Scrapper Oblivion

[Vagrant.7206]

Scrapper has entered a state of oblivion due to PoF, and here are the reasons why:

• Scrapper was never a great option in PvE. It was never a bad option, per se, as its damage wasn't high, nor was it low. It was somewhat tanky and self-sustainy, but not as much as chrono. With the advent of PoF, however, if you want to run a melee engineer, you are better off running holosmith for its much higher damage potential. Theoretically scrapper should occupy a support role in PvE, but right now it simply isn't as good at support as core engineer is.
• Scrapper was necessary if you wanted to PvP as an engineer prior to PoF because of its survivability. Now it's actually a hindrance -- the scourge boon corruptions combined with its poor mobility have made it a liability.
• While I rarely WvW, Scrapper was mainly used for its survivability. Now, as I said, it is a liability when faced against scourges, and it lacks the mobility that holosmith offers.

I hope some ArenaNet devs realize that scrapper is virtually nonexistent in any game mode. It was not future-proofed, and has fared very poorly in the face of the most recent expansion.

I don't have very many thoughts on how to fix this problem, as it's clear from the basic design of scrapper that it was intended for PvP. Now it serves no role in PvP. The "Undo Scrapper Nerfs" thread might offer some useful solutions, but I would recommend that ArenaNet considers some serious reworks to make scrapper have some kind of role in PvE as well:

• For example, gyros need to be critically examined, as their AI makes them a hindrance in many cases. Instead of being the support they seem to be designed to be, their poor AI pathing and wonky behavior result in unreliable support at best. I think the idea of treating gyros like extensions of the engineer would make much more sense -- IE they float around the engineer like a special buff (like the function gyro does when it's idling), rather than acting as its own AI unit. This would remove the irritating AI element and make them more practical without needing extensive redesign.
• The function gyro needs a serious rework. The targeting limitation (need to select who it acts upon) makes it way less useful than it should be. Instead of deploying to help an ally when I need it, I have to stop, click on that ally (assuming it's easy to do so), and then activate. In PvE, the function Gyro should act like Search and Rescue.
• Hammer's damage is fine, but it doesn't offer much to differentiate itself from other engineer weapons. Giving it some improvements to CC (IE 3 leaps on rocket charge) would help with its QoL.
• Traits need to be reexamined in light of HoT nerfs. Traits like Impact Savant are practically a joke considering the nerfs. Many of its other traits are bland and flavorless.
• For the love of god, give it some way of managing the Scourge, like a trait to prevent boon corruption (or downgrades corruptions to strips instead). If it couldn't be corrupted, it might actually be useful in PvP once again. Without some means of surviving the scourge, scrapper will never make a reappearance in PvP.

[Aetatis.5418]

It's okay to have a hard counter as a spec/profession. In this case necro (if you don't spec solely against condis, there is almost no chance on a similar player level).

But unfortunately you are still right.Haven't touched my scrapper since PoF launch.It was already hard vs the condition kitten with chill/bleed reaper and condition revenants. But it was manageable to play scrapper in large scale wvw and do some serious damage diving in melee. (speaking of being in the top 10 dps and total damage dealt if played very aggressivley. ofc in total still only 80% performance compared to the meta specs/professions due to the lack of good group synergies. but still good enough to have 3-4 in a squad in wvw for some sweet mechanics like moving reflects, invis, rezzing, mortar kit on walls)Now (!) there is zero chances.The DMG dropped due to the overpowered PoF specs and going melee is impossible. and the utility, which was niche already, is worth nothing.(btw. condition counterplay: sure, engineer has plenty of clears. But many of them cleanse one condition and it was always e.g. the chill being cleansed, because it got applied last vs a reaper heavy environment. Now vs scourges it's 90% cripple cleanse only).The stability is also an ultra burden vs the amount of corrupts.

Roaming as a scrapper is also pretty much dead.Pve... Ye right... No (I do it occasionally, because I like the way scrapper plays and don't want my scrapper to decompose. But it's not very efficient and not very accepted in the community).

100 points for you mate

[Rezzet.3614]

Scrapper was dead before pof to be fairWas meant to be bruiser but got overnerfed cuz someone decided to nerf the profession Before removing tank amulets

Purityofpurpose

[miriforst.1290]

As i put it in the other scrapper thread:

@miriforst.1290 said:I mostly wvw as a scrapper (i still much prefer it to holosmith there). But the mechanic and gyros promotes a supportive play style while the traits do not (outside of super speed share which isn't even necessarily that good or even special nowadays). And speaking of which, if we were to join a squad we will have to fight over taking yet another guardian (vanilla, DH OR firebrand) , rev or warrior. But when it comes to our support they do not scale.

-Damage scales mostly up to 5 targets hit

-Most support of for example a guardian scales up to 5 targets

-Scrapper gyros like bulwark divide their total support over the players, meaning they don't scale (and purgy has to cleanse one at a time). Its support which effectiveness does not increase with the numbers of potential targets! Sneak gyro has 5 targets but instead competes against veil which has no target limit (im absolutely not promoting the idea of infinite targets sneak gyro here). As an added bonus they are also destructible meaning they scale inversely to the number of enemies unlike normal support which is unaffected until facing spell breakers/scourge (hence the rivers of tears from firebrand regarding the golden globe). In short its a case of 6 zenyatas vs 6 lucios.

-Vanilla engineer support like medkit does not scale well either.

-Vanilla engineer support like tossed elixirs have a smaller aoe, weaker effects than their guardian counterpart (looking at b) and can be blocked/reflected, has a cast time etc.

-The scrapper primary mechanic does not scale with the number of allies/enemies and instead scales inversely with the number of enemies (honestly these days a single crit with a sigil proc blows it into oblivion, not to mention corrupts negating the grandmaster required to make it work at all). So it requires fights that are not 1v1, but not too big to be negated instantly. Also more and more classes are getting alternatives for rezzing through traits (often vanilla, sometimes aoe). You are much more likely to be teleported and revived by a necro than you are to be revived by a scrapper in wvw. And i don't need to mention the revive power of guardianballs.

-Even stuff like water fields can now be handled by firebrands. Actually CC (including both soft and hard + lines), stability, protection, reviving, cleansing, waters, blasts, might stacking, healing, resistance, projectile reflects, aoe stunbreaks, quickness and surprising pressure from burn (when covered by scourges providing corrupts and barriers to the team) can be provided by firebrands. They still have to rely on mesmers for stealth although i expect the next guardian espec might do something about that.

 

 

My suggestion would be to have medic and purgy pulse their effect in an area similar to sneak gyro whithout the need to stop to cast and that bulwark now properly reduces the damage (as the tooltip states) instead of transferring the damage. That would be a start atleast. Of course you also need to balance the numbers of conditions removed after this etc.

Speaking of scaling this is exactly why the scrapper hammer is such a strong defensive mechanism while stuff like barriers and shroud are not considered strong (except barrier scales with numbers of allies usually).

Scaling is also why a scrapper should in theory be strongest at conquest where the fights involve fever people (and also takes place on points where people remain in smashing distance). But even here they are rare.

EDIT: It should be noted that i will not comment on how the balance should be in regards to the almighty support overlords. I'm just saying why we do not fill those slots as well.

Actually drawing parallels to overwatch i think we are zaryas. Regenerating hp, a single target save ally from doom button with limited hp, long cooldown CC (though no graviton...) with personal shields to punish people who burst us at bad moments (like into a rocket charge or shock shield), ways to prevent CC and with low mobility. We even counter genji- i mean thieves pretty well. Would explain why shes my favorite character to play there... Still scrapper is nowhere as powerful as a good zarya.

Actually i consider it a bit of a worrying sign that our elite spec which was designed for pvp (and not only that but one specific mode) does not compete with the elite spec which was arguably intended for pve in that very mode.

[Adamantium.3682]

Totally agree. Scrapper is a dead spec right now. It was obviously meant as a PvP spec, but it can't do that effectively anymore so there's really no benefit to using it and no point besides "well the hammer is fun even if my build is terrible".

I don't think just updating traits to the current power creep is enough. As OP illustrates, the design of Scrapper is superseded by Holosmith. Scrapper may have a little more defensive capability, but not enough to define a whole spec. Clearly it's damage is pointless and when it was once the only reliable way to get Quickness... Holosmith even ruined that.

Scrapper might find a good role as something like a support Guardian. Minimal damage (it shouldn't do great damage anyways) but good group boons/support/healing. Make these things pulse from Gyros or something.

Needs an overhaul. Unfortunately I'm not sure where reworking a HoT elite spec is on Anet's list of priorities, but I have to think it's pretty near the bottom.

[Bish.8627]

Only thing I miss from scrapper on my holo is the stealth elite.

[Zlater.6789]

looks like scrapper was scrapped ;)

[Rezzet.3614]

Scrapper indeed got scrapped, was designed around active defenses and dazes and had both removed, also gyros are useless except for stealth and bulwark toolbelt