Reddit vs Forum

[Menadena.7482]

Why have users go one place and devs someplace else though? If they are seeing reddit as their official channel why not just close up shop here? I would think it would be a bit shortsighted but no more than what the current status is.

[DarcShriek.5829]

So the OP gets five responses from devs and complains that it's not good enough. I don't know what the devs at Anet are like but where I work, but the devs where I work would take one look at this thread and start making comments about how the OP's mother raised him. Seriously 5 times the devs have responded personally and he's still not satisfied. I have to believe that every time a thread like this is started on these forums the chances of devs responding any where decreases. Why should they? If they say anything you cry. If they don't say anything you cry. My reaction would be why bother.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:ANet's communications with their fans are haphazard. Sometimes, they communicate via blog, sometimes via social media, sometimes in this forum, sometimes on Reddit, sometimes via an interview on a gaming site, sometimes on Youtube, etc. There is no single source for information about the game.

This is due to the fact that all of those information portals exist and are used by fans of the game. In order to keep the game in the minds of the player population, ANet has a presence on these portals. This is not only a problem for developers, it's a problem for any business that has customers potentially numbering in the millions.

The problem with the lack of a central clearing house for information about the game ought to be clear, but it apparently isn't. Any player who wants certain information but who for any reason limits the portals he frequents can miss out. This ought to be a concern for any business. Customers are not generally going to feel that the onus is on them to search a dozen (or, frankly, even two) portals for that information. They are going to go to the portal they believe the information ought to be found on. If they don't find it there, they are going to think less of the company. It's a fact that people are going to react negatively to perceived neglect, which makes the issue one of public relations.

This is not to say that devs posting on their own time can't or shouldn't post information about the game on reddit. It's clearly not ANet policy to forbid that, and they therefore can do what they like. It's also not to say that ANet should not provide information on a whole raft of portals, as they are doing. That type of visibility is valuable to them.

However, there is currently no central location where everyone would know to look for information. It would not have to host the information, just a link to posts on those various portals that pertain to things that might be of concern to a member of the community. Cryptic did this with their games a long time ago. They used a game's forum to show links to articles about that game on fan sites, etc. ANet could do this. It wouldn't have to be on this forum. It could be on the game site. It wouldn't have to list every post by every staff member, just one's dispensing information. They could get an intern to do it.

ANet does not have to do this. However, if they don't they are going to continue angering some customers. They might want to think about that.

I feel this is a pretentious over-explanation. In an era where you can Google anything from the palm of your hand, to generalize the community's feelings like that insinuates that community refuses to accept that the current year has widely adopted social media portals that will collect and report their desired news within a reasonable window of time.

But if you're like me, and refuse to use social media to get the info desired pinging on my phone automatically, you should accept that you will have to resort to slightly less modern methods to obtain info, like "word of mouth" or search it out.

I made no statement about the "GW2 community's feelings." You made that up. There is no united GW2 community. Are you denying that some people get upset with ANet about their lack of communication?

You -- and I -- may be willing to accept the consequences of deciding not to use every communications portal in existence. This is not something that every customer will do. If you never have, try talking with people who work in retail. Ask them how reasonable and enlightened the average customer is.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts in this thread. This is a subject we’ve been thinking about, too. I'm Communications Manager for ArenaNet, and I strongly believe in always striving for good and meaningful communications. I feel that our having official forums provides us all -- dev and player alike -- with a valuable medium to accomplish that goal. Like you, I think that a company's official forums absolutely should be a reliable source for official information.

Now, ArenaNet Team members may choose to engage in conversations on Reddit or other places, and that’s totally fine. However, I recognize that many of you are not concerned about those conversations, but are concerned about the fact that essential game information may be posted somewhere else, even though it is relevant to you as a player. For instance, knowing a dev’s favorite profession isn’t critical to you; that's a conversation that could take place anywhere. However, knowing that the team is working on a bug fix, a balance change, or something else that will potentially impact your game experience is critical info. You should be able to get that info here on these forums, even if it’s posted elsewhere, as well.

We’re going to continue to look into how and where we communicate with an eye to potential changes that will broaden our ability to keep you informed. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments on this subject -- they are very informative and helpful.

[FrouFrou.4958]

Prediction how this will go: Devs get told off for being active at reddit which then results at no communication at all (like it was before they started posting there), only red posts will be patch notes and Gaile replying to random topics here and there.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

@FrouFrou.4958 said:Prediction how this will go: Devs get told off for being active at reddit which then results at no communication at all (like it was before they started posting there), only red posts will be patch notes and Gaile replying to random topics here and there.

Not at all. Reddit is a great platform, and devs are welcome to post there. What we need to do as a company is see that official information of value to players is visible here. That benefits everyone.

But hey, your snark has been noted. :)

[Mylerian.9176]

Actually it would be nice to depend on these forums. This is goes for all parts of the game from general announcements to WvW and PvP information. Myself as very active player would like more information period. And a great step toward having that, would be to have all information posted on the official forums first. You can not really depend on a lot of Reddit information as of late, and it would be good to know that the information is actually official. :)

[MedievalThings.5417]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts in this thread. This is a subject we’ve been thinking about, too. I'm Communications Manager for ArenaNet, and I strongly believe in always striving for good and meaningful communications. I feel that our having official forums provides us all -- dev and player alike -- with a valuable medium to accomplish that goal. Like you, I think that a company's official forums absolutely should be a reliable source for official information.

Now, ArenaNet Team members may choose to engage in conversations on Reddit or other places, and that’s totally fine. However, I recognize that many of you are not concerned about those conversations, but are concerned about the fact that essential game information may be posted somewhere else, even though it is relevant to you as a player. For instance, knowing a dev’s favorite profession isn’t critical to you; that's a conversation that could take place anywhere. However, knowing that the team is working on a bug fix, a balance change, or something else that will potentially impact your game experience is critical info. You should be able to get that info here on these forums, even if it’s posted elsewhere, as well.

We’re going to continue to look into how and where we communicate with an eye to potential changes that will broaden our ability to keep you informed. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments on this subject -- they are very informative and helpful.

Thank You !

[Noa.7490]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts in this thread. This is a subject we’ve been thinking about, too. I'm Communications Manager for ArenaNet, and I strongly believe in always striving for good and meaningful communications. I feel that our having official forums provides us all -- dev and player alike -- with a valuable medium to accomplish that goal. Like you, I think that a company's official forums absolutely should be a reliable source for official information.

Now, ArenaNet Team members may choose to engage in conversations on Reddit or other places, and that’s totally fine. However, I recognize that many of you are not concerned about those conversations, but are concerned about the fact that essential game information may be posted somewhere else, even though it is relevant to you as a player. For instance, knowing a dev’s favorite profession isn’t critical to you; that's a conversation that could take place anywhere. However, knowing that the team is working on a bug fix, a balance change, or something else that will potentially impact your game experience is critical info. You should be able to get that info here on these forums, even if it’s posted elsewhere, as well.

We’re going to continue to look into how and where we communicate with an eye to potential changes that will broaden our ability to keep you informed. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments on this subject -- they are very informative and helpful.

Like I said in the previous page there was a huge login problem/constant D/C last week and someone made a thread about it but no dev acknowledged the problem. Well, they didn't acknowledged it here but were quick to respond about it on Reddit, as I found out after searching for info outside the Official Forums. So yes, if something major like that happens and the devs know about it, I'd like to know about it here, on the Official Forums.

[Leo G.4501]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:ANet's communications with their fans are haphazard. Sometimes, they communicate via blog, sometimes via social media, sometimes in this forum, sometimes on Reddit, sometimes via an interview on a gaming site, sometimes on Youtube, etc. There is no single source for information about the game.

This is due to the fact that all of those information portals exist and are used by fans of the game. In order to keep the game in the minds of the player population, ANet has a presence on these portals. This is not only a problem for developers, it's a problem for any business that has customers potentially numbering in the millions.

The problem with the lack of a central clearing house for information about the game ought to be clear, but it apparently isn't. Any player who wants certain information but who for any reason limits the portals he frequents can miss out. This ought to be a concern for any business. Customers are not generally going to feel that the onus is on them to search a dozen (or, frankly, even two) portals for that information. They are going to go to the portal they believe the information ought to be found on. If they don't find it there, they are going to think less of the company. It's a fact that people are going to react negatively to perceived neglect, which makes the issue one of public relations.

This is not to say that devs posting on their own time can't or shouldn't post information about the game on reddit. It's clearly not ANet policy to forbid that, and they therefore can do what they like. It's also not to say that ANet should not provide information on a whole raft of portals, as they are doing. That type of visibility is valuable to them.

However, there is currently no central location where everyone would know to look for information. It would not have to host the information, just a link to posts on those various portals that pertain to things that might be of concern to a member of the community. Cryptic did this with their games a long time ago. They used a game's forum to show links to articles about that game on fan sites, etc. ANet could do this. It wouldn't have to be on this forum. It could be on the game site. It wouldn't have to list every post by every staff member, just one's dispensing information. They could get an intern to do it.

ANet does not have to do this. However, if they don't they are going to continue angering some customers. They might want to think about that.

I feel this is a pretentious over-explanation. In an era where you can Google anything from the palm of your hand, to generalize the community's feelings like that insinuates that community refuses to accept that the current year has widely adopted social media portals that will collect and report their desired news within a reasonable window of time.

But if you're like me, and refuse to use social media to get the info desired pinging on my phone automatically, you should accept that you will have to resort to slightly less modern methods to obtain info, like "word of mouth" or search it out.

I made no statement about the "GW2 community's feelings." You made that up. There is no united GW2 community. Are you denying that some people get upset with ANet about their lack of communication?

You -- and I -- may be willing to accept the consequences of deciding not to use every communications portal in existence. This is not something that every customer will do. If you never have, try talking with people who work in retail. Ask them how reasonable and enlightened the average customer is.

I didn't make anything up, you said it. Just because someone interprets what you say differently than what you're thinking in your head doesn't mean those people are liars.

I'm sure there are posters who revel in the fact that devs host megathreads on Reddit and not on the official forums solely out of spite but that hardly means decisions should be made with those individuals in mind. Same with people who refuse to even touch reddit (for what reasons, I can assume it's partly spite) despite the information being right there and easily searchable.

You don't have to use all communication portals, you just have to use the ones that congregate all the data you're looking for. And I've had the displeasure of working in retail for quite a few years already. We're not discussing the average customer, though.

[Daddicus.6128]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts in this thread. This is a subject we’ve been thinking about, too. I'm Communications Manager for ArenaNet, and I strongly believe in always striving for good and meaningful communications. I feel that our having official forums provides us all -- dev and player alike -- with a valuable medium to accomplish that goal. Like you, I think that a company's official forums absolutely should be a reliable source for official information.

Now, ArenaNet Team members may choose to engage in conversations on Reddit or other places, and that’s totally fine. However, I recognize that many of you are not concerned about those conversations, but are concerned about the fact that essential game information may be posted somewhere else, even though it is relevant to you as a player. For instance, knowing a dev’s favorite profession isn’t critical to you; that's a conversation that could take place anywhere. However, knowing that the team is working on a bug fix, a balance change, or something else that will potentially impact your game experience is critical info. You should be able to get that info here on these forums, even if it’s posted elsewhere, as well.

We’re going to continue to look into how and where we communicate with an eye to potential changes that will broaden our ability to keep you informed. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments on this subject -- they are very informative and helpful.

That's exactly what I've been pushing for in this thread. Thank you very much.

I do think that SOME information comes out here, and on occasion firstly. But, it seems to me that there is a decided lack of communication here.

Problem is hurt feelings, I think. Devs who post here are likely to receive an earful, no matter which side of an argument they're on. And, that shuts people down. So, it's kind of good to have a go-between (like yourself) to "take the hit" for the team.

Here's one specific item that I would like to see regularly and officially addressed here on the forums: logic behind any game changes (after the fact). For example, let's say ANet nerfs a necro skill. A small amount of reasoning that went into the change would go a very long ways. And, if such things were discussed communicated regularly, there might be a whole lot fewer arguments.

Things like that would be good. (And, however, expensive. Someone has to write it up, and their time isn't free. Plus, it probably has to be reviewed.)

Thanks for chiming in, Gaile!

[Daddicus.6128]

@"FrouFrou.4958" said:Prediction how this will go: Devs get told off for being active at reddit which then results at no communication at all (like it was before they started posting there), only red posts will be patch notes and Gaile replying to random topics here and there.

I don't think so. As long as they don't reveal anything under NDA, it should be OK. But, it should be clear that what they say is only official if it SAYS it's official. And, per Gaile's statements, "official" would mean it is expected to be posted here as well. Certainly, there will be missteps, but if the practice is well-known and basically adhered to, then there would be a lot less rancor against ANet for not communicating. And, probably other things, too.

[Mrs Lana.2506]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts in this thread. This is a subject we’ve been thinking about, too. I'm Communications Manager for ArenaNet, and I strongly believe in always striving for good and meaningful communications. I feel that our having official forums provides us all -- dev and player alike -- with a valuable medium to accomplish that goal. Like you, I think that a company's official forums absolutely should be a reliable source for official information.

Now, ArenaNet Team members may choose to engage in conversations on Reddit or other places, and that’s totally fine. However, I recognize that many of you are not concerned about those conversations, but are concerned about the fact that essential game information may be posted somewhere else, even though it is relevant to you as a player. For instance, knowing a dev’s favorite profession isn’t critical to you; that's a conversation that could take place anywhere. However, knowing that the team is working on a bug fix, a balance change, or something else that will potentially impact your game experience is critical info. You should be able to get that info here on these forums, even if it’s posted elsewhere, as well.

We’re going to continue to look into how and where we communicate with an eye to potential changes that will broaden our ability to keep you informed. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments on this subject -- they are very informative and helpful.

At least it's finally being addressed. This was an issue I've had for a LONG time.

This is copy/paste a comment I made on September 20th that accurately describes my feelings about this:

@Miss Lana.5276 said:

@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

@Miss Lana.5276 said:

@"Silent The Gray.3091" said:Just throwing this in here because I feel it needs to be continually addressed:

Why is Reddit more official than the official forums?

It is something I have always wondered about, never can seem to get a straight answer on why Arenanet loves Reddit more than their own forums. It's the equivalent of the CEO of a car company never driving the car his company manufactures and driving the competitors instead. Not only is it bad taste, it shows a lack of respect and loyalty to the company, is there some kind of internal secret reason why Reddit is more official that we just aren't going to be filled in on? If so that's okay by me, I'm just legitimately curious how it makes business sense. From the customer point of view, I'm not entirely sure where I'm supposed to get my updates still to this day, because the place you think you should be getting them, isn't the right place, i.e. the Guild Wars 2 forums SHOULD be the right place, instead it is actually Reddit.

There are actually less updates on the development of the game on the forums than there are on Reddit and that really saddens me. Does Reddit have a better forum system than Arenanet? Is there something wrong with the forum system used here? Maybe Reddit has more resources, though I'd find that difficult to believe. Maybe the development teams at Arenanet hate their own forums so much that they refuse to use them. I have no idea what the reason could be, but I know that from the outside looking in, it just isn't proper. If you were playing World of Warcraft for example, no one in their right mind would think "Hey, I need to get my updates and information for this game from Yahoo Finance." No one in their right mind does that kind of stuff, so why do we do it here?

Maybe they get a lot of funding from Reddit, the players who spend the most money on the game reside on Reddit, or Anet really just doesn't care about their own forums. There can only be so many reasons for their utter hate of their own forums. I do mean hate too, it's an insane ratio of Reddit posts by developers versus official forum posts.

I agree with everything about this post. When something is addressed on reddit and not on the official forums it feels to me like the devs are trying to be sneaky about something by not telling the entire playerbase. I've seen comments by devs about a certain topic on reddit on day 1, but the first dev response I see about it on the forums it's 10+ days later. And if you confront them about this they just ignore it, which makes it all the more aggravating.

Forget signatures, forget thumbs up/down.

THIS

is what needs to be addressed. If this alone is improved in the new forum I will be a happy necro.

EDIT: A great example of this happening

RIGHT NOW

is a dev replying to concerns about the material storage change coming with PoF on

REDDIT

, but

NO ONE

is replying to the topic here.

I saw a developer comment on this a while back (Might even have been MO), although for the life of me I couldn't say where (probably reddit ;-P) but the gist of what I remember is that many/most devs post on their own initiative and quite often on their own time. Anet doesn't require them to post on the official forums, so some of it is personal preference on the part of the developers, and part of it is the ability reddit allows for interactive conversations that are not as viable on the forums. They do try to make sure that important announcements at least start on the forums.

My question is why do they feel the need to actively avoid

their own official forums

? Sure, it's great that they respond, and kudos to them if it's on their own time, but like Silent said, it's the equivalent of the CEO of a car company never driving the car his company manufactures. Wouldn't it make more sense to promote your own website by actually answering questions there instead of going to a third-party site? That wouldn't just encourage communication between devs and players, but would also promote the growth of the

official

forums. Only answering questions on reddit wouldn't encourage growth here at all, actually it's quite the opposite.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Thank you, Gaile.

[STIHL.2489]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

But hey, your snark has been noted. :)

I am so with you on this. Kudos to any staff that would slog it here, given how some people respond, even to staff.

[FrouFrou.4958]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@"FrouFrou.4958" said:Prediction how this will go: Devs get told off for being active at reddit which then results at no communication at all (like it was before they started posting there), only red posts will be patch notes and Gaile replying to random topics here and there.

Not at all. Reddit is a great platform, and devs are welcome to post there. What we need to do as a company is see that official information of value to players is visible here. That benefits

everyone

.

But hey, your snark has been noted. :)

Not so much a snark, but a real worry Gaile. Josh Foreman pretty much disappeared and haven't been seen since the last "incident", even though it was the forums he was posting at the time.

[Mikuchan.7261]

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts in this thread. This is a subject we’ve been thinking about, too. I'm Communications Manager for ArenaNet, and I strongly believe in always striving for good and meaningful communications. I feel that our having official forums provides us all -- dev and player alike -- with a valuable medium to accomplish that goal. Like you, I think that a company's official forums absolutely should be a reliable source for official information.

Now, ArenaNet Team members may choose to engage in conversations on Reddit or other places, and that’s totally fine. However, I recognize that many of you are not concerned about those conversations, but are concerned about the fact that essential game information may be posted somewhere else, even though it is relevant to you as a player. For instance, knowing a dev’s favorite profession isn’t critical to you; that's a conversation that could take place anywhere. However, knowing that the team is working on a bug fix, a balance change, or something else that will potentially impact your game experience is critical info. You should be able to get that info here on these forums, even if it’s posted elsewhere, as well.

We’re going to continue to look into how and where we communicate with an eye to potential changes that will broaden our ability to keep you informed. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments on this subject -- they are very informative and helpful.

Not sure it solves the problem, but reddit is seemingly the place where things happen other than the official forums.So how about having a reddit bot that posts and links dev comments from reddit in a place on the forums?The place would be read only, but people can feel free to follow the link to participate in the discussion or create their own thread about it on the forum.Perhaps you could somehow have the bot write in the appropriate place on reddit to notify that a thread about the subject has been made on the forums as well in case people want to partake in the discussion.Maybe it's a bit of a naive attempt at a solution, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there at least..

[Odinens.5920]

@Vayne.8563 said:

I hope they stop then and no one gets any more information. Would that make you happy?

I personally prefer reddit and would much rather responses be posted there than here personally.

Well, since I don't use reddit, it wouldn't make much of a difference to me. Just like now, I would have no information.

[Gabbynot.2654]

to have devs talk to us here first on the official forums will be most welcomed by all !! just hope it does not go back to the old way ever again . lack of speaking = part of reason for some to have left the game and never come back ;/

[Leo G.4501]

@Odinens.5920 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

I hope they stop then and no one gets any more information. Would that make you happy?

I personally prefer reddit and would much rather responses be posted there than here personally.

Well, since I don't use reddit, it wouldn't make much of a difference to me. Just like now, I would have no information.

But one is out of preference (he prefers reddit but is obviously here posting his preference) while the other is out of spite (you know info is on reddit but you won't open it to look?). It may be equality of outcomes but foregoes equality of opportunity.

[Leo G.4501]

@Mikuchan.7261 said:

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts in this thread. This is a subject we’ve been thinking about, too. I'm Communications Manager for ArenaNet, and I strongly believe in always striving for good and meaningful communications. I feel that our having official forums provides us all -- dev and player alike -- with a valuable medium to accomplish that goal. Like you, I think that a company's

official forums

absolutely should be a reliable source for

official information

.

Now, ArenaNet Team members may choose to engage in conversations on Reddit or other places, and that’s totally fine. However, I recognize that many of you are not concerned about those conversations, but are concerned about the fact that essential game information may be posted somewhere else, even though it is relevant to you as a player. For instance, knowing a dev’s favorite profession isn’t critical to you; that's a conversation that could take place anywhere. However, knowing that the team is working on a bug fix, a balance change, or something else that will potentially impact your game experience is critical info. You should be able to get that info here on these forums, even if it’s posted elsewhere, as well.

We’re going to continue to look into how and where we communicate with an eye to potential changes that will broaden our ability to keep you informed. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments on this subject -- they are very informative and helpful.

Not sure it solves the problem, but reddit is seemingly the place where things happen other than the official forums.So how about having a reddit bot that posts and links dev comments from reddit in a place on the forums?The place would be read only, but people can feel free to follow the link to participate in the discussion or create their own thread about it on the forum.Perhaps you could somehow have the bot write in the appropriate place on reddit to notify that a thread about the subject has been made on the forums as well in case people want to partake in the discussion.Maybe it's a bit of a naive attempt at a solution, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there at least..

I think it can definitely be possible with both bots and community efforts.

If they use a bot to corral all the dev posts on Reddit and put them in a thread, it'd only take a handful of Reddit frequenters who also have accounts here to just crosspost useful information to this board. This is sort of done now but humans cherry pick info that is important to them.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

When I talk to new employees, I often mention this: Anything that appears on our official forums is ported to Reddit and other media in a matter of minutes. This is something we have noted, and it's a welcome (and greatly appreciated!) "value add" for any team member's time. By that I mean that time spent posting on the official forums is time well spent, and the word -- or The Word™ ;) -- will make it out to the larger playerbase through the kind help of members who spot a comment here and share it more widely. (Again, that is something we greatly appreciate!) In the end, posting here is sort of like broadcasting in multiple channels. :)

I don't mean that any other forum or media should be neglected. But I do think that when we're sharing important info, there's a huge benefit to sharing it here, first.

[Carighan.6758]

Frankly, for most purposes I'd prefer if the subreddit were the "official" channel of feedback. It has a few key upsides:

• Dark mode via Reddit Enhancement Suite. This forum sears my eyes with it's color scheme.
• Tree-style for comments allows multiple discussions to branch off from a single topic and run in parallel without making each other unreadable. On these forums you need to do the usual old-school thing of always reminding everyone to please not go off-topic or make a separate thread.
• Mixed content with filter-able tags. If these forums were Discourse it'd be alright, but I don't like the subforum-based views any longer. I prefer everything in one giant forum and being able to filter as I want.
• Both a pro (for the players) and a con (for the devs), on reddit posts will not be easily removed. That is to say, if community reactions are majorly negative, the thread won't end up neutered with everyone's opinion removed. Sure, in theory it'd be nicer if everyone behaves and post their opinion in a constructive manner, but I feel the information how much "non-civil" feedback there was is still important. At the very least, you can always see the (removed) on reddit. Something you cannot see here, you can't know how many posts were purged from a thread.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

If someone can't voice their negative opinion without hostility they shouldn't paticipate in the discussion imo.

[Carighan.6758]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:If someone can't voice their negative opinion without hostility they shouldn't paticipate in the discussion imo.

Yeah but for understanding the general sentiment it helps to see that there was a (now removed) hostile opinion there. Also, I think people often underestimate just how strictly policed these forums are. Hostility is rarely needed to score points, all you need is a dissenting opinion.