I understand now...why Core players were upset with HoT.

[Taltevus.3289]

Played various power builds for Mesmer...and I see fully now. I defended Chrono during HoT becasue it was different but, now it's just. I get it now. The pay to win power-creep is REAL.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Taltevus.3289 said:Played various power builds for Mesmer...and I see fully now. I defended Chrono during HoT becasue it was different but, now it's just. I get it now. The pay to win power-creep is REAL.

You Are Awake

'And You Will Know The Truth,And The TruthWill Set You Free'

[Sharen Graves.1276]

And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

[Vayne.8563]

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

[Taltevus.3289]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

[Vayne.8563]

@Taltevus.3289 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

[Les.4872]

Of course they're better. The elite specs improve on the aspects or changes the gameplay of each class and if it's worse than the core class then it's probably a bad spec or it changes the gameplay significantly enough that the core class and the elite specs can both be played differently (core s/d thief, d/p daredevil and p/p deadeye). Some classes are balanced better than others but in the case of mesmer there is no reason for you to be playing core because both Chrono and Mirage improve on what the mesmer was already good at. Just because the specific class you played core builds with is bad doesn't mean others are also terrible. Elite specs give class variety without the need to add more classes.

[Rodzynald.5897]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Taltevus.3289 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

Actually I don't see much of HoT specs, maybe that's because they melt most of the time once they start to fight with PoF specs.And I still cannot understand how people say that pvp may be "fairer for PvP than other MMOs". I am currently playing Tera and the pvp there is way better, I get the same feeling, the same good vibes coming from it as back at GW2 vanilla. Mostly just because I know that most classes are not capable of gimmicks and shenanigans or passive savings procs like in here. Once you screw up, you die, just how it should be. I really wish they made at least ONE weekend or week of turned off elite specs for pvp between seasons, so that we can roll with core on unranked and get crazy with creativity. See how that works out, it might be a good learning experience.

[Vayne.8563]

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Taltevus.3289 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

Actually I don't see much of HoT specs, maybe that's because they melt most of the time once they start to fight with PoF specs.And I still cannot understand how people say that pvp may be "fairer for PvP than other MMOs". I am currently playing Tera and the pvp there is way better, I get the same feeling, the same good vibes coming from it as back at GW2 vanilla. Mostly just because I know that most classes are not capable of gimmicks and shenanigans or passive savings procs like in here. Once you screw up, you die, just how it should be. I really wish they made at least ONE weekend or week of turned off elite specs for pvp between seasons, so that we can roll with core on unranked and get crazy with creativity. See how that works out, it might be a good learning experience.

Oh look what I found, a link from the Tera forums. This guy would disagree with you:

https://board.tera.gameforge.com/index.php/Thread/69738-PvP-and-Balance/

[Toron.4856]

core war and core thief > auramancer, reaper, scrapper, berserker, dhand core war and core thief at least = if not > chronomancer and daredevil

[Taltevus.3289]

@"Les.4872" said:Of course they're better. The elite specs improve on the aspects or changes the gameplay of each class and if it's worse than the core class then it's probably a bad spec or it changes the gameplay significantly enough that the core class and the elite specs can both be played differently (core s/d thief, d/p daredevil and p/p deadeye). Some classes are balanced better than others but in the case of mesmer there is no reason for you to be playing core because both Chrono and Mirage improve on what the mesmer was already good at. Just because the specific class you played core builds with is bad doesn't mean others are also terrible. Elite specs give class variety without the need to add more classes.

The problem with what you've said is this.MesmerChronomancerMirage

When Chrono came out Mesmer should have been buffed so Chronomancer wouldn't have to have extreme mechanics juxtaposed to Mesmer.Now...onto Mirage.Mesmer and Chrono should have been buffed again to keep Mesmer as an entire idea, image, concept more uniform across playing it.In this way you get more of a side-load kit vs a, "1 of things is not like the other, one of these things is better", across the entire profession.This should have been done for all of the professions.

Playing an Elementalist, Tempest, or Weaver should be a uniform familiarity and performance output between one mode or the other.The thing you aren't seeing is that The Elite Specs are not augmenting what's already there. They are mostly just adding on top of it.You can see the problem is as I say becasue you could not mix and mingle a HoT and PoF trait line and get something not grossly over performing. If the core traits were re aligned...then this ALSO means that if you don't pick one of the Elite trait lines you would not be laughably under performing. This is how it should be.

You can't do this though when you split the idea of a profession into these Gated $ trait lines.

Chrono should have called for a complete re-balance of all mesmer trait lines. People keep going on about relevancy and transformation...then lets update the core specs to be on equal performance? Why don't they get to transform and evolve too?Mirage should have called for a complete re-balance of Chrono and Mesmer trait lines such that Chrono, Mirage, and Mesmer traits can be used uniformly.To do this though would have meant again...I repeat keeping the idea of the entire class cohesive and not doing what we have now...pay up to win...win what I don't know but, it's obvious they are grossly out of line measured against core trait lines.

I think there would be more diversity if the skew from Gw2 to PoF was completely leveled such that The complete idea of a class is ALL of it's trait lines combined however we as players can only channel 3 aspects of that entire homogenized idea at a time. This means Chrono should have given something to Mesmer and Mirage should have brought gifts to Chrono and Mesmer.

[Morwath.9817]

Ooo? Buff Chrono?Noooooo, smack Mirage down!

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Morwath.9817 said:Ooo? Buff Chrono?Noooooo, smack Mirage down!

Pls no more power creep...

And the only reason some core builds are viable is because of more power creep.

S/d core thief = double stealCore warrior = might makes rightCore hammer radiance guardian = all the traits that add stat modifiers to retaliation to the point that these guys can take Valkyrie

These builds would have been ludicrous in vanilla and maybe even in post chronobunker/viper rev HoT. This game has gone to hell

[Les.4872]

@Taltevus.3289 said:

@"Les.4872" said:Of course they're better. The elite specs improve on the aspects or changes the gameplay of each class and if it's worse than the core class then it's probably a bad spec or it changes the gameplay significantly enough that the core class and the elite specs can both be played differently (core s/d thief, d/p daredevil and p/p deadeye). Some classes are balanced better than others but in the case of mesmer there is no reason for you to be playing core because both Chrono and Mirage improve on what the mesmer was already good at. Just because the specific class you played core builds with is bad doesn't mean others are also terrible. Elite specs give class variety without the need to add more classes.

The problem with what you've said is this.MesmerChronomancerMirage

When Chrono came out Mesmer should have been buffed so Chronomancer wouldn't have to have extreme mechanics juxtaposed to Mesmer.Now...onto Mirage.Mesmer and Chrono should have been buffed again to keep Mesmer as an entire idea, image, concept more uniform across playing it.In this way you get more of a side-load kit vs a, "1 of things is not like the other, one of these things is better", across the entire profession.This should have been done for all of the professions.

Playing an Elementalist, Tempest, or Weaver should be a uniform familiarity and performance output between one mode or the other.The thing you aren't seeing is that The Elite Specs are not augmenting what's already there. They are mostly just adding on top of it.You can see the problem is as I say becasue you could not mix and mingle a HoT and PoF trait line and get something not grossly over performing. If the core traits were re aligned...then this ALSO means that if you don't pick one of the Elite trait lines you would not be laughably under performing. This is how it should be.

You can't do this though when you split the idea of a profession into these Gated $ trait lines.

Chrono should have called for a complete re-balance of all mesmer trait lines. People keep going on about relevancy and transformation...then lets update the core specs to be on equal performance? Why don't they get to transform and evolve too?Mirage should have called for a complete re-balance of Chrono and Mesmer trait lines such that Chrono, Mirage, and Mesmer traits can be used uniformly.To do this though would have meant again...I repeat keeping the idea of the entire class cohesive and not doing what we have now...pay up to win...win what I don't know but, it's obvious they are grossly out of line measured against core trait lines.

I think there would be more diversity if the skew from Gw2 to PoF was completely leveled such that The complete idea of a class is ALL of it's trait lines combined however we as players can only channel 3 aspects of that entire homogenized idea at a time. This means Chrono should have given something to Mesmer and Mirage should have brought gifts to Chrono and Mesmer.

I disagree. First question is how would you even balance like that? Mirage bring gifts for Chrono and core Mes? Like how even. Chrono and Mirage ARE the upgrades but at the end of the day they are also Mesmers at the same time but because they are elite specs they get access to new skills and utilities that you can play around it. So if you wanna buff the Mesmer you're already just buffing Chrono and Mirage. Just think about it, the only reason Mirage is so strong right now is because it can use the Mesmer Dueling traitline effectively with the abundance of gap closing abilities. How would you buff the Core Mesmer alone then without touching the Mirage? You can't because they are one and the same and no playstyle for the mesmer supports the use of 3 vanilla traitlines for max effectiveness. Honestly you can argue this is just a class design problem with the mesmer and it's elite specs since all the elite specs for mesmer just improves the mesmer as a whole in terms of utility (chrono) and damage (mirage). When you look at thief however you can see that the vanilla traits synergyzes with each other in a way that taking 3 of the same vanilla traits can be a build as effective as or more effective than an elite spec build. And so you might be wondering, why can't that be the case for my beloved mesmer? It just isn't because of the way it was designed and just because your fav class isn't relevant as a core spec in pvp, it doesnt mean that it is p2w. There are a lot of good vanilla builds in pvp currently, namely the s/d core thief, core warrior, radiant hammer guard and fresh air ele. Also the effectiveness of a build relies largely on the skill of the player so there's that too.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@Toron.4856 said:core war and core thief > auramancer, reaper, scrapper, berserker, dh, herald, renegade, deadeye, soulbeast, weaver.and core war and core thief at least = if not > chronomancer and daredevil

Fixed up a bit more.

[Rodzynald.5897]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Taltevus.3289 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

Actually I don't see much of HoT specs, maybe that's because they melt most of the time once they start to fight with PoF specs.And I still cannot understand how people say that pvp may be "fairer for PvP than other MMOs". I am currently playing Tera and the pvp there is way better, I get the same feeling, the same good vibes coming from it as back at GW2 vanilla. Mostly just because I know that most classes are not capable of gimmicks and shenanigans or passive savings procs like in here. Once you screw up, you die, just how it should be. I really wish they made at least ONE weekend or week of turned off elite specs for pvp between seasons, so that we can roll with core on unranked and get crazy with creativity. See how that works out, it might be a good learning experience.

Oh look what I found, a link from the Tera forums. This guy would disagree with you:

https://board.tera.gameforge.com/index.php/Thread/69738-PvP-and-Balance/

You give me one thread with just a handful of players discussing on it? Sorry, an exception is not a status quo, besides, it smells like l2p issue. I would rather pick a heck strong class in one thing than something that has an access to multiple means of fighting at the same time. I've noticed what is happening, but at least I rest assured that what I fight won't suddenly go passively invulnerable the moment I am about to land a killing blow, or use some skill that gives you mobility, can't be hit while doing it and heals at the end-sort of thing. Also I don't mind 1 shots as long as they can be 1 shotted themselves.This would straighten things up a bit, to build classes around one specific thing and branch out around them, instead of slapping everything on it. As I've stated many times before, vanilla GW2 had more risk and reward to it. There was no rinse and repeat for eternity (except cele ele, that was a mistake).

[Vayne.8563]

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Taltevus.3289 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

Actually I don't see much of HoT specs, maybe that's because they melt most of the time once they start to fight with PoF specs.And I still cannot understand how people say that pvp may be "fairer for PvP than other MMOs". I am currently playing Tera and the pvp there is way better, I get the same feeling, the same good vibes coming from it as back at GW2 vanilla. Mostly just because I know that most classes are not capable of gimmicks and shenanigans or passive savings procs like in here. Once you screw up, you die, just how it should be. I really wish they made at least ONE weekend or week of turned off elite specs for pvp between seasons, so that we can roll with core on unranked and get crazy with creativity. See how that works out, it might be a good learning experience.

Oh look what I found, a link from the Tera forums. This guy would disagree with you:

https://board.tera.gameforge.com/index.php/Thread/69738-PvP-and-Balance/

You give me one thread with just a handful of players discussing on it? Sorry, an exception is not a status quo, besides, it smells like l2p issue. I would rather pick a heck strong class in one thing than something that has an access to multiple means of fighting at the same time. I've noticed what is happening, but at least I rest assured that what I fight won't suddenly go passively invulnerable the moment I am about to land a killing blow, or use some skill that gives you mobility, can't be hit while doing it and heals at the end-sort of thing. Also I don't mind 1 shots as long as they can be 1 shotted themselves.This would straighten things up a bit, to build classes around one specific thing and branch out around them, instead of slapping everything on it. As I've stated many times before, vanilla GW2 had more risk and reward to it. There was no rinse and repeat for eternity (except cele ele, that was a mistake).

I gave you one thread out of the first 1 second I did a search on it. If you're denying that's the only thread, then I don't know what to tell you. It takes a minimum amount of effort on anyone's part to find complaints about balance in games of any kind.

More to the point, with the whole 2 upvotes you've gotten in this thread it doesn't really look like you have wide scale community support for what you're actually saying. A couple of people agree with you. I wonder how this post would fair on reddit, or if downvotes were accepted.

To put it bluntly, I can't think of any MMO that doesn't add some power creep of some kind in an expansion and expansions never made a game pay to win. Pay to win has always referred to the cash shop, and micro transactions, not buying the next installment of a game. By that definition every single MMO would be pay to win, and the word itself would lose all meaning.

Pay to win, as a term, exists to let people know what's a legit MMO and which MMO you can buy power in the cash shop. In BDO for example, the person with the most healing potion wins, which can be bought in the cash shop, making BDO a pay to win game. You have to keep paying to buy more pots. In Guild Wars 2, you have to buy an expansion to stay current, same with every MMO on the planet.

People say I'm a white knight, but this post doesn't seem to have a lot of support behind it.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

**_> @Rodzynald.5897 said:As I've stated many times before, vanilla GW2 had more risk and reward to it. There was no rinse and repeat for eternity (except cele ele, that was a mistake).

_**Ask the company then to implant the Fire + Air Sigils , but the 9 sec cd version that could do 1900-2300 damage . And the Ogre Gear Set , where the Rock Pet could do 1700 crit per hit (while having huge armor(like Knight Armor) and 6-8k hp
Or 100% haste :P

EditL for the first 10 months of the games , you couldnt stack both if you they had the same cd .So most ppl used Fire sigils + Rune of the Ogre (+4% damage increase) + a passive sigil that gave +5% total damage increase .While 2-hdanded weapons in general could equip only 1 sigil

While avoiding Runes of Lyssa , because it was ''STATISTICALLY WORSE''' by some thief mathematically formula genious opinion , and he expeted from its victims to wear some Toughness-Bunker gear ...... and when its victims started using defensive spec .... guess what that thief (and others oathbreakers) did .... .....,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.............And then the removed ''tip of the iceberg'' Urf was introduced in other games , for some fun salt to the wound :P

[Crossaber.8934]

PoF elite are better than HoT because HoT elites got tone down right before PoF released. PoF elites weren’t any stronger than HoT elite at launch, just about similar level. And we will see some PoF elite nerf when next expansion is about to release.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

This has been well known for a while. Any player with the elite classes pretty much dominated over those without one in PvP. Either way, the power creep is real and not going away.

[Rodzynald.5897]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Rodzynald.5897 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Taltevus.3289 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Sharen Graves.1276" said:And now you see why it's GG for the game as a whole. They will never balance the core with HoT, and never balance HoT with PoF. Next Expack PoF will be knocked down a tier and core will be nothing but a myth. So they are right when they said that "GW2 dont have a gear treadmill." They just have a spec treadmill.

Some treadmill. Most of my characters had the new elite spec unlocked the moment they got into PoF, because I had enough points to unlock them....before even playing the expansion. Yes, new specs are better than core specs, but PoF specs aren't necessarily better than HoT specs. And they are mutually exclusive. You never have to learn druid to become a soul beast.

It's a completely different situation.

Well...you don't need to unlock specs in PVP mode. I am not addressing PVE where you do have to unlock them. I skipped this expansion...and man I am glad I did but it's definitely enjoyable. PoF Specs from my observation are better than Core and HoT Specs. Just from watching what people are running. And what they are capable of doing. I am just saying I get it now why people were so upset with HoT and now here I am upset with PoF.

I don't know I still see plenty of HoT specs when I go into PvP, but honestly, this is the case for every MMO on the planet. You buy expansions to remain relevant. No one is going to give you a game you can play forever, without spending a penny because that's how games go out of business. You either like the game, pay for expansions (every two years is nothing for a game like this) or you don't. Other MMOs pretty much universally raise the level cap and introduce new tiers of gear. If anything this game is fairer for PvP than other MMOs.

In other words, storm in a teacup.

Actually I don't see much of HoT specs, maybe that's because they melt most of the time once they start to fight with PoF specs.And I still cannot understand how people say that pvp may be "fairer for PvP than other MMOs". I am currently playing Tera and the pvp there is way better, I get the same feeling, the same good vibes coming from it as back at GW2 vanilla. Mostly just because I know that most classes are not capable of gimmicks and shenanigans or passive savings procs like in here. Once you screw up, you die, just how it should be. I really wish they made at least ONE weekend or week of turned off elite specs for pvp between seasons, so that we can roll with core on unranked and get crazy with creativity. See how that works out, it might be a good learning experience.

Oh look what I found, a link from the Tera forums. This guy would disagree with you:

https://board.tera.gameforge.com/index.php/Thread/69738-PvP-and-Balance/

You give me one thread with just a handful of players discussing on it? Sorry, an exception is not a status quo, besides, it smells like l2p issue. I would rather pick a heck strong class in one thing than something that has an access to multiple means of fighting at the same time. I've noticed what is happening, but at least I rest assured that what I fight won't suddenly go passively invulnerable the moment I am about to land a killing blow, or use some skill that gives you mobility, can't be hit while doing it and heals at the end-sort of thing. Also I don't mind 1 shots as long as they can be 1 shotted themselves.This would straighten things up a bit, to build classes around one specific thing and branch out around them, instead of slapping everything on it. As I've stated many times before, vanilla GW2 had more risk and reward to it. There was no rinse and repeat for eternity (except cele ele, that was a mistake).

I gave you one thread out of the first 1 second I did a search on it. If you're denying that's the only thread, then I don't know what to tell you. It takes a minimum amount of effort on anyone's part to find complaints about balance in games of any kind.

More to the point, with the whole 2 upvotes you've gotten in this thread it doesn't really look like you have wide scale community support for what you're actually saying. A couple of people agree with you. I wonder how this post would fair on reddit, or if downvotes were accepted.

To put it bluntly, I can't think of any MMO that doesn't add some power creep of some kind in an expansion and expansions never made a game pay to win. Pay to win has always referred to the cash shop, and micro transactions, not buying the next installment of a game. By that definition every single MMO would be pay to win, and the word itself would lose all meaning.

Pay to win, as a term, exists to let people know what's a legit MMO and which MMO you can buy power in the cash shop. In BDO for example, the person with the most healing potion wins, which can be bought in the cash shop, making BDO a pay to win game. You have to keep paying to buy more pots. In Guild Wars 2, you have to buy an expansion to stay current, same with every MMO on the planet.

People say I'm a white knight, but this post doesn't seem to have a lot of support behind it.

I've just searched Tera discussion forum for more threads with "PvP" words in it. There are only 4 pages with about 3 or 4 threads directly complaining about something, only one or two of them are of any significance and that is... hardly convincing. I don't post as much as you so of course I won't get as many thumbs, but I don't care if I get them or if anyone else gets them, I'll speak my mind anyway, this is why forums exist.

As much as HoT and PoF may appear to be p2w, as you stated, there is pretty much no good mmorpg without at least a tiny bit of p2w in it, but that is not the main point that I tried to explain, which was about jack of all trades (or more trades than they should) that are better with more power creep introduced into the game.But anyway, no matter what you say, you cannot change nor deny the fact of what this mode was and how it is now. The gradual decline in playerbase, it already happened and it happened due to powercreep as one of the main reasons. A simple comparison between different well known titles is enough to leave GW2 PvP somewhere in a dark corner. Maybe now it stays on a "stable" level, but it is just a shadow of what it once was.

On the bright note, unranked pvp is quite enjoyable during pvp season. People don't tryhard so much and it's easier to goof around :D

P.S.White knight is a term used to describe men who defend women online and expect some action in return.

[trunks.5249]

this is all class based. my class most people are still running druid and blowing off soulbeast all together

[Vayne.8563]

Deleted as an afterthought

[therealzuluDanny.9023]

@Taltevus.3289 said:Played various power builds for Mesmer...and I see fully now. I defended Chrono during HoT becasue it was different but, now it's just. I get it now. The pay to win power-creep is REAL.

Did you just figured this out now? lol!

[Swagg.9236]

@Taltevus.3289 said:I defended Chrono during HoT becasue it was different

Chrono is 1:1 stock mesmer that just gets to press a bunch of its buttons twice. Slapping an extra button onto a build which has already been played to death for 3 years makes no effective difference at all, no matter how overpowered that single button is; and that's really all that HoT did for any class. PoF just continued with that tradition.