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Posted

What if jalis stability road (inspired enforcement) functioned like underwater, it stays on the player in aoe? I like that design better. And the weakness condition gets applied each second when stability road pulses. 

For pvp as example weakness condition duration would then be 1 second per pulse and on initial attack (6hits, 6 seconds total). It's less instant cleansable then which is actually too easy done.

ps. make taunt on pull 1 second longer for pvp/wvw. And elite/heal cast time 50% faster.

Another random idea that popped up, Rite Of The Great Dwarf, whoever got turned in stone returns 50% of the incoming damage to the enemy player back. If you traited that condi effects too, works same.

Now this elite is more worth it using for different builds/more versatile overall useage. and 50% return of damage takens looks strong but it's quite averaged out. For example a 18k burst is already halved minimum by the buff into 9k, so 50% of that gets returned, 4,5k. 1/4th of og attack. And 40 energy isn't spammable on elites. + initial 1 second stability to the caster only.

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Posted (edited)

I like road. It actually gives this skill abit of reach. 

Expanding on some of your changes and adding in some ideas:

Forced Engagement:

30 Energy

Changed into a Stunbreak and AoE taunt. Taunts enemies within 400 radius and inflicts them with Weakness. 

Rite of the Great Dwarf: 

30 Energy

No longer a Stunbreak, but now grants Retaliation as a buff effect. Uses the legacy scaling of the old Retaliation boon. 

Vengeful Hammers:

No longer Heals per hit, instead grants Barrier per hit. 

Edited by Jobber.6348
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Posted
1 hour ago, Jobber.6348 said:

I like road. It actually gives this skill abit of reach. 

 

Well aside that allies tend to run out of it a lot and the effect becomes less helpfull and on land the combo field is lower. So that's Why I prefere how it works like the underwater, it's higher and more mobile useage with team. And from times you're forced to walk out it yourself even after freshly cast/effect gone then.

Posted

New ideas in addition to my earlier ones:

Rite of the Great Dwarf

Is now an Upkeep. Grants damage reduction to both Strike and Condition damage while active. Grants Retaliation state while active.

Inspiring Reinforcement

Is now the Elite. Summon a dome to protect your allies. 

Grants pulsing Stability in a 600 Radius around you. 5 pulses.

Lightning Field. 

The dome destroys projectiles. Lasts 5 seconds. 

Vengeful Hammer

Channel to guard against attacks. After blocking damage, a mist hammer strikes around you, inflicting Weakness and granting you Barrier. Damage and Barrier value increased for number of strikes blocked. 

Block: 2s.

Damage and Barrier increase per block:

Up to 50%, 5 attacks blocked. 

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Posted

Revenant stances are extremely limited nowadays. Their flow is ruined and with the horrible nerfs some are not really useful. You can make them work, true, but you would not survive in wvw/pvp scenarios. 

 

All old rev legends need an update. Class was not designed to survive with this condi/boon spam meta and this kind of mobility. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, alain.1659 said:

Revenant stances are extremely limited nowadays. Their flow is ruined and with the horrible nerfs some are not really useful. You can make them work, true, but you would not survive in wvw/pvp scenarios. 

 

All old rev legends need an update. Class was not designed to survive with this condi/boon spam meta and this kind of mobility. 

I'm all for classes having distinct weaknesses but it's abundantly clear that Revenant Legends were designed for a different state of Revenant than we have today.

The OG themeing of Revenant was essentially a multi-classer, a sort of call back to Gw1 style Energy system plus a Main and Sub class via Legends. They had short cooldowns balanced by Energy cost. Being able to multiclass like this meant their gameplay constantly switches as they switch Legends, something modern Revenant doesn't play into anymore. Modern Revenant is all about finding two complimentary Legends and playing the same playstyle. You can see immediately how forcing a playstyle on a Legend ill fitting of said style is going to be an issue. And that's not even starting to discuss 1 dimensionality of weapons. 

But let's adapt. If we have to adapt to the new way Revenant wants to be played, then the old Legends need to receive QoL or a revisit. 

Edited by Jobber.6348
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Posted (edited)

The only thing holding Jalis back is the stun break being stuck on rotgd. The massive unprotected cast time makes it terrible as a stunbreak. When an enemy lands a stun they almost always attempt to follow it up with burst damage. With jalis if you get stunned and immediately stunbreak you have 2 options: facetank the burst while trying to finish casting the skill and hoping they don't interrupt it with another cc or dodge to try to avoid the burst but that means you just spent 40 energy for a stunbreak with no other effects. Both options are absolutely abysmal.

Edited by ArthurDent.9538
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

I actually prefer the jails underwater UFO  of stability

Same as I suggested yes, it's more mobile for allies and yourself, on path they run out of it or you have to run out of it.

 

2 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

The only thing holding Jalis back is the stun break being stuck on rotgd. The massive unprotected cast time makes it terrible as a stunbreak. When an enemy lands a stun they almost always attempt to follow it up with burst damage. With jalis if you get stunned and immediately stunbreak you have 2 options: facetank the burst while trying to finish casting the skill and hoping they don't interrupt it with another cc or dodge to try to avoid the burst but that means you just spent 40 energy for a stunbreak with no other effects. Both options are absolutely abysmal.

aint the only thing, it needs some changes.

18 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

New ideas in addition to my earlier ones:

Rite of the Great Dwarf

Is now an Upkeep. Grants damage reduction to both Strike and Condition damage while active. Grants Retaliation state while active.

Inspiring Reinforcement

Is now the Elite. Summon a dome to protect your allies. 

Grants pulsing Stability in a 600 Radius around you. 5 pulses.

Lightning Field. 

The dome destroys projectiles. Lasts 5 seconds. 

Vengeful Hammer

Channel to guard against attacks. After blocking damage, a mist hammer strikes around you, inflicting Weakness and granting you Barrier. Damage and Barrier value increased for number of strikes blocked. 

Block: 2s.

Damage and Barrier increase per block:

Up to 50%, 5 attacks blocked. 

Even better idea yea then what I said, would like to see this implanted!

Stability around yourself, is it mobile if you move too? Otherwise maybe a 360 area that's mobile around yourself.

Because I can somehow see people in pvp/wvw whine about the projectile denial 600 radius field too.

(And no slow cast times anymore)

Edited by arazoth.7290
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Stability around yourself, is it mobile if you move too? Otherwise maybe a 360 area that's mobile around yourself.

That's the idea yea, along with the Dome. Would be like Rev version of the gyro dome from scrapper. Would probably be like Arch Spear which is an Elite that has an actual decent cooldown length plus a costly Energy cost to cast.

If the dome for 5s is too long then maybe yea, bad idea. Maybe not full anti projectile but simply a damage reduction for allies would be sufficient. 

 

Edited by Jobber.6348
Posted
4 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

That's the idea yea, along with the Dome. Would be like Rev version of the gyro dome from scrapper. Would probably be like Arch Spear which is an Elite that has an actual decent cooldown length plus a costly Energy cost to cast.

If the dome for 5s is too long then maybe yea, bad idea. Maybe not full anti projectile but simply a damage reduction for allies would be sufficient. 

 

ohhh, the upkeep still shared and grants barrier too? because they very likely won't make the effect more then the current 20%

Posted
4 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

That's the idea yea, along with the Dome. Would be like Rev version of the gyro dome from scrapper. Would probably be like Arch Spear which is an Elite that has an actual decent cooldown length plus a costly Energy cost to cast.

If the dome for 5s is too long then maybe yea, bad idea. Maybe not full anti projectile but simply a damage reduction for allies would be sufficient. 

 

if it's like the current cd on it, 15 seconds, then it's allright, otherwise pulsing weakness on it instead

Posted
On 10/30/2024 at 4:24 PM, ArthurDent.9538 said:

The only thing holding Jalis back is the stun break being stuck on rotgd. The massive unprotected cast time makes it terrible as a stunbreak. When an enemy lands a stun they almost always attempt to follow it up with burst damage. With jalis if you get stunned and immediately stunbreak you have 2 options: facetank the burst while trying to finish casting the skill and hoping they don't interrupt it with another cc or dodge to try to avoid the burst but that means you just spent 40 energy for a stunbreak with no other effects. Both options are absolutely abysmal.

Can you not cast and then stow your weapons?

Posted
28 minutes ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

Can you not cast and then stow your weapons?

You can but Rite of the Great Dwarf's been bugged since forever and you can't perform further actions until after the cast would have completed had it not been cancelled.

Which can be an alarmingly long time if you happen to be slowed. Even normally it's brutal, 1.25s is a pretty long time.

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Posted
8 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

Can you not cast and then stow your weapons?

Unless you finish the whole cast you don't get the damage reduction so you end up spending 40 energy on a stunbreak with no other benefits.

Posted
7 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

You can but Rite of the Great Dwarf's been bugged since forever and you can't perform further actions until after the cast would have completed had it not been cancelled.

Which can be an alarmingly long time if you happen to be slowed. Even normally it's brutal, 1.25s is a pretty long time.

Is that really a bug or the result of a channel cast? Iirc channels cannot be cancelled via stowing, which are things like Fire Ele Staff 5 and Channeled Vindi heals. You can dodge cancel these but stow cancelling is usually blocked. 

Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Is that really a bug or the result of a channel cast? Iirc channels cannot be cancelled via stowing, which are things like Fire Ele Staff 5 and Channeled Vindi heals. You can dodge cancel these but stow cancelling is usually blocked. 

Rite of the Great Dwarf isn't a channel, and is cancellable via stow or dodging. In either case, you cannot act until its cast would have finished.

The Vindi heal does not have that problem. It is stowable and gives you the ability to act immediately upon cancelling.
Meteor Shower is the same. You can even cancel it with a button like Burning Retreat.

The Mallyx stunbreak is the same way as Rite, but its cast time is short enough that it isn't noticeable unless you have Slow on you.

Anyways as far as topic goes, I think it's pretty unlikely they ever make roads mobile, strictly because of WvW. They unfortunately don't do skill functionality splits for game modes.

Bringing back a form of limited Retaliation is an interesting idea though.

Edited by Shagie.7612
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Posted
On 11/2/2024 at 12:29 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

 

The Mallyx stunbreak is the same way as Rite, but its cast time is short enough that it isn't noticeable unless you have Slow on you.

Anyways as far as topic goes, I think it's pretty unlikely they ever make roads mobile, strictly because of WvW. They unfortunately don't do skill functionality splits for game modes.

Bringing back a form of limited Retaliation is an interesting idea though.

cast times are a drag on dwarf stance elite/heal indeed.

Would be nice if roads was mobile though like underwater version, wvw shouldn't be the limiting factor for a mechanic.

And the retaliation would be indeed nice, since we once had it as boon, but should be now some baseline mechanic in it instead.

 

Posted (edited)
On 10/30/2024 at 4:24 PM, ArthurDent.9538 said:

The only thing holding Jalis back is the stun break being stuck on rotgd. The massive unprotected cast time makes it terrible as a stunbreak. When an enemy lands a stun they almost always attempt to follow it up with burst damage. With jalis if you get stunned and immediately stunbreak you have 2 options: facetank the burst while trying to finish casting the skill and hoping they don't interrupt it with another cc or dodge to try to avoid the burst but that means you just spent 40 energy for a stunbreak with no other effects. Both options are absolutely abysmal.

What if, just what if. You're not creative enough to use the skill properly.

It gets really tiring that people are pretending there is nothing for Jalis to make RotGD better. Let me help you:

* You get stunned in fresh Jalis, it's your fault for not using Inspiring Reinforcement properly. If you get stunned on road that's called being countered, that's just the reality of the game. Compensate with Vengeful Hammers.

* You get stunned in late Jalis, what's stopping you from switching legends and benefit from Shiro-Quickness/Mallyx-Slow to improve/protect RotGD? Stunned again? If you're anything than those two and not using Glaring Resolve, reap the consequences the decisions you made. The counterplay is fair, CC's do no damage and you decided to react instantly, use whatever other stunbreak you got and recover from past mistakes.

* You get stunned and have to switch into Jalis for stunbreak? You have no excuse to complain because; if you're not using Spirit Boon, you asked for it. You didn't use Glaring Resolve? Again, tough luck that was another option you neglected. Didn't use SotM for Barrier/Weakness on target hit? You're full glass and that's your decision to be this vulnerable, you have Inspiring Reinforcement to mitigate damage and CC, before you get stunned, use it instead of camping the past legend.

Jalis is good as it is and what we have is poor decision making and skill issues. It should stay as it is and at best, the very best have a reduced cast time to 1 second, 0.75 if ANET feels generous but 50% damage reduction is the best in the game and the fact that it's easily applicable in teamfights for enemies to not realize they lost half the damage of their burst is strong and not to be power crept.

 

Edited by Shao.7236
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

What if, just what if. You're not creative enough to use the skill properly.

It gets really tiring that people are pretending there is nothing for Jalis to make RotGD better. Let me help you:

* You get stunned in fresh Jalis, it's your fault for not using Inspiring Reinforcement properly. If you get stunned on road that's called being countered, that's just the reality of the game. Compensate with Vegenful Hammers.

* You get stunned in late Jalis, what's stopping you from switching legends and benefit from Shiro-Quickness/Mallyx-Slow to improve/protect RotGD? Stunned again? If you're anything than those two and not using Glaring Resolve, reap the consequences the decisions you made. The counterplay is fair, CC's do no damage and you decided to react instantly, use whatever other stunbreak you got and recover from past mistakes.

* You get stunned and have to switch into Jalis for stunbreak? You have no excuse to complain because; if you're not using Spirit Boon, you asked for it. You didn't use Glaring Resolve? Again, tough luck that was another option you neglected. Didn't use SotM for Barrier/Weakness on target hit? You're full glass and that's your decision to be this vulnerable, you have Inspiring Reinforcement to mitigate damage and CC, before you get stunned, use it instead of camping the past legend.

Jalis is good as it is and what we have is poor decision making and skill issues. It should stay as it is and at best, the very best have a reduced cast time to 1 second, 0.75 if ANET feels generous but 50% damage reduction is the best in the game and the fact that it's easily applicable in teamfights for enemies to not realize they lost half the damage of their burst is strong and not to be power crept.

 

That's why jalis has seen so "much" play in unranked/ranked and totally not tournaments or monthlies, stop throwing salt in your eyes for not seeing it, it isn't there by far.

 

Only useage is for stability road, inspiring reinforcements mostly in zergs and some pve content. It's pretty bad for having so underused, compared to the other 3, because it's overall not that good really

Edited by arazoth.7290
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Posted
3 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

That's why jalis has seen so "much" play in unranked/ranked and totally not tournaments or monthlies, stop throwing salt in your eyes for not seeing it, it isn't there by far.

 

Only useage is for stability road, inspiring reinforcements mostly in zergs and some pve content. It's pretty bad for having so underused, compared to the other 3, because it's overall not that good really

You need to learn about the philosophy behind the path of least resistance and why the "tournaments" and "monthly" are not a good way to measure of whether something sucks or not, because as everything mentioned above previously which I literally do and win doing so is already evidence there is so much nuance that you can't just say "people don't use it therefor bad".

Besides "my" view, let me remind you of that time when shortbow/staff+Jalis/Shiro was meta because of Rune of the Speed which they nerfed everything in the build before nerfing the Rune then literally nothing in the build changed since before they started reverting those nerfs for Jalis (Steadfeast Rejuvenation is the only thing that is still the way it was nerfed and SHOULD be reverted), this is proof that by design Jalis and even Shiro is fine as they are the way they work and the real issue may as well just be Anet doesn't understand how their game works by constantly nerfing Core options while a bunch of powercrept garbo anywhere else in the game keeps running rampant.

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Posted
3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

You need to learn about the philosophy behind the path of least resistance and why the "tournaments" and "monthly" are not a good way to measure of whether something sucks or not, because as everything mentioned above previously which I literally do and win doing so is already evidence there is so much nuance that you can't just say "people don't use it therefor bad".

Besides "my" view, let me remind you of that time when shortbow/staff+Jalis/Shiro was meta because of Rune of the Speed which they nerfed everything in the build before nerfing the Rune then literally nothing in the build changed since before they started reverting those nerfs for Jalis (Steadfeast Rejuvenation is the only thing that is still the way it was nerfed and SHOULD be reverted), this is proof that by design Jalis and even Shiro is fine as they are the way they work and the real issue may as well just be Anet doesn't understand how their game works by constantly nerfing Core options while a bunch of powercrept garbo anywhere else in the game keeps running rampant.

1 weird occurence compared how it normally is, doesn't count. Dwarf is just not there if any mode beside mats isn't really good, read what I wrote 

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Posted
4 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

1 weird occurence compared how it normally is, doesn't count. Dwarf is just not there if any mode beside mats isn't really good, read what I wrote 

You're not getting it, literally all it took for the build to not be "relevant" is changing rune of speed which a lot of other build used as well because it was OP. Everything else is practically the same since. All we can deduce is that the game is power crept and need to be toned down rather than changing/buffing things that been proven to be fine beforehand AND haven't changed at all since.

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Posted
3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

You're not getting it, literally all it took for the build to not be "relevant" is changing rune of speed which a lot of other build used as well because it was OP. Everything else is practically the same since. All we can deduce is that the game is power crept and need to be toned down rather than changing/buffing things that been proven to be fine beforehand AND haven't changed at all since.

What you're writing => it got carried into available state by a really OP piece "rune", once that factor that got nerfed/take out of the occasion it become useless.

So something that is not related how a stance is working made it "available" then nerfed and showed the real state of the stance how it works/is not working.

If 1 piece can be taken out of factor and it make a stance/utility for builds fall out in useless, it is the the piece taken out fault, it's the total package was carried. And this is even more the case when that factor , wasn't even related to dwarf stance itself, they did the right thing to show the big weaknesses in it.

So no, it seems you aren't ready to accept the truth yet/coping with it

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Anet doesn't understand how their game works by constantly nerfing Core options while a bunch of powercrept garbo anywhere else in the game keeps running rampant.

Basically the entire Revenant balance history in a nutshell.

Problem is A.

Nerf B C D E F G then finally nerf A and leave everything in a broken mess on the floor.

But wait my baby Guardian is not the top class? Time to gigabuff it weeeeeeeee

Reminder, there is still no bloody reason at all that Staff 5 needs a delay when damage has been removed from it.

There is no reason that Sword 4 should have such a long cast when damage was removed from it.

There is no reason Incensed Response should only be 5s when Herald is nerfed. 

Edited by Jobber.6348
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