PERFECT example of why NOT TO DELETE celestial stat

[flyingplanet.6912]

You notice the increase in amount of nerf thread for thief and willbenders after you announce cele stat nerf?
Do you think they will stop this after you delete cele then thief and willbenders? Probably not because now I am seeing even more increase in oneshot mirages and perma-boon immortal tempest (they don't even need cele stat) in wvw roaming. Yep next target is likely to be these builds to people who can't handle even thieves and willbenders.   
Look anet, they want you to spoon feed them. If you give them what they want, they will cry for more, just like how pve grinders cry when boss fight is even slightly hard to finish. 
IF YOU REALLY WANT CELE STAT TO BE CONTAINED, roll-back the nerf you did to scourge and spellbreaker boon-rip skills. That's all you need. Answer is right there. Why do you not realize this? The problem will be solved in one patch. 

[Cyninja.2954]

Thief nerf threads have been around since the games launch.

Willbender nerf threads have been around since the elite specialization was added.

I did notice a lot of troll "nerf xyz" threads and giving in to the trolls is just as much a reason not to sway course.

[Dawdler.8521]

Sounds like a perfect example of why to delete celestial.

No celestial, no complaints about celestial.

[CafPow.1542]

11 hours ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

immortal tempest

So when i die, do i fill up a bug report?

11 hours ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

Look anet, they want you to spoon feed them. If you give them what they want, they will cry for more, just like how pve grinders cry when boss fight is even slightly hard to finish. 

I think it’s super silly to believe the only reason for nerfs and buffs is the crying in the forums.

we are not that important infact, i doubt they consider our „feedback“ at all, but if they do the impact is miniscule.

11 hours ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

IF YOU REALLY WANT CELE STAT TO BE CONTAINED, roll-back the nerf you did to scourge and spellbreaker boon-rip skills. That's all you need. Answer is right there. Why do you not realize this? The problem will be solved in one patch. 

True tho, even go further and buff it. This also counters boonballs better.

but they don’t want that. Infact they implemented a brand-new thing (extirpate) only to delete it 2 months latet. It’s like the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand does.

but it has nothing (i repeat: nothing!) to do with celestial.

Edited September 29 by CafPow.1542

[ArchonWing.9480]

12 hours ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

You notice the increase in amount of nerf thread for thief and willbenders after you announce cele stat nerf?
Do you think they will stop this after you delete cele then thief and willbenders? Probably not because now I am seeing even more increase in oneshot mirages and perma-boon immortal tempest (they don't even need cele stat) in wvw roaming. Yep next target is likely to be these builds to people who can't handle even thieves and willbenders.   

Wait, so "immortal" build exist without Cele, wouldn't that solve the Thief/WB problem?

So by your argument there really is no problem.

Also how does concentration and expertise save you from one shot builds? Are you saying they'll time it so perfectly they'll hit you in that few second window when you don't have boons? The thing saves you from one shot is toughness and to a lesser degree healing powe,  all of which a typical power build doesn't have.,  which aren't going anywhere.

Edited September 29 by ArchonWing.9480

[igmolicious.5986]

6 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Wait, so "immortal" build exist without Cele, wouldn't that solve the Thief/WB problem?

So by your argument there really is no problem.

Also how does concentration and expertise save you from one shot builds? Are you saying they'll time it so perfectly they'll hit you in that few second window when you don't have boons? The thing saves you from one shot is toughness and to a lesser degree healing powe,  all of which a typical power build doesn't have.,  which aren't going anywhere.

I think the number of "immortal" cele builds is probably less or equal to than the amount of "immortal" (non-cele) power willbender, power staff/x spellbreaker, permastealth thief, and trailblazer harbinger builds, personally. That said, I don't disagree with removing concentration and expertise from celestial, and truly don't think it will even effect MOST builds, since the sustain on most of the tougher celestial builds comes from the build itself having good healing sustain, condition cleanse, and stunbreak availability. The concentration loss might cause some issues with certain builds, since it may be harder to upkeep things like perma protection, resistance, or resolution on those, but there are plenty of builds that can keep at least some those up just fine without concentration. I still say the cele nerf is "balancing" the wrong thing (stats, rather than builds), but when enough people with a big audience complain...

[Tula.6021]

Only needed reason to nerf celestial:

• Cele is fun. (Cele meta is best meta for wvw zerging that ever existed and will exist)

nuff said

[Codename T.2847]

39 minutes ago, Tula.6021 said:

Only needed reason to nerf celestial:

• Cele is fun. (Cele meta is best meta for wvw zerging that ever existed and will exist)

nuff said

Oh hell naw

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I do get what the OP is talking about.  The issue with nerfing stats in general is that the stats themselves largely have build and profession specific applications.  My chief complaint being that Ele in WvW has been balanced around having Celestial, and without it suffers a heavy nerf that other professions don't.

Throughout this whole week, I've been running a Trailblazer Harbinger.  The thing is nuts,  I've been winning 1v2 and 1v3 fights easily, and I know that the skill ceiling is lower this week, but the sheer amount of sustain and oppressive conditions I'm throwing out is insane.  Now, Celestial Harbingers exist, sure, but the extra stats are far from necessary for the build.  Even with no boon duration on Traiblazer, I still have high stability uptime, high protection uptime, and permanent quickness/fury while in shroud.  Don't need much healing power when I have 3000 armor and 30k health.  I lose the power/precision/ferocity, but I gain more condition damage and that is where all my damage is coming from anyway.

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

That said, I don't disagree with removing concentration and expertise from celestial, and truly don't think it will even effect MOST builds, since the sustain on most of the tougher celestial builds comes from the build itself having good healing sustain, condition cleanse, and stunbreak availability.

Yep, not to mention most players never had good enough uptime to maximize what is being nerfed-- but they're already spelling doom in scenarios that doesn't even require you to maximize uptime-- namely vs builds that try to kill you in one hit, or typically in a few seconds (but gets called one shot anyways)

In a sense, one shot builds have generally been the greatest threat to many cele builds because they attempt to make the fight only a few seconds. Cele builds generally want longer fights because the stats advantage adds up over time with the other things you mention. So fights vs one shot builds generally have always minimized the effectiveness of concentration simply because well, boons are up or they are not in a few seconds. A stronger argument could be made for expertise if you want to slow them down or kill them. But in any case, these fights come down to using your active defenses to negate the one shot and outsustain them-- naturally this is the worst case scenario for people that can't dodge or use said active defenses.

I mean, I'm not talking kitten here; I don't like to dodge myself. I also don't really like fighting things that try to obliterate you in a few seconds.  But they should be able to play the game too.

Now the prevalence of one shot builds has somewhat declined since the 2020 nerfs, and such a nerf favored more Cele use after. Some revisionists argue it was because of the conc/expertise and while that was a factor, is certainly not the whole story.

My problem with cele nerf complaints such as the OP, is that they really don't know what they're complaining about, nor do they understand where the nerf was targeted at. Instead the complaints revolve around insecurities towards other people "crying for more nerfs" and their own inability to deal with scenarios where their build is somewhat weak to but they don't understand. So they're not really complaining about Cele being nerfed, or a playstyle is being removed, but rather someone is going to kill them in WvW (oh no!).  But the extra weird part is the awareness that there are hard to kill builds that aren't cele, so ....what?

 

Rest assured, people's failure to even understand their own builds is just not part of the equation.

Though it is a sign of builds in general are so power crept that people don't need to understand them either-- just copy/paste from metabattle and get a working build.

As for myself, yes I think Cele should be nerfed, and there are only 2 non zerg builds I run that aren't cele lol-- and most people could guess what they are, since they have plenty of annoying tools to survive with.

  

5 hours ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

I still say the cele nerf is "balancing" the wrong thing (stats, rather than builds), but when enough people with a big audience complain...

Well, it's a cycle of blame where people will blame cele stats, and others will blame the builds; incidentally the nerfs are just targeted at large scale, so it missed people entirely and just happened to impact them. So if the nerfs don't make sense, that's why-- collateral damage I guess.

So it comes with doubt they listen to complains as there is usually a complaint about thief or willbender on the front page.  It seems devs are just balancing around what they partake in, and that is overwhelmingly in zergs.

Edited Sunday at 06:35 PM by ArchonWing.9480

[Chrome.9841]

Celestial stats will still be there. It is still the best stat combine without expertise and concentration that gives you considerable power + thoughness + enough condition damage to 2k+ damage tick. 

Also even if they remove celestial stats, there are still a lot of annoying stat combos. Game's main issue is the stack cap of might and side stats.

I have personally tested full minstrel stats + durability rune catalyst; with 25 stacks of might uptime, almost perma quickness, perma protection... I was able to beat many high rank players.

So if they put some caps for some boons and the side stats (like boon duration, condition duration); to be more clear: Putting a cap for might that you can't have more than 10 stacks at WvW or you cant have more than %20 boon/condi duration time, they can solve many problems without nerfing different stat combos one by one. (Numbers are not serious just to give some examples)

[alain.1659]

1 hour ago, Chrome.9841 said:

Celestial stats will still be there. It is still the best stat combine without expertise and concentration that gives you considerable power + thoughness + enough condition damage to 2k+ damage tick. 

Also even if they remove celestial stats, there are still a lot of annoying stat combos. Game's main issue is the stack cap of might and side stats.

I have personally tested full minstrel stats + durability rune catalyst; with 25 stacks of might uptime, almost perma quickness, perma protection... I was able to beat many high rank players.

So if they put some caps for some boons and the side stats (like boon duration, condition duration); to be more clear: Putting a cap for might that you can't have more than 10 stacks at WvW or you cant have more than %20 boon/condi duration time, they can solve many problems without nerfing different stat combos one by one. (Numbers are not serious just to give some examples)

I respectfully disagree. There are some specs that do not really function well, and an overall change like this would be a huge blow to them completely. Balancing professions and traits individually is better in this case. Otherwise it would destroy already suffering builds and would force everyone to play the same builds altogether.  

You are exactly correct about annoying stat combos. Although the celestial nerf makes sense, it would've been better to balance the professions first. After the cele nerf I think we will be seeing even more horrid builds with already existing stat combinations. 

[Chrome.9841]

3 minutes ago, alain.1659 said:

Balancing professions and traits individually is better in this case.

I actually thought about this at first but there's a major issue with that. For example willbender spec's itself is actually not that strong but with core traits, its getting a lot of boons, crit rate, cleanse, stab etc.. If they nerf core traits, then other specs will suffer. Thats why i thought putting some caps would be a better solution. 

[alain.1659]

31 minutes ago, Chrome.9841 said:

I actually thought about this at first but there's a major issue with that. For example willbender spec's itself is actually not that strong but with core traits, its getting a lot of boons, crit rate, cleanse, stab etc.. If they nerf core traits, then other specs will suffer. Thats why i thought putting some caps would be a better solution. 

Well I was thinking about the exact same thing. Due to willbender balance problem, other specs are suffering. But cap would also hurt them. Adjusting willbender would be the best option in my opinion. 

 

Although about overall boons you are also right. Permanent boon uptime should not be a thing. It became too common for nearly all professions.

 

 

[Jobber.6348]

Celestial needed to be nerfed because it affected all walks of WvW, not just roaming. Zerging is also affected by Cele as much as smallscale and roaming.

That's the bigger picture issue Cele is contributing to. It's time has finally come.

Thief and Willbender will finally get scrutiny when Cele nerfs see a rise in dominance from them. Have to pray an Anet dev gets bullied by a gank guild and they nerf it out of spite lol.

If you ask me, the entire issue with Thief is SA buffed to removed Condis upon entering AND exiting stealth. It's too much condi removal which removed their previous weakness to it.

Willbender is just powercreep. Willbender is just the more flashy one but every EoD spec has been obnoxious in their own way at some point. Vindicator, Harbinger and Catalyst especially, are runner ups to the degenerative experience that Willbender represents. Especially the stupid 1200 free stat Death Magic Harbingers with perma quickness and 5 CC chains. (600 Toughness 300 Condi 300 Power AND pulsing Protection from Death Magic is nuts for how easy it is to upkeep by applying conditions.)

Edited Tuesday at 12:01 AM by Jobber.6348

[Codename T.2847]

19 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Celestial needed to be nerfed because it affected all walks of WvW, not just roaming. Zerging is also affected by Cele as much as smallscale and roaming.

That's the bigger picture issue Cele is contributing to. It's time has finally come.

Thief and Willbender will finally get scrutiny when Cele nerfs see a rise in dominance from them. Have to pray an Anet dev gets bullied by a gank guild and they nerf it out of spite lol.

If you ask me, the entire issue with Thief is SA buffed to removed Condis upon entering AND exiting stealth. It's too much condi removal which removed their previous weakness to it.

Willbender is just powercreep. Willbender is just the more flashy one but every EoD spec has been obnoxious in their own way at some point. Vindicator, Harbinger and Catalyst especially, are runner ups to the degenerative experience that Willbender represents. Especially the stupid 1200 free stat Death Magic Harbingers with perma quickness and 5 CC chains. (600 Toughness 300 Condi 300 Power AND pulsing Protection from Death Magic is nuts for how easy it is to upkeep by applying conditions.)

EoD was a mistake

[Kulvar.1239]

On 9/28/2024 at 9:47 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Sounds like a perfect example of why to delete celestial.

No celestial, no complaints about celestial.

So your solution is to Concord the game so nobody can complain?

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

So your solution is to Concord the game so nobody can complain?

Was there celestial in Concord?

[Mike.3196]

On 9/28/2024 at 12:10 PM, flyingplanet.6912 said:

You notice the increase in amount of nerf thread for thief and willbenders after you announce cele stat nerf?
Do you think they will stop this after you delete cele then thief and willbenders? Probably not because now I am seeing even more increase in oneshot mirages and perma-boon immortal tempest (they don't even need cele stat) in wvw roaming. Yep next target is likely to be these builds to people who can't handle even thieves and willbenders.   
Look anet, they want you to spoon feed them. If you give them what they want, they will cry for more, just like how pve grinders cry when boss fight is even slightly hard to finish. 
IF YOU REALLY WANT CELE STAT TO BE CONTAINED, roll-back the nerf you did to scourge and spellbreaker boon-rip skills. That's all you need. Answer is right there. Why do you not realize this? The problem will be solved in one patch. 

So your saying players aren't good and need a crutch stat to carry them. Instead of them learning the game and learning to dodge certain skills. And this thread cries cele player

[alain.1659]

8 hours ago, Mike.3196 said:

So your saying players aren't good and need a crutch stat to carry them. Instead of them learning the game and learning to dodge certain skills. And this thread cries cele player

I am sorry but celestial does not mean low skill. Some specs work with celestial really well and it is quite fun to play a jack of all build if you are alone. And there are players who have physical challenges and need to use bunker/cele builds to play the game. Connection issues, gaming system etc are all addiditonal factors. 

 

Ps: I am all for removing durations from cele stats. I just wanted to respectfully remind you that there are other players with different tastes and issues. 

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

3 hours ago, alain.1659 said:

I am sorry but celestial does not mean low skill. Some specs work with celestial really well and it is quite fun to play a jack of all build if you are alone. And there are players who have physical challenges and need to use bunker/cele builds to play the game. Connection issues, gaming system etc are all addiditonal factors. 

 

Ps: I am all for removing durations from cele stats. I just wanted to respectfully remind you that there are other players with different tastes and issues. 

While I fundamentally agree that one should make the game as accessible as possible to people with disabilities. Simply having an "easy mode" stat is not the solution, particularly in competitive play. It only incentivises players who don't have any accessibility requirements into using it as it becomes the most optimal way to win.

I also agree that removing the concentration and expertise is a good starting point. It allowed certain builds to have a relatively low risk to reward playstyle, particularly when played by competent players.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 9/28/2024 at 8:10 PM, flyingplanet.6912 said:

You notice the increase in amount of nerf thread for thief and willbenders after you announce cele stat nerf?
Do you think they will stop this after you delete cele then thief and willbenders? Probably not because now I am seeing even more increase in oneshot mirages and perma-boon immortal tempest (they don't even need cele stat) in wvw roaming. Yep next target is likely to be these builds to people who can't handle even thieves and willbenders.   
Look anet, they want you to spoon feed them. If you give them what they want, they will cry for more, just like how pve grinders cry when boss fight is even slightly hard to finish. 
IF YOU REALLY WANT CELE STAT TO BE CONTAINED, roll-back the nerf you did to scourge and spellbreaker boon-rip skills. That's all you need. Answer is right there. Why do you not realize this? The problem will be solved in one patch. 

If anything, I've noticed the opposite: thief forums have been dead since the cele nerf announcement. 

As for cele stats themselves: it doesn't need boon & condi duration (never did need it in the first place), and cele has a niche for anyone that wants a hybrid build with some sustain. Like seriously, try making a build focussed on power, condi damage, healing power and vitality on a low health pool class without using cele stats, it's an outright pain to get the right balance of stats without taking gear that wastes stats on things you don't need because the right stat combos simply don't exist. That in and of itself justifies the existence of cele gear, unless they want to start introducing more stat combos from PvP amulets to the rest of the game. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Jugglemonkey.8741