Virtuoso remains a problem going into Mount Barlior

[nucklepuckk.1805]

All this discussion between my raid mates and the forums about Mount Barlior has gotten me back on this. Below is a picture of the class representation on every single raid boss (including W8), EoD strikes,  and SotO strikes and their respective challenge or legendary challenge modes. Virtuoso is the most played class on every single fight except for Qadim, Qadim CM, Sabir, and Conjured Amalgam. On those four fights it is still in the top 3 most played classes. This is a problem. Like, a really really big problem. This is extremely unhealthy. On most fights, Chronomancer is also represented at #2. ArenaNet needs to step in and course correct. There is no reason 8 other classes and 25 Elite Specs are this unplayed in Raid/Strike/Fractal content at the same time that ArenaNet is pushing their new exciting raid. Mechanist rifle had largely the same issue (without half of the key survivability/utility that mesmer brings) and that was rightly nerfed. Why is Virtuoso allowed to persist like this for such an extended period of time?

Info is taken from: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/vg. You can click different bosses at the top to see different statistics.

Fractal CMs  break down like this:
Mama: Virt #3
Siax: Virt #3
Enosylss: Virt #3
Skorvald: Virt #3
Astariiv: Virt #3
Arkk: Virt #3
Ai: Virt #1
Dark Ai: Virt #1
Kanaxi: Virt #1
Eparch: Virt #2

 

Edited November 22 by nucklepuckk.1805

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i feel like we should consider our selves lucky that virtuoso doesn't have alacrity or quickness, which is the only reason chronomancer is played instead. i'm perfectly okay with the level chrono is at right now, its really just condition and power virtuoso builds that are the problem.

 

i think perhaps the worst offense is that a range 1200 dagger is infinitely more useful than nearly all (or all?) rifles and longbows in the game.

Edited November 22 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[maxwelgm.4315]

Thing is, I really like the mechanics on the bosses this time around. There are dedicated roles like multiple arrow baits and a kite for the pylons with a good balance in between allowing melee vs ranged classes.

So yes I agree the issue is Virtuoso itself. It's good at all the aforementioned roles and even more and can replace everything else all the time forever. It's probably faster nowadays to do full CM clears with a nearly full squad of Virtuosos instead of swapping to the actually optimal classes if you have average players. Finally, people seem to argue so much around this, but rifle mechanist was nerfed much, much faster, so was quick catalyst who got hotfixed into the first "reduce % of damage" trait trade-off just to keep it in check. But Virtuoso is OK because apparently you need to make sure your 3 main buttons are pressed in order?

[Gendalfs.7521]

Sitting here with my rifle mech main chugging popcorn. Will see how this goes on as I evilly want for viruosso to get consequtive nerfs over few years till every ranged option with range of 1200 becomes a complete thrash as they did with my beloved ranged rifle mech build. He he he.

[zeyeti.8347]

38 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Sitting here with my rifle mech main chugging popcorn. Will see how this goes on as I evilly want for viruosso to get consequtive nerfs over few years till every ranged option with range of 1200 becomes a complete thrash as they did with my beloved ranged rifle mech build. He he he.

Virtuoso is easy , everyone agree on that , but pew pew mech ? 35k afk on the bench before it got nerfed ! a lazy rotation where all you have to do is putting a turret then push rifle skills off cd ! https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity , virtuoso is a +- 17-20% representation in all categories of endgame content , mech was 33% at peak ... 1 player out of 3 was playing mech in raids and strikes.

They don't need to nerf virtuoso damage , it's perfectly fine , but the range , the fact it pierce , don't loose any damage from any range , the defensive all included package (distorsion) , the lifesteal from condi bleed, that's why people play it , it's currently 10th on the dps bench , i know it's a golem and it's not representative , but it kinda tell nerfing the damage of it is not the idea , the toolkit should have a slight nerf , the amount of cc too (virt only ofc , not nerfing moa signet for all mesmer plz...)

[iorana.2968]

I wanna add what mirage feels sooo bad and not effective compared to chrono and virt.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

4 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Virtuoso is easy , everyone agree on that , but pew pew mech ? 35k afk on the bench before it got nerfed ! a lazy rotation where all you have to do is putting a turret then push rifle skills off cd ! https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity , virtuoso is a +- 17-20% representation in all categories of endgame content , mech was 33% at peak ... 1 player out of 3 was playing mech in raids and strikes.

They don't need to nerf virtuoso damage , it's perfectly fine , but the range , the fact it pierce , don't loose any damage from any range , the defensive all included package (distorsion) , the lifesteal from condi bleed, that's why people play it , it's currently 10th on the dps bench , i know it's a golem and it's not representative , but it kinda tell nerfing the damage of it is not the idea , the toolkit should have a slight nerf , the amount of cc too (virt only ofc , not nerfing moa signet for all mesmer plz...)

i still feel like that damage is too high for its range, in real world fights virtuoso is almost always the top dps, even if its less on the golem. there's times when i see the cvirts in the raid/strike having nearly twice the damage of the melee if the boss moves alot, which is also common in fractals.

 

its extremely easy to have your rotation interrupted as melee, and it results in a massive dps loss; this is why the power of ranged has to be kept in check. if it was just the utility that everyone wanted, thief would be just as common, as it provides almost everything mesmer does, but it has to work much harder to achieve the same damage output at range and its low intensity build (p/p unload thief) does only similar damage to other low intensity builds.

Edited November 22 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Nash.2681]

To me the overrepresentation of Virt is a result of the latest not-so-great boss design. The moment A.Net decided it would be "fun" to have bosses that move a lot and/or fart tons of melee hate, people using ranged options for dps was the logic consequence, with Virt being BiS. If you nerf Virt to the point where dps gets too low, people will just switch to another ranged dps option, like scourge or harbinger etc., whatever will be BiS then.

[TexZero.7910]

8 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Virtuoso is easy , everyone agree on that , but pew pew mech ? 35k afk on the bench before it got nerfed ! a lazy rotation where all you have to do is putting a turret then push rifle skills off cd ! https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity , virtuoso is a +- 17-20% representation in all categories of endgame content , mech was 33% at peak ... 1 player out of 3 was playing mech in raids and strikes.

They don't need to nerf virtuoso damage , it's perfectly fine , but the range , the fact it pierce , don't loose any damage from any range , the defensive all included package (distorsion) , the lifesteal from condi bleed, that's why people play it , it's currently 10th on the dps bench , i know it's a golem and it's not representative , but it kinda tell nerfing the damage of it is not the idea , the toolkit should have a slight nerf , the amount of cc too (virt only ofc , not nerfing moa signet for all mesmer plz...)

You're forgetting and comparing this wrong. Mech had a high representation yes, but in multiple roles.
Virt only fills one role and has more representation by comparison.

[ZephyrusSpring.5728]

The dagger is too strong.  It planted itself firmly in every Mesmer build imaginable and is still in a dominant position years later.  It’s a ranged weapon for crying out loud!  It should be balanced on the same tier as ranger’s longbow or thief’s dual pistols.

I want to see the ‘blade’ tag spread across more weapons, specifically the sword and axe.  The axe and spear should dominate the golem environment with the mainhand sword as a close third.  The axe certainly would need a rework to not ruin every condi Mesmer build though.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

And then there are ppl who claim GW2 never favored ranged dmg.

[maxwelgm.4315]

9 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Virtuoso is easy , everyone agree on that , but pew pew mech ? 35k afk on the bench before it got nerfed ! a lazy rotation where all you have to do is putting a turret then push rifle skills off cd ! https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity , virtuoso is a +- 17-20% representation in all categories of endgame content , mech was 33% at peak ... 1 player out of 3 was playing mech in raids and strikes.

They don't need to nerf virtuoso damage , it's perfectly fine , but the range , the fact it pierce , don't loose any damage from any range , the defensive all included package (distorsion) , the lifesteal from condi bleed, that's why people play it , it's currently 10th on the dps bench , i know it's a golem and it's not representative , but it kinda tell nerfing the damage of it is not the idea , the toolkit should have a slight nerf , the amount of cc too (virt only ofc , not nerfing moa signet for all mesmer plz...)

This has been put forward again and again, but it doesn't mean it's correct. Mech was overrepresented because of its dual role of power DPS and insane support capability with large barrier generation as heal alac mech. Virt fits only the one DPS role and still beats everything else by a mile, even amazingly popular "easy mode" specs like Scourge (which can fill more than one role too in fact) and Herald. Lastly but not least, because one spec had 33% representation at one point it doesn't mean 20% among so many others is healthy either.

And also yes, this is about the damage. Power rifle mechanist is still a very easy build and all of its non-damage advantages such as shift signet and ample access to CC are still there, but they toned it down so that it's a really low ceiling build, forcing people to go for other alternatives with more trade-offs if they want to "get on a higher level" in terms of clearing content. Meanwhile, Virtuoso has one of the most loaded kits in the game (much more so than almost any engineer build), and that's kinda OK to have actually! Having a good Virt who can take portal, feedback and Moa, as well as having the capability to kite and damage at range and stay alive indefinitely away from the main group in order to do mechanics, would be very welcome in so many raid and strike encounters, that it would likely have a healthy representation even if it had lower than Pmech damage, which it probably should have for its kit. That would put it into a proper omega-utility role where it can do mechanics so competently that it's OK to take a single or a couple Virts to most encounters still, but not the main DPS who will straight up beat everyone else in the squad.

[nucklepuckk.1805]

8 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

To me the overrepresentation of Virt is a result of the latest not-so-great boss design. The moment A.Net decided it would be "fun" to have bosses that move a lot and/or fart tons of melee hate, people using ranged options for dps was the logic consequence, with Virt being BiS. If you nerf Virt to the point where dps gets too low, people will just switch to another ranged dps option, like scourge or harbinger etc., whatever will be BiS then.

I think that it would be acceptable for people to migrate en masse to Scourge or something because 1) Scourge utility is much less egregious and fight breaking(portals, distortion, etc.) , 2) Scourge requires almost double the APM of Virtuoso, and 3) there are real trade offs in the utility slots unlike with Signet of Illusions and the Virtuoso Elite. Giving up Signet of Undeath or Ghost pet means you have to play much tighter with your life force and giving up Plaguelands or Signet of Spite is a sizable DPS loss.

Edited November 23 by nucklepuckk.1805

[Artemis.8034]

Virts easily top dps at 30 to 40k in wing 8 plus they bring the useful tools to beat and negate some big mechanics. Not gonna lie stacking virts or even some chronos on Greer is pretty much a must. Its like CM cerus all over again lol, they have the highest dps and the best tools for the encounter.

[zeyeti.8347]

On 11/22/2024 at 4:06 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i still feel like that damage is too high for its range, in real world fights virtuoso is almost always the top dps, even if its less on the golem. there's times when i see the cvirts in the raid/strike having nearly twice the damage of the melee if the boss moves alot, which is also common in fractals.

 

its extremely easy to have your rotation interrupted as melee, and it results in a massive dps loss; this is why the power of ranged has to be kept in check. if it was just the utility that everyone wanted, thief would be just as common, as it provides almost everything mesmer does, but it has to work much harder to achieve the same damage output at range and its low intensity build (p/p unload thief) does only similar damage to other low intensity builds.

Have to agree with you , melee should definitly hit way harder than range , especially a full 1200 range.

new content seems to be oriented that way , playing anything else as dps is mostly seen as a challenge.

[zeyeti.8347]

On 11/22/2024 at 9:20 PM, maxwelgm.4315 said:

This has been put forward again and again, but it doesn't mean it's correct. Mech was overrepresented because of its dual role of power DPS and insane support capability with large barrier generation as heal alac mech. Virt fits only the one DPS role and still beats everything else by a mile, even amazingly popular "easy mode" specs like Scourge (which can fill more than one role too in fact) and Herald. Lastly but not least, because one spec had 33% representation at one point it doesn't mean 20% among so many others is healthy either.

And also yes, this is about the damage. Power rifle mechanist is still a very easy build and all of its non-damage advantages such as shift signet and ample access to CC are still there, but they toned it down so that it's a really low ceiling build, forcing people to go for other alternatives with more trade-offs if they want to "get on a higher level" in terms of clearing content. Meanwhile, Virtuoso has one of the most loaded kits in the game (much more so than almost any engineer build), and that's kinda OK to have actually! Having a good Virt who can take portal, feedback and Moa, as well as having the capability to kite and damage at range and stay alive indefinitely away from the main group in order to do mechanics, would be very welcome in so many raid and strike encounters, that it would likely have a healthy representation even if it had lower than Pmech damage, which it probably should have for its kit. That would put it into a proper omega-utility role where it can do mechanics so competently that it's OK to take a single or a couple Virts to most encounters still, but not the main DPS who will straight up beat everyone else in the squad.

Have to agree on cvirt with 4 signets , it's like pew pew mech , also playing with 4 signets , but there is way more button to press 😂.

But i stay on my idea that the dps is fine , it's just it can be done 100% of the time , that's why they are top in the new content, it's an easy pick for stuff you do not know and still strong on many encounters, i maintain they need to slight adjust the cc and the survivability , the tier 1 trait who enable bleeding on any crit with "sword" skill + 3% life steal from bleed is bloated, maybe one of the most op trait tier 1 of the game.

 

[Dayra.7405]

All good range specs got nerfed to dead only virtu remains. Buf other range spec's, don’t nerf the last remaining playable class. I hate this stacking in melee range. And the amount of virtus played let me assume that I am not the only one who likes to play range.

The main problem I see is that benchmarks builds are designed on a not moving not dangerous target where you can camp in meelee range, and the DPS fanatics in the raid/strike/CM-subcommunity require you to play benchmark builds.

Edited November 24 by Dayra.7405

[Mell.4873]

This could also come down to the fact that we have a lot of new players trying this content and they pick the vastly easier Elites from EoD to play.

In a strange way they need to un-nerf some of the overperforming golem builds. I am thinking of Rev Spear for example.

[Eckee.4038]

The problem isn't Virtuoso alone. It's the balance system of GW2 not having any principles.

In most games, classes/characters have trade-offs. No character is allowed to be high dps, ranged, mobile, high utility, tanky, stealthy etc. at the same time. In GW2 Mesmers just have it all and some other classes have very few.

I remember trying to keep up with a cvirt in XJJ CM playing pre-spear condiren until I gave up. It just isn't worth the trouble. I can faceroll a cvirt while watching YT and still have adequete performance.

[Shiyo.3578]

This is an instanced content only issue, please do not nerf Mesmer in other content(i.e open world) due to it.

  

On 11/22/2024 at 8:15 AM, iorana.2968 said:

I wanna add what mirage feels sooo bad and not effective compared to chrono and virt.

One of the numerous abandoned and forgotten specs.

Edited November 24 by Shiyo.3578

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

This is an instanced content only issue, please do not nerf Mesmer in other content(i.e open world) due to it.

  

One of the numerous abandoned and forgotten specs.

Open world is so easy it does not matter. Mesmer is also extremely good and maybe even too good there. Perm quick, 25might fury and just lacking vuln. Most people just like to play afk builds in open world and mesmer isn't it. Pmech, herald and other leech specs reign there.

 

Virt damage is not fine. It does not have the highest bench but unlike spear cata it can reach it on bosses far easier which results in virt being top dps on most encounters that have more mechanics than MO.

Edited November 24 by Nephalem.8921

[Shiyo.3578]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Open world is so easy it does not matter.

Yes it does. This mindset is extremely disrespectful to the majority of players - not to mention this games main focus is open world.

[Aldwin.8245]

Power Virt actually has a 48.4k DPS benchmark now, too, after a recent adjustment to the rotation, which makes it the highest DPS benchmark of any build. Unlike the few others that are close to this number, it doesn't rely on bugs or unrealistic scenarios. Six out of seven DPS players played Power Virtuoso in the current Harvest Temple Challenge Mode world record. The non-virtuoso was used to deal with specific mechanics.

Virtuoso is easily the biggest balance problem in endgame PvE in this game right now. It's downright absurd that nothing has been done about it. This elite spec being so grossly overtuned devalues the worth of every other spec in the game when the optimal solution to almost everything DPS-related is "Virtuoso". This is a big problem.

Edited November 25 by Aldwin.8245

[nucklepuckk.1805]

4 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Yes it does. This mindset is extremely disrespectful to the majority of players - not to mention this games main focus is open world.

In fairness, this is the instanced group content section of the forum, so perspectives are going to be geared towards raids/strikes/fractals - and all their trappings - and virtuoso is very much a problem in those game modes.

[willow.8209]

On 11/22/2024 at 12:17 PM, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

And then there are ppl who claim GW2 never favored ranged dmg.

depends on the year.

but couldn't all styles be viable at the same time?