Imaginary Axes & Axes of Symmetry need a rework !!!

[Yukio blaster.9082]

HEY,I main mesmer now after POF and i've been using axe as a weapon and to be honest its good but need a rework to fix some issues :

1. Imaginary Axes

Release phantasmal axes that seek out the nearest target after a short delay. Condition stacks reduced for clones.Damage (2x): 366 (1.0)?Seek Range: 4803 Player Confusion (5s): 113 Damage On Skill Use, 330 DamageClone Confusion (5s): 38 Damage On Skill Use, 110 DamageRange: 200

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Comparing between the condition AMBUSH skills available for the Mirage when 3 clones are active and when using Infinite Horizon trait (When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.)

-AMBUSH STAFF can stack:5 burning for 3 sec8 bleeding for 6 sec12 vulnerability for 5 secfury for 3 sec12 stacks of might for 8 secits a 1200 rang .a bit slow around 1.75 sec between cast and reach .

-AMBUSH SCEPTRE can stack:20 stack of a mix between confusion and torment for 2 sec and 5 stacks stay 2 more seconds1200 rangevery fast reach speed 5 hits.

-AMBUSH AXE can stack:12 stack of confusion for 5 sec480 rangevery slow around 2 sec between cast and reach.

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---->this Ambush skill is very slow and not as useful as much as any other ambush skill in the game.Ambush of the sword gap closer interrupt mobilityAmbush of the great-sword ranged reach multiple enemy insane DPSAmbush of the sceptre extra range 1200 and fast reachAmbush of the staff is ranged burning what i can say more than that.and when i say Imaginary Axes is slow it's not the actually cast time its fine but the seek time is so slow for it to be useful in fights at least make it faster to seek out the target like sceptre or add more range to it like 1200 for example to be used as a range skill the animation is all ready there. keeping it like that is a reason why a lot of mirages don't use axe .SO PLEASE DON'T SAY THAT THE AXE AMBUSH IS FINE BECAUSE ITS CLEARLY NOT .

2. Axes of Symmetry

You and all your axe clones shadowstep to a random location around your target and strike, applying confusion. This attack breaks enemy targeting, and your illusions change focus to the targeted foe.Damage: 550 (1.5)?5 Player Confusion (4s): 188 Damage On Skill Use, 440 DamageClone Confusion (4s): 38 Damage On Skill Use, 88 DamageBreaks Enemy TargetingEvade: ¾sCombo Finisher: LeapRange: 600

---->This skill is useful as an idea its a gap closer and a good source of damage, however this skill can not hit a moving target if you are behind him most of the time and in the limit of the 600 range the skill don't hit and it dos not fulfil it purpose, however the phantasmal seeking axe reach the target and i checked this on the running golem .I believe it's caused due the animation rotation when you shadow-step after using the skill the rotations slow enough that allow the target to be out of reach by only running and no need to dodge it .I guess to fix this add more range to the melee axe after the shadow-step like the phantasmal seeking axe 450 so they both can reach the enemy and that what i prefer, or make the shadow-step closer to the enemy or simply make the skill faster.

[Lotheap Mitty.6103]

**---->this Ambush skill is very slow and not as useful as much as any other ambush skill in the game.it's 12 stacks of base 5s confusion damage every 3 seconds with infinite horizon, what more can you ask for..what other ambush can maintain 30 stacks of confusion by itself

[bart.3687]

Keep in mind that I'm not a top tier PvPer nor PvEer, but from experience, these skills work fine.To my mind, Imaginary Axes is the best ambush in PvE right now, and probably 2nd best (after Sword) in PvP. It's fast and elusive, you don't need to face your target to cast it, it seeks targets in stealth, it hits multiple enemies, it's mid ranged, and it stacks lots of conditions. Especially with IH and Sharper Images, I found I'm able to burst 10+ stacks of Confusion and 5+ stacks of Bleeding very easily just from this one skill. No reason to buff it even further, at least not in PvP environments.

About Axes of Symmetry, well, I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think that it's so much of an issue. I do agree that the leap might feel a little slow sometimes and that it struggles to hit fast moving targets. However, I also feel that this skill is rewarding enough when you actually manage to land it, on top of being a low-cd gap closer & evade & target break, which is useless in pve but really nice in pvp (maybe in PvE it could use some improvements to damage/condis or something because as far as I know it's a dps loss over simply autoattacking [sic!])

All in all, I think these skills are powerful enough. There are certainly a few things on mesmer that need to be looked at/redesigned/improved, but the axe is not one of them imo.

[Abelisk.4527]

• Axe ambush can be cast, then you can kite without worrying about managing them• They're ranged meaning they're not entirely melee like sword is• They do a ton of confusion..•Axes of Symmetry is good for point pressure, and an evade-gap closer which is useful for unblockables such as Test of Faith or signs from Necros.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I think axe ambush is fine. My issue with mirage is also part of what I like about it: combat movement. I love the feel of the class, blinking all over the field and being generally difficult to hit. However, the movement on axe 2 frequently makes the skill unusable or unnecessarily dangerous to use (sliding off of cliffs, into area effects, etc.). Compounding the problem is the wonkiness on teleport skills like illusionary ambush/axes of symmetry. Teleporting through walls/floors/ceilings or getting stuck inside of objects is common. And finally, for some reason illusionary ambush (the deception skill) teleports you well outside of melee range while axes of symmetry (which does much the same thing as far as the teleport goes) does not (unless the target is moving).

If they could tighten these things up a bit it might help mirage meet its potential in more situations.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

I EDITED MY POST AND ADDED A COMPARISON BETWEEN AMBUSH SKILLS

@Abelisk.4527 said:• Axe ambush can be cast, then you can kite without worrying about managing them• They're ranged meaning they're not entirely melee like sword is• They do a ton of confusion..•Axes of Symmetry is good for point pressure, and an evade-gap closer which is useful for unblockables such as Test of Faith or signs from Necros.-I'm not saying that Axe ambush is bad but need a rework in someway that dmg isn't one of them maybe increasing the range or making the skill faster so it can be use in PVP more its rarely used as far as i can know in PVP when i fight axe mesmers and i'm a hardcore PVPer i played around 600 game this season only .the Axe ambush in PVE is good cos the targets are most of the time stable, but still its not the best ambush.-Axes of Symmetry when it ports should hit the target unless the target us a dodge or block or evade but a normal moving target should be hit and i don't see any reason why it shouldn't do you !!
@bart.3687 said:Keep in mind that I'm not a top tier PvPer nor PvEer, but from experience, these skills work fine.To my mind, Imaginary Axes is the best ambush in PvE right now, and probably 2nd best (after Sword) in PvP. It's fast and elusive, you don't need to face your target to cast it, it seeks targets in stealth, it hits multiple enemies, it's mid ranged, and it stacks lots of conditions. Especially with IH and Sharper Images, I found I'm able to burst 10+ stacks of Confusion and 5+ stacks of Bleeding very easily just from this one skill. No reason to buff it even further, at least not in PvP environments.

About Axes of Symmetry, well, I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think that it's so much of an issue. I do agree that the leap might feel a little slow sometimes and that it struggles to hit fast moving targets. However, I also feel that this skill is rewarding enough when you actually manage to land it, on top of being a low-cd gap closer & evade & target break, which is useless in pve but really nice in pvp (maybe in PvE it could use some improvements to damage/condis or something because as far as I know it's a dps loss over simply autoattacking [sic!])

All in all, I think these skills are powerful enough. There are certainly a few things on mesmer that need to be looked at/redesigned/improved, but the axe is not one of them imo.

• I don't agree about you saying that the axe ambush is 2nd best in PVP cos it's not used much compared to other Ambush skills simply cos this skill lake the utility factor the time between the casting and the reaching is high easy to be dodged and the range is minor for it to be used before you get to your target or when you disengage the other ambushes are better in million times cos if they are not crazy ranged 1200 sceptre staff great sword they are more mobility and gap closer that in term of utility and about damage you said that Axe ambush can stack 10+ confusion and that's true actually you can stack 12 confusion if you have 3 active clones bet lets see what other ambush skills can do:
• AMBUSH staff can stack 5 burning and 8 bleeding and 12 vulnerability and give you fury for 3 sec and 12 stacks of might for 8 sec and its a 1200 rang fast casting
• AMBUSH scepter can stack 20 confusion or 20 torment or a mix of both and its 1200 range a bit slow but not as slow as the axe ambush.so the 12 stacks of confusion that the AXE AMBUSH can do and it is the worst ambush in the game.-and About Axes of Symmetry, the same answer as before .

@Lotheap Mitty.6103 said:

**---->this Ambush skill is very slow and not as useful as much as any other ambush skill in the game.it's 12 stacks of base 5s confusion damage every 3 seconds with infinite horizon, what more can you ask for..what other ambush can maintain 30 stacks of confusion by itself

Read what the other ambushes can do above and you will get what i'm talking about, the sceptre can do 40 stack of a mix between confusion and torment if you double cast and its 1200 rang and fast, the staff can crash anyone with the burn burst and the high bleeding stack + the boons might and fury and its a 1200 rang too.so were i can put the AXE ambush, of course down in the list slow reach minor range low damage compared to other condition AMBUSH skills .

[Yukio blaster.9082]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think axe ambush is fine. My issue with mirage is also part of what I like about it: combat movement. I love the feel of the class, blinking all over the field and being generally difficult to hit. However, the movement on axe 2 frequently makes the skill unusable or unnecessarily dangerous to use (sliding off of cliffs, into area effects, etc.). Compounding the problem is the wonkiness on teleport skills like illusionary ambush/axes of symmetry. Teleporting through walls/floors/ceilings or getting stuck inside of objects is common. And finally, for some reason illusionary ambush (the deception skill) teleports you well outside of melee range while axes of symmetry (which does much the same thing as far as the teleport goes) does not (unless the target is moving).

If they could tighten these things up a bit it might help mirage meet its potential in more situations.

-Well in PVE it's fine because you can calculate your movements and you have time to think and cast skills and the target is mostly static unless its a rabbit lol, however in PVP it's useless you need a 2 sec for the skill to hit the target and the animation is so obvious to be dodged and its not ranged its more of a melee ambush . and you can read in my last comment when i compared between it and the other Ambush skills.-About the other issues i agree about most of them like for example axe 2 i cant use the skill when i'm fighting a tower lord cos if i do i may fall down and sometime me falling cos me to loose the tower capping and that a frustrating thing. they should make axe 2 Lingering Thoughts to stop when there is a cliff .-Axes of symmetry well about this skill you should know that they mad it perform a range check before casting in the November's patch, and i think that's good if the skill hit every-time it cast's, if not then i prefer the non range check version .When you deeply think about the axe skills they actually need a rework but the overall idea of it is amazing .

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think axe ambush is fine. My issue with mirage is also part of what I like about it: combat movement. I love the feel of the class, blinking all over the field and being generally difficult to hit. However, the movement on axe 2 frequently makes the skill unusable or unnecessarily dangerous to use (sliding off of cliffs, into area effects, etc.). Compounding the problem is the wonkiness on teleport skills like illusionary ambush/axes of symmetry. Teleporting through walls/floors/ceilings or getting stuck inside of objects is common. And finally, for some reason illusionary ambush (the deception skill) teleports you well outside of melee range while axes of symmetry (which does much the same thing as far as the teleport goes) does not (unless the target is moving).

If they could tighten these things up a bit it might help mirage meet its potential in more situations.

-Well in PVE it's fine because you can calculate your movements and you have time to think and cast skills and the target is mostly static unless its a rabbit lol, however in PVP it's useless you need a 2 sec for the skill to hit the target and the animation is so obvious to be dodged and its not ranged its more of a melee ambush . and you can read in my last comment when i compared between it and the other Ambush skills.-About the other issues i agree about most of them like for example axe 2 i cant use the skill when i'm fighting a tower lord cos if i do i may fall down and sometime me falling cos me to loose the tower capping and that a frustrating thing. they should make axe 2 Lingering Thoughts to stop when there is a cliff .-Axes of symmetry well about this skill you should know that they mad it perform a range check before casting in the November's patch, and i think that's good if the skill hit every-time it cast's, if not then i prefer the non range check version .When you deeply think about the axe skills they actually need a rework but the overall idea of it is amazing .

I haven't done too much PvP/WvW on my mirage so far, but from what I have done (farmed a gift of battle in WvW and did some unranked play in PvP) axe seems to work pretty well against other players. The movement issues seem far more relevant to group PvE than anything else, although I don't necessarily disagree with the suggestion to increase the seek speed and range on axe ambush (a bit of a speed boost and a bump to 600 range would probably be good?). Like I said, if they could tighten up some of this stuff I think axe would be just fine.

So, what do we want?

• I hear they changed weakening charge (staff 2, daredevil) to stop it passing through enemies. Perhaps something similar could be done for axe 2 on mirage?

• Maybe bump the range on axe ambush seek to 600 and increase the speed a bit.

• Tighten up the distance on illusionary ambush so that it lands you closer to melee range when you have a melee weapon equipped (axe 3 does this pretty well, not sure why the difference?).

• Tighten up the timing/tracking on these teleports so that they can handle moving targets more accurately.

I just don't like the way axe loses so much efficacy from this sort of stuff. I love the overall feel of it - the movement. But it does make it less than ideal in too many situations, in my opinion.

[bart.3687]

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:I EDITED MY POST AND ADDED A COMPARISON BETWEEN AMBUSH SKILLS

@Abelisk.4527 said:• Axe ambush can be cast, then you can kite without worrying about managing them• They're ranged meaning they're not entirely melee like sword is• They do a ton of confusion..•Axes of Symmetry is good for point pressure, and an evade-gap closer which is useful for unblockables such as Test of Faith or signs from Necros.-I'm not saying that Axe ambush is bad but need a rework in someway that dmg isn't one of them maybe increasing the range or making the skill faster so it can be use in PVP more its rarely used as far as i can know in PVP when i fight axe mesmers and i'm a hardcore PVPer i played around 600 game this season only .the Axe ambush in PVE is good cos the targets are most of the time stable, but still its not the best ambush.-Axes of Symmetry when it ports should hit the target unless the target us a dodge or block or evade but a normal moving target should be hit and i don't see any reason why it shouldn't do you !!

@bart.3687 said:Keep in mind that I'm not a top tier PvPer nor PvEer, but from experience, these skills work fine.To my mind, Imaginary Axes is the best ambush in PvE right now, and probably 2nd best (after Sword) in PvP. It's fast and elusive, you don't need to face your target to cast it, it seeks targets in stealth, it hits multiple enemies, it's mid ranged, and it stacks lots of conditions. Especially with IH and Sharper Images, I found I'm able to burst 10+ stacks of Confusion and 5+ stacks of Bleeding very easily just from this one skill. No reason to buff it even further, at least not in PvP environments.

About Axes of Symmetry, well, I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think that it's so much of an issue. I do agree that the leap might feel a little slow sometimes and that it struggles to hit fast moving targets. However, I also feel that this skill is rewarding enough when you actually manage to land it, on top of being a low-cd gap closer & evade & target break, which is useless in pve but really nice in pvp (maybe in PvE it could use some improvements to damage/condis or something because as far as I know it's a dps loss over simply autoattacking [sic!])

All in all, I think these skills are powerful enough. There are certainly a few things on mesmer that need to be looked at/redesigned/improved, but the axe is not one of them imo.

• I don't agree about you saying that the axe ambush is 2nd best in PVP cos it's not used much compared to other Ambush skills simply cos this skill lake the utility factor the time between the casting and the reaching is high easy to be dodged and the range is minor for it to be used before you get to your target or when you disengage the other ambushes are better in million times cos if they are not crazy ranged 1200 sceptre staff great sword they are more mobility and gap closer that in term of utility and about damage you said that Axe ambush can stack 10+ confusion and that's true actually you can stack 12 confusion if you have 3 active clones bet lets see what other ambush skills can do:
• AMBUSH staff can stack 5 burning and 8 bleeding and 12 vulnerability and give you fury for 3 sec and 12 stacks of might for 8 sec and its a 1200 rang fast casting
• AMBUSH scepter can stack 20 confusion or 20 torment or a mix of both and its 1200 range a bit slow but not as slow as the axe ambush.so the 12 stacks of confusion that the AXE AMBUSH can do and it is the worst ambush in the game.-and About Axes of Symmetry, the same answer as before .

@Lotheap Mitty.6103 said:

**---->this Ambush skill is very slow and not as useful as much as any other ambush skill in the game.it's 12 stacks of base 5s confusion damage every 3 seconds with infinite horizon, what more can you ask for..what other ambush can maintain 30 stacks of confusion by itself

Read what the other ambushes can do above and you will get what i'm talking about, the sceptre can do 40 stack of a mix between confusion and torment if you double cast and its 1200 rang and fast, the staff can crash anyone with the burn burst and the high bleeding stack + the boons might and fury and its a 1200 rang too.so were i can put the AXE ambush, of course down in the list slow reach minor range low damage compared to other condition AMBUSH skills .

Eh I don't know who you are fighting with, but I've had WAY better results on landing Axe ambush and applying conditions with it than with either Staff or Scepter in pvp/wvw.You are saying it like it's not blatantly easy to miss with Scepter and Staff ambushes too.Not like your opponent can't evade/block, LoS, reflect, interrupt, or simply sidestep them. They have long cast times.Also, in my view there's nothing difficult in landing Axe ambush, and surely it's not harder to land it than Scepter and Staff ones.tl;dr Sorry, I just don't agree with you.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

I haven't done too much PvP/WvW on my mirage so far, but from what I have done (farmed a gift of battle in WvW and did some unranked play in PvP) axe seems to work pretty well against other players. The movement issues seem far more relevant to group PvE than anything else, although I don't necessarily disagree with the suggestion to increase the seek speed and range on axe ambush (a bit of a speed boost and a bump to 600 range would probably be good?). Like I said, if they could tighten up some of this stuff I think axe would be just fine.

So, what do we want?

• I hear they changed weakening charge (staff 2, daredevil) to stop it passing through enemies. Perhaps something similar could be done for axe 2 on mirage?

• Maybe bump the range on axe ambush seek to 600 and increase the speed a bit.

• Tighten up the distance on illusionary ambush so that it lands you closer to melee range when you have a melee weapon equipped (axe 3 does this pretty well, not sure why the difference?).

• Tighten up the timing/tracking on these teleports so that they can handle moving targets more accurately.

I just don't like the way axe loses so much efficacy from this sort of stuff. I love the overall feel of it - the movement. But it does make it less than ideal in too many situations, in my opinion.

Well i guess that the range should be at least 900 or 1200 to make it equal to the other ambush skills of condition weapons .The increase cast speed is a must .About the other things you said i may agree in some of them.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

@bart.3687 said:

Eh I don't know who you are fighting with, but I've had WAY better results on landing Axe ambush and applying conditions with it than with either Staff or Scepter in pvp/wvw.You are saying it like it's not blatantly easy to miss with Scepter and Staff ambushes too.Not like your opponent can't evade/block, LoS, reflect, interrupt, or simply sidestep them. They have long cast times.Also, in my view there's nothing difficult in landing Axe ambush, and surely it's not harder to land it than Scepter and Staff ones.tl;dr Sorry, I just don't agree with you.

Well you talking about missing like if we are playing a FPS game that require targeting with the mouse, gw2 doesn't required any of that as long as your target is on range and that he didn't evade or block or teleport or dodge the skill will hit so what matters most for a skill to actually hit the speed of it i can agree that staff skill is easier to be dodged due the big animation and slow reach but the reword is high however sceptre !!!! the sceptre ambush is so fast it start hitting almost after you cast it best ambush in the game condition based.

[Lotheap Mitty.6103]

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:Read what the other ambushes can do above and you will get what i'm talking about, the sceptre can do 40 stack of a mix between confusion and torment if you double cast and its 1200 rang and fast, the staff can crash anyone with the burn burst and the high bleeding stack + the boons might and fury and its a 1200 rang too.so were i can put the AXE ambush, of course down in the list slow reach minor range low damage compared to other condition AMBUSH skills .

I did a bit of testing on medium hitbox golem, staff surprisingly nearly do as much damage as axe, but falls short for 5%. I guess it is viable if you are not going for the absolute min/maxing. Also torment/confusion does a bit more then burning/bleeding on non-stationary-dummy-golems.However scepter only does 2/3 of the damage, it's ambush is just too slow and clone autos only do the first stage.

edit: I forgot to add vulnerability to the golem so staff did more damage then I think since it gave vuln. That only means it's less effective XD

[zealex.9410]

@Lotheap Mitty.6103 said:

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:Read what the other ambushes can do above and you will get what i'm talking about, the sceptre can do 40 stack of a mix between confusion and torment if you double cast and its 1200 rang and fast, the staff can crash anyone with the burn burst and the high bleeding stack + the boons might and fury and its a 1200 rang too.so were i can put the AXE ambush, of course down in the list slow reach minor range low damage compared to other condition AMBUSH skills .

I did a bit of testing on medium hitbox golem, staff surprisingly nearly do as much damage as axe, but falls short for 5%. I guess it is viable if you are not going for the absolute min/maxing. Also torment/confusion does a bit more then burning/bleeding on non-stationary-dummy-golems.However scepter only does 2/3 of the damage, it's ambush is just too slow and clone autos only do the first stage.

U sure its worth running 3 clones over lets say 2 clons a a warlock in a condi heavy squad?

[BrokenGlass.9356]

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

I haven't done too much PvP/WvW on my mirage so far, but from what I have done (farmed a gift of battle in WvW and did some unranked play in PvP) axe seems to work pretty well against other players. The movement issues seem far more relevant to group PvE than anything else, although I don't necessarily disagree with the suggestion to increase the seek speed and range on axe ambush (a bit of a speed boost and a bump to 600 range would probably be good?). Like I said, if they could tighten up some of this stuff I think axe would be just fine.

So, what do we want?

• I hear they changed weakening charge (staff 2, daredevil) to stop it passing through enemies. Perhaps something similar could be done for axe 2 on mirage?

• Maybe bump the range on axe ambush seek to 600 and increase the speed a bit.

• Tighten up the distance on illusionary ambush so that it lands you closer to melee range when you have a melee weapon equipped (axe 3 does this pretty well, not sure why the difference?).

• Tighten up the timing/tracking on these teleports so that they can handle moving targets more accurately.

I just don't like the way axe loses so much efficacy from this sort of stuff. I love the overall feel of it - the movement. But it does make it less than ideal in too many situations, in my opinion.

Well i guess that the range should be at least 900 or 1200 to make it equal to the other ambush skills of condition weapons .The increase cast speed is a must .About the other things you said i may agree in some of them.

Or increase its damage and decrease the range.... That had been the theme of melee weapons game-wide after all.

[Lotheap Mitty.6103]

@zealex.9410 said:U sure its worth running 3 clones over lets say 2 clons a a warlock in a condi heavy squad?

I can't see how the warlock does anything.. am I doing something wrong or is he not effected by quickness

[Yukio blaster.9082]

@Lotheap Mitty.6103 said:

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:Read what the other ambushes can do above and you will get what i'm talking about, the sceptre can do 40 stack of a mix between confusion and torment if you double cast and its 1200 rang and fast, the staff can crash anyone with the burn burst and the high bleeding stack + the boons might and fury and its a 1200 rang too.so were i can put the AXE ambush, of course down in the list slow reach minor range low damage compared to other condition AMBUSH skills .

I did a bit of testing on medium hitbox golem, staff surprisingly nearly do as much damage as axe, but falls short for 5%. I guess it is viable if you are not going for the absolute min/maxing. Also torment/confusion does a bit more then burning/bleeding on non-stationary-dummy-golems.However scepter only does 2/3 of the damage, it's ambush is just too slow and clone autos only do the first stage.

edit: I forgot to add vulnerability to the golem so staff did more damage then I think since it gave vuln. That only means it's less effective XD

don't forget that torment do much more damage to moving targets and confusion do more damage per skill use so the dmg calculation you did on the golem isn't precise in anyway .same thing on AXEand staff do burning that the most damaging condition in the game and its 5 stacks no need to talk about might that increase your condition damage or the vulnerability that do same thing .and by calculationg the stackxduration the axe do more damage overtime but the scepter is much bustier 12x5=60 and 20x2+5x2=50 and sceptre Ambush is hard to calculate the actual damage anyway. cos it more RNG based you may get a torment or a confusion per hit . and about clones doing only the first stage that's actually meaningless cos the sceptre auto attack first and second stage are the same and the third stage is a clone creation so clearly the clone can't create a clone !! and saying that the skill is slow are you serious !!!!!! its 5 hits man not 1 like the staff or approximately the AXE, the sceptre AMB is more like a channelling beam that Confusing Images (sceptre 3) do, or take it as hitting 5 times the auto attack with lighting speed. cos it's hard very hard or impossible to calculate the ambush damage of any weapon by only applying it on the golem, especially the axe cos the clones are all ready hitting the target with the torment and bleeding and don't forget the base dmg ,and after or when the Ambush is used the clones will still be hitting so what you did don't get us anyway further.However you can do a math calculation of the damage of every weapon AMBUSH by adding the condition's dmg and stacks plus the base damage. the staff will be tricky a bit cos you need to add percentage damage after the application of might on your self and vulnerability on the target, if you do that! that would be appreciated .and about the auto-attack i agree that the axe is the best in term of damage from the player or the clones but we are comparing here the AMBUSH skill's and the usability of them .

[bart.3687]

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:

@Lotheap Mitty.6103 said:

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:Read what the other ambushes can do above and you will get what i'm talking about, the sceptre can do 40 stack of a mix between confusion and torment if you double cast and its 1200 rang and fast, the staff can crash anyone with the burn burst and the high bleeding stack + the boons might and fury and its a 1200 rang too.so were i can put the AXE ambush, of course down in the list slow reach minor range low damage compared to other condition AMBUSH skills .

I did a bit of testing on medium hitbox golem, staff surprisingly nearly do as much damage as axe, but falls short for 5%. I guess it is viable if you are not going for the absolute min/maxing. Also torment/confusion does a bit more then burning/bleeding on non-stationary-dummy-golems.However scepter only does 2/3 of the damage, it's ambush is just too slow and clone autos only do the first stage.

edit: I forgot to add vulnerability to the golem so staff did more damage then I think since it gave vuln. That only means it's less effective XD

Sceptre with 3 clones can do 20 stack of conf and torment for 4 sec and don't forget that torment do much more damage to moving targets and confusion do more damage per skill use so the dmg calculation you did on the golem isn't precise in anyway .same thing on AXEand staff do burning that the most damaging condition in the game and its 5 stacks no need to talk about might that increase your condition damage or the vulnerability that do same thing .But you saying that 12 stack of confusion for 5 sec that an AXE AMBUSH provide's do more damage than 20 stack of a mix between torment and confusion for 4 sec that's hard to believe and i guess you did something wrong when you tested cos if you do simple math we can see that 12x5=60 and 20x4=80 that for only confusion comparison, almost a 1/3 more damage for a shorter period, and sceptre Ambush is hard to calculate the actual damage anyway. cos it more RNG based you may get a torment or a confusion per hit . and about clones doing only the first stage that's actually meaningless cos the sceptre auto attack first and second stage are the same and the third stage is a clone creation so clearly the clone can't create a clone !! AND IN THIS CONVERSATION WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE AMBUSH SKILL NOT THE AUTOATTACK and saying that the skill is slow are you serious !!!!!! its 5 hits man not 1 like the staff or approximately the AXE, the sceptre AMB is more like a channelling beam that Confusing Images (sceptre 3) do, or take it as hitting 5 times the auto attack with lighting speed. i hope we don't get in a Byzantium conversation cos i see you just making up thing for no reason and i can't understand why !!!!!!! cos it's hard very hard or impossible to calculate the ambush damage of any weapon by only applying it on the golem, especially the axe cos the clones are all ready hitting the target with the torment and after or when the Ambush is used the clones will still be hitting so what you did is useless and don't get us anyway further.However you can do a math calculation of the damage of every weapon's AMBUSH that would be appreciated .

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Barrage

Seems like you don't know that, but Scepter clones only apply condis for half of their duration when ambushing, meaning the condis they apply last for 2 secs, not 4 secs. So following your logic it's 5x4 +15x2 = 50, while Axe is 12x5 = 60. And Staff is 4x (not 5x) burning for 3 secs and 10x bleeding for 6 secs. (assuming everything hits the target)No, Scepter and Staff ambushes are not faster than Axe ambush. Scepter is 1.5 sec (1.2 sec with Malicious Sorcery) and Staff is 1 sec, while Axe is 0.5 sec. Of course the axes need a while to reach the target but it's not THAT long. You can literally fire Axe ambush in no time and do something else while the axes automatically seek your target. You can't do that with Scepter and Staff ones, you have to spent time to cast them.Take care.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

@bart.3687 said:

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:

@Lotheap Mitty.6103 said:

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:Read what the other ambushes can do above and you will get what i'm talking about, the sceptre can do 40 stack of a mix between confusion and torment if you double cast and its 1200 rang and fast, the staff can crash anyone with the burn burst and the high bleeding stack + the boons might and fury and its a 1200 rang too.so were i can put the AXE ambush, of course down in the list slow reach minor range low damage compared to other condition AMBUSH skills .

I did a bit of testing on medium hitbox golem, staff surprisingly nearly do as much damage as axe, but falls short for 5%. I guess it is viable if you are not going for the absolute min/maxing. Also torment/confusion does a bit more then burning/bleeding on non-stationary-dummy-golems.However scepter only does 2/3 of the damage, it's ambush is just too slow and clone autos only do the first stage.

edit: I forgot to add vulnerability to the golem so staff did more damage then I think since it gave vuln. That only means it's less effective XD

Sceptre with 3 clones can do 20 stack of conf and torment for 4 sec and don't forget that torment do much more damage to moving targets and confusion do more damage per skill use so the dmg calculation you did on the golem isn't precise in anyway .same thing on AXEand staff do burning that the most damaging condition in the game and its 5 stacks no need to talk about might that increase your condition damage or the vulnerability that do same thing .But you saying that 12 stack of confusion for 5 sec that an AXE AMBUSH provide's do more damage than 20 stack of a mix between torment and confusion for 4 sec that's hard to believe and i guess you did something wrong when you tested cos if you do simple math we can see that 12x5=60 and 20x4=80 that for only confusion comparison, almost a 1/3 more damage for a shorter period, and sceptre Ambush is hard to calculate the actual damage anyway. cos it more RNG based you may get a torment or a confusion per hit . and about clones doing only the first stage that's actually meaningless cos the sceptre auto attack first and second stage are the same and the third stage is a clone creation so clearly the clone can't create a clone !! AND IN THIS CONVERSATION WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE AMBUSH SKILL NOT THE AUTOATTACK and saying that the skill is slow are you serious !!!!!! its 5 hits man not 1 like the staff or approximately the AXE, the sceptre AMB is more like a channelling beam that Confusing Images (sceptre 3) do, or take it as hitting 5 times the auto attack with lighting speed. i hope we don't get in a Byzantium conversation cos i see you just making up thing for no reason and i can't understand why !!!!!!! cos it's hard very hard or impossible to calculate the ambush damage of any weapon by only applying it on the golem, especially the axe cos the clones are all ready hitting the target with the torment and after or when the Ambush is used the clones will still be hitting so what you did is useless and don't get us anyway further.However you can do a math calculation of the damage of every weapon's AMBUSH that would be appreciated .

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Barrage

Seems like you don't know that, but Scepter clones only apply condis for half of their duration when ambushing, meaning the condis they apply last for 2 secs, not 4 secs. So following your logic it's 5x4 +15x2 = 50, while Axe is 12x5 = 60. And Staff is 4x (not 5x) burning for 3 secs and 10x bleeding for 6 secs. (assuming everything hits the target)No, Scepter and Staff ambushes are not faster than Axe ambush. Scepter is 1.5 sec and Staff is 1 sec, while Axe is 0.5 sec. Of course the axes need a while to reach the target but it's not THAT long. You can literally fire Axe ambush in no time and do something else while the axes automatically seek your target. You can't do that with Scepter and Staff ones, you have to spent time to cast them.Take care.

yeah before you did your commentary i fixed the math calculation to be like that 20x2+5x2=50 and that while you said that axe amb need to reach is the base problem of this conversation it needs to be on more range or more reach speed and i prefer range 900 for example.

[Lotheap Mitty.6103]

@Yukio blaster.9082 said:don't forget that torment do much more damage to moving targets and confusion do more damage per skill use so the dmg calculation you did on the golem isn't precise in anyway .same thing on AXEI did more test on moving golem with full vuln, and all boons on myself. Even when axe clones are struggling to keep up (and can't use false oasis), axe still does the same damage as scepter. While staff does 1/3 more damage. Scepter is just not viable in PvE.and by calculationg the stackxduration the axe do more damage overtime but the scepter is much bustier 12x5=60 and 20x2+5x2=50 and sceptre Ambush is hard to calculate the actual damage anyway. cos it more RNG based you may get a torment or a confusion per hit . and about clones doing only the first stage that's actually meaningless cos the sceptre auto attack first and second stage are the same and the third stage is a clone creation so clearly the clone can't create a clone !! and saying that the skill is slow are you serious !!!!!! its 5 hits man not 1 like the staff or approximately the AXE, the sceptre AMB is more like a channelling beam that Confusing Images (sceptre 3) do, or take it as hitting 5 times the auto attack with lighting speed. cos it's hard very hard or impossible to calculate the ambush damage of any weapon by only applying it on the golem, especially the axe cos the clones are all ready hitting the target with the torment and bleeding and don't forget the base dmg ,and after or when the Ambush is used the clones will still be hitting so what you did don't get us anyway further.With RNG just use the average, assume it does 2.5 stacks of each torment/confusion. Why are you judging damage by number of hits, not all hits do the same damage. You are saying like scepter ambush does 5x the damage of all other ambushes. Scepter's final auto does 9 seconds of torment if you have max illusions, you should be looking to finish a whole chain before doing anything else, and your clone doesn't do that.and about the auto-attack i agree that the axe is the best in term of damage from the player or the clones but we are comparing here the AMBUSH skill's and the usability of them .Looking at only the ambush is meaningless since you won't be using only the ambush skill.

[Arlette.9684]

My observations based on duo capping towers in WvW. With my pair playing the same spec/prof.We seem to drop the tower lord about 20% faster when I camp staff vs me rolling 44 stacks of confusion on him (my new post nerf/buff static target record).I give that mostly to the nature of how confusion works and the scarcity of attacks the lord casts.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

Disagree on both. Imaginary Axe is amazing at stacking confusion. Not only that, but you can use it when having your back facing the target, it has a 600 range (not 200 like mentioned) AND it will auto track a person in stealth. Do not touch this thing!!! its also the only way to stack 30-38 confusion stacks on a player. Axe of Symmetry is a great skill. It my not land as often as i'd like, but its a gap closer, target break, ports axe clones close to the target for a better shatter, 8sec CD, an evade and 5+ confusion stacks. Since its this spammable and applies a good amount of confussion from a single skill, it shouldn't be too easy to land.

What needs a rework or a buff is the axe 2, Lingering Thoughts. Not only is the damage mediocre, it also roots you during the animation. Using it on something like a warrior, scourge, other mez etc will get you killed. Its a good skill for clone generation, that's about it.

I'm also not a fan of the auto attack. I wish it had 900 range like the Ranger's axe.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:Disagree on both. Imaginary Axe is amazing at stacking confusion. Not only that, but you can use it when having your back facing the target, it has a 600 range (not 200 like mentioned) AND it will auto track a person in stealth. Do not touch this thing!!! its also the only way to stack 30-38 confusion stacks on a player. Axe of Symmetry is a great skill. It my not land as often as i'd like, but its a gap closer, target break, ports axe clones close to the target for a better shatter, 8sec CD, an evade and 5+ confusion stacks. Since its this spammable and applies a good amount of confussion from a single skill, it shouldn't be too easy to land.

What needs a rework or a buff is the axe 2, Lingering Thoughts. Not only is the damage mediocre, it also roots you during the animation. Using it on something like a warrior, scourge, other mez etc will get you killed. Its a good skill for clone generation, that's about it.

I'm also not a fan of the auto attack. I wish it had 900 range like the Ranger's axe.

The 200 range you said i mentions i literally copied the skill info from the wiki so tell then that the rang is 600 !!!!!! IMAGINARY AXE need to have more range and i'm wondering how you disagree with me !!! when you are asking for the auto attack to be 900 range !!!!!!!!!!!!!! and you went the Ambush skill to stay 480 seek range what you said need to be revised.Axe of Symmetry this skill need a rework man and it not hitting your target for no reason need to be fixed and i prefer the skill to be Nerfed but instead making it more util by increasing it base range or reducing the cast time so when you land the skill the target would still be in rang, and not like every time the slow skill cast and the weird rotation after the shadow step cos the skill to be useless. that's make the skill effective only if the target is 400 and you will miss if more than that.About the auto attack it' the most damaging auto for the Mesmer and the clones can do the full rotation of it and its made to be a melee weapon so i don't see that they gonna make it ranged, however giving the Mesmer some buffs when using the skill like might (5 sec) or quickness (2 sec) would be great.Axe 2 need to be an evade something like sword 2 and i don't think that it would be op will adding 1 sec in count recharge or instead of that increasing the range so it became a gap closer and a mobility skill, so the axe would be more used for condition builds, cos seeing pro players using sword when playing condition builds is stupid .

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Lingering Thoughts is a bit sluggish to use. Maybe remove self root, and reduce aftercast?

Let me dump both ammo and flip around twice without ever hitting the ground. Or, if the aftercast must be the same... The add an evade frame.

[Arlette.9684]

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:Lingering Thoughts is a bit sluggish to use. Maybe remove self root, and reduce aftercast?

Let me dump both ammo and flip around twice without ever hitting the ground. Or, if the aftercast must be the same... The add an evade frame.

They already reduced the aftercast with the mini balance patch. The rooting is the problem, methinks.