Bava Nisos and the 'Gate' [SPOILER lore discussion]

[EdwinLi.1284]

Below will be spoilers to the current story. You are warned!

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I was expecting the titans to be dealt with a bit later in the storyline but even with their death, they can be "reforged" from what was said.

Either way it seems we are going to Bava Nisos next and the hints so far suggest a Gate into the Mist is active there and the Titan's actions here so far was to get the Gate open. This Gate also appears to be how the Titans manage to invade Bava Nisos in GW1 and wipe out the Mursaat in the city which is why Mabon sealed the City to prevent any titans from using this gate to enter Tyria.

We still do not know why a Gate into the Mist is located there but it seem that this Gate is maybe linked to the spot where the Foundry of Failed Creation is located from what the Titans have said. However, a bigger question remains being who is using the Foundry to create the Titans?

What is all your opinions about this development so far.

[Randulf.7614]

I mean the thread title is a bit of a spoiler, so warnings are a bit late 😉 

I do wonder if any remnant of the Mursaat may be behind it all. Or maybe "Godspawn" has a deeper meaning, although that seems a little odd if it's a god. The only god to be mentioned so far is Koda and Sorrow's "angry voice" (likely was Jormag) and I can't see any link there.

I wonder if that's it for the three Titans. I can't see us fighting them again, but Ura seemed underused to the point her story being over so soon would also be odd.

I guess the question rephrased is, if they are the Godspawn, who would fit as God of a Titan and not be sprung on as a random surprise?

[Squee.7829]

The Foundry of Failed Creations is in the Realm of Torment, and I suspect the gateway to it could be pretty much anywhere. There was one in the Ring of Fire Islands in the first Guild Wars, until that section of it erupted. So I doubt the location is of any importance other than maybe its inaccessibility.  It might also be one of the reasons the Mursaat were in Janthir, as they have an interest in keeping those gates closed. As for who is operating it, it could be any number of things. It apparently was a prison for really bad things at various points in history, and there's no telling what manner of angry beasties is housed there or even what it is now that the whole domain that housed the Foundry may have been changed by Kormir. All we can really know is that it still has the ability to make titans.

Edited November 21 by Squee.7829

[ThatOddOne.4387]

6 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I mean the thread title is a bit of a spoiler, so warnings are a bit late 😉 

I do wonder if any remnant of the Mursaat may be behind it all. Or maybe "Godspawn" has a deeper meaning, although that seems a little odd if it's a god. The only god to be mentioned so far is Koda and Sorrow's "angry voice" (likely was Jormag) and I can't see any link there.

I wonder if that's it for the three Titans. I can't see us fighting them again, but Ura seemed underused to the point her story being over so soon would also be odd.

I guess the question rephrased is, if they are the Godspawn, who would fit as God of a Titan and not be sprung on as a random surprise?

Waiting Sorrow has an interesting line in the recent story update; "You are not gods. You are not even of the gods." Or something to that effect.

Because of this, I feel confident saying no gods are (currently) involved with the story. Though it is yet again evidence of ArenaNet changing their approach regarding how the gods are referred as (Not using 'Human Gods' and just going with 'Gods' or 'gods').

As for who is using the Foundry, I also feel confident saying it is literally just surviving Titans that evolved and learned how to use it to create more of their brethren. There's currently no evidence of any schemer behind the Titans, they're acting independently.

Edited November 21 by ThatOddOne.4387

[Randulf.7614]

Maybe - and I am rolling it off without as much research as it prob deserves - if the Titans are created from the three WHite Mantle souls speculated about. Then one or more Mursaat beyond the gate in the Mists could be the answer. The White Mantle regard them as Gods. Godspawn would then fit the name of the Titans.

Tenuous, but just an idea

Or maybe it's something "serpent" related

Edited November 26 by Randulf.7614

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 11/21/2024 at 1:05 AM, ThatOddOne.4387 said:

Waiting Sorrow has an interesting line in the recent story update; "You are not gods. You are not even of the gods." Or something to that effect.

Because of this, I feel confident saying no gods are (currently) involved with the story. Though it is yet again evidence of ArenaNet changing their approach regarding how the gods are referred as (Not using 'Human Gods' and just going with 'Gods' or 'gods').

As for who is using the Foundry, I also feel confident saying it is literally just surviving Titans that evolved and learned how to use it to create more of their brethren. There's currently no evidence of any schemer behind the Titans, they're acting independently.

I doubt it is another Titan mostly because where the Foundry is located and the effects on all realms once govern by the Human Gods went through due to them leaving.

I once said in another thead....

With the Human Gods gone, they left alot of things unguarded. This also include the management of all souls sent to the Realm of Torment so it can be anything that was sent down there that may have broken out now that Kormir is no longer watching over the place. 

There is literally nothing guarding all these dangerous artifacts from being used by anyone and evil souls from breaking out of whatever contained them back when the Human Gods managed these places. 

Underworld well atleast had Desmina keeping things in check 

Edited November 23 by EdwinLi.1284

[GeraldBC.4927]

It's simple, you get a lot of the hints at what's going on from the journal entries and letters in the 'A history most violent' side story. Piecing it together from what Isgarren says in the content patch makes it more apparent. 

Manikaz, living near Bava Nisos, built a gate directly into the foundry, believing this wouldn't cause an issue (we dont actually know who did it, it being Manikaz is part of the speculation at the bottom). And while he was alive, it didn't. After the Flameseeker Prophecies were fulfilled, Mabon feared that remnants of the White Mantle might come looking for the city and reopen it, so he set up a barrier that fries people's brains if they get too close. Caudecus led an expedition into Janthir hoping to find something that would give him an edge to overthrow Kryta, but then the bloodstone blew up and he had to leave. A part of his expedition stayed behind and more and more of them died. Eventually it was reduced to three people, led by a very devout follower of Caudecus by the name of Tatyanna. Tatyanna had a vague idea where the city was, but couldn't reach it because of the barrier. Then Mabon died, the barrier faded and the White Mantle were able to row their boat to - somewhere, I assume it's Janthir Gravis. Tatyanna found the city, she found the door/gate to the foundry and opened it.

Maybe she was even involved in creating the new titans. The new titans refer to themselves as 'godspawn', right? Maybe it doesn't refer to literal gods like Balthasar or Dwayna. The White Mantle worshiped the Mursaat as gods, and Manikaz is a Mursaat. If Manikaz' ghost has been forging these new titans from the souls of the White Mantle, that would explain why they think they are the spawn of a god. 

Edited November 23 by GeraldBC.4927

[Fenom.9457]

Love getting new maps in the game so the most exciting thing in some ways is trying to figure out where this will be - Bava Nisos was said to be in the center of Janthir this patch, so I assume that's 100% Janthir Gravis? The center of the main/only island we used to see is that tiny strip between Syntri and Balrior or thereabouts (as a side note I hate leaving tiny fogged patches that are too small to ever be a map please just fill it in with map art anet), so it's definitely not on a section of that main isle we haven't seen yet.

 

I also have to say we've fought Greer and Decima a LOT - two major showdowns in the story, as world bosses, the convergence, AND the raid. That is a lot of frigging fighting the same fellas so I don't really think they'll return but Ura was only in this patch so I wouldn't mind some manner of return for her. Or at least some partial remnant so they can use the new titanspawn models they made those things look cool

[Invidia.9074]

The "Rumbles" document near the heart in northern Syntri also mention that bears sitting on the bones on the beach heard strange sound coming from further north. This, and the mention from the studio that two next maps would be similar in size to Lake Doric would indeed mean that Bava Nisos is placed somewhere on Janthir Gravis. The third one will either be Highland Shore, following the logic that we're staying in Janthir, or the unnamed northwestern island west of Gravis. Unless we get to visit the Foundry of Failed Creations itself as a separate map.

[GeraldBC.4927]

My guess/assumption remains that Janthir Gravis is the zone and Bava Nisos is just a part of the zone. Kind of how....I was trying to come up with an example of how a memorable region exists only as part of a map, but I failed, so I'll just describe it. The way I imagine it is that you have an open landscape map similar to Janthir Syntri, except maybe surrounded by mountains or something because it's grey on the map instead of green. And then one third of the map, located opposite of where you first arrive, is walled off with large golden or dark red 'jade' walls and beyond it, you have actual Mursaat structures, aether seals, jade constructs and so on. and the meta is breaking into it and fighting your way through to get to that 'door' Ura mentioned. 

As for the 4th map, I also think it's the foundry. Originally it was planned to just be a story instance but then they realized that just making the map for the story instance has already done the groundwork for a whole map and all it takes from there is expanding it, putting additional stuff in it and maybe modifying some assets to place copies of them in those additional areas. Iirc they did say the 4th zone won't be in Janthir, and the foundry being located in the mists/the realm of torment would fit the bill. 

[Invidia.9074]

Hm? I'd like to read/hear this, that's the first one I hear about this. Maybe they could even use the unexplored part of Ring of Fire where Door of Komalie originally was.

[Randulf.7614]

11 minutes ago, Invidia.9074 said:

Hm? I'd like to read/hear this, that's the first one I hear about this. Maybe they could even use the unexplored part of Ring of Fire where Door of Komalie originally was.

That would make no sense since the story specifically mentions the gate at Bava Nisos

[Invidia.9074]

Yeah, I know but... who knows what's gonna happen in the second ep.

 

[GeraldBC.4927]

4 hours ago, Invidia.9074 said:

Hm? I'd like to read/hear this, that's the first one I hear about this.

Most of the thread is based off of these lines from Ura and Isgarren

Quote

Ura: I sense celebration on your teeth. Stifle it. For the door we came through sits wide open.

Quote

Isgarren: Two hundred years ago, Mabon went to Bava Nisos right after the titans licked it clean... After the mursaat had been killed. Mabon told me he went to hide a Mists gate that they kept in the gut of the city...He placed a ward over the isle. But when he died, that ward fell. All of Bava Nisos, once again exposed to the world.

It's pretty clear the next episode is going to be about traveling to the isle and finding the city.

19 hours ago, Fenom.9457 said:

I also have to say we've fought Greer and Decima a LOT - two major showdowns in the story, as world bosses, the convergence, AND the raid. That is a lot of frigging fighting the same fellas so I don't really think they'll return but Ura was only in this patch so I wouldn't mind some manner of return for her. Or at least some partial remnant so they can use the new titanspawn models they made those things look cool

Since what JW calls 'progenitor titans' were just regular titans in GW1 without necessarily establishing each as a character with a name and a personality, it's perfectly possible for later content to go back to that and reuse the first three titans design-wise without bringing back the individual characters. For instance, they could simply use their 'titles' as a descriptor for their type of titan and then have other, nameless Blightbringers or Stormsingers show up, preferably alongside some new types. It would also make sense to do that since they went through the effort of designing Ura's minions, but we never actually see those minions outside of Mt Balrior and related story instances. 

Edited November 27 by GeraldBC.4927

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/26/2024 at 8:00 PM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

Kind of how....I was trying to come up with an example of how a memorable region exists only as part of a map, but I failed, so I'll just describe it.

Ebonhawke in Fields of Ruin.

Tarir in Auric Basin.

Amnoon in Crystal Oasis.

Palawadam in Domain of Istan.

Gandara in Domain of Kourna.

Shing Jea Monastery in Seitung Province.

We've had plenty maps where a significant portion was dedicated to a city or city-like location. 😄 And then we've had cases like The Wizard's Tower where the map is only part of the city or city-like structure.

On 11/27/2024 at 12:00 PM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

Quote

Isgarren: Two hundred years ago, Mabon went to Bava Nisos right after the titans licked it clean... After the mursaat had been killed. Mabon told me he went to hide a Mists gate that they kept in the gut of the city...He placed a ward over the isle. But when he died, that ward fell. All of Bava Nisos, once again exposed to the world.

It's pretty clear the next episode is going to be about traveling to the isle and finding the city.

Oh for the love of.

That's utterly stupid - the "a Mists gate that they kept in the gut of the city". Why on earth would the Mursaat keep a gateway to the literal place of their prophecized demise in the heart of their civilization? That's just beyond stupid contrivance just to merit us going to the Foundry without going to the Ring of Fires and Door of Komalie. It's dumber than Abaddon's Reliquary having the perfect setup for a ritual to bring Lazarus back from a situation that was completely unnecessary in GW1 (in GW1, he didn't need all his aspects to return, in fact the entire plot point of stopping Lazarus in GW1 is to prevent the already resurrected Lazarus from getting the last aspect, determining it cannot be removed without killing the host, so deciding to heroic sacrifice the host while poisoning the aspect so Lazarus would be incapacitated and killable, except he escaped last moment anyways).

Seriously, who would see the literal source of their own death and go "yeah, I'll build my house next to this." The Ring of Fire's structures made sense as those were a military compound.

Edited November 28 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Randulf.7614]

7 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ebonhawke in Fields of Ruin.

Tarir in Auric Basin.

Amnoon in Crystal Oasis.

Palawadam in Domain of Istan.

Gandara in Domain of Kourna.

Shing Jea Monastery in Seitung Province.

We've had plenty maps where a significant portion was dedicated to a city or city-like location. 😄 And then we've had cases like The Wizard's Tower where the map is only part of the city or city-like structure.

Oh for the love of.

That's utterly stupid - the "a Mists gate that they kept in the gut of the city". Why on earth would the Mursaat keep a gateway to the literal place of their prophecized demise in the heart of their civilization? That's just beyond stupid contrivance just to merit us going to the Foundry without going to the Ring of Fires and Door of Komalie. It's dumber than Abaddon's Reliquary having the perfect setup for a ritual to bring Lazarus back from a situation that was completely unnecessary in GW1 (in GW1, he didn't need all his aspects to return, in fact the entire plot point of stopping Lazarus in GW1 is to prevent the already resurrected Lazarus from getting the last aspect, determining it cannot be removed without killing the host, so deciding to heroic sacrifice the host while poisoning the aspect so Lazarus would be incapacitated and killable, except he escaped last moment anyways).

Seriously, who would see the literal source of their own death and go "yeah, I'll build my house next to this." The Ring of Fire's structures made sense as those were a military compound.

I can see your point there. Perhaps the gate doesn't lead to The Foundry, but to another part of The Mists or its presence helped hide the city in some way. Or perhaps if they controlled the gate they felt they could prevent their doom (although that would assume the gate's existence prior to the city)

[Squee.7829]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ebonhawke in Fields of Ruin.

Tarir in Auric Basin.

Amnoon in Crystal Oasis.

Palawadam in Domain of Istan.

Gandara in Domain of Kourna.

Shing Jea Monastery in Seitung Province.

We've had plenty maps where a significant portion was dedicated to a city or city-like location. 😄 And then we've had cases like The Wizard's Tower where the map is only part of the city or city-like structure.

Oh for the love of.

That's utterly stupid - the "a Mists gate that they kept in the gut of the city". Why on earth would the Mursaat keep a gateway to the literal place of their prophecized demise in the heart of their civilization? That's just beyond stupid contrivance just to merit us going to the Foundry without going to the Ring of Fires and Door of Komalie. It's dumber than Abaddon's Reliquary having the perfect setup for a ritual to bring Lazarus back from a situation that was completely unnecessary in GW1 (in GW1, he didn't need all his aspects to return, in fact the entire plot point of stopping Lazarus in GW1 is to prevent the already resurrected Lazarus from getting the last aspect, determining it cannot be removed without killing the host, so deciding to heroic sacrifice the host while poisoning the aspect so Lazarus would be incapacitated and killable, except he escaped last moment anyways).

Seriously, who would see the literal source of their own death and go "yeah, I'll build my house next to this." The Ring of Fire's structures made sense as those were a military compound.

I mean, humans build cities on volcanoes IRL all the time. Hell, there's currently people living on Mount Vesuvius, a volcano that's already famous for obliterating people living on it. Sometimes people build in stupid places. But that's also ignoring the fact that we can't control volcanoes. But you can control a gate. The Mursaat, arrogant as they are, likely assumed they could keep that gate closed. Or maybe the prophecy didn't mention that gate in particular, or they just didn't know what that gate was when they built a town there. The possible explanations are endless.

 

I'm not saying the story direction of having a gate in the middle of the city is a great one, but it's not the most unreasonable thing they could've done.

Edited November 28 by Squee.7829

[GeraldBC.4927]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Oh for the love of.

That's utterly stupid - the "a Mists gate that they kept in the gut of the city". Why on earth would the Mursaat keep a gateway to the literal place of their prophecized demise in the heart of their civilization? That's just beyond stupid contrivance just to merit us going to the Foundry without going to the Ring of Fires and Door of Komalie.

It doesn't sound like a smart or intuitive thing to do, but what inference OTHER than that the gate in Bava Nisos leads to the foundry are we supposed to make here?

• Titans (creatures known to come from the mists) seem to be showing up in Janthir
• Bava Nisos, located in Janthir, happens to have a gate to the mists
• When Greer dies, he tells the other titans to return to the foundry. So even if we assume that they don't come from THE foundry of failed creations, they definitely come from A foundry that makes titans. 
• When Ura dies, she says the 'door' they came through is open. 
• The other mists gate most notorious for connecting Tyria to the foundry is known as the DOOR of Komalie

[EdwinLi.1284]

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

We've had plenty maps where a significant portion was dedicated to a city or city-like location. 😄 And then we've had cases like The Wizard's Tower where the map is only part of the city or city-like structure.

Oh for the love of.

That's utterly stupid - the "a Mists gate that they kept in the gut of the city". Why on earth would the Mursaat keep a gateway to the literal place of their prophecized demise in the heart of their civilization? That's just beyond stupid contrivance just to merit us going to the Foundry without going to the Ring of Fires and Door of Komalie. It's dumber than Abaddon's Reliquary having the perfect setup for a ritual to bring Lazarus back from a situation that was completely unnecessary in GW1 (in GW1, he didn't need all his aspects to return, in fact the entire plot point of stopping Lazarus in GW1 is to prevent the already resurrected Lazarus from getting the last aspect, determining it cannot be removed without killing the host, so deciding to heroic sacrifice the host while poisoning the aspect so Lazarus would be incapacitated and killable, except he escaped last moment anyways).

Seriously, who would see the literal source of their own death and go "yeah, I'll build my house next to this." The Ring of Fire's structures made sense as those were a military compound.

I do not think the Gate was originally meant to lead to the Foundry considering we learned about Mursaat's mist origin last expansion. It may have originally been used as their way to travel from their original homeland in the Mist into Tyria but also has the function to adjust the Gate for different locations that have similar Gates in the Mists.

It is only a theory for now but most likely there maybe some kind of Gate system for traveling in the Mists and into Tyria with the Door of Komalie and this Gate in Bava Nisos being part of that system.

We just have to wait until the upcoming two updates for details about the Gate and why better security was not placed on it when they knew about the obvious dangers for having it.

Edited Friday at 07:30 AM by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

It doesn't sound like a smart or intuitive thing to do, but what inference OTHER than that the gate in Bava Nisos leads to the foundry are we supposed to make here?

• Titans (creatures known to come from the mists) seem to be showing up in Janthir
• Bava Nisos, located in Janthir, happens to have a gate to the mists
• When Greer dies, he tells the other titans to return to the foundry. So even if we assume that they don't come from THE foundry of failed creations, they definitely come from A foundry that makes titans. 
• When Ura dies, she says the 'door' they came through is open. 
• The other mists gate most notorious for connecting Tyria to the foundry is known as the DOOR of Komalie

I want to point out the major flaw in your first bullet point: Although I doubt ArenaNet was able to remember, the titans do not solely come from the Foundry of Failed Creations. In GW1, the titans fought and killed were created by The Fury who created the Foundry during the time when Abaddon's forces escaped and overtook the prisons in the Realm of Torment that the Forgotten Wardens were overseeing. This point in time was very clearly post-Exodus and likely ~800 AE given the other known events. However, both the Forgotten and the Ancient Seer establish titans are very old. As old as the Forgotten race, and unchanged for eons since the mursaat-seer war.

Titans seemingly predate the Six Gods' presence in Tyria, but the Foundry was created relatively recently by a servant of the Six.

While I doubt Anet would bother with it, since nobody who should very well know this is acting like they don't (Isgarren) and the titans reference a foundry, it is canonically much more fitting and logical for the gate to lead somewhere else that titans were made.

As to the fourth bullet point... yeah, that's super generic. All portals are doors, and all doors go both ways as Hawkeye ingeniously told the super smart scientists during the first Avengers movie. That said... Ura could be referencing the Door of Komalie, as we know that Khilbron teleported the titans across Central Tyria using portal wraiths - he could have easily sent some to Janthir... except that ArenaNet devs outright told us that these titans were not the same titans from GW1 multiple times when defending their visual and mechanical changes... So by all right, they shouldn't be from the Foundry of Failed Creations in the first place unless the developers outright lied in promotions for JW.

[Randulf.7614]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I want to point out the major flaw in your first bullet point: Although I doubt ArenaNet was able to remember, the titans do not solely come from the Foundry of Failed Creations. In GW1, the titans fought and killed were created by The Fury who created the Foundry during the time when Abaddon's forces escaped and overtook the prisons in the Realm of Torment that the Forgotten Wardens were overseeing. This point in time was very clearly post-Exodus and likely ~800 AE given the other known events. However, both the Forgotten and the Ancient Seer establish titans are very old. As old as the Forgotten race, and unchanged for eons since the mursaat-seer war.

Titans seemingly predate the Six Gods' presence in Tyria, but the Foundry was created relatively recently by a servant of the Six.

While I doubt Anet would bother with it, since nobody who should very well know this is acting like they don't (Isgarren) and the titans reference a foundry, it is canonically much more fitting and logical for the gate to lead somewhere else that titans were made.

As to the fourth bullet point... yeah, that's super generic. All portals are doors, and all doors go both ways as Hawkeye ingeniously told the super smart scientists during the first Avengers movie. That said... Ura could be referencing the Door of Komalie, as we know that Khilbron teleported the titans across Central Tyria using portal wraiths - he could have easily sent some to Janthir... except that ArenaNet devs outright told us that these titans were not the same titans from GW1 multiple times when defending their visual and mechanical changes... So by all right, they shouldn't be from the Foundry of Failed Creations in the first place unless the developers outright lied in promotions for JW.

Not being from GW1 doesn't mean they can't be from the "relit" Foundry if they're newly created though surely? Just because they are different visually/mechanically, doesn't mean they can't come from the same source

[GeraldBC.4927]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Titans seemingly predate the Six Gods' presence in Tyria, but the Foundry was created relatively recently by a servant of the Six.

You keep repeating that, but no amount of repetition will make it more relevant because the titans in Janthir reference 'the foundry' as their point of origin anyway. It doesn't matter if there were titans somewhere before, because those hypothetical other titans are not the same as the ones here. I'd personally just chalk up that one line you've latched onto about the titans preceding the Seers as someone having gotten the timeline mixed up, simple human error on a writer's part. Nobody else references it, nobody else even remembers it. It doesn't matter if there's organic titans out there somewhere because the GW2- and GW1 titans are both factory-made, with a big, fat, canonical 'Made in Foundry' stamp on top. 

And I can't really imagine it going where you're implying it's going. Let's summarize the twin serpent theory based on what is known

• The mists gate in Bava Nisos doesn't lead to the foundry of failed creations but the Rift
• Someone else built a completely new foundry separate from the foundry of failed creations and started creating new titans there.
• They now send the new titans to the Rift and from here, the Twin Serpents send them straight to Tyria through Bava Nisos.

This may look simple when summarized in three lines like this, but how do you imagine unravelling all this from the Wayfinder's point of view the way we're supposed to in the game? So we'd have one map that's either Bava Nisos or something that includes Bava Nisos. Then another content patch and map where you go to the rift and confront the Twin Serpents about what they've been doing, that's a 4th map, but then you'd still have the issue of a fully operational foundry pumping out titans which sooner or later will find their way to Tyria.

What are you expecting? An entire expansion set in the mists that's just about travelling from realm to realm to look for the new foundry? No, the titan stuff has to be wrapped up within JW's four maps. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Not being from GW1 doesn't mean they can't be from the "relit" Foundry if they're newly created though surely? Just because they are different visually/mechanically, doesn't mean they can't come from the same source

I wasn't saying they couldn't be. But the evidence does suggest they are from GW1. Isgarren says it himself - Mabon sealed the city away, including the portal the titans apparently came from, right after Prophecies. So either these titans invaded at the same exact time as the others, or the city was empty for decades or more until someone re-accessed the Foundry.

The Foundry of Failed Creations being reused also implies that either A) Kormir and her forces are utterly incompetent to keep her own domain under control while she's living there (something we've had all indication isn't the case as of Mallyx's death), or B) the Foundry was relit only after the events of Path of Fire, after Kormir left.

But if it was relit after PoF, and Ura etc. aren't even a full decade old yet, that feels highly inconsistent with the implications about these being ancient titans from 200 years ago we're getting.

8 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

You keep repeating that, but no amount of repetition will make it more relevant because the titans in Janthir reference 'the foundry' as their point of origin anyway. It doesn't matter if there were titans somewhere before, because those hypothetical other titans are not the same as the ones here. I'd personally just chalk up that one line you've latched onto about the titans preceding the Seers as someone having gotten the timeline mixed up, simple human error on a writer's part. Nobody else references it, nobody else even remembers it. It doesn't matter if there's organic titans out there somewhere because the GW2- and GW1 titans are both factory-made, with a big, fat, canonical 'Made in Foundry' stamp on top. 

And I can't really imagine it going where you're implying it's going. Let's summarize the twin serpent theory based on what is known

• The mists gate in Bava Nisos doesn't lead to the foundry of failed creations but the Rift
• Someone else built a completely new foundry separate from the foundry of failed creations and started creating new titans there.
• They now send the new titans to the Rift and from here, the Twin Serpents send them straight to Tyria through Bava Nisos.

This may look simple when summarized in three lines like this, but how do you imagine unravelling all this from the Wayfinder's point of view the way we're supposed to in the game? So we'd have one map that's either Bava Nisos or something that includes Bava Nisos. Then another content patch and map where you go to the rift and confront the Twin Serpents about what they've been doing, that's a 4th map, but then you'd still have the issue of a fully operational foundry pumping out titans which sooner or later will find their way to Tyria.

What are you expecting? An entire expansion set in the mists that's just about travelling from realm to realm to look for the new foundry? No, the titan stuff has to be wrapped up within JW's four maps. 

Wouldn't call one of the very first lines about titans from Prophecies being "someone having gotten the timeline mixed up, simple human error on a writer's part" but okay (also for pedantry, I never said "older than the seers"). The reason why I keep repeating it is because people keep on insisting that A) Titans are exclusively servants of Abaddon, and B) the Foundry of Failed Creations is the only source. Even if these said titans said a foundry was their source, unless they said "The Foundry of Failed Creations", technically one can argue any source of titans is a foundry.

And... I made zero comment about my twin serpent theory. So I don't know why you're making that assumption. That first point about the gate "doesn't lead to the foundry but the Rift"? I never said that. I said it would be utterly stupid for the mursaat to build a city around the literal prophesized source of their destruction. Unlike what @Squee.7829 said about humans building around places that were or would be natural disasters like volcanos, usually when such settlements are formed it's when it isn't known to be a volcano, or when the volcano is inactive. Humans do not know it will be their downfall. These mursaat would.

And with the second point, again, I never made such a claim nor does the theory make it either. While it is theoretically plausible for a second foundry to exist, it is theoretically plausible for the person - whether the hidden villain are the twin serpents or someone else - could make use of the Foundry of Failed Creations. In fact, it would make more sense for the twin serpents to use the Foundry of Failed Creations than some random new villain as they were associated with the Six Gods and the god realms.

In short, you can't imagine it's going "where I'm implying its going" but A) I never made that implication and B) the implications I would have made are not those. Let me summarize the twin serpent theory at this point in the story:

1. Twin Serpents Brothers would have become freed after Grenth left Tyria between GW1 and GW2 (this is essentially a given anyways, given Hall of Chains, if they still live).
2. If foundry is The Foundry of Failed Creations, TSB needed to directly or indirectly create the titans post-Kormir departure (Path of Fire). If not, then it would be the biggest idiot ball handling by Kormir if they were created right under her nose. If foundry is not The Foundry of Failed Creations, then TSB just needs direct or indirect access to it to create titans.
3. Portal would need to lead somewhere Ura can access from Foundry of Failed Creations - need not access the Foundry of Failed Creation, need not even access the Underworld where the TSB were imprisoned. Could be the Foundry, but if so, then it would be the biggest idiot ball handling by the mursaat IF the portal predates Prophecies, and lore implies it does.

That's it. That's all it would be.

Let's change the theory to "Menzies did it".

1. Menzies needs to have survived Balthazar.
2. If foundry is The Foundry of Failed Creations, Menzies needed to directly or indirectly create the titans post-Kormir departure (Path of Fire). If not, then it would be the biggest idiot ball handling by Kormir if they were created right under her nose. If foundry is not The Foundry of Failed Creations, then Menzies just needs direct or indirect access to it to create titans.
3. Portal would need to lead somewhere Ura can access from the Foundry of Failed Creations - need not access the Foundry of Failed Creation directly, need not even access the Fissure of Woe or Ravenheart Gloom where Menzies had forces. Could be leading to the Foundry, but if so, then it would be the biggest idiot ball handling by the mursaat IF the portal predates Prophecies, and lore implies it does.

Can swap this out with Dhuum. Can swap this out with Unknown Mists Entity too. Can even swap this with Kormir herself.

Literally whomever the hidden villain behind Ura's creation is... it's literally the same setup.

1. Person needed access to a "foundry" to create titans.
2. If it was the Foundry of Failed Creations, it had to be after Kormir left or else that's a massive L that she couldn't see what was happening in her own house.
3. Portal needs to access the "foundry" that created the titans, either directly or indirectly. If that foundry is the Foundry of Failed Creations, the portal needs to either not lead there directly or post-date Prophecies, except we know it doesn't post-date Prophecies, otherwise it'd be a massive L for our mastermind puppeteering murder-satan race.

8 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

What are you expecting? An entire expansion set in the mists that's just about travelling from realm to realm to look for the new foundry? No, the titan stuff has to be wrapped up within JW's four maps. 

I never even implied this. And it wouldn't be necessary either - there's no need to go to the kittening source if they were naturally formed titans like Gorseval. And there would be no need to go realm to realm. They could have just said a new portal opened up and put it at the peak of Mount Baliar or wherever they wanted to. And bam, instant access to wherever the titans came. Why are you assuming so much just to say "what I expected" (which I never even hinted towards) is stupid?

And technically, no, it doesn't need to wrap up. Because as the dragon saga showed, we can have a single villain for more than one storyline. Hell, it'd be nothing but disappointing if we discover the mastermind behind Ura in the next update, and kill them in the fourth. That'd be rushed worse than Nayos, and ANet fully acknowledged the issue with Nayos was its rushed and condensed storyline.

And next time... do not proclaim someone is saying something they haven't spoken at all in the thread. It's rather insulting, especially when you're proclaiming these lies just to say they're stupid beliefs.

[Randulf.7614]

Forgive me, I'm not sure how I follow they are from GW1. Quite possibly I'm missing some dialogue or context to be filled in, but I assumed it was a case of these are brand new Titans created in the Foundry at some point recently (when it got relit) and when the protections dropped, they were able to enter Tyria. I dont recall the three being specifically referred to as being ancient 

I'm more confused how they portal back through rifts when not at the gate. We've seen it during the meta and we've seen their spawn appear through rifts. Is this a bloodstone gained ability?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

16 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Forgive me, I'm not sure how I follow they are from GW1.

Never said they were, rather I was saying they weren't. But...

16 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I dont recall the three being specifically referred to as being ancient

I could be misremembering but I recall it bring brought up during Titan Research that they were. Of course, ANet / GW2's definition of "ancient" varies a lot, anywhere from 10,000 years to 3,000 years to just 200 years.

Or it could just be the fact Isgarren knows about "their spawn" when first told about titans being in Janthir, despite the fact the whole titanspawn thing is unique to Ura, Decima, and Greer as GW1 titans didn't have this blood cell behavior of progeny. This would show, intentionally or not by the writers, that this behavior is old as it's already known to the Wizard's Court before they were told of it. And it's established the last time titans were present was during Prophecies so that would then mean an "older than Prophecies behavior" from these Titans.

Which would actually imply that they're a different breed of titans, not newly evolved just "born" different in the first place, which would further imply a different "birthplace" than the Foundry of Failed Creations. But at this point, it seems clear ArenaNet is saying that they come from the Foundry of Failed Creations, unless this is one massive red herring which I would definitely appreciate but in no way expect.