Character Progression - Increased Traitlines for more Build Variety

[Orpheal.8263]

Ever since GW2 started, I've asked me, why does ANet limit the Build Diversity of their Classes to just only lettign us have 3 Trait Lines to use from maximum 5 Traitlines, which each Class has. There there is unused potential for more, should be more then obvious for everyone, because with a simple brainstorming should be everyone able to give each Class at least easily 2, if not more additional Traitlines that could be used to enhance and expand the Core Classes further, as part of Character Progression, that our Characters learn over time new fields of techniques, that they haven't learned before, that then can be used to specialize into them via Traits to change thios way the Gameplay of your Class to those new chooseable options you learned.

I wanna show you this with Thief as example, how far you could easily go with this and add with a bit more Character Progression here alot more Build Variety for the Classes.

Currently the Thief Class has 5 Traitlines - Shadow Arts, Trickery, Deadly Arts, Critical Strikes and Acrobatics

Shadow Arts is focused on Stealth, Deceptions, causing Blindness and Self SustainDeadly Arts is focused on DPS, Conditions, Traps and some offensive Steal ImprovementsCritical Strikes is focued on Critical Hits and ther Chance of obtaining it, or Effects that happen based on Critical Hits in combo with gettign Fury, which in return helps landing easier critical Hits and Signets as like Critical Damage, so kind of also a bit DPS could you say in the end.Acrobatics is focused on Evasion (Dodge Rolls), Endurance Regain, Stun Breaks and Movement Speed and a bit Initiative Regain based on EvasionTrickery is focused on Steal, Initiative and Tricks

Now when you look onto these 5 Traitlines, don't you miss there something for the Thief, that could be part of their Character Progression? I do and can name easily 2 Traitlines, that would do fit for the Thief Class to expand on for more Build Variety and Character Progression.

Dexterity is focused on Shadow Steps, Self Defense, Trap Control and Boon Stealing/Sharing/DurationsCruelty is focused on Venoms, Condition Effects/Durations, Disarmaments via Steal/Hard CCs and Soft CCs

With these two examples you can easily see, that these two new Traitlines would cover then things, that haven't been covered before by any of the other original first 5 Traitlines, thus giving the Class more Build Diversity through them and the feel of Character Progression, because there would exist two new ways how to specialize the Thief in two different new ways that weren't possible before.

The same could and should be naturally done with all other Classes as well.

If you would get asked now, what kind of 2 additional Traitlines would you like to see for your Class, I'd like to see your answers here now, which kind of 2 Traitlines that would be and for what exactly they should be aiming for to improve the mentioned Class in your view.I'd also like to get to know from you, if you would agree with it with a simple yes , or no answer, if you would like to see the Traitline Limit getting increased from 3 to 4 useable Traitlines, should ANet increase the total amount from 5 to 7 Traitlines.

Me personally, I'd say, yes, increase the limit to 4, (including rebalancing the existing Traitlines on the fact that now 4 lines can be used together), because if we woudl have 7 chooseable lines from which we could use then 4 Traitlines, instead of our current have 5 lines and use 3 of them-model, we would have more build diversity with this and more build options, with that each class could become potentially more useful in all game modes.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

Death Magic, Soul Reaping, Spite, Scourge.Make it happen.

[Orpheal.8263]

So in other words, you want just the Elite Specializations not to have to use up one Traitline, but instead let them work as an own 4th Traitline?

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

@"Orpheal.8263" said:So in other words, you want just the Elite Specializations not to have to use up one Traitline, but instead let them work as an own 4th Traitline?

Pretty much. I think Elite Spec should just be an "enhancement" of the class as it pretty much is.Whether it's Deadeye/Daredevil or Scrapper/Holosmith or Berserker/Thief Wannabe, it's pretty much just an enhance way of playing the core class.Should not take up a trait line in my honest opinion.

[EdgarMTanaka.7291]

Here is my take on why it haven't and won't happen.

Sure there will be more options but still there will just be a single best build anyway. It won't change much anyway, people will still think that there are no build diversity.

The more options there are the harder the game gets to balance, the game at the moment had a big balance problem as it is, I doubt that they wanna make it worse.

It would be a lot of resources for something that won't make a big difference and it will give balance team even more problem.

[Orpheal.8263]

Hmm somethintg I could agree with you Ayumi.Would be at least sure worth it to test that out

@ Edgar: if this pessimistic opinion is your mindset, then I think under your opinion shpould have Anet better never even have started first with implementating Elite Specs, because they do literally the same nearly, as what I suggest here. The only difference between this and my thread here is, that I want to do something with this idea for specificly the Core Classes.

It is for me no question about - what of those added options might shake up eventualyl the meta and might become a new "best build"If ANet would let themself get stopped by such pessimism each time, they want to add some new content, then we would basicalyl get to see never anything new...

[artemis.6781]

You do know we used to be able to use every traitline as long as you choose wisely? I miss those days because some grand masteries really suck.

[Orpheal.8263]

@artemis.6781 said:You do know we used to be able to use every traitline as long as you choose wisely? I miss those days because some grand masteries really suck.

If i understand you right here, then I must say to this, that what you mention here is a matter of Class Balance, which isn't right now the topic here.Because sure there were times, where you could take basically any traitline, and in most cases you still can do... however I also know that there are still traitlines in this game, that are by their design sadly so mandatory for the class, that the class is most likely uncompetitive to even unplayable in the current situation, if you don#t use these specific traitlines.

But the topic here now is the question, if you would find it ok, if ANet would increased in regard of character progression for the Core Classes the amount of Traitlines from 5 to 7 and would enable us to have 1 line more in usage (and if yes, what kind of ideas you eventually have for the other professions, which i haven't named here due to topic size reasons, cause 1 class is enough to show an example)

[artemis.6781]

I totally agree with you in the fact that it feels like we get limited sometimes. Take necro for example. You almost have to take soul reaping along with your elite spec. And I love the idea of using 4 traitline! Make it happen Anet! Please! ?

[Larenc.1269]

We had a 4th trait line it caused to many problems so they removed it with the new trait system. Think classes are poorly balanced now? Well back then necro was practically unkillable Mesmer was tankyer then heavy armor classes warriors could 1 shot you guardians could burn you down instantly the list goes on and on

gw2 is easy mode nowadays so no need to unbalance it further.

Honestly what they need to do is bring back Vanquisher mode from gw1 It send all the new players to rehab because its "to hard" XD

[ThomasC.1056]

Hello !

Thanks for your idea. My answer is "why not ?"

You may think that's not really yes or no, but here's the reason. When HoT and elite specs came out, the elite spec was a way to provide a specific flavour to a class, and the traitline was designed as such. With PoF came a step forward : in the new elite traitlines, traits were roughly sorted with 3 main ideas (like, "new mechanic", "better sustain", "condi improvement") etc. I personnaly think it's the good way to design a traitline : each traitline should match 1 or 2 generic purposes (like, direct damage, buff, condis, raw heal, etc.) with a split between specific buffed facets of the gameplay. Unfortunately, core traitlines are still often awkward, and didn't have that polish.

All of this to say : I'm not against having more traitlines, for more choice and diversity, but I see the revamp of core traitlines as a mandatory prerequisite.

[Orpheal.8263]

Sure, the clean up of the current core traitlines surely woudl hel pin the end defining better, what kind of traits can be added for new traitlines. That prerequisite you speak of can lead to the current traitlines gettign their effects better sortated , so that each line becomes clearer for what exactly it is there for your class.You can see already in my thief example, there there are also under the thief here and there some smaller cross over in what a traitline does, where I think , it would be better to put those effects that are shared within like 2 traitlines into just one general traitline and makign that line specificly resposnible for the effect, like in the case with Thief having traits that affect Steal ffects within two traitlines.

Best example how it shoudl be more like on the other had is Critical Strikes, this traitlines is for this class so 100% clear focused on just being responsible only for Critical Hits and Critical Damage, that you find nowhere else in any other traitline some traits, that have anything to do with these two specifications. You will always know, as a thif, that wen you want to booost yoir Critical gameplay, then you have to use Critical Strikes as your go to traitline that is mainly responsible for this.

I wish ANet would have given the Core Classes som more polish first, before implementating with HoT the E Specs and havign done before of that first the huge condition system change desaster that they have kept unchanged for the last 2+ years, until they fixed it finally with the latest patch to some extend, that you can say, it was a first stp into the right direction.

[Edelweiss.4261]

I'm always in favor of more build variety, but I don't think this will be implemented(at least for now). I think they'd be more likely to fill out those holes you mentioned as elite specs. Perhaps once there are more elite specs, they might allow a fourth trait line, but, for now, I think we are stuck with three.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Ayumi Spender.1082 said:

@"Orpheal.8263" said:So in other words, you want just the Elite Specializations not to have to use up one Traitline, but instead let them work as an own 4th Traitline?

Pretty much. I think Elite Spec should just be an "enhancement" of the class as it pretty much is.Whether it's Deadeye/Daredevil or Scrapper/Holosmith or Berserker/Thief Wannabe, it's pretty much just an enhance way of playing the core class.Should not take up a trait line in my honest opinion.

Someone who does not want the Elite mechanics would have one less trait line than someone who does. This would remove what little opportunity costs exist for an Elite build vs a core-only build. For the eleventy-fifth time on these boards, the game needs more opportunity costs, not less.

The OP's suggestion is not a good idea because it adds more power creep. However, at least it retains some opportunity cost with the idea of needing to not choose 3, 4 or 5 of 7, 8 or 9 lines. Current trait lines opportunity costs, of course, vary depending on which XPac's one owns. The choices are either:

• Pick 3 of 5 (core only)
• Pick 3 of 6 (core plus one XPac only)
• Pick 3 of 7 (core plus both)

[ReaverKane.7598]

I kind of agree with this, we could keep the normal specs (minus the "core" one) plus a few new ones, as enhancements.And use the old "class Mechanic" trait like (ie: Virtues on Guard, Arcane on Ele, Beastmaster on Ranger) as the "core" Elite line when not using Elite specs.Also balancing the core lines to be closer to the actual Elites would increase the number of choices.All in all, Elite specs (like most of the systems implemented with HoT) is still very rough and could use some refinement. Especially in ways that will open the future elites to be more creative (like for example have a specific thing you equip for elite weapon skills, allowing us to use elite weapons independently. This would also allow them to add new skills on the "core" weapons for future elites, allowing the player to pick whether he wants to use the original or the new skills)

[Leo G.4501]

@Orpheal.8263 said:@ Edgar: if this pessimistic opinion is your mindset, then I think under your opinion shpould have Anet better never even have started first with implementating Elite Specs, because they do literally the same nearly, as what I suggest here. The only difference between this and my thread here is, that I want to do something with this idea for specificly the Core Classes.

Not really a pessimistic view, just a realistic view.

Back before elite specs and before you were limited to 3 trait lines, people mixed and matched parts of each trait line and while it had its own spin on diversity, the problem with it was that the options' capabilities were kneecapped and stuff like Grandmaster traits were mostly all crap except for a very few exceptions.

To make build diversity greater, you need many good options while also limiting your amount of choices so you can't pick all those good options. While I feel diversity can be better, its not absent or that lacking either. I can have a core guardian build, 2 dh builds and 1 firebrand (and another being worked on) and while stuff may not be meta, that doesn't mean the builds are bad, just limited because only a couple (or fewer) of builds per class can truly be meta.

Your problem is the meta, not diversity. Because meta is basically anti-diversity and there's nothing you can really do about that. If you try to fix it, those plethora of meta builds you made with your efforts will accomplish the exact same thing but perhaps with a slightly different particle fx pattern.

@Orpheal.8263 said:If ANet would let themself get stopped by such pessimism each time, they want to add some new content, then we would basicalyl get to see never anything new...

Try not to flatter yourself too much and be prepared for criticism.

[EdgarMTanaka.7291]

@Orpheal.8263 said:Hmm somethintg I could agree with you Ayumi.Would be at least sure worth it to test that out

@ Edgar: if this pessimistic opinion is your mindset, then I think under your opinion shpould have Anet better never even have started first with implementating Elite Specs, because they do literally the same nearly, as what I suggest here. The only difference between this and my thread here is, that I want to do something with this idea for specificly the Core Classes.

It is for me no question about - what of those added options might shake up eventualyl the meta and might become a new "best build"If ANet would let themself get stopped by such pessimism each time, they want to add some new content, then we would basicalyl get to see never anything new...

Not really the same thing, by adding an elite spec gives you new options and ways to play. Not only that it gives you new traits, it gives you new weapons, new mechanic and new skills. By just adding another spec slot you just make the game harder to balance.I am not saying that Anet shouldn't listen toy your idea, I am no way near a game programmer so if they think it is a good idea I wouldn't mind if they tried it. But I do doubt that they will do it because of these reasons I gave, but I can be wrong.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Not a good idea. Bunker builds Will get too much sustain, and glass Cannon builds gets that extra sustain line.Tempest example in pvp: basic auramancer traits (water, earth and tempest). Kinda balanced i think, now think about when this sustain build gets Air line as well.. whole team Gets regen, vigor, protection, Fury, switness, healing and Shock aura every 5 second. Not so balanced anymore

[Kyon.9735]

@"EdgarMTanaka.7291" said:Here is my take on why it haven't and won't happen.

Sure there will be more options but still there will just be a single best build anyway. It won't change much anyway, people will still think that there are no build diversity.

The more options there are the harder the game gets to balance, the game at the moment had a big balance problem as it is, I doubt that they wanna make it worse.

It would be a lot of resources for something that won't make a big difference and it will give balance team even more problem.

This exactly. Regardless of how many trait lines are available to take, there will always be optimal ones to run. And they're already having a hard time balancing with just 3 trait lines, the power creep will definitely kill PvP and WvW if we add a 4th line.

Unless you're one of the players who'd say "F*ck PvP and WvW. I'm selfish and only care about PvE", you definitely wouldn't want more powercreep.