schokelmei.8271 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 (edited) Yesterday I made a grave error, I wrote Quote Maybe I find the time to make a list of all WvW changes that only benefit GvG and are bad for all other players. and I did. And oh boy, I really didn't expect that. I knew a lot of things changed in WvW and much of it was balancing of classes to better fit in the "meta", but what I did not expect were to find so many changes that give slight to huge advantages to the blob or large group game play. The list is long and I tried to concentrate on the changes which directly changed the core mechanics of WvW - the list may not even be complete, because I started with the patch notes in the new forum (which only go back ~5 years) 24.07.2018 Players can no longer be hit more than once every 0.5 seconds by arrow cart attacks. Edge of the Mists: A new arena area has been added. The area can be accessed from the starting points. Arrow cart damage against siege equipment has been reduced by 50%. The number of targets that can be hit by one arrow cart attack has been reduced from 50 to 25. Shield generators can no longer put domes on other shield generators. Shield generator domes no longer destroy unblockable projectiles. Burning Oil Mastery III now also reduces condition damage and makes the user immune to control effects. Damage reduction for both direct damage and conditions has been increased from 33% to 66%. Gravel Shot now shoots projectiles in a fan shape. Updated ballistae to make them more reliable. Slowed the velocity of Greater Reinforced Shot to give it an arc to make it easier to hit stationary targets (siege equipment). Shield generators now block all attacks from other siege weapons. 07.08.18 Racial Summon Skills: Fixed a bug that allowed players to recast racial summon skills and have more active summons than intended. Mistfire Wolf: Fixed a bug that allowed players to recast this skill and have more mistfire wolves summoned than intended. Increased the size of the Mists Arena. Siege equipment can no longer be placed in the Mists Arena. 13.11.18 Marked: This effect has been updated and will now reveal enemies for 5 seconds if they remain in stealth for 2 seconds or more. This effect is referred to as Detected! New Trick Added—Target Painter: Throw a trick that allows the player to mark up to 50 enemies in a targeted radius of 360 for 30 seconds. This effect cannot be avoided, and it costs 10 supply to deploy. Stealth Disruptor Trap: This trap has been renamed Target Painter Trap and will now mark up to 50 enemies in a 1,200 radius for 30 seconds. This effect cannot be avoided, and its cost is still 10 supply. Participation will no longer decay outside of WvW. As a result, rewards based on participation (pips and reward tracks) will be delayed until the next full tick when entering WvW from outside other WvW maps. 09.04.19 Gates and walls have had their damage mitigation normalized to the damage levels done to tier 1 (wood). All walls and gates should now take the same amount of damage from a siege attack. 13.08.19 Commanders can now choose to make their squads private. This option will make their commander tag invisible on the map, but it will still show up for their squad mates. Commanders who choose to keep their squad public will now get an extra 3 pips per tick. 07.07.20 Dragon's Might: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.666 to 0.5. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 0.8333 to 0.625. Reduced third strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.75. Dragon Talon: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.75. Arrow Cart: Reduced power damage of all skills by 20%. Ballista: Reduced power damage to players of all skills by 20%. Damage to siege weapons is unchanged for skills 1 and 3. Cannon: Reduced power damage of all skills by 20%. 28.07.20 Dragon Banner: Dragon Banner skills have been changes as follows: Dragon Blast (Skill 3): Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.125. Dragon's Breath (Skill 5): Reduced power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.9. 11.05.21 Manual team selection has been added to the Mists Arena. Players can choose between two different combat teams, a spectator team, or a flying spectator transform by interacting with flags on the edge of the arena. Only the players on the combat teams are able to enter the arena. Upon entering the Mists Arena, players will be automatically placed on the spectator team. Leaving the Mists Arena will revert players back to their original WvW team. 09.11.21 Removed the WvW participation grace time granted from repairing. 10.05.22 Competitive Balance Patch (basically nerfed all player AoE to not effect large groups as much) Balance Patch 13.12.22 The Fire Keep lord has been updated to make it less punishing to fight against. The keep lord will apply significantly less crowd control as a result. The keep lord has been given a new primary ranged attack that functions similarly to revenant's Hammer Bolt. The keep lord's cone-shaped knockback attack has had its cooldown increased from 1 second to 6 seconds. This skill was previously the lord's primary attack. The cooldown of the lord's fear ability has been increased from 12 seconds to 24 seconds. The duration of fear applied by this attack is now 1.5 seconds regardless of the player's distance to the keep lord. Previously, this skill could apply up to 3 seconds of fear. The Air Keep lord has been given some slight adjustments to make it less punishing to fight against. The Whirling Prison crowd-control skill no longer removes all stacks of stability when a player attempts to cross the threshold of the ring. It will now remove a single stack of stability, in line with other crowd-control skills. The cooldown of the Whirling Prison skill has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. 31.01.22 Increased the health pool of all ballista variants by 33%. Increased the health pool of all flame ram variants by 25%. Increased the duration of the Iron Hide boon applied by the rank 5 Flame Ram Mastery from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. Increased the range in which the Iron Hide boon is applied from 300 to 600. Increased the range of the non-upgraded version of the ballista's Reinforced Shot from 3,000 to 3,500 to make it more reliable compared to other ballista skills. The upgraded version from the rank 4 Ballista Mastery now extends the range to 4,000. Fixed an issue that caused players under the effect of Oil Mastery III: Increased Armor to be incorrectly affected by certain crowd-control abilities. Fixed an issue that caused players to lose control of siege weapons when affected by knockbacks, blowouts, or fear while under the effects of stability. Objectives We are making some changes to slightly reduce the amount of time it takes for players to break through the defenses of an upgraded tower, keep, or castle while it's actively defended. General Slightly increased the size of camp supervisors, tower lords, and keep lords to make them easier to locate in combat. Increased health of all supply dolyaks by 50%. Camps Increased the base supply hold size for camps from 100 to 150. Increased the passive supply gain rate for camps increased from 10 to 15. Increased the damage and health of camp supervisors by 10%. Keeps Decreased the base supply hold size for keeps from 500 to 400. Decreased the supply hold size increase granted by the Storage Expansion objective upgrade from 400 to 200. Stonemist Castle Decreased the base supply hold size for Stonemist Castle from 1,000 to 700. Decreased the supply hold size increase granted by the Storage Expansion objective upgrade from 400 to 200. Increased the supply gain rate for Stonemist Castle from 50 to 60 per dolyak. Desert Borderlands Increased the damage inflicted by Champion Asai Deftclaw's Gale Slash attack by 20%. Increased the damage inflicted by Champion Asai Deftclaw's Wind Dance attack by 20%. Increased the damage inflicted by Champion Terza Bowsahr's Vengeful Flames attack by 20%. Increased the damage inflicted by Champion Terza Bowsahr's Coalescence of Ruin attack by 20%. Fixed an issue that allowed Champion Prototype B-055 to be permanently crowd controlled. 14.02.22 The rewards for attacking and defending towers, keeps, and Stonemist Castle have been revamped. Players will earn increased rewards based on the number of opposing players participating in the battle and the upgrade tier of the objective. 14.03.22 Repairing walls and gates will no longer award event participation. This alleviates the behavior we've seen in farming Objective Scaling Rewards and "wasting" supply while defending. However, an additional side effect of this is that repairing alone will not progress achievements that require event participation, such as Keep Keeper, Nice View, or Stay Out. Adjusted Objective Scaling Rewards on certain keep defense events. 06.06.23 To reward players for partial progress in the WvW weekly achievements, the WvW weekly meta-achievement has been split into two tiers, awarding 4 gold for each tier completed. Each tier requires three completed achievements, for a total of six. The Invulnerable Fortifications guild claiming tactic has been renamed to Siege Dampener. The Structural Integrity effect applied by this tactic now reduces incoming siege damage to walls and gates by 66% for 60 seconds, rather than making them completely invulnerable. Reduced the cooldown of the Emergency Waypoint guild claiming tactic from 30 minutes to 20 minutes. 19.03.24 The Siege Disabler trick has been updated and renamed to Siege Disruptor. Siege Disruptors will now reduce outgoing siege damage by 66%, and they will cause affected siege devices to take 66% increased damaged for the duration. Golems will still have their skills disabled for the duration. We're modernizing the loadouts of keep lords with the addition of a new healing skill that aids objective defenders in combat, giving the lord a more active role in battle. Keep lords in Alpine Borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds will now have a channeled healing skill at 75% and 25% health thresholds. Their defiance bars will only be available at these health thresholds and can be broken in order to prevent the skill from being fully channeled. We will be closely monitoring player feedback to determine if the skill should be introduced to castle and tower lords as well. 16.01.24 The following changes are part of an ongoing effort to make fighting for—and in—objectives feel better for attacking groups, as the defenders' advantage inside their own structures was previously too strong. While we don't want to swing that advantage completely in favor of attacking groups, we also want to encourage player interaction so that large portions of attacks against structures don't feel like a slog with little payoff. We feel that these changes will help to incentivize more player vs. player interactions while still allowing for defensive tactical gameplay. We will continue to monitor how these changes affect sieges and structure attacks. Across all objective tiers, walls and gates will now be rebuilt when 50% of their health has been restored. Several objectives' capture boundaries have been resized in all four maps: Resource camp capture boundaries are now the same size in all four maps, with two outliers: Rogue's Quarry (the green world's northern camp in Eternal Battlegrounds) and Hamm's Lab (the northern camp in Desert Borderlands) remain unchanged. Generally, this is a reduction in capture boundary size for Alpine Borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds camps and an increase for Desert Borderlands camps. Capture boundaries in O'del Academy, Crankshaft Depot, and Parched Outpost (northwest, southwest, and southeast Desert Borderlands towers) have been reduced. Stonemist Castle's capture boundary has been reduced and centered. Capture boundaries for Green World Keep, Red World Keep, and Blue World Keep in Eternal Battlegrounds have all been reduced. Capture boundaries for garrisons in Alpine Borderlands have been reduced and centered. Capture boundaries for Dreadfall Bay and Ascension Bay in Alpine Borderlands have been reduced and now match those of Shadaran Hills and Askalion Hills. Synthesizer and tactivator locations have been moved in most camps to ensure that they are still inside the capture boundaries. Presence of the Keep and Guild Objective Aura bonus effects now provide +25 power, precision, toughness, and vitality instead of +100. The Empower healing skill that was added to keep lords in Alpine Borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds will now grant stability to allies it affects. Siege golems no longer cause capture objectives to be contested in WvW. Flame rams' Iron Will skill now shares a cooldown between players. The Siege Disabled effect marker has been removed from siege weapons affected by siege disruptors. 21.05.24 Attack and defend events will now display the health bars of tower, keep, and castle lords. Siege disruptors are now unblockable. The Chilling Fog tactic has been renamed Healing Mist. This tactic will now deploy a healing mist throughout objectives that pulses healing to allied forces inside the objective for the duration. The amount of supply provided by the Supply Drop tactic has increased from 100 to 200. Keeps' base supply amount has increased from 400 to 450. Their supply increase at tier 3 has increased from 200 to 250. The capture boundaries for Stonemist Castle and the northern camp in Alpine Borderlands have been slightly increased. 16.07.24 The victory point values from skirmishes will now be weighted based on player activity during the skirmish. The war score awarded for capturing objectives has been increased and will additionally increase based on the objective's tier when it is captured. The war score awarded for defeating an enemy player in WvW is increasing from 2 to 3. These changes are focused on making gameplay in and around sieging structures feel healthier, paying particular attention to the tools defenders have available. We continue to strive to make both attacking and defending feel good for players. Objective-contesting conditions are changing. Objectives will now become contested if the lord is put into combat or if a gate or wall is damaged below 98% health. The Emergency Waypoint tactic now spawns 3 waypoints in various locations near the lord's room in Stonemist Castle and keeps. Alacrity can no longer be applied to players using siege equipment and will be removed from players when activating siege equipment. Boons other than swiftness can no longer be applied to siege golems. Flame ram health has been lowered by 50%. Iron Hide will be applied to flame rams when they are operated. Guild siege golem supply cost has increased from 50 to 75. Arrow cart supply cost has been reduced from 40 to 25. Superior arrow cart supply cost has been reduced from 50 to 35. Trebuchet supply cost has been reduced from 100 to 50. Superior trebuchet supply cost has been reduced from 120 to 60. So, where are we going with this? I think it's time for Anet to decide if WvW should be an Arena style zone where big blobs can hurt each other while running around or the kind of open world zone with Sieges, Roaming and fighting in groups of different sizes where strategic build siege is the way to take down structures. If it's the first thing you can delete the objects and the whole siege building, supply and wall system. You won't need them any longer. In the current state it's impossible to defend them vs bigger numbers and almost impossible to defend them vs equal numbers, because the time from swords to "on lord" is way too short. Additionally the lords are way harder in smaller groups than in groups of 20+. If you want everyone be able to participate in the game mode it's time to revert a lot of those changes linked here. Edited November 28 by schokelmei.8271 correction 2 9 2
Ashen.2907 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 The list innacurately represents some changes as 'only' benefitting one type of play. Also, bug fixes are bug fixes, not changes to play to benefit one style of play. 4 1 1
Chaba.5410 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 Now go through your long list and explain how each change only benefits GvG. None of those are self-explanatory, like AC supply cost being lowered only benefitting GvG... 2 2
Dawdler.8521 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 Can’t read that text on the only usable forum mode, dark mode. Black text on dark grey background. 5 2
Sheff.4851 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 This just looks like a list of all changes. Can you break them down by "good for siege mains", "good for boonballs", "neutral change", and "bugfix", so that we can actually begin to answer the question that this post started by asking? 4 1 1
ArchonWing.9480 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 (edited) I'm sorry, but I'm getting an AI to process this because it is unreadable. Your effort to compile patch changes is appreciated, but the post feels more like a raw data dump than a focused critique. Many readers might find it repetitive or too long to parse, which detracts from your main point about WvW changes favoring blobs. To strengthen your argument, consider grouping changes into categories (e.g., siege mechanics, AoE nerfs, player rewards) and summarizing their impact. Also, your claim that these changes exclusively benefit blobs might face pushback. For example, reduced AoE effectiveness was likely intended to balance large-scale fights without completely invalidating smaller groups. Addressing these counterpoints could add depth to your critique and encourage meaningful discussion."* By reorganizing the argument and addressing potential counterarguments, the author can avoid losing their audience while presenting a stronger case. Key Points in the Original Post: AoE (Area of Effect) Nerfs: The author seems to argue that changes limiting AoE damage, healing, or control disproportionately favor large groups (blobs) at the expense of smaller, skilled squads. Analysis: This is a valid concern. AoE caps can indeed limit the effectiveness of small groups attempting to hold their own against larger forces. However, the intent behind these nerfs might be to reduce the overwhelming advantage of stacking AoE in blob-vs-blob fights. Smaller groups could benefit if tactics like flanking or positioning are emphasized in future updates. Siege Effectiveness: They appear critical of changes reducing the power or utility of siege weapons in WvW. Analysis: Siege weapons traditionally help even the playing field for smaller groups defending objectives against larger forces. A reduction in siege effectiveness might make it harder for defenders, but without specifics (e.g., which siege weapons were nerfed and how), the argument lacks clarity. Favoring Blobs: The overall tone suggests that the game updates cater to blob playstyles, which diminishes the viability of smaller, organized groups. Analysis: While this claim is central to the post, it's not adequately supported. Examples like outnumbered fights or roaming scenarios could illustrate how specific changes impact smaller groups. Conversely, developers might argue that these updates encourage more fair large-scale battles. Repetitiveness in Patch Notes: The raw inclusion of patch notes overshadows any original analysis or insights. Analysis: Summarizing key changes and their perceived impact would improve readability. For instance, instead of pasting every note about AoE caps, highlight the most impactful one and explain why it matters. Edited November 28 by ArchonWing.9480 4 2 1 1
Cuks.8241 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 The last think a gvg guild cares about is siege and walls or even objectives in general. I only read the first few points and nothing was even closely related to gvg and mostly related to ppt which is usually avoided by gvg or more fight oriented groups. Gvg or organised squad fights usually happen in guild halls, OS arena or a few spots in alpine borderland far away from objectives. And plenty gvg players are not happy with many changes in the semi recent past also that seem to make fights much more boring. These changes are often connected to nerfs and removals of interesting mechanics but lead to reduction of tactical choices. The thing is Anet is lately not doing favours to anyone. Also in pve and spvp. Their decisions seem very short sighted. The most obvious is imo the excess of boons and power creep. And I think their intention was good - make boons more accessible to everyone regardless of class and amount of group setup they are willing to do. This was done probably to bring a casual player closer to organised one, mostly in pve. But this actually had very detrimental effect to most of the game maybe in a bit different form per game mode. 1 1 1
ArchonWing.9480 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said: The last think a gvg guild cares about is siege and walls or even objectives in general. This is a consistent and common misunderstanding by people and often results in very incorrect tactics. As an ancient general once said If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will get spawn camped in every fight. Edited November 28 by ArchonWing.9480 2
Chaba.5410 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 2 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said: Analysis: This is a valid concern. AoE caps can indeed limit the effectiveness of small groups attempting to hold their own against larger forces. However, the intent behind these nerfs might be to reduce the overwhelming advantage of stacking AoE in blob-vs-blob fights. Smaller groups could benefit if tactics like flanking or positioning are emphasized in future updates. Lmao! Even AI seems to understand the problem with buffing AoE (see arrow cart damage bug) and I love the constructive feedback it gives. 2
ArchonWing.9480 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 25 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: Lmao! Even AI seems to understand the problem with buffing AoE (see arrow cart damage bug) and I love the constructive feedback it gives. Yea. think we should just AI for most basic circular discussions lol. There's also been a history of AOEs that bypass the limit (typically multi-hit) and I usually never see anyone saying that's good for the game. 1
igmolicious.5986 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: Lmao! Even AI seems to understand the problem with buffing AoE (see arrow cart damage bug) and I love the constructive feedback it gives. I think you might need to re-read that, since even that AI thing isn't saying what you're implying. First, it's talking generally about AoE, not ACs. Second, it says it's a valid concern. Third it says the lower target cap is specifically for blob vs. blob, not blob vs. small group, which, if you're sticking to the AC narrative, isn't what was being said about the potential abuse of AC bug. Last, the "constructive feedback" you're talking about is a potential in the future for flanking or positioning to matter? How is that constructive? Edited November 28 by igmolicious.5986
urd.8306 Posted November 28 Posted November 28 8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said: Can’t read that text on the only usable forum mode, dark mode. Black text on dark grey background. The forum has a dark mode? If not and you use dark mode per browser it's a browser problem.
Chaba.5410 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, igmolicious.5986 said: I think you might need to re-read that, since even that AI thing isn't saying what you're implying. First, it's talking generally about AoE, not ACs. Second, it says it's a valid concern. Third it says the lower target cap is specifically for blob vs. blob, not blob vs. small group, which, if you're sticking to the AC narrative, isn't what was being said about the potential abuse of AC bug. Last, the "constructive feedback" you're talking about is a potential in the future for flanking or positioning to matter? How is that constructive? Yes, it was talking generally while also it mentioned smaller groups. I was addressing "the overwhelming advantage of stacking AoE". ACs are a perfect example since they are an AoE and everyone playing just experienced that damage bug with them and saw firsthand what happened. It doesn't matter whether the concern is valid or not. The fact remains that when a group has more players, they can stack more of everything. Unless you're bringing more players to create a more even playing field, the group with more numbers will always have a stacking advantage. The lower target caps are always intended not only for blob v. blob fights, but to nerf some of that stacking advantage having more numbers does. While some smaller groups could find success in using the ACs against larger numbers, as soon as the blob brought more numbers or started building their own ACs, it was over. Lastly, the feedback is constructive because it offers an alternative avenue for future mechanics or skill changes that leverage the mobility that smaller groups can have over larger groups and it does so without judgement and assumptions about motives or claims of devs catering to specific playstyles. A lot of smaller groups either employ cloud/cockroaching tactics or sudden stealth/portal get-in-get-out real quick bombs to erode a zerg. Larger groups cannot stack that mobility and positioning as well. Having more numbers becomes a disadvantage then. Edited November 29 by Chaba.5410 1
MercurialKuroSludge.8974 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 1 hour ago, urd.8306 said: The forum has a dark mode? If not and you use dark mode per browser it's a browser problem. This thing right here, its ironically not in Settings, but rather the bottom of the Webpage. 2
igmolicious.5986 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said: I was addressing "the overwhelming advantage of stacking AoE". ACs are a perfect example since they are an AoE and everyone playing just experienced that damage bug with them and saw firsthand what happened. Yep, and people who weren't boonballers loved what they saw firsthand. Is it possible that it could be bad it the long-run? Absolutely, but we didn't even get a chance to see that play out because it was bad for sacred boonball. 1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said: It doesn't matter whether the concern is valid or not. Great. 1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said: The fact remains that when a group has more players, they can stack more of everything. Unless you're bringing more players to create a more even playing field, the group with more numbers will always have a stacking advantage. A lot of that advantage was lost with that bug, and while people were crying out "what if blobs do it too," the few times that I personally watched it tried while a blob was attacking (not defending) it ended as quickly as they tried to start it. Is that anectdotal? Yep, but as you mentioned, doesn't matter if that's valid or not. 1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said: The lower target caps are always intended not only for blob v. blob fights, but to nerf some of that stacking advantage having more numbers does. While some smaller groups could find success in using the ACs against larger numbers, as soon as the blob brought more numbers or started building their own ACs, it was over. I've never advocated for raising target caps, though I have advocated for lowering target caps on ally-targetted skills to match those on damage skills. The fact is that smaller target caps DO hinder smaller groups more than larger groups, though, since that target cap determines the maximum size of a group that you can hit all of. With siege, in general, that seems to be around 10-ish people. That means a group of 10 will all be hit if they are in the AoE, whereas a group of 20, only half will be hit, which favours stacking numbers anyway. There is currently no disadvantage to stacking numbers, as you will always be hitting more people with AOEs than a smaller group, since more people using AOEs means a higher total target cap. 1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said: Lastly, the feedback is constructive because it offers an alternative avenue for future mechanics or skill changes that leverage the mobility that smaller groups can have over larger groups and it does so without judgement and assumptions about motives or claims of devs catering to specific playstyles. A lot of smaller groups either employ cloud/cockroaching tactics or sudden stealth/portal get-in-get-out real quick bombs to erode a zerg. Larger groups cannot stack that mobility and positioning as well. Having more numbers becomes a disadvantage then. I've seen plenty of 20 - 40 person zergs run a stealth bomb, and now it's easier than ever with chrono being a popular pick for support. If you have at least 1 per 10 people, you can use mass invis to stealth a group -- and that's way less chronos than most zergs run. I'm also not sure why you think that large groups are not mobile, or don't already take advantage of positioning. While there may be somewhat of a "tail" on zergs made of randoms, most of the single-guild boonballs/zergs are very able to keep on tag, and have no trouble moving at full speed -- the only time they are less mobile is when they are on siege. As was claimed about the AC bug, if positioning or flanking granted a benefit, you can bet boonballs would take full advantage of it and be more deadly because of numbers. Edited November 29 by igmolicious.5986
igmolicious.5986 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 1 hour ago, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said: This thing right here, its ironically not in Settings, but rather the bottom of the Webpage. I never would have found it if you didn't point it out. Thanks! 1
Chaba.5410 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 (edited) 31 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said: Is it possible that it could be bad it the long-run? Absolutely, but we didn't even get a chance to see that play out because it was bad for sacred boonball. How long have you been playing this game by chance? Because this experiment has already been run before they bugged out recently, including even the part with class traits proc-ing off the ACs Here was the buff: Here was the nerf: "while they thought they were helping the out-manned servers, it had the opposite effect. It made WvW entirely tedious because the high-coverage servers can afford the supply and man power to spend to defend their time in fully-sieged fortifications while out-zerging their under-manned opponents at the same time." https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/938738-guild-wars-2/66216025 Edited November 29 by Chaba.5410 1
igmolicious.5986 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 10 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: How long have you been playing this game by chance? Because this experiment has already been run before they bugged out recently, including even the part with class traits proc-ing off the ACs Here was the buff: Here was the nerf: "while they thought they were helping the out-manned servers, it had the opposite effect. It made WvW entirely tedious because the high-coverage servers can afford the supply and man power to spend to defend their time in fully-sieged fortifications while out-zerging their under-manned opponents at the same time." https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/938738-guild-wars-2/66216025 I've been playing off and on since launch, and remember this bug, as old as it is, and as different as WvW was back then. The issue here was more centric to the issue with coverage, which is still an issue, though less so now than then depending on what server you were with. I've always been upfront that I believe defenders should have the advantage when defending an objective, and that's exactly what you're linking here. The main trouble here was that there was no coverage on opponents side to stop them from taking objectives and holding them long enough to build up siege -- this still happens, even without the bug, even though siege is not a huge threat to boonballs outside of burning supply, while still being a major threat to small groups. 1
Chaba.5410 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 1 minute ago, igmolicious.5986 said: The main trouble here was that there was no coverage on opponents side to stop them from taking objectives and holding them long enough to build up siege -- this still happens, even without the bug, even though siege is not a huge threat to boonballs outside of burning supply, while still being a major threat to small groups. Yes, that supports my earlier point about how larger groups can stack AoEs so things like limiting target caps or damage limits the boonball. And lack of coverage wasn't the only trouble. It would be amiss to disregard the rest since these things aren't a vacuum. They affect the entire system. When the team with the smaller number of players during prime that has to spin wheels and put "more effort" into trying to take back their objectives against well defended fortifications (made more difficult by things like the bugged ACs), perhaps the VP scoring changes start to make more sense to readers. 1
igmolicious.5986 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 22 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: Yes, that supports my earlier point about how larger groups can stack AoEs so things like limiting target caps or damage limits the boonball. And lack of coverage wasn't the only trouble. It would be amiss to disregard the rest since these things aren't a vacuum. They affect the entire system. When the team with the smaller number of players during prime that has to spin wheels and put "more effort" into trying to take back their objectives against well defended fortifications (made more difficult by things like the bugged ACs), perhaps the VP scoring changes start to make more sense to readers. Back around the circle... Again, this is no different than how it already is -- links with more people are going to be able to hold objectives just fine vs links that have bad coverage. Numbers DO matter, which is why there was a lot of support from the people who normally have smaller groups about the AC bug, since it gave defenders a chance when they DIDN'T have a numbers advantage. A link with less coverage is going to have a hard time taking back objectives from a link with great coverage (that actually defends), regardless of how ACs function. Even if you have a boonball, if the enemy has a larger boonball defending, you're still not likely to take it in the current environment. 2
Mike.3196 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 14 hours ago, schokelmei.8271 said: Yesterday I made a grave error, I wrote and I did. And oh boy, I really didn't expect that. I knew a lot of things changed in WvW and much of it was balancing of classes to better fit in the "meta", but what I did not expect were to find so many changes that give slight to huge advantages to the blob or large group game play. The list is long and I tried to concentrate on the changes which directly changed the core mechanics of WvW - the list may not even be complete, because I started with the patch notes in the new forum (which only go back ~5 years) 24.07.2018 Players can no longer be hit more than once every 0.5 seconds by arrow cart attacks. Edge of the Mists: A new arena area has been added. The area can be accessed from the starting points. Arrow cart damage against siege equipment has been reduced by 50%. The number of targets that can be hit by one arrow cart attack has been reduced from 50 to 25. Shield generators can no longer put domes on other shield generators. Shield generator domes no longer destroy unblockable projectiles. Burning Oil Mastery III now also reduces condition damage and makes the user immune to control effects. Damage reduction for both direct damage and conditions has been increased from 33% to 66%. Gravel Shot now shoots projectiles in a fan shape. Updated ballistae to make them more reliable. Slowed the velocity of Greater Reinforced Shot to give it an arc to make it easier to hit stationary targets (siege equipment). Shield generators now block all attacks from other siege weapons. 07.08.18 Racial Summon Skills: Fixed a bug that allowed players to recast racial summon skills and have more active summons than intended. Mistfire Wolf: Fixed a bug that allowed players to recast this skill and have more mistfire wolves summoned than intended. Increased the size of the Mists Arena. Siege equipment can no longer be placed in the Mists Arena. 13.11.18 Marked: This effect has been updated and will now reveal enemies for 5 seconds if they remain in stealth for 2 seconds or more. This effect is referred to as Detected! New Trick Added—Target Painter: Throw a trick that allows the player to mark up to 50 enemies in a targeted radius of 360 for 30 seconds. This effect cannot be avoided, and it costs 10 supply to deploy. Stealth Disruptor Trap: This trap has been renamed Target Painter Trap and will now mark up to 50 enemies in a 1,200 radius for 30 seconds. This effect cannot be avoided, and its cost is still 10 supply. Participation will no longer decay outside of WvW. As a result, rewards based on participation (pips and reward tracks) will be delayed until the next full tick when entering WvW from outside other WvW maps. 09.04.19 Gates and walls have had their damage mitigation normalized to the damage levels done to tier 1 (wood). All walls and gates should now take the same amount of damage from a siege attack. 13.08.19 Commanders can now choose to make their squads private. This option will make their commander tag invisible on the map, but it will still show up for their squad mates. Commanders who choose to keep their squad public will now get an extra 3 pips per tick. 07.07.20 Dragon's Might: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.666 to 0.5. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 0.8333 to 0.625. Reduced third strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.75. Dragon Talon: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.75. Arrow Cart: Reduced power damage of all skills by 20%. Ballista: Reduced power damage to players of all skills by 20%. Damage to siege weapons is unchanged for skills 1 and 3. Cannon: Reduced power damage of all skills by 20%. 28.07.20 Dragon Banner: Dragon Banner skills have been changes as follows: Dragon Blast (Skill 3): Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.125. Dragon's Breath (Skill 5): Reduced power coefficient from 1.2 to 0.9. 11.05.21 Manual team selection has been added to the Mists Arena. Players can choose between two different combat teams, a spectator team, or a flying spectator transform by interacting with flags on the edge of the arena. Only the players on the combat teams are able to enter the arena. Upon entering the Mists Arena, players will be automatically placed on the spectator team. Leaving the Mists Arena will revert players back to their original WvW team. 09.11.21 Removed the WvW participation grace time granted from repairing. 10.05.22 Competitive Balance Patch (basically nerfed all player AoE to not effect large groups as much) Balance Patch 13.12.22 The Fire Keep lord has been updated to make it less punishing to fight against. The keep lord will apply significantly less crowd control as a result. The keep lord has been given a new primary ranged attack that functions similarly to revenant's Hammer Bolt. The keep lord's cone-shaped knockback attack has had its cooldown increased from 1 second to 6 seconds. This skill was previously the lord's primary attack. The cooldown of the lord's fear ability has been increased from 12 seconds to 24 seconds. The duration of fear applied by this attack is now 1.5 seconds regardless of the player's distance to the keep lord. Previously, this skill could apply up to 3 seconds of fear. The Air Keep lord has been given some slight adjustments to make it less punishing to fight against. The Whirling Prison crowd-control skill no longer removes all stacks of stability when a player attempts to cross the threshold of the ring. It will now remove a single stack of stability, in line with other crowd-control skills. The cooldown of the Whirling Prison skill has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. 31.01.22 Increased the health pool of all ballista variants by 33%. Increased the health pool of all flame ram variants by 25%. Increased the duration of the Iron Hide boon applied by the rank 5 Flame Ram Mastery from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. Increased the range in which the Iron Hide boon is applied from 300 to 600. Increased the range of the non-upgraded version of the ballista's Reinforced Shot from 3,000 to 3,500 to make it more reliable compared to other ballista skills. The upgraded version from the rank 4 Ballista Mastery now extends the range to 4,000. Fixed an issue that caused players under the effect of Oil Mastery III: Increased Armor to be incorrectly affected by certain crowd-control abilities. Fixed an issue that caused players to lose control of siege weapons when affected by knockbacks, blowouts, or fear while under the effects of stability. Objectives We are making some changes to slightly reduce the amount of time it takes for players to break through the defenses of an upgraded tower, keep, or castle while it's actively defended. General Slightly increased the size of camp supervisors, tower lords, and keep lords to make them easier to locate in combat. Increased health of all supply dolyaks by 50%. Camps Increased the base supply hold size for camps from 100 to 150. Increased the passive supply gain rate for camps increased from 10 to 15. Increased the damage and health of camp supervisors by 10%. Keeps Decreased the base supply hold size for keeps from 500 to 400. Decreased the supply hold size increase granted by the Storage Expansion objective upgrade from 400 to 200. Stonemist Castle Decreased the base supply hold size for Stonemist Castle from 1,000 to 700. Decreased the supply hold size increase granted by the Storage Expansion objective upgrade from 400 to 200. Increased the supply gain rate for Stonemist Castle from 50 to 60 per dolyak. Desert Borderlands Increased the damage inflicted by Champion Asai Deftclaw's Gale Slash attack by 20%. Increased the damage inflicted by Champion Asai Deftclaw's Wind Dance attack by 20%. Increased the damage inflicted by Champion Terza Bowsahr's Vengeful Flames attack by 20%. Increased the damage inflicted by Champion Terza Bowsahr's Coalescence of Ruin attack by 20%. Fixed an issue that allowed Champion Prototype B-055 to be permanently crowd controlled. 14.02.22 The rewards for attacking and defending towers, keeps, and Stonemist Castle have been revamped. Players will earn increased rewards based on the number of opposing players participating in the battle and the upgrade tier of the objective. 14.03.22 Repairing walls and gates will no longer award event participation. This alleviates the behavior we've seen in farming Objective Scaling Rewards and "wasting" supply while defending. However, an additional side effect of this is that repairing alone will not progress achievements that require event participation, such as Keep Keeper, Nice View, or Stay Out. Adjusted Objective Scaling Rewards on certain keep defense events. 06.06.23 To reward players for partial progress in the WvW weekly achievements, the WvW weekly meta-achievement has been split into two tiers, awarding 4 gold for each tier completed. Each tier requires three completed achievements, for a total of six. The Invulnerable Fortifications guild claiming tactic has been renamed to Siege Dampener. The Structural Integrity effect applied by this tactic now reduces incoming siege damage to walls and gates by 66% for 60 seconds, rather than making them completely invulnerable. Reduced the cooldown of the Emergency Waypoint guild claiming tactic from 30 minutes to 20 minutes. 19.03.24 The Siege Disabler trick has been updated and renamed to Siege Disruptor. Siege Disruptors will now reduce outgoing siege damage by 66%, and they will cause affected siege devices to take 66% increased damaged for the duration. Golems will still have their skills disabled for the duration. We're modernizing the loadouts of keep lords with the addition of a new healing skill that aids objective defenders in combat, giving the lord a more active role in battle. Keep lords in Alpine Borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds will now have a channeled healing skill at 75% and 25% health thresholds. Their defiance bars will only be available at these health thresholds and can be broken in order to prevent the skill from being fully channeled. We will be closely monitoring player feedback to determine if the skill should be introduced to castle and tower lords as well. 16.01.24 The following changes are part of an ongoing effort to make fighting for—and in—objectives feel better for attacking groups, as the defenders' advantage inside their own structures was previously too strong. While we don't want to swing that advantage completely in favor of attacking groups, we also want to encourage player interaction so that large portions of attacks against structures don't feel like a slog with little payoff. We feel that these changes will help to incentivize more player vs. player interactions while still allowing for defensive tactical gameplay. We will continue to monitor how these changes affect sieges and structure attacks. Across all objective tiers, walls and gates will now be rebuilt when 50% of their health has been restored. Several objectives' capture boundaries have been resized in all four maps: Resource camp capture boundaries are now the same size in all four maps, with two outliers: Rogue's Quarry (the green world's northern camp in Eternal Battlegrounds) and Hamm's Lab (the northern camp in Desert Borderlands) remain unchanged. Generally, this is a reduction in capture boundary size for Alpine Borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds camps and an increase for Desert Borderlands camps. Capture boundaries in O'del Academy, Crankshaft Depot, and Parched Outpost (northwest, southwest, and southeast Desert Borderlands towers) have been reduced. Stonemist Castle's capture boundary has been reduced and centered. Capture boundaries for Green World Keep, Red World Keep, and Blue World Keep in Eternal Battlegrounds have all been reduced. Capture boundaries for garrisons in Alpine Borderlands have been reduced and centered. Capture boundaries for Dreadfall Bay and Ascension Bay in Alpine Borderlands have been reduced and now match those of Shadaran Hills and Askalion Hills. Synthesizer and tactivator locations have been moved in most camps to ensure that they are still inside the capture boundaries. Presence of the Keep and Guild Objective Aura bonus effects now provide +25 power, precision, toughness, and vitality instead of +100. The Empower healing skill that was added to keep lords in Alpine Borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds will now grant stability to allies it affects. Siege golems no longer cause capture objectives to be contested in WvW. Flame rams' Iron Will skill now shares a cooldown between players. The Siege Disabled effect marker has been removed from siege weapons affected by siege disruptors. 21.05.24 Attack and defend events will now display the health bars of tower, keep, and castle lords. Siege disruptors are now unblockable. The Chilling Fog tactic has been renamed Healing Mist. This tactic will now deploy a healing mist throughout objectives that pulses healing to allied forces inside the objective for the duration. The amount of supply provided by the Supply Drop tactic has increased from 100 to 200. Keeps' base supply amount has increased from 400 to 450. Their supply increase at tier 3 has increased from 200 to 250. The capture boundaries for Stonemist Castle and the northern camp in Alpine Borderlands have been slightly increased. 16.07.24 The victory point values from skirmishes will now be weighted based on player activity during the skirmish. The war score awarded for capturing objectives has been increased and will additionally increase based on the objective's tier when it is captured. The war score awarded for defeating an enemy player in WvW is increasing from 2 to 3. These changes are focused on making gameplay in and around sieging structures feel healthier, paying particular attention to the tools defenders have available. We continue to strive to make both attacking and defending feel good for players. Objective-contesting conditions are changing. Objectives will now become contested if the lord is put into combat or if a gate or wall is damaged below 98% health. The Emergency Waypoint tactic now spawns 3 waypoints in various locations near the lord's room in Stonemist Castle and keeps. Alacrity can no longer be applied to players using siege equipment and will be removed from players when activating siege equipment. Boons other than swiftness can no longer be applied to siege golems. Flame ram health has been lowered by 50%. Iron Hide will be applied to flame rams when they are operated. Guild siege golem supply cost has increased from 50 to 75. Arrow cart supply cost has been reduced from 40 to 25. Superior arrow cart supply cost has been reduced from 50 to 35. Trebuchet supply cost has been reduced from 100 to 50. Superior trebuchet supply cost has been reduced from 120 to 60. So, where are we going with this? I think it's time for Anet to decide if WvW should be an Arena style zone where big blobs can hurt each other while running around or the kind of open world zone with Sieges, Roaming and fighting in groups of different sizes where strategic build siege is the way to take down structures. If it's the first thing you can delete the objects and the whole siege building, supply and wall system. You won't need them any longer. In the current state it's impossible to defend them vs bigger numbers and almost impossible to defend them vs equal numbers, because the time from swords to "on lord" is way too short. Additionally the lords are way harder in smaller groups than in groups of 20+. If you want everyone be able to participate in the game mode it's time to revert a lot of those changes linked here. You should just put every time they nerfed boonstrip for last 6 years that wouldve been more op 1
willow.8209 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 10 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said: Conversely, developers might argue that these updates encourage more fair large-scale battles. what is the AI reading that I don't have access to lol
Chaba.5410 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 21 minutes ago, willow.8209 said: what is the AI reading that I don't have access to lol Instant access to all the posts ever made on this subject that is next to impossible for a human to hold in working memory unless you're one of those photographic memory people. 1
Chaba.5410 Posted November 29 Posted November 29 (edited) 4 hours ago, igmolicious.5986 said: A link with less coverage is going to have a hard time taking back objectives from a link with great coverage (that actually defends), regardless of how ACs function. And you don't see a difference in how adjustments with the offense/defense siege balance can increase or decrease the average time it takes for the team with less coverage to regain objectives? Edited November 29 by Chaba.5410 1
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now