Revamping Toughness.

[Jski.6180]

Hp did not get buff in par with the dps buff to condi dmg untill they add in say condi crits your not going to see a combo deal with condi dmg alone. Crit dmg it self is the counter to toughness.

[hugeboss.5432]

If you are still dying to conditions in this meta, you are either:

1) afk2) grossly outmanned (pure numbers usually outperforms player skill in larger zerg fights)3) using raid zerker gear & pure dps traits4) standing wonderfully exposed in a really bad position5) havent understood the condi mechanics & counters6) following an unexperienced commander / or, took a risk7) on the wrong team ;-)

Not all professions can do it as easy as others, professions excell at different stuff, so be sure to bring a profession that can tackle that kind of heat.

[STIHL.2489]

@"hugeboss.5432" said:Not all professions can do it as easy as others, professions excell at different stuff, so be sure to bring a profession that can tackle that kind of heat.

Here is the problem folks... This is why there needs to a stat that counters Condi.. and not just "Play the right class"

[Sovereign.1093]

the counter to condi is team work. but to cast condi only.needs one unit. this is why it is hard.

[Aeolus.3615]

just bring back gw1 skill design to gw2 in 2018, both spvp and WvW will be good after that.

[STIHL.2489]

@Sovereign.1093 said:the counter to condi is team work. but to cast condi only.needs one unit. this is why it is hard.

Which again is why there should be a stat that counters it or mitigates it's damage. Not to mention by doing that.. the game can be balanced better by modifying the counter stat as opposed to just trying to nerf condi.

[MedievalThings.5417]

I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

All boons can be removed.

Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Ubi.4136 said:I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

All boons can be removed.

Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.Toughnes cant be improved by just buffing it, imagine lots of bunker expect to be carried with boon stacking, bette rtoughness and some classes can still do damage while having high surviability,.. due how DUMB LamerNet has become to carry the players, since the game offers very low quality of mechanics.

Crittical damage needs to start at 0 rather than 150%just like crit chance does.Unblockables need to affect skills that block only, reflections and absorption should still make their function against unblockables, add skills that cant be reflected and others that cant be absorved, or create traits for players choose what the skills effect should do.Boons need to stop being stacked, and where class balance and skill design is awfull, i dont expect this to change(Anet lost all its quality), but its the main reason game is awfully broken.Some boons need to be converted into their own mechanics, like stability was a stance in gw1 or a effectConditions that needs to be tied to one specific class and be changed to hexes.

• Torment - Tied to Necromancer class.
• Confusion - Tied to mesmer class.
• Taunt - Tied to warrior class.
• Slow - Tied to Revenant and mesmer classes.

... And then i remmeber how dumb the classes on this game need to be for its players base awfull quality .... just look at scourges and firebrand, spellbreakers low effort skill deisgn that does the full counter alone w/o any knowledge or gameplay required, its like play a gw1 mesmer with cheats or a bot.

[Chaba.5410]

Direct damage crits. Because of that, it is divided by armor. You cannot mitigate damage that is dealt immediately and can be multiplied through critical hits any other way.

Condition damage isn't multiplied by critical chance. It is damage over time, not all at once. There's no reason to divide the damage "per tick" when mitigation also occurs over time.

It has always been true in this game that longer fights favor condition builds over power builds, even back when there was a cap on condi stacks pre-HoT, which is proper due to the over-time vs immediate nature of the two different damage types.

So what is different? HoT brought more condi damage as burst and some of the new four-stat combos provide for riskier condition builds, but HoT also brought resistance - which completely negates damage per tick - and PoF brought more boon-stripping/conversion which was a boost to power builds. Then there's the recent balance patch that toned down condi burst. (And in WvW recently it has been very noticeable that if you want to do a lot of damage, you bring a power build, not a condi build.) Those things were not done by changing damage calculations, but by adjusting the skills and traits that apply conditions.

[babazhook.6805]

@"Ubi.4136" said:I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

All boons can be removed.

Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

No they do not NEED to rework stats so as to force Condition builds into using more offensive stats. It an option but is hardly the only way to address issues of balance.

Again a POWER build does not HAVE to train three stats for its damage. It can if it wants to increase its damage. It has more options to do so as more stats are available so as to allow it. Ferocity and Precision do exponetially more to help a POWER build then they do a condition build and that in and of itself is an advantage in favor of power. It is how you can have a power build deal 10K+ damage in single attacks INSTANTLY , something which conditions builds can not do.

Condition builds require more in the way of survival stats because they are damage over time and the longer it takes to deal that damage the more survival that is needed. If they did not have that higher toughness and vitality they could simply not prevail against a power build as power will take them out long before conditions can be ramped up.

The issue with conditions is related to very specific classes. All classes in GW2 can train as condition builds and all of them can wear DIRE armor or TB armor and get that extra toughness and vitality. ALL classes that go the Condition route can focus only on Condition damage stat offensive wise. While ALL classes can do this only a minority of them are really an issue when we speak of balance and conditions , this suggesting the issue NOT related to "Needing one stat" or "wearing dire armor" but that is specific to those professions and the skills and utilities that allow rapid condition ramp.

[Shadowcat.2680]

I wish they would remove the free 1,000 power every profession has in its stat spread. If a build wants to go full condi and have all the toughness and vitality offered by trailblazers and dire, then they should not also be able to do direct damage of any significance. Traits like Diamond Skin for ele would actually be a hard counter to condi spam then.

[psizone.8437]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Traits like Diamond Skin for ele would actually be a hard counter to condi spam then.

Hard counters aren't the way to go. Traits and skills that remove damage, condition or power, encourage lazy gameplay and should be replaced with optional damage mitigation (cleanses, blocks, damage reducions, evades).

Lowered condition application and damage (from requiring precision + ferocity to maximise condition damage preferably) and reduced spike damage on some power skills is needed at the same time.

[Sovereign.1093]

vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

[STIHL.2489]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Ubi.4136" said:I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

All boons can be removed.

Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

No they do not NEED to rework stats so as to force Condition builds into using more offensive stats. It an option but is hardly the only way to address issues of balance.

Again a POWER build does not HAVE to train three stats for its damage. It can if it wants to increase its damage. It has more options to do so as more stats are available so as to allow it. Ferocity and Precision do exponetially more to help a POWER build then they do a condition build and that in and of itself is an advantage in favor of power. It is how you can have a power build deal 10K+ damage in single attacks INSTANTLY , something which conditions builds can not do.

Condition builds require more in the way of survival stats because they are damage over time and the longer it takes to deal that damage the more survival that is needed. If they did not have that higher toughness and vitality they could simply not prevail against a power build as power will take them out long before conditions can be ramped up.

The issue with conditions is related to very specific classes. All classes in GW2 can train as condition builds and all of them can wear DIRE armor or TB armor and get that extra toughness and vitality. ALL classes that go the Condition route can focus only on Condition damage stat offensive wise. While ALL classes can do this only a minority of them are really an issue when we speak of balance and conditions , this suggesting the issue NOT related to "Needing one stat" or "wearing dire armor" but that is specific to those professions and the skills and utilities that allow rapid condition ramp.

I don't think I could disagree with this more if I tried.

There is should ALWAYS be a survival trade off for doing maxim damage no matter the source. There is no reason why doing optimal condition damage should not put a player at as much risk as doing optimal power damage.

This is exactly what is wrong with the way the stats are laid out.

I agree with the others. condition should be built around multiple stats just as power damage is.

I also believe that we need stats that help mitigate condition damage just as we have stats that mitigate Power damage.

[Pepper.3901]

@MachineManXX.9746 said:There is no problem. Conditions are already too easy to mitigate.

That's baloney!

When more than one person can condi spam, even with four skills that 'remove' condi (as traited in utilities) one is dead in less than five seconds.

So what 'mitigation' are you talking about.

And 'invulnerability' ? Have you looked up invuln and seen how few of us can bring about that protection?

Condi has issues compared to power - and this conversation should get someone's attention that it isn't balanced bya long shot yet.

[bq pd.2148]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Ubi.4136" said:I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

All boons can be removed.

Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

No they do not NEED to rework stats so as to force Condition builds into using more offensive stats. It an option but is hardly the only way to address issues of balance.

Again a POWER build does not HAVE to train three stats for its damage. It can if it wants to increase its damage. It has more options to do so as more stats are available so as to allow it. Ferocity and Precision do exponetially more to help a POWER build then they do a condition build and that in and of itself is an advantage in favor of power. It is how you can have a power build deal 10K+ damage in single attacks INSTANTLY , something which conditions builds can not do.

Condition builds require more in the way of survival stats because they are damage over time and the longer it takes to deal that damage the more survival that is needed. If they did not have that higher toughness and vitality they could simply not prevail against a power build as power will take them out long before conditions can be ramped up.

The issue with conditions is related to very specific classes. All classes in GW2 can train as condition builds and all of them can wear DIRE armor or TB armor and get that extra toughness and vitality. ALL classes that go the Condition route can focus only on Condition damage stat offensive wise. While ALL classes can do this only a minority of them are really an issue when we speak of balance and conditions , this suggesting the issue NOT related to "Needing one stat" or "wearing dire armor" but that is specific to those professions and the skills and utilities that allow rapid condition ramp.

I don't think I could disagree with this more if I tried.

There is should

ALWAYS

be a survival trade off for doing maxim damage no matter the source. There is no reason why doing optimal condition damage should not put a player at as much risk as doing optimal power damage.

This is exactly what is wrong with the way the stats are laid out.

I agree with the others. condition should be built around multiple stats just as power damage is.

I also believe that we need stats that help mitigate condition damage just as we have stats that mitigate Power damage.

i agree with you that condition builds should be glassier if they deal much damage, they are stronger in longer fights but with TB and dire they force longer fights wich puts them in favor.the problem is that we have too much counter play to conditions, thats why we wont get too many nerfs to it.you can evade/block/invuln power and condi damage, we got mainly thoughness and protection for power mitigation and cleanses and resistance for condi mitigation. cleanses and resistance are far more powerful in their mitigation potential then thoughness and protection, sure we got more sources for protection than resistance but in group you can keep up resistance wich forces the opponent to strip it, if they want to deal condition damage.

id say condition builds should need more stats to get their damage and in return resistance should only affect non damaging conditions and cleanses made more specific like some of them cleansing non damaging conditions and some only damaging conditions to reduce RNG cleansing (there are few that already do that for example Shadows Embrace trait for thieves)

[babazhook.6805]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Ubi.4136" said:I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

All boons can be removed.

Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

No they do not NEED to rework stats so as to force Condition builds into using more offensive stats. It an option but is hardly the only way to address issues of balance.

Again a POWER build does not HAVE to train three stats for its damage. It can if it wants to increase its damage. It has more options to do so as more stats are available so as to allow it. Ferocity and Precision do exponetially more to help a POWER build then they do a condition build and that in and of itself is an advantage in favor of power. It is how you can have a power build deal 10K+ damage in single attacks INSTANTLY , something which conditions builds can not do.

Condition builds require more in the way of survival stats because they are damage over time and the longer it takes to deal that damage the more survival that is needed. If they did not have that higher toughness and vitality they could simply not prevail against a power build as power will take them out long before conditions can be ramped up.

The issue with conditions is related to very specific classes. All classes in GW2 can train as condition builds and all of them can wear DIRE armor or TB armor and get that extra toughness and vitality. ALL classes that go the Condition route can focus only on Condition damage stat offensive wise. While ALL classes can do this only a minority of them are really an issue when we speak of balance and conditions , this suggesting the issue NOT related to "Needing one stat" or "wearing dire armor" but that is specific to those professions and the skills and utilities that allow rapid condition ramp.

I don't think I could disagree with this more if I tried.

There is should

ALWAYS

be a survival trade off for doing maxim damage no matter the source. There is no reason why doing optimal condition damage should not put a player at as much risk as doing optimal power damage.

This is exactly what is wrong with the way the stats are laid out.

I agree with the others. condition should be built around multiple stats just as power damage is.

I also believe that we need stats that help mitigate condition damage just as we have stats that mitigate Power damage.

Optimal condition damage is still less then power damage. It has a LOWER ceiling . It has a lower ceiling because ferocity and precision do not help to make it better. Power builds have more flexibility when it comes to making a build because they have more stats that help their builds. I have power builds that have every bit thr toughnness or vitality as a condition build yet can still generate more damage then that condition build.

If one car has a top speed of 200 MPH and a second car has a top speed of 100 MPH , and the goal is getting to the finish line first it does not matter that the second car has to invest LESS in order to get that "maximum" speed as its maximum speed is lower. That in EXCHANGE for reaching that top speed of 100 MPH it is more durable does not mean that this an "unfair advantage". it only becomes so when it can reach that 200 MPH and still be more durable , which happens only in a small handful of builds and is addressed by looking at those builds in particular.

[Kovu.7560]

They need to rework how certain high mobility roaming specs deal condition damage, and increase the potency of removal abilities on certain CORE professions, but I feel like conditions on the whole aren't that big of an issue.I mean, if you get loaded up with 10+ conditions in a large scale fight you can hardly claim that conditions are OP because of that -- if these people were running power builds you'd still be dead. There's definitely a placebo effect at work here.

~ Kovu

[Kaiser.9873]

You anti-condi people always complaining.I want power-based damage nerfed, since my scourge was hit by 2 CoR's, a meteor shower, and an Earthshaker all at once and went down! /s/non-s I can at least have half a chance to get rid of condi with a cleanse or conversion. I get jumped by power there is far less time to "get rid of" the damage source.There are already mitigations to condition damage, just as there are to power damage. Find something new and different to complain about.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Sovereign.1093 said:vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

expect Anet to sell next elite traits on next expantion that spam aoe resistance.... that's how they fix stuff.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

expect Anet to sell next elite traits on next expantion that spam aoe resistance.... that's how they fix stuff.

hehe i am probably one of those guys who will say, shut up and take my money if i like the product.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

expect Anet to sell next elite traits on next expantion that spam aoe resistance.... that's how they fix stuff.

hehe i am probably one of those guys who will say, shut up and take my money if i like the product.

Me 2 , reason i didnt bother to buy PoF and i think buying HoT was already a mistake.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

expect Anet to sell next elite traits on next expantion that spam aoe resistance.... that's how they fix stuff.

hehe i am probably one of those guys who will say, shut up and take my money if i like the product.

Me 2 , reason i didnt bother to buy PoF and i think buying HoT was already a mistake.

hehe. only desert was, imo.

i like pof. i am a lore buff.

[Apolo.5942]

@Klipso.8653 said:They shouldn't load toughness. If they're gonna add a new mitigation stat for Condi, then it should be separate from toughness so players would have to choose between them.

Most certainly NOT. Condition is already OP, you need 2 stats to maximize its damage, power needs 3, This lets Condi build OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE with out drawback. Looking at you TRAILBLAZER.

[babazhook.6805]

@Apolo.5942 said:

@Klipso.8653 said:They shouldn't load toughness. If they're gonna add a new mitigation stat for Condi, then it should be separate from toughness so players would have to choose between them.

Most certainly NOT. Condition is already OP, you need 2 stats to maximize its damage, power needs 3, This lets Condi build OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE with out drawback. Looking at you TRAILBLAZER.

The fact that Condition builds need only one stat to maximize damage output is meaningless if maximum damage output is lower than that of Power. TB and DIRE are not issues as they add no more to damage than something like Carrion.

Where power damage output uses more stats to increase damage , the bulk of Condition damage comes from RAMP and specific skills and utilities and not the armor. As such looking at the armor as the culprit is not logical. This is why only a handful of condition builds are really an issue. Throwing Zerker armor over soldiers on a power build such as thief can dramatically increase damage output. Throwing dire on a Condition mesmer in place of carrion does not.