape from those griefer types, or frustrate them enough that they go hunt down someone else. 

Nerf celestial and you'll kill roaming for good. The game mode is already virtually unplayable, with AvA now full of toxic, awful people. Is this what you really want your game to become?

The problems you've listed have nothing to do with gear, but rather map awareness.  1-2 extra seconds of protection wouldn't save you from a zerg, nor in most cases is expertise going to either. You're trying to stop yourself from getting run over by a train by wearing a bulletproof vest.

Most players will die before their boons expire, and others die because they fail to remember to put them up.  To survive a accidental zerg encounter, the relevant time period is about 3-5 seconds, and some of this is covered by dodges. After this point, it is merely about killing or driving away whatever people that insist on chasing and then it becomes normal roaming again. If anything, power builds are actually better at this anyways when it comes to quickly reducing the amount of chasers.

The real problem is a lot of builds posted are duelist builds, and not balanced WvW builds. Many cele builds in particular, are designed by many to kill 1 person while tanking any adds, wearing them all through attrition.  If you notice those bunker builds that expect you to run into their little circle, then those are the builds I'm talking about. These are often completely non functional when trying to evade zergs or dealing with very outnumbered situations. These are also the players that frequently get eaten alive in cloud vs cloud situations too when players have no incentive to face you directly and then salt whisper afterwards.

So if you don't like being blobbed down then you just have to make sacrifices for mobility or other disengage tools, or stability. This of course is a trade off very few people understand at all, so I don't really blame people for not knowing this.  But point is, Cele or not, if you don't prepare for these situations, you will die. Sure, you might barely get away sometimes and see that as a norm, but rest assured, it has nothing to do with you, but rather the zerg either ignoring you, or their gankers being subpar. Even some zergs don't know how to do damage after all.

tl;dr Plenty of Cele builds with decent mobility will be fine. The key to Cele has always been finding a way to boost its low power and condition damage via flat damage increases, as well as maximizing  sustain mechanics that scale with healing power. The aim of the nerfs is mostly at large scale and having hybrid dps's with perma boons-- Anet does not balance around small scale.

Also if you get ganked by a zerg, you get ganked by a zerg. It means approximately nothing (rounding down). No matter how carefully you play in Gw2, you will die occasionally and you just have to accept that.

Finally as a Cele you will still farm a lot of glass cannons that are either too or not aggressive enough for free, so roaming will not be dead in any case.

Edited 20 hours ago by ArchonWing.9480

[coro.3176]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

the boon generation is not affected, only the diration which nerfs it a little but i don’t think it breaks it’s neck. And if you rrrrreeeaaally need more boon duration, get relic of herald and gain 400 for free. (Which is almost cele).

Relic of the Herald - 25 con per stack, 10 stacks. How are you getting 400 out of that?

[Twilightzone.7452]

we thought about it and the answer is still no. If anything why should anet listen to a few people posting on the forums/reddit to not nerf it?

[XenesisII.1540]

Just now, Twilightzone.7452 said:

we thought about it and the answer is still no.

Who is "we"? 🤔

Just now, Twilightzone.7452 said:

If anything why should anet listen to a few people posting on the forums/reddit to not nerf it?

By the same token, why should they listen to you and whomever is your "we" posting on the same forums? 🤕

Don't worry they only listen to the secret discord anyways. 😏

[Riba.3271]

Do not worry, this was well-thought decision considering amount of threads we had about celestial in past couple years

[Twilightzone.7452]

8 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Who is "we"? 🤔

Sorry I did what Archon taught me and that is not to really read the Forums and just post someone close enough. "We" in the case pretending to be Anet