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Posted

Hey all

I know ele is hard but I'm just getting dunked on in most PvP/WvW fights vs a few other players or in 1v1. Daredevils delete me, willbenders mow me down like grass, virtuoso's explode me, it's ugly. I currently play celestial gear still because I was hoping for some training wheels so I can stay alive long enough to learn something and been using Weaver sword/dagger but it's made no difference. I am getting slowly to the point where I am afraid of seeing other players because I just anticipate being destroyed.

Are there any eles out there who can advise me on some good tricks and a tips for staying alive that don't require an IQ of 200? I love the vibe and feel of this class and I wanna get better at it but it's so brutal out there that I'm afraid I'll just quit before getting there if I don't find some way to deal.

Thanks in advance

Posted

I guess it depends on what you'd like to play.  The 'training wheels' ele build, at least in pvp, is this one:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAs2lZwWYeMFWJOWP/tdA-D6YfGJoA6VCYz/DAA

Scepter lets you stay in range so you're never in much danger while attacking.  If a wb/thief/mesmer jumps you, immediately switch to earth to become immune to crit damage.  You also have a 'panic button' from obsidian flesh.  Tbh, you won't win much at higher levels with this build.  But it should carry you a bit at lower levels.  Try to stick to team fights, since this build does a lot of aoe damage while also giving you and your allies boons/heals from the fire auras.  Also try to avoid actually using your heal signet, since it will stop the 'heal while attacking' thing it does.  Use/consume your fire auras to heal and cleanse conditions.

If you want to take it one step further, the 'condition auramancer tempest' build is one step up.  You can find it on metabattle: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Condition_Auramancer

It has the benefit of using D/D, which I guess is the meta weapon for ele in pvp right now.  So you'll be able to use those weapons when you feel ready to switch to the meta cata build.

 

  • Like 2
Posted

Before the cele nerf I used to run sword/dagger weaver, too.  The way you stay alive depends a lot on your build.  You can pick traits for either condition cleanses, barrier generation, or evasion.  In my old build, I went with cleansing traits (3-2-2 on weaver), but I also equipped Stone Resonance and Twist of Fate.  Doing this gave me plenty of barrier and plenty of evades.  If you aren't worried about conditions and want more barrier, you can take bolstered elements for protection and a third use of stone resonance.

For the openener, I would sit in Earth/Fire so I could use Lava Skin for stability/barrier, but also Earthen Vortex to dodge incoming attacks.  It is important to know where your weapon evades are (earth 2, water 2, air 5) as well as where your CC is (Earth 4, Air 5, Earth/Air 3).  One of the skills I found strangely useful for surviving was Primordial Stance, since when combined with Lava Skin it creates a lot of ambient counter-pressure that muscles through aegis and blinds easily.  Counter-pressure is also important for survival, since it will dissuade enemy attacks if they start getting too much of a beating.  

I won't lie: thief is the worst matchup for this setup.  Only a mediocre thief will fall to your blade.  All of the others can fight endlessly or just kill you quickly.  

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

I always like to play cele tempest with leadership runes and double dagger.

fire with cleansing auras thingy and earth with written in stone but you could also go diamond skin.

then i pick the tempest trait that my aura heals me. (With written in stone, every signet also gives an aura, aka heal + cleanse)

pair that up with relic of nayos.

Now every class will blast condis on you. If you imagine going into water, then press 3-4-4-5-overload-4 will give you 3 auras with 3 transmutes plus the extra clears from water 5….  You will heal crazy amounts. And that’s without activating any signet or overloading something else.

every overload is a stunbreak aswell and gives stability and protection.

you have CC in air and earth, and quite good mobility.

 

but the timing is crucial. When overloading, you are potentially exposed and vulnerable. If you are unsure, safe your lightning flash for getting away to finish or start and overload.

 

this build basically also works on catalyst but i don’t quite like cata. It’s super tanky and has an answer to everything, an enemy might throw at you but of course you have to know when to play what. And you are not a glasscannon. Tho the damage is still okay.

try it and if you feel pressured, go for shock aura + overloads on earth and water with the mentioned combos to stay alive. Eles can be super tanky monsters.

 

PS: concerning willys and thieves.

willy: you basically wanna instadodge when he jumps you especially when he uses his f3 (the circle), you want to interupt his strike combo. The f1 should also be dodged and his whirlattacks aswell. Bad willys will instamacro everything so you dodge it.

good willys (or good players in general) will always potentially outplay you. Pick a willy-fren and duel him until you get a feeling.

teef: when he vanishes, prepare to get jumped on. Count to 3 and then do someting. Shockaura is great, and starting and overload is too. This way, you punish the thief for engaging you. Also try to stand on a cliff / against a wall with your back so they can’t backstab you (for dagger-thiefs) or use line of sight for rifle-deadeyes.

generally willys and thieves are „no-fun-enemies“. Try to stay alive and get away from them, go into a tower and go somehwere else if possible. Cause even if you outplay them, you will never catch them. You will never win (aka kill) them, so don’t try. Never (never never never) chase them.

 

hope that was helpful.

 

/edit fat-finger typos

Edited by CafPow.1542
  • Like 2
Posted

oh on a second note:

i think weaver is one of the hardest specialisations to play, especially in pvp scenarios. If you need some training wheels, i'd really suggest contemplating to play tempest or catalyst.

and now, when i'm at home, i link my build (more or less)

https://guildjen.com/condition-tempest-roaming-build/

basically that but as mentioned with nayos-relic and full cele with leadership runes.

Also i use Signet of Stone which is better than aftershock in roaming situations in my opinion. (it has range, shorter CD and does basically the same, just not AoE which is not so much needed in most roaming situations.)

Posted
10 hours ago, Newholiday.8103 said:

I guess it depends on what you'd like to play.  The 'training wheels' ele build, at least in pvp, is this one:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAs2lZwWYeMFWJOWP/tdA-D6YfGJoA6VCYz/DAA

 

 

Thank you for this advice. I don't do PvP much anymore because it just seems awful to me. My experiences there were just flat out bad and turned me off the game. Perhaps with these builds, I can sustain long enough to learn the ropes a bit. Would you say conditions are the easier way of playing Ele then? Over strike damage? Many of our skills blend both, so it seemed hard for me to deduce exactly where I should focus.

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Before the cele nerf I used to run sword/dagger weaver, too.  The way you stay alive depends a lot on your build.  You can pick traits for either condition cleanses, barrier generation, or evasion.  In my old build, I went with cleansing traits (3-2-2 on weaver), but I also equipped Stone Resonance and Twist of Fate.  Doing this gave me plenty of barrier and plenty of evades.  If you aren't worried about conditions and want more barrier, you can take bolstered elements for protection and a third use of stone resonance.

For the openener, I would sit in Earth/Fire so I could use Lava Skin for stability/barrier, but also Earthen Vortex to dodge incoming attacks.  It is important to know where your weapon evades are (earth 2, water 2, air 5) as well as where your CC is (Earth 4, Air 5, Earth/Air 3).  One of the skills I found strangely useful for surviving was Primordial Stance, since when combined with Lava Skin it creates a lot of ambient counter-pressure that muscles through aegis and blinds easily.  Counter-pressure is also important for survival, since it will dissuade enemy attacks if they start getting too much of a beating.  

This is really useful! I often started too aggressively, I assume. Suppose I should have figured this one out myself since back in the olden days when I played guardian, I knew to defend first and then attack when their window of damage had passed. Start in earth, fire and toggle CC and evades to disrupt and turn the tables, worth a try. Might still fail with so many blocks and evades being available to those classes but it's better than just getting mowed.

5 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

hope that was helpful.

Yes it was, your post is something I will try out immediately. Weaver is brutally hard in PvP but that single subclass is why I came back after 10+ years. The battlemage idea with so many cool skills was just too awesome. And in PvE, it has been; god-tier unkillable. But in PvP, it's like juggling plates while a 2 meter tall brute is beating the kittens out of you with a giant hammer.

Tempest I have unlocked - catalyst not yet but I'm told it's strong with D/D - so I will try this out, use auras and D/D to protect and evade and try to endure their attacks.

I do want to say though, in general that this --

5 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

generally willys and thieves are „no-fun-enemies“. Try to stay alive and get away from them, go into a tower and go somehwere else if possible. Cause even if you outplay them, you will never catch them. You will never win (aka kill) them, so don’t try. Never (never never never) chase them.

-- is really bad. It is a terrible sign for any game with any level of competitive element when the question to "How can I beat/counter these classes?" is just "You don't, you flee because there is no case where you can win." It takes the wind out of my sails and makes me wonder why I bother learning this class if it's just objectively worse than some other classes.

At least we look cool, nobody can take that from us. And the Ele-Down-State-memes are top quality. 😄

Any other advice is always appreciated but this is all a good start for me to try.

Posted
25 minutes ago, Aedrion.6483 said:

Would you say conditions are the easier way of playing Ele then? Over strike damage?

The impression I've gotten is that most people feel like Condi is easier. That can be Player-dependent, though. I have a hard time wrapping my head around Condi, so much that I have an easier time going full power. 

On that note, Strike damage scales with Power, Precision and Ferocity, while Condi damage only with Condition Power and Expertise. If you're running Condi, you have more stats to allocate towards defense (vitality and toughness). 

Posted
1 hour ago, Aedrion.6483 said:

Yes it was, your post is something I will try out immediately. Weaver is brutally hard in PvP but that single subclass is why I came back after 10+ years. The battlemage idea with so many cool skills was just too awesome. And in PvE, it has been; god-tier unkillable. But in PvP, it's like juggling plates while a 2 meter tall brute is beating the kittens out of you with a giant hammer.

I play weaver in wvw as a glasscannon with staff in the backline. Awesome if you have meatshields.

else, i find it quite hard so i advice tempest.

unlocking catalyst is quick tho. EoD heropoints are easy.

1 hour ago, Aedrion.6483 said:

is really bad. It is a terrible sign for any game with any level of competitive element when the question to "How can I beat/counter these classes?" is just "You don't, you flee because there is no case where you can win." It takes the wind out of my sails and makes me wonder why I bother learning this class if it's just objectively worse than some other classes.

Ehh, depends on what is a „win“.

if he runs away from you, that’s a win for me. The thing is you prolly don’t catch them but they are outplayable. But i somewhat agree, it’s not the best. But you can deal with it at least.

Posted
42 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Ehh, depends on what is a „win“.

if he runs away from you, that’s a win for me. The thing is you prolly don’t catch them but they are outplayable. But i somewhat agree, it’s not the best. But you can deal with it at least.

Pretty much this. You fight for objectives. What's a win depends on your win conditions. If a ganker tries to kill you and you make them flee (or survive), that's a win.

Posted
4 minutes ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Pretty much this. You fight for objectives. What's a win depends on your win conditions. If a ganker tries to kill you and you make them flee (or survive), that's a win.

In PvP, sure, but I mostly play WvW now. PvP matchmaking is gruelling.

Posted
24 minutes ago, Aedrion.6483 said:

In PvP, sure, but I mostly play WvW now. PvP matchmaking is gruelling.

Unless you're dueling, this should stay the same. What were you trying to do when encountering the opponent? I'm using "objective" rather freely, one could also just say "goal". 

If you were trying to escort a yak, did you successfully manage to do so? Were you trying to kill a yak and managed to do so? Etc..

Unless your goal is specifically to kill the enemy, they're simply an obstacle. 

Posted

D/D Cele Cata is pretty survivable while having medium to good mobility, have you tried that? Or the Scepter+signets variation, also very good. 

Personally I dont think Weaver is in a good state for roaming right now due to the lack of mobility and poor range on sword. You can surely duel, but can't escape the incoming zergs. I only use it as glass canon DPS for zergs, with staff or spear (Fire/Air bolt to the heart).

 

Posted (edited)

As a weaver player I cam assure you that it is one of the worst possible options for ele. Only thing you can do is to go full bunker with cele stats yet you wont be able to catch or escape anyone. 

 

For learning the class you can play celestial cata or celestial core ele with dagger dagger. That will help you to move fast, tank a little dmg when you miss a dodge or get ambushed. 

For willbenders if your opponent is more skilled than you, sadly you cant do a lot. You cannot remove boons or chase them so they can reset whenever they want. 

Edited by alain.1659
Typo
Posted
8 hours ago, Aedrion.6483 said:

-- is really bad. It is a terrible sign for any game with any level of competitive element when the question to "How can I beat/counter these classes?" is just "You don't, you flee because there is no case where you can win." It takes the wind out of my sails and makes me wonder why I bother learning this class if it's just objectively worse than some other classes.

While it's true that in WvW roaming Willbender has been over the top for a while now, there's nothing wrong with some classes being better at something than others. Not every class has to be a great duelist. And in roaming, thieves have stealth which often lets them get away in any situation (and willbender has tons of mobility). There's always a difference if you're fighting in a 1v1, in smaller groups, or in big zergs in WvW. And in PvP it's generally a team game, but depending on the mode it's a mix of group fights and 1v1's on the side (or anything fluid inbetween). Each class has their own strengths and weaknesses, some shine more in different situations - also changes based on build. I'm more of a support player, and ele support is great in team fights or zergs through its aura shares, heals and tons of condition cleanse. For duels ele is very skill dependent, you have to put in a lot of effort to outplay some enemies (of course also depends on the enemy skill level) - but there will always be classes you have a harder time against, and some that can always get away due to the tools they have. Play what's fun to you, find a build that works for you, and improve your skill as you get more experience.

  • Thanks 1
Posted

Never stop holding keys; never stop the piano. Elem = Piano.
You're not a thief kiting for age and just relaxing while iniative regen, or shadow steps go off CD.


Damage and sustain come from many many sources on elem, you also have long CD for "mediocre" skills; so you may need some anticipation or prevention to loop important boons, to over heal, to constantly wash condition, to refill energy...  rather than waiting for a particular combo to be "ready".
Once you spin the wheel, even with attunements or skills on CD, you'll learn the value of each elements (and traits on swap) and skills, CD etc, and always find a solution; you'll have muscular reflex of many shorts combos to address the same issue. 
And that's how you'll build too : you shouldn't expect one trait or skill to be enough for one job; elem has good synergy, but they often need a stack of traits and skills, and concentration/expertise; you should spread boons, cleanse, etc all over. For example don't expect to be perma fury with only one trait or traitlane (arcane  or zephyr's boons, etc) like almost all other class  can do, because you won't.

It doesn't mean you should spam F1 > F2 > F3 > F4, 1 2 3 4 5 indifferently, or smash all utility skills at start, waste all CC ; but you shouldn't wait to be half dead or with chill/cripple/immo/10stack of torment to swap to water for example, water isn't a panic button, it is part of your rotation; or you shouldn't spam AA while waiting 10sec for a skill in current element while you could find other sustain or CC etc in an other one. 

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Unless your goal is specifically to kill the enemy, they're simply an obstacle. 

I get what you mean and in PvP and some WvW scenarios I agree that just driving them off is sufficient to call it a 'win' of sorts. But when push comes to shove, the core goal of PvP for players like me, isn't always to score points or even to win a match but to find challenge and success in fighting other players. Sometimes, I just want to beat the other guy. Hearing that in essence, it might be simply impossible to beat some classes will never be acceptable in my eyes. A duelling build should be able to beat other duellists, even if one demands more skill than the other.

17 hours ago, alain.1659 said:

As a weaver player I cam assure you that it is one of the worst possible options for ele. Only thing you can do is to go full bunker with cele stats yet you wont be able to catch or escape anyone. 

 

For learning the class you can play celestial cata or celestial core ele with dagger dagger. That will help you to move fast, tank a little dmg when you miss a dodge or get ambushed. 

For willbenders if your opponent is more skilled than you, sadly you cant do a lot. You cannot remove boons or chase them so they can reset whenever they want. 

It's a shame, isn't it? Weaver's concept is so damned cool. You weave the elements, get many flashy and awesome spells and wield a sword in melee like a megachad. I can't pinpoint what is lacking with it. It has evades, CC, mobility. I guess I'd argue what it lacks is the brute force required to drop somebody in melee before getting dropped itself. Especially when they are highly mobile.

I'm trying celestial D/D Cata atm, with investment into auras and signets to get the most amount of damage resistance. I could rant for hours about mobility being an element of power in games like this and that a class with absurd mobility is no different than a class with absurd power. When you fuse the two into one, well, that's Willbender for you I guess.

17 hours ago, Chyro.1462 said:

While it's true that in WvW roaming Willbender has been over the top for a while now, there's nothing wrong with some classes being better at something than others. Not every class has to be a great duelist.

Considering the wild variety of builds and specialisations that are on offer now, you'd expect that every class would be able to specialise into almost any role and compete. At launch, sure, what you say was the case and made sense. But now we have offensive guardians, supporting warriors, healing rangers and so on. The new rule seems to be 'If you build for it, you can do it at the cost of something else'. In this new design, having some classes still just lag behind others seems unfair. I have a guardian and an ele. I'd almost dare say that my guardian can do everything my ele can do, and in many cases, better.

15 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Never stop holding keys; never stop the piano. Elem = Piano.

Oh I know, I'm playing Bach's D Minor Partita while the other guy is just smashing his head into his keys. But that's ele life and it's why I actually love this class. A never-ending stream of skills where the challenge isn't necessarily to hold off on the big skills but to find where in your composition they work best and what flow clicks together the best. Very satisfying when it works.

I'm trying out D/D now because of its mobility and strong skills and also using the Earth skill line (+17% strike mitigation in melee and other goodies) instead of Air because I'd rather be alive and doing no damage, than dead and doing no damage. 😄

Edited by Aedrion.6483
Posted

Only thing weaver viablie in WvW is Fresh air Scepter/focus. Ur joining the ranks of one shot memes with other classes being more efficient at it. But you can still do so. Survival rate is eh. But its kill or be killed out there 😄

Posted
On 10/29/2024 at 7:00 AM, Aedrion.6483 said:

Thank you for this advice. I don't do PvP much anymore because it just seems awful to me. My experiences there were just flat out bad and turned me off the game. Perhaps with these builds, I can sustain long enough to learn the ropes a bit. Would you say conditions are the easier way of playing Ele then? Over strike damage? Many of our skills blend both, so it seemed hard for me to deduce exactly where I should focus.

This is really useful! I often started too aggressively, I assume. Suppose I should have figured this one out myself since back in the olden days when I played guardian, I knew to defend first and then attack when their window of damage had passed. Start in earth, fire and toggle CC and evades to disrupt and turn the tables, worth a try. Might still fail with so many blocks and evades being available to those classes but it's better than just getting mowed.

Yes it was, your post is something I will try out immediately. Weaver is brutally hard in PvP but that single subclass is why I came back after 10+ years. The battlemage idea with so many cool skills was just too awesome. And in PvE, it has been; god-tier unkillable. But in PvP, it's like juggling plates while a 2 meter tall brute is beating the kittens out of you with a giant hammer.

Tempest I have unlocked - catalyst not yet but I'm told it's strong with D/D - so I will try this out, use auras and D/D to protect and evade and try to endure their attacks.

I do want to say though, in general that this --

-- is really bad. It is a terrible sign for any game with any level of competitive element when the question to "How can I beat/counter these classes?" is just "You don't, you flee because there is no case where you can win." It takes the wind out of my sails and makes me wonder why I bother learning this class if it's just objectively worse than some other classes.

At least we look cool, nobody can take that from us. And the Ele-Down-State-memes are top quality. 😄

Any other advice is always appreciated but this is all a good start for me to try.

It's not necessarily a class counter though.  Sword weavers are countered by mobility.  You can't land your damage effectively against classes like thief and willbender that use hit and run burst.  So at best you are able to force a stalemate where they pay too much to finish the job but also don't allow you to finish them either unless you frustrate them enough that they get greedy and make an error.

Posted
9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It's not necessarily a class counter though.  Sword weavers are countered by mobility.  You can't land your damage effectively against classes like thief and willbender that use hit and run burst.  So at best you are able to force a stalemate where they pay too much to finish the job but also don't allow you to finish them either unless you frustrate them enough that they get greedy and make an error.

Agree about Sword and mobility, and it is obviously conflated with the extreme issues with stealth in WVW which is quite frankly ridiculous.

Posted

I run cele tempest, water, fire lines. Antitoxin runes, queen relic, doom and geomancer sigils. 

I do good enough for my needs. Willbender is annoying, because of infinite evades, blocks, mobility and heals. So is vindicator. Thief stealth spam is problematic no matter the build. Most mesmers die. Necros you keep at arms lenght and then grind them down. Rangers pewpew your magnetic aura and then you finish them off. Warriors are a free meal.

You are welcome.

  • Sad 1
Posted
On 10/31/2024 at 9:32 PM, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

 

I run cele tempest, water, fire lines. Antitoxin runes, queen relic, doom and geomancer sigils

 

I have this as second option for havocs / groups with aurashare. But i play with water runes i think.

good combat healer with solid damage that can be disroptive on hos own.

i feel when swapping water for earth it’s a little bit more selfish but this is also a good variant. I play this mostly with shouts instead of signets.

Posted

Hot take but i play a Hammer weaver build sometimes with Arcane/Water as my other two traits and its great. Lots of healing, and the hammer orbs punish anyone trying to melee me. Worst aspect is the mobility but add lightning flash and FGS and its better. Also super fun and relatively easy build as there are no dual skills you need to learn about.

Posted

Weaver can dodge all day if you slot Renewing Stamina, Invigorating Strikes, Evasive Arcana with Sigil of Energy. This+cele gear you won't get instantly deleted. You can play this like you're playing Dark Soul.

You should also sit in proper attunment whenever possible before any engagements. I use Sw/F, 90% of the time I sit on Fire/Air so I can Gale and start my burst combo in case I get jumped or vice versa.

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