Human Gods *Spoilers*

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@MVP.7961 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MVP.7961 said:Did you seriously utilize the Christian concept of God? I don't follow that concept so let me just toss that out of the window. Also, it is better to not bring in religion into this discussion, even if it is for the sake of comparison.

lol, "not bring religion into this discussion" when the whole premise of the discussion is about gods and their worshippers.

Yup, beyond reasonable.

I can't possibly imagine the life you live in to think that FICTIONAL and FANTASY story-lines are comparable with real-life religions that people here follow. Not only is it offensive, but also insensitive mainly because not everyone is Christian, and would therefore question your logic behind your statement. Had I not been knowledgeable about what you just said, I would have completely misunderstood your intentions. Furthermore, religion is a sensitive topic, which is why it's better if we do not even bring it up as a comparison. It is hard to tell the tone and intentions of a writer. I hope you understand that.

You cannot fault me that you misunderstood the point of my post that it was never about IRL religion rather it's about human behavior on how they perceive their chosen deity and how they apply that perception to their arts and sculptures. You took my post as offensive when there is nothing offensive about it nor I ever attack any religion. You sir/ma'am is the problem, not me.

[MVP.7961]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MVP.7961 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MVP.7961 said:Did you seriously utilize the Christian concept of God? I don't follow that concept so let me just toss that out of the window. Also, it is better to not bring in religion into this discussion, even if it is for the sake of comparison.

lol, "not bring religion into this discussion" when the whole premise of the discussion is about gods and their worshippers.

Yup, beyond reasonable.

I can't possibly imagine the life you live in to think that FICTIONAL and FANTASY story-lines are comparable with real-life religions that people here follow. Not only is it offensive, but also insensitive mainly because not everyone is Christian, and would therefore question your logic behind your statement. Had I not been knowledgeable about what you just said, I would have completely misunderstood your intentions. Furthermore, religion is a sensitive topic, which is why it's better if we do not even bring it up as a comparison. It is hard to tell the tone and intentions of a writer. I hope you understand that.

You cannot fault me that you misunderstood the point of my post that it was never about IRL religion rather it's about human behavior on how they perceive their chosen deity and how they apply that perception to their arts and sculptures. You took my post as offensive when there is nothing offensive about it nor I ever attack any religion. You sir/ma'am is the problem, not me.

And you just proved my point about misunderstanding intentions. Thank you so very much for setting an example.

Now let me get back to the topic as I have better things to waste time on.

ArenaNet, I hope you're reading this. You may have supporters but that does not excuse your poor performance. Not only has your servers been in horrible state, most of my friends have disappeared due to how poorly your game is being executed. Having a high amount of players does not mean retention. People are just cycling through. Unless you're in an online laundry business, please fix your work.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

The beauty of free market is that you don't have to buy what you hate.

[Sun.2036]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The beauty of free market is that you don't have to buy what you hate.

Which is why I did not buy the expansion, it is good of you to emphasize on how we should not support developers who cannot perform well.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Sun.2036 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:The beauty of free market is that you don't have to buy what you hate.

Which is why I did not buy the expansion, it is good of you to emphasize on how we should not support developers who cannot perform well.

"perform well" is relative and subjective.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

[Ashur.7648]

It' always a futile thing trying to argue personal taste, then people use bad facts and get upset when others disagree. It's perfectly fine to not be impressed by Balthazar, I wasn't. But then again I'm used to seeing everyone in this game running around with fiery armor and glowing weapons and riding burning rocks around.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

@MVP.7961 said:Dear Lord and Savior Abaddon, forgive me for I hath sinned! For I keep begging thy people to stick to the topic but I myself fail to.

YOUR FALSE GOD IS DEAD!

@MVP.7961 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

This line of discussion is on topic actually. Gods always take the form of the creature worshipping them. Human sees the gods as humanoid because it is easier for them to perceive a divine being by using an image that they are familiar with. If you look at the artistic depiction of the Christian God, for example, he is depicted to be humanoid even though there is no evidence of what he really looks like -- which coincides with the Tyrian human's depiction of their gods when looking their statues. Thus regardless of the gods' actual form, human sees them, or rather, the gods show themselves, to be humanoid.

Did you seriously utilize the Christian concept of God? I don't follow that concept so let me just toss that out of the window. Also, it is better to not bring in religion into this discussion, even if it is for the sake of comparison.

Yeah, how dare you use actual human behavior to argue against this guy's subjective objective view on what the diminished Balthazar should look like!

I take back what I said in my previous post, this is a great thread! Makes me miss being able to post gifs though..

---

Hate Is Fuel

---

[MVP.7961]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

https://puu.sh/xGhsM/1c53d0fab0.pnghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

Excuse me KonnigIT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT LYSSA TOOK IT

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

https://puu.sh/xGi5c/3e04fb76d2.png"It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes - deep, like the colours of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings."

Totally humanoid.

"The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world. She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace."

No indication of her being a humanoid, but that she lead humanity.

"The two who are one, Lyss and Ilya, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past. For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road."

Where is her being a humanoid mentioned?

https://puu.sh/xG5xu/d3fb7de496.png really though Konnig.

Also, there is that lore fact where of the Forgotten:

"Human legends state that the Forgotten were originally brought to Tyria by the Six Gods to serve as the world's custodians during the gods' reforming of the planet, though this has been called into question due to the true history of the gods being revealed. Human records also say that the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1769 BE, though whether this refers to the world or the continent is unknown."

The Forgotten are serpentine worshipers of the Six God. They are not even Humanoid. Yet here you are insisting that ANet did justice to Balthazar. No, they did not. These Gods brought a completely different creature to human beings as well.

Need I remind you all that Balthazar is one of the Gods that took down Abaddon, and what do we get? This overgrown Norn potato?

https://puu.sh/xG6b2/32b029300f.png

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

Look at this video:

All of these were Dervish Avatars of the Gods.And the armor skin we got are these.

https://puu.sh/xGh1Q/b807eaca50.pnghttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dervish

Physical embodiment of God. Which mean this form is his real form

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/9/92/Avatar_of_Balthazar_concept_art.jpgbut Anet thought it wasn’t good enough and decide an elementliest norn look alike is better than the established look for him.

[syntohras.1064]

Sad that the *Seventh" God isn't even mentioned here.....DHUUM! The only true god of death!https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/6/63/Dhuum_concept_art.jpg

Hope he will be back......

[Sun.2036]

@syntohras.1064 said:Sad that the *Seventh" God isn't even mentioned here.....DHUUM! The only true god of death!https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/6/63/Dhuum_concept_art.jpg

Hope he will be back......

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS!

[smiiirf.3201]

Oh yeah Dhuum is so badass. What a Legendary Banhammer hehehe. Hope too that he will have some "screentime" in future. Loved him really much in Guild Wars.

[Alasia.9502]

@MVP.7961 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MVP.7961 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Balthazar has always been perceived as a large human. If you look at Kormir, she's a frail old human. If Balthazar can disguise himself as a Mursaat, then he can surely disguise as human or norn. Judging by how Abaddon look, the human gods can be anything.

Balthazar used Lyssa's mirror to change his appearance. He did not do so from his own magical abilities.

Kormir is a human being. We all know she's a human being who was raised by the Gods and she took Abaddon's place hence her appearance. Grenth is half-God hence his appearance.

Abaddon possesses six eyes. That is not human.

True that Balthazar used the mirror and that is the point. What if his current image is just another illusion? What if all the gods look like Abaddon, big and ugly?

Kormir is the human god of order, spirit, and truth, thus she cannot deceive us by making herself to look like something else other than human. Every other god is up for deception.

Kormir was never a god. She was a human who was given Abaddon's powers and that is the main reason why she is a Goddess and because she's a human, Abaddon's power effect her drastically. I am guessing you did not play Guild Wars Nightfall. Please do look up the lore in case you have not. Look at Abaddon's form in the Realm of Torment.

That is Abaddon at his weakest, and you'd think Balthazar would be more formidable.

Abaddon was once a mortal. He too usurped a god and took its place. Just like Grenth and Kormir.

Abaddon's form in the Realm of Torment is not his original appearance. It is like looking at Khilbron as a lich and going "even in life he had draconian wings!"

Abaddon also was not at his weakest then. At least three of the eight seals blocking his power from escaping the Realm of Torment had been destroyed. Even when all eight seals were in place, he had all his power. He just couldn't use it to effectively influence beyond his prison.

@MVP.7961 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Nothing actually says Abaddon has six eyes... His original appearance was human with a six eyed mask, but we never saw him with six eyes. His NF appearance was inhumane because his original body was destroyed and he was - according to gw.dat descriptions - creating a new body out of the Realm of Torment itself.

Yet Abaddon is said to have had wings. What you said adds to the fact that the Six Gods are not human beings (being able to create new body like its nothing). My point here is that ANet has made a horrible representation of Balthazar

His wings were blue and ethereal by description. To me, it sounded more like Paragon wings in gw1 but blue rather than gold. Whereas Dwayna had feathered wings, more akin to harpies except with blue skin, human feet, and white wings.

Melandru is also said to be bark-covered... But is that because she is a sapient divine humanoid plant or because her godhood gave her bark covered skin?

Ultimately hard to say.

And making a new body for his soul to be housed in is no more inhumane than the M.I.G. asura storyline, forced to become Shiro'ken or Forged, or becoming a lich. Would you say Khilbron was not human? Because we know he was.

There are many possibilities. As I said, I am only expressing my view on ANet's poor work on Balthazar's model.

I would say Khilbron is an undead human being as the lore portrayed him to be. Abaddon was an unleashed God. The very fact that you said their forms are a shell highlights how inhumane they are. Yet ANet did not portray that with Balthazar.

ANet's poor model work AND poor story work on Balthazar! SOMEONE MAKE THEM STOP! DEAR GAHD. Fire the writer.

[Alasia.9502]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

killed off a God. An epic one too!

That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

[morsdood.1987]

@Alasia.9502 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

killed off a God. An epic one too!

That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.Gotta hand it to you, your tantrum about PoF and ''muh balthazar'' is probably the best one I've seen so far, bravo.

Can I have your stuff if you're quitting? Thanks.

[Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324]

@Alasia.9502 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

killed off a God. An epic one too!

That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

Is this forbidden to kill a god? Tyrians have already did that, why shouldn't they be allowed to repeat?

[Alasia.9502]

@Killerbot.8645 said:

@Alasia.9502 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

killed off a God. An epic one too!

That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.Gotta hand it to you, your tantrum about PoF and ''muh balthazar'' is probably the best one I've seen so far, bravo.

Can I have your stuff if you're quitting? Thanks.

Oh wow, then you haven't seen a tantrum in your life. Check this out: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/4816/the-path-of-failure-in-story-lore-pof-spoilers#latest

Sure you can have all my garbage from this garbage game. One man's trash is another man's treasure I suppose. Have fun, garbage man.

@Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

@Alasia.9502 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

killed off a God. An epic one too!

That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

Is this forbidden to kill a god? Tyrians have already did that, why shouldn't they be allowed to repeat?

There is nothing forbidding the killing of a God. What is being discussed is how stupid the plot ANet brought is. It is absolutely horrendous. It's like reading a rookie fanfictions, an even those are better. Lord have mercy.This dude explains the problems pretty well:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/4816/the-path-of-failure-in-story-lore-pof-spoilers#latest

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@MVP.7961 said:https://puu.sh/xGhsM/1c53d0fab0.pnghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

Excuse me KonnigIT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT LYSSA TOOK IT

Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

Fixing it.

@MVP.7961 said:https://puu.sh/xGi5c/3e04fb76d2.png"It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes - deep, like the colours of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings."

Totally humanoid.

A human with wings, yes. And not even physical wings at that, otherwise the ocean wouldn't be the "physical manifestation" of his "blue wings" - this would imply ethereal wings, like we see on the Margonite Paragons in GW1.

On you quoting Dwayna and Lyssa - I find it funny you go to a single source and proclaim it to be the end all be all. Want them to show humanoid appearance? Look at ANY statue or mural depiction of them.

@MVP.7961 said:https://puu.sh/xG5xu/d3fb7de496.png really though Konnig.

And what does my ancient comment about the globe in the Chantry of Secrets have to do with any of this conversation? Is it about how the gods came to the world of Tyria as gods? Well, humans came from the same place in the Mists.

@MVP.7961 said:Also, there is that lore fact where of the Forgotten:

"Human legends state that the Forgotten were originally brought to Tyria by the Six Gods to serve as the world's custodians during the gods' reforming of the planet, though this has been called into question due to the true history of the gods being revealed. Human records also say that the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1769 BE, though whether this refers to the world or the continent is unknown."

The Forgotten are serpentine worshipers of the Six God. They are not even Humanoid. Yet here you are insisting that ANet did justice to Balthazar. No, they did not. These Gods brought a completely different creature to human beings as well.

I fail to see what this has to do with anything? Naga and centaurs also worshipped the gods to some degree. Nothing ever said that the Six Gods were ever restricted to human followers.

@MVP.7961 said:Need I remind you all that Balthazar is one of the Gods that took down Abaddon, and what do we get? This overgrown Norn potato?

https://puu.sh/xG6b2/32b029300f.png

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Gandara).jpghttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Ascalon).jpghttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Balthazar.pnghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Balthazar.jpg

The similarity is uncanny. It's almost as if they used that statue and art as a reference for how to design Balthazar!

@MVP.7961 said:Look at this video:

All of these were Dervish Avatars of the Gods.And the armor skin we got are these.

https://puu.sh/xGh1Q/b807eaca50.pnghttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dervish

Physical embodiment of God. Which mean this form is his real form

No. Physical embodiment means a representation. An avatar.

Not the real deal.

@Alasia.9502 said:Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be.

You should look at timestamps before you insult others.

I haven't been defending any story in this thread. I defended the model design. Two very different things.

I haven't actually finished PoF, only about 2/3rds through it atm. But so far I've not seen much in the main storyline to be considered "garbage". Minor lines with lore issues, sure, and a questionable choice on PC's part, but not garbage story. I'll see how things fair after The Departing though.

[Harper.4173]

@Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

@Alasia.9502 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

killed off a God. An epic one too!

That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

Is this forbidden to kill a god? Tyrians have already did that, why shouldn't they be allowed to repeat?

People don't seem to understand why we're complaining about "muh Balthazar" - the points are these.

1. It doesn't seem plausible - how he became a generic villain - and a very stereotypical one - in no time. I wanted to see a more complex story line - something along the line of a complex anti-hero that's pushed to do what he does by a set of events - someone you can sympathize with perhaps, someone that's not one dimensional.
2. It was poorly done - the way we kill him. We basically FIGHT him the entire time and overwhelm him. He's the god of war. A clever story would have had us circumvent his strength perhaps and beat him in a different, clever way. Or at least have something more plausible happen. How would I have done it?

Balthazar kills us - we come back to life - he doesn't know. We take the sword from Rytlock. As he fights Kralkatorric to a near stalemate and he's about to kill the dragon we surprise him, ambushing him in the chaos of him fighting the dragon and his troops fighting the undead managing to fatally injure him with the sword he imbued with his own magic in the mists. He turns to us prepared to the PC in disbelief before getting ready to once again slay us but the dragon seizes this opportunity and fells the god, taking its magic for itself.

Why is this better in my opinion?

• because you still technically "kill" the god but do it in a more subtle and not so overpowered way that makes any immersion go away.
• it makes Kralk a more active threat and shows him up - building him up more as the main antagonist of LS4
• functionally it does all of the things their ending did - we're still "godslayer", kralk still has the magic he takes from Balthazar.

[Alasia.9502]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:

https://puu.sh/xGhsM/1c53d0fab0.png

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

Excuse me KonnigIT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT LYSSA TOOK IT

Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

Fixing it.

@MVP.7961 said:

https://puu.sh/xGi5c/3e04fb76d2.png

"It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes - deep, like the colours of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings."

Totally humanoid.

A human with wings, yes. And not even physical wings at that, otherwise the ocean wouldn't be the "physical manifestation" of his "blue wings" - this would imply ethereal wings, like we see on the Margonite Paragons in GW1.

On you quoting Dwayna and Lyssa - I find it funny you go to a single source and proclaim it to be the end all be all. Want them to show humanoid appearance? Look at

ANY

statue or mural depiction of them.

@MVP.7961 said:

https://puu.sh/xG5xu/d3fb7de496.png

really though Konnig.

And what does my ancient comment about the globe in the Chantry of Secrets have to do with any of this conversation? Is it about how the gods came to the world of Tyria as gods? Well, humans came from the same place in the Mists.

@MVP.7961 said:Also, there is that lore fact where of the Forgotten:

"Human legends state that the Forgotten were originally brought to Tyria by the Six Gods to serve as the world's custodians during the gods' reforming of the planet, though this has been called into question due to the true history of the gods being revealed. Human records also say that the Forgotten arrived on Tyria in 1769 BE, though whether this refers to the world or the continent is unknown."

The Forgotten are serpentine worshipers of the Six God. They are not even Humanoid. Yet here you are insisting that ANet did justice to Balthazar. No, they did not. These Gods brought a completely different creature to human beings as well.

I fail to see what this has to do with anything? Naga and centaurs also worshipped the gods to some degree. Nothing ever said that the Six Gods were ever restricted to human followers.

@MVP.7961 said:Need I remind you all that Balthazar is one of the Gods that took down Abaddon, and what do we get? This overgrown Norn potato?

https://puu.sh/xG6b2/32b029300f.png

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Gandara).jpg

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Ascalon).jpg

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Balthazar.png

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Balthazar.jpg

The similarity is uncanny. It's almost as if they used that statue and art as a reference for how to design Balthazar!

@MVP.7961 said:Look at this video:

All of these were Dervish Avatars of the Gods.And the armor skin we got are these.

https://puu.sh/xGh1Q/b807eaca50.png

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dervish

Physical embodiment of God. Which mean this form is his real form

No. Physical embodiment means a representation. An

avatar

.

Not the real deal.

@Alasia.9502 said:Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be.

You should look at timestamps before you insult others.

I haven't been defending any story in this thread. I defended the model design. Two very different things.

I haven't actually finished PoF, only about 2/3rds through it atm. But so far I've not seen much in the main storyline to be considered "garbage". Minor lines with lore issues, sure, and a questionable choice on PC's part, but not garbage story. I'll see how things fair after The Departing though.

And I've seen the whole story, it is utter garbage.

[Alasia.9502]

@Harper.4173 said:

@Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

@Alasia.9502 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MVP.7961 said:I clearly recall in the Wiki of Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, that after Abaddon's fall, Kormir was ascended by the Gods and given the powers of a Goddess. In that article it was also written that Kormir could not absorb the whole of Abaddon's magic (which transformed to truth from secret) and the water aspect was given to Lyssa. It seems this article was altered and changed, but my memory quite clearly remembers this. Also, Kormir got blind by a demon and her determination to seek the truth is what caught the Gods eyes and her ascension, not the fact that she was a human. There was no indication of her being chosen due to her being a human.

There is no truth in that article then. Please provide a link. Nothing ever said Kormir couldn't absorb all of Abaddon's power. We outright see that she does in fact. And while Kormir's eyes were eaten by The Hunger, we were never informed of why Kormir was chosen. We only have guesses.

@MVP.7961 said:There was no information that points out that Abaddon was a human being. There is indeed information of him defeating the God before him, but a lore on Gods fighting and dethroning one another is quite common, so this does not make him a human being automatically. It merely makes Abaddon someone powerful enough to defeat a God and taking his place. It is possible that he may have been mortal, but not a 'human being' from a 'human race'

Except the statue carved by Malchor, seen repeatedly in GW2, gives him clearly human features... Without wings, I might add. And Malchor made statues of the gods' real forms.

There is also a distinct lack of any indication of non-humans on the human home world.

@MVP.7961 said:Once again, I am expressing my disappointment with the ArenaNet's animation and modeling team on screwing up the Gods, and now Balthazar. You know the story and you know how bad it was written and what injustice they did to the Gods. And I am also expressing my disappointment about the Story Writing team for retconning the bejeebers out of the lore, and ignoring so many aspects of the story that it hurts to watch it.They had not previously touched the other gods appearances so I don't know what you're complaining about now...

And... Nothing had been retconned as far as this topic is concerned.

But you're clearly going into this with both false information and pre-conceived opinions on what should be. Such will always prevent one from enjoying something. No matter how good that something may actually be.

Wow, how do you enjoy garbage story? Which PoF has proven to be. They just

killed off a God. An epic one too!

That was the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my entire life, and yet here you all are begging in defense of ANet's garbage storyline.

I am going to be blunt, not only has their quality fallen, their whole game is utterly rubbish and a non-progressive grinding and farming for things that you get again and again. Moreover, it is inefficient and the storyline is something that a demented individual came up with in his/her dreams as they sat sleeping in a public toilet after a drunk night. What. Was. That. Garbage.

'Pre-conceived opinions' proven right. Enjoy your garbage game and story.

Is this forbidden to kill a god? Tyrians have already did that, why shouldn't they be allowed to repeat?

People don't seem to understand why we're complaining about "muh Balthazar" - the points are these.

1. It doesn't seem plausible - how he became a generic villain - and a very stereotypical one - in no time. I wanted to see a more complex story line - something along the line of a complex anti-hero that's pushed to do what he does by a set of events - someone you can sympathize with perhaps, someone that's not one dimensional.
2. It was poorly done - the way we kill him. We basically FIGHT him the entire time and overwhelm him. He's the god of war. A clever story would have had us circumvent his strength perhaps and beat him in a different, clever way. Or at least have something more plausible happen. How would I have done it?

Balthazar kills us - we come back to life - he doesn't know. We take the sword from Rytlock. As he fights Kralkatorric to a near stalemate and he's about to kill the dragon we surprise him, ambushing him in the chaos of him fighting the dragon and his troops fighting the undead managing to fatally injure him with the sword he imbued with his own magic in the mists. He turns to us prepared to the PC in disbelief before getting ready to once again slay us but the dragon seizes this opportunity and fells the god, taking its magic for itself.

Why is this better in my opinion?

• because you still technically "kill" the god but do it in a more subtle and not so overpowered way that makes any immersion go away.
• it makes Kralk a more active threat and shows him up - building him up more as the main antagonist of LS4
• functionally it does all of the things their ending did - we're still "godslayer", kralk still has the magic he takes from Balthazar.

Exactly, the story's execution was so poor, moreover they made Balthazar some angry man who stubbed his little toe on a table's edge. It is absolutely ridiculous, and ArenaNet has seriously dropped its quality in story writing.

It is, once again, garbage.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Alasia.9502 said:And I've seen the whole story, it is utter garbage.

I have now, and I wholeheartedly disagree with you. But this is where opinions come in. It has its faults, yes, but most of them are pretty minor ones.

@Alasia.9502 said:Exactly, the story's execution was so poor, moreover they made Balthazar some angry man who stubbed his little toe on a table's edge. It is absolutely ridiculous, and ArenaNet has seriously dropped its quality in story writing.

It is, once again, garbage.

Balthazar was always prone to anger though:

When the gods walked Tyria a thousand years ago, the Ritualist Kaolai, an old man even then, challenged Balthazar to a game of Nui in exchange for sparing a village that had offended the god through some long-forgotten breach of etiquette. Balthazar laughingly accepted and the game began. Seven days later it ended with Kaolai the winner; the villagers were spared. But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kaolai

Just one example.

They used that pre-established anger to make him an Abaddon 2.0, but they did so in a rather believable manner. Especially since the other gods' immediately stripped him of powers and imprisoned him, rather than letting him calm down first (or at least, that's the implication).

[Thalador.4218]

There was nothing believable in it. Yes, Balthazar, like all the other gods of the Six, is flawed just like the Greek gods were. They aren't perfect, they have many mortal urges and feelings: Lyssa's grief over leaving behind Wren, Dwayna's moment of weakness and love when conceiving Grenth with Malchor, Balthazar's fury when thinking his opponent won by cheating, etc.

Balthazar has a very troubled and violent past with a family where at least one parent was murdered and a demonic half-brother whose sole purpose is to defeat him and supplant him; a sibling who is his vile shadow and mirrors the dark side of war (destruction, slaughter) and combat (treason, treachery, betrayal, deceit, dirty tricks). With that in mind it's understandable that he has some anger issues, but as it was seen in Kaolai's case, he made amends and effectively immortalized Kaolai as an ancestor who has been and is revered by Canthans for dozens of centuries. And in the established, sensible lore of Guild Wars he has become a responsible god of war and patron of warriors, fire elementalists, dervishes and others. He rallied weary soldiers against an unknown threat facing humanity with words and magic of courage and led them to victory himself, making their deeds remembered forever more. He joined Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna and Grenth against Abaddon because the latter went on the warpath and threatened humanity - their and his sacred charge - with his careless handling of magic. Afterwards he and his servants created a "paradise" for warriors and competitive people on the Battle Isles where they could blow off their violence in a controlled environment and even get a shot at becoming champions remembered by all in the Hall of Heroes. He is the Scourge of the Prideful and the Judge of the Powerful; such titles clearly indicate Balthazar wasn't interested in proving he has the biggest D in the entire multiverse and actually looks down braggarts and fools who fall to the sin of pride. A mighty god of war who knows that with power comes responsibility and judges individuals based on that. A person who is more than 2,100 years old, has wielded divinity and the godly wisdom connected to it for more than 2,100 years and would understand the reason that direct confrontation with the Elder Dragons would doom the people he and his divine friends saved and sought to nurture and protect since the very fucking beginning. And that he needs not to go rush at them and swing his mighty sword because he wants to show off - that is pride, and he has no patience and tolerance for the prideful.

^THAT is Balthazar. The raging, whining madman hellbent on slaughtering and burning people is NOT Balthazar. The crazed, unreasonable fool whose pride got the better of him and made him threaten his closest friends and colleagues after more than 2,100 years of working together and having a fair share of adventure they went through together and crises they solved TOGETHER is NOT Balthazar. The idiot who fought and defeated Abaddon for wanting conflict in the world and who was most likely gunning to kill the Elder Dragons as well, only to realize ~1,000 years later that he is conflict and wants to kill the ED (and is willing to murder his friends over the debate) is NOT Balthazar.

I cannot understand how you of all people fail to see this and defend the undefendable. In this horrendous setting, Balthazar was retconned out of existence through and through. He's been merged with Menzies and set lose upon Tyria to pull off a weak Nightfall 2.0 plot and allow ANet to write the incompetent (in their view) gods out of the picture for good.

[MVP.7961]

Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

Fixing it.

Wow we can't even trust official wiki about the lore of the Gods or anyone.

A human with wings, yes. And not even physical wings at that, otherwise the ocean wouldn't be the "physical manifestation" of his "blue wings" - this would imply ethereal wings, like we see on the Margonite Paragons in GW1.

On you quoting Dwayna and Lyssa - I find it funny you go to a single source and proclaim it to be the end all be all. Want them to show humanoid appearance? Look at ANY statue or mural depiction of them.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Gandara).jpghttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Balthazar_mural_(Ascalon).jpghttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Balthazar.pnghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Balthazar.jpg

The similarity is uncanny. It's almost as if they used that statue and art as a reference for how to design Balthazar!

No. Physical embodiment means a representation. An avatar.

Not the real deal.

My bad, I wasn't clear about the humanoid part; I didn't mean the shape because that is clearly humanoid. Rather I meant things like the fact that Melandru had bark-like skin, Dwayna had wings and Abaddon (since you do not want to count his wings) had tentacle-like hair, and Balthazar had his fire. My point is that these Gods had NO features that indicated them being human beings. The only thing close to being 'human' was Dwayna's boobs.Also, if Dervishes do not copy the actual appearance of the Gods, then they will at least get one thing right which is the skin color and element of the Gods since that is easy to copy than, for example, armor.

Also Malchor became blinded by the Gods and only felt their forms, then he sculpted those statues. We cannot say that his sculpture is an accurate representation of the Gods and their skins/looks/faces/etc.

Which brings me back to my initial argument. That Balthazar looks too Norn for a God. All these prior examples and lore representations present a divine figure, and that is not what we got. PoF proved it. All in all, you have not proven wrong the fact that Balthazar is a figure that was worthy of more. PoF has proven to me how ANet has treated Balthazar poorly.

I fail to see what this has to do with anything? Naga and centaurs also worshipped the gods to some degree. Nothing ever said that the Six Gods were ever restricted to human followers.

The fact that Gods have different creatures as their followers, then it implies that the Gods were not human beings but rather benevolent beings who had a humanoid figure. If the Gods were humans these creatures would be revering human beings.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Thalador.4218 said:With that in mind it's understandable that he has some anger issues, but as it was seen in Kaolai's case, he made amends and effectively immortalized Kaolai as an ancestor who has been and is revered by Canthans for dozens of centuries.

And based on Kormir's words, Balthazar was imprisoned shortly if not immediately after threatening the other gods at the council. He never had a chance to make amends but instead had 200 years of imprisonment and having his powers completely stripped. Which means they promoted a new god of war.

That seems reasonable for brewing hatred to me.

@Thalador.4218 said:He joined Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna and Grenth against Abaddon because the latter went on the warpath and threatened humanity - their and his sacred charge - with his careless handling of magic.

At that point, Abaddon was already wanting to oust the other five gods. We don't know whether the five's motivations was because Abaddon threatened humanity / Tyria, or because he threatened them, or both.

@Thalador.4218 said:He is the Scourge of the Prideful and the Judge of the Powerful; such titles clearly indicate Balthazar wasn't interested in proving he has the biggest D in the entire multiverse and actually looks down braggarts and fools who fall to the sin of pride.

This part I got to agree with, but Balthazar still seems to have some of that in PoF. He was brutally looking down on the PC who has become the avatar of pridefulness and self-confidence. This was shown fairly well during The Depature, where when you get Balthazar down to 10% health the PC goes "I don't want to kill you, Balthazar" and Balthazar simply responds with "You won't." before downing the PC again.

Of course, in a bit of irony, so has Balthazar. But that seems realistic. When you've been cutting prideful individuals down to size for over 2,900 years, you're going to get prideful and self-confident yourself.

@Thalador.4218 said:A mighty god of war who knows that with power comes responsibility and judges individuals based on that.

I don't think this was ever actually presented in Balthazar - the responsibility part.

@Thalador.4218 said:A person who is more than 2,100 years old, has wielded divinity and the godly wisdom connected to it for more than 2,100 years and would understand the reason that direct confrontation with the Elder Dragons would doom the people he and his divine friends saved and sought to nurture and protect since the very kitten beginning. And that he needs not to go rush at them and swing his mighty sword because he wants to show off - that is pride, and he has no patience and tolerance for the prideful.

Age does not always make one wise. Balthazar never actually shows to care about the consequences until after they were done. None that I can recall in GW1 texts at least. There's even quite telling that he loves conflict given the Fissure of Woe is a place of eternal conflict.

While I do agree there is some discrepancy, and I do agree that he is a bit too angry sounding throughout PoF (especially in the Kormir-revealed flashbacks, I feel that these are ultimately rather minor. Balthazar may have been honorable, but he was also honorable to a fault, and nothing ever showed that he had foresight.

His actions during PoF itself (and Season 3) is fairly well explained away by his loss of morals, which happened when the other gods stripped him of power. I feel that we're still missing some part of the lore. If the rumors / leaks that the next raid will be in the Fissure of Woe, I expect we'll get those answers then (sadly). And given dat mined weapon skins, it seems likely we'll be going to the Fissure of Woe since there's a partial weapon set modeled after Balthazar's greatsword and the Herald's hammer not accessible in PoF (as best I can tell at least).

his closest friends and colleagues after more than 2,100 years of working together and having a fair share of adventure they went through together and crises they solved

Er... what adventures? what crises? Aside from Abaddon, there's none that we know about. And honestly, we never really got anything about godly relations beyond Wintersday so it's not exactly accurate to say the gods were his "closest friends".

You're starting to put a lot of fanon into it. The sad truth is that we know fairly little about the gods from the get go, so there's a bit of wiggle room - even more when you apply unreliable narrators that ArenaNet loves.

TOGETHER is NOT Balthazar. The idiot who fought and defeated Abaddon for wanting conflict in the world and who was most likely gunning to kill the Elder Dragons as well, only to realize ~1,000 years later that he is conflict and wants to kill the ED (and is willing to murder his friends over the debate) is NOT Balthazar.

He's been merged with Menzies and set lose upon Tyria to pull off a weak Nightfall 2.0 plot and allow ANet to write the incompetent (in their view) gods out of the picture for good.

There were actually some minor hints in GW1 that could make Balthazar being Menzies a realistic thing. It was actually one of my side theories that Balthazar was Menzies - either pretending for the sake of continued conflict, or as a schizophrenic god.

As to a Nightfall 2.0 plot... while Balthazar is clearly an Abaddon 2.0, and that is indeed sad and poor choice, it's not a Nightfall 2.0 plot. There's a large enough difference between the two, imo.

I am also not convinced the gods are written out of the picture just yet. There were a few too many comments of Anet "knowing they'd return to the gods" for this to be the full extent of it. Or so I'd hope.

@MVP.7961 said:

Except that it's wrong - or rather, confusing writing. Lyssa didn't take any of Abaddon's power. Technically even in Nightfall she had the same attributes over water as she does in gw2 - reflective water surfaces.

Fixing it.

Wow we can't even trust official wiki about the lore of the Gods or anyone.

The wikis have always been fan moderated. They always will be. Text will always be written by the fans, and not ArenaNet. This means you can get vandals messing with things, or people who misremember or misinterpret and don't check their sources. This isn't anything new, and something I've been fixing since I've started editing the wikis back in .... 2007? 2008?

@MVP.7961 said:My bad, I wasn't clear about the humanoid part; I didn't mean the shape because that is clearly humanoid. Rather I meant things like the fact that Melandru had bark-like skin, Dwayna had wings and Abaddon (since you do not want to count his wings) had tentacle-like hair, and Balthazar had his fire. My point is that these Gods had NO features that indicated them being human beings. The only thing close to being 'human' was Dwayna's boobs.Also, if Dervishes do not copy the actual appearance of the Gods, then they will at least get one thing right which is the skin color and element of the Gods since that is easy to copy than, for example, armor.

Also Malchor became blinded by the Gods and only felt their forms, then he sculpted those statues. We cannot say that his sculpture is an accurate representation of the Gods and their skins/looks/faces/etc.

Which brings me back to my initial argument. That Balthazar looks too Norn for a God. All these prior examples and lore representations present a divine figure, and that is not what we got. PoF proved it. All in all, you have not proven wrong the fact that Balthazar is a figure that was worthy of more. PoF has proven to me how ANet has treated Balthazar poorly.

About Melandru (and Balthazar): Balthazar is wreathed in fire, but is not made of fire. Would it be so strange for Melandru to have bark growing on her skin? It's an affect of being divine, not being inhuman. About Abaddon: If you look at his statue, he didn't have tentacle hair. The "tentacle hair" was part of his mask.

I would highly disagree that they have "no features that indicated them being human beings". Just look at the statues. They are fully human except for some extra extremities. Abaddon moreso than the rest.

And no, Malchor only became blinded upon doing his final statue. The only god he touched physically was Dwayna, and that was after he finished her statue. It is outright stated that he rested his eyes occasionally while sculpting - just as we look at Kormir in PoF and do not go immediately blind, neither did Malchor.

Balthazar didn't look too norn. Norn look too human. And Balthazar looks more human because he is no longer a god, a major plot point throughout S3 and PoF.

@MVP.7961 said:The fact that Gods have different creatures as their followers, then it implies that the Gods were not human beings but rather benevolent beings who had a humanoid figure. If the Gods were humans these creatures would be revering human beings.

That doesn't imply anything at all, actually. Maybe the first gods were not humans, but Balthazar, Abaddon, Grenth, Kormir, and possibly Lyssa - at least - all were mortals to ascended into godhood. So they had to be something before they were a god. Given their looks, they were most likely humans who ascended into godhood, like Kormir.