Full feedback on Rifle and Deadeye!

[Kurow.6973]

LONG POST AHEAD:

So, after spending an enormous amount of time playing around with Deadeye and Rifle in both sPvP, WvW, and PvE, I have finally decided to work on this thread. This will likely go overlooked by devs, as most things posted on this sub-forum seems to do, but I am going to do my part anyway.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you it's complete trash (because it's not), nor am I going to tell you it's amazing and at its best state (because it's not). If you are looking for confirmation for either of those, move on - this is not the thread for you. What I will highlight in this thread are the things that Deadeye would need in order to let it shine in each gamemode. I will not be discussing the range problem (particularly with ranger) because that's already been beaten to a pulp for over 5 years...and ANet doesn't seem to care.

The cut from PvP tab was taken about a week and a half or so ago. The height was 1783, and I have since fallen (quite significantly in my opinion) because of some unrelated problems; matchmaking and PvP population, as well as my personal goal related problems, and thus irrelevant to this thread. At the time of the screenshot, approximately a little over 150 games were played (even more now) with pure Rifle with Shortbow on swap Deadeye.

I will go through each individual skills and traits in an attempt to highlight any problem areas that should be addressed, if any; so, this will be a long post. Also, be aware that there is most likely some/a lot of things here that has already been mentioned before. I will primarily discuss the points in terms of PvP, but I will address PvE things as well where I feel it's needed.

---

Deadeye's Mark:

Observations:

The idea behind malice is decent at best. I would have preferred a completely different mechanic, but I'll leave it out for now - people who have discussed elite spec ideas with me knows what I'm referring to.

It's a slightly longer ranged steal that resets on kills and for once, provides reliable quickness if traited (to be honest, the best trait in slot). It is still a demanding class specialty that relies heavily on buffing it through traits under trickery (as always, a NECESSITY for anything PvP) - nothing has changed here and it won't be changing any time soon because it's a completely separate problem that ANet is not willing to address.

Have I noticed a particular problem with malice itself? Not necessarily. It has potential to be competitive with Steal, but the current execution is very poor. It also does not help that all the stolen abilities are VERY underwhelming compared to the stolen abilities you receive through Steal. There's only a set number of stolen abilities that provide any kind of tactical play.

These are:

• Steal Mobility: Ranger - probably the most useful one among them all, even considering the plethora of condi removal options Ranger players have in PvP.
• Steal Precision: Thief - second most useful with an on demand blind which can hit through stealth. Do not pick fights with any of them, unless you can get the jump on them.
• Steal Defenses: Guardian - very careful play required because of the plethora of blocks the class has. Plays against the class in reality ends up with you using the skill to simply remove their Aegis for you to land your actual damaging skills. If they are a Firebrand you should not be wasting time fighting them by yourself anyway - they're bullshit (separate problem).
• Steal Time: Mesmer - more quickness, though usually not required. You shouldn't be picking fights with them anyway, unless you manage to catch them off guard with their skills/dodge on cd. Mirage is complete bullshit, but that's a separate problem.

Every other stolen ability can be popped immediately with no thought or tactical plays being required. The damage dealt by every single stolen ability is INSIGNIFICANT at best.

Having said that, the rate of malice generation is EXTREMELY slow and is the biggest fault of the entire system. The specialty of Deadeye's Mark, the Malice system has hardly any presence. You can quite literally mark one target and simply focus another one, causing players not paying attention to waste their dodges in anticipation of a burst because the bonus from Malice is that insignificant. Malice generation is also awful in PvE, as one would expect. The fastest possible way to gain Malice is through Revealed Malice, and even if you capitalize on it in PvE through stealth rotations, the overall generation is still underwhelming.

Possible fixes:

• Improve Malice generation rate. There's absolutely no question about this. Halve the base generation time. Ie: Passive to 2s and Attacking to 1s.
• Either increase the damage dealt by the underwhelming stolen abilities, or change them to crit 100% of the time.
• Alter some of the effects of the stolen abilities. I'm sorry, but they are simply not good overall.
• Change traits under Deadeye to make it better (I will get to this later).

  ---

  Traits:

Observations:

Having attempted various types of builds in every single game mode, including attempting to make "PS DE" work, I can confirm that the bottom row of traits: One in the Chamber, Peripheral Vision, and Fire for Effect are a complete waste of slot in their current implementation. At no point in time do they serve a better use than the other 6 possible traits. Completely and utterly useless. I can't even begin to defend them. I will suggest possible ways to improve/alter them under possible fixes.

Revealed Malice is a decent trait for PvE. In its current implementation, it most certainly helps with the atrocious Malice generation. Even if base generation rate is improved, the value of this trait will not change. I have not particularly found a reason to dismiss it - for a major adept trait, it has its uses. It was purely useless in PvP though over the better choice, Iron Sight. Iron Sight has a serious problem that really bothered me in every single scenario though: it does NOT reduce damage from conditions...and in a condi focused meta that has only been getting worse every step of the way, the trait quickly becomes effectively irrelevant.

I've noticed quite a few people complain about the heal from Renewing Gaze, and though I wholeheartedly agree with it being completely insignificant, it's only a bonus on top of the refreshing effect. Even though I would appreciate a better heal from it, or a direct heal instead of a pitiful regeneration, I don't particularly have much of a problem with it.

On to the major masters, I don't particularly like the fact that Sniper's Cover is locked behind Silent Scope. It literally forces you to take the trait any time you plan on using Rifle in any game mode, because Kneel itself is just plain bad. More on this later. Unforgiving however is a good pickup in very specific builds (anything that does not utilize Rifle) and situations. It would see far more plays if the problem with Silent Scope and Kneel was addressed. I do believe it should make your first attack unblockable though.

I have had no complaints about perfectionist in its core essence, because I believe it can prove to be a beneficial trait if Malice generation was addressed (it NEEDS to be addressed). Major grandmasters though are completely dominated by a single trait: Be Quick or Be Killed. This trait is simply the best in slot in ALL situations...and not because it's overpowered or anything, but because the other 2 are EXTREMELY underwhelming. It's comparable to Sleight of Hand, where you are ALWAYS going to take it, unless you want to be a snowflake or run a snowflake build and be less effective than you could be. Maleficent Seven isn't even a better choice over Be Quick or Be Killed in PvE - solo or group play. It's simply far too underwhelming.

Possible fixes:

• Iron Sight needs to reduce condi damage, not just power.
• Silent Scope needs to be changed to: add +1 charges (so, from 2 to 3) and 20% critical chance (what it already does). Kneel needs to be completely scrapped from the game and permanently replaced with Sniper's Cover.
• Maleficent Seven: Keep it as it is, but add an extra effect to the Maleficent Seven buff, like convert 1 condi to boon every second for 7 seconds or 7 seconds of Superspeed. Then at least, MAYBE, it will see some play over the clearly better choice, Be Quick or Be Killed.
• One in the Chamber: NEEDS to reduce cantrip cds by 20%. Interacts VERY poorly with Mercy and the INSIGNIFICANT stolen skills. Change the trait from gaining a random stolen skill to something along the lines of: using a cantrip regenerates 2 initiatives.
• Peripheral Vision is simply bad. I'm sorry, but this trait is completely and utterly useless. It serves no actual purpose. If anything, stolen abilities from Deadeye should have had this as baseline so they weren't as bad as they are to begin with. Instead, the trait should have been something like: Increase the power and ferocity of nearby allies (600 range) by 100 when you have max Malice stacks.
• Now, for Fire for Effect. Oh god, this trait...such a joke. You nerf PS war and try allow people to stack might a different way, while making it so Druids can literally fill that role by themselves and nerf this trait. Are you serious? Why? What is the thought process? Just like Peripheral Vision, this trait is simply awful. This trait needs to go - it serves no purpose. I propose you replace the effect with something like: daze enemies you hit with stolen abilities for 1s (with a 3s cd). At least then it would have some kind of ability to compete for slot in specific situations and gamemodes.

  ---

  Rifle:

Observations:

Where to begin. Alright; so, Rifle is not actually as bad as people make it sound. Is it the worst thing thief could have gotten....in my opinion, yes (along with longbow). However, that's besides the point. We're more concerned about how it performs and how it can be improved. The recent change to initiative costs in PvE showed a glaring problem with the set. It's an initiative hog and it does not pay for the cost involved. This is especially bad for the one skill that ANet wants people to use: Death's Judgement (DJ). The skill is not as amazing as they want it to be - more on this coming up.

The auto attack is disappointing to say the least. The auto attack NEEDS to pierce. That is quite literally all it needs. It does not need unblockable, it does not need damage boost, it does not need bounce...no, it needs none of that. A simple pierce is all it needs.

Cursed Bullet is mostly an awful skill and I found myself forgoing its usage far more than I'd like to admit. It was more efficient to simply use Skirmisher's Shot or Double Tap than using Cursed Bullet. The only time I even bothered trying to actively use it was when my target was blocking, and even then it was heavily dependent on my surrounding and positioning. The bullet is EXTREMELY slow and unreliable. The bullet tends to fly off to nowhere land quite often, especially if there's any sort of gap...because it's "tracking". It would be better to simply make it a normal projectile, similar to Skirmisher's Shot.

Though I understand where people are coming from while requesting Skirmisher's Shot provide swiftness for simply using it, I do not think that is necessary. What I do think needs to happen is its Kneel version, Spotter's Shot needs the same cast time as Skirmisher's Shot. Furthermore, Initiative cost reduction on Death's Retreat (DR) and DJ needs to apply to PvP. DR is far too taxing for what it does. There's other things I'd like to see with DR, but I'll cover that in Possible fixes.

I'm unsure why Double Tap and TRB is not consistent with Unload's might duration, but that is something I found very strange and felt should be addressed. Unload, for instance, is a far better alternative in terms of initiative investment for the outcome you receive. Do I think you should receive initiative refund? No! But, a simply change to might duration would not hurt the weaponset.

Kneel skills are hardly worth the use, especially in PvP. You know it's a serious problem when people aren't even kneeling except to gain access to stealth. What I found worked best on Rifle gameplay was in fact standing around 80% of the time and very rarely kneeling for the skills themselves - primarily to use Three Round Burst (TRB). There's a reason why I rarely found myself using DJ - good luck landing any DJ with reflects and cluster fuck teamfights. You can't even land reliable DJ on downed enemies with effortless body blocking. It's simply not worth the initiative investment. In a game where it's all about mobility, movement, and active combat, it's utterly stupid to expect players to sit around...especially when mobility and gap closer skills are being handed out like candy to all classes ever since elite specs became a thing.

Possible fixes:

• Auto attack NEEDS to pierce.
• Cursed bullet NEEDS to be a regular projectile, similar to Skirmisher's Shot.
• Spotter's Shot's cast time is far to slow. It's basically Body Shot nonsense all over again. The cast time needs to be the same as Skirmisher's Shot
• Double Tap and TRB's might duration needs to be the same as Unload's (8s).
• Death's Retreat needs to be unblockable and apply blind. The poison is not a necessity; blind serves a better purpose for the skill. The range can also be increased to 900.

  ---

  Utility Skills:

Observations:

Honestly, I personally feel like all the effects of the utilities are in fairly good position, with the exception of two: Binding Shadow and Shadow Flare. However, they direly require a lower cd, especially the heal. This can be addressed simply by applying one of the changes I mentioned before (20% cd reduction with One in the Chamber).

The problem I have with Shadow Flare is that it is far too weak for what it does. It needs a base damage buff. The only place it possibly can see a play in is in PvE; however, currently, it is far too underwhelming. As for Binding Shadow, though the effect is great, the execution is poor. Not only does the skill need LoS to be cast, but because of the way the skill works, the effect can also be LoS'd before it triggers. So, you have to maintain LoS throughout the entire process - it is nothing but an annoyance.

Possible fixes:

• Increase base damage for Shadow Flare.
• Fix the way Binding Shadow casts and activates?!? Not sure how I can explain this.

  ---

  Overall, Deadeye has potential. It can be fun in the current meta, but it needs a helping hand that ANet needs to give it without being so overly scared to get there. It's not a complete "trash" spec, but it's not "good" either. It's still trying to find its place and it needs to be more than just a rifle-centric spec to succeed going forward. It also needs to have a more focus on getting to max Malice stacks and work with it. Getting max Malice stacks should feel rewarding and impacting - there's no real sense of impact.

TLDR: There is no tldr.

[Jinks.2057]

TRB needs it's damage back if Anet refuses to address anything else.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Jinks.2057 said:TRB needs it's damage back if Anet refuses to address anything else.

But then no one will use that “Awesome” skill that Big K made, as shown by the Deadeye forum post.

[Jinks.2057]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@"Jinks.2057" said:TRB needs it's damage back if Anet refuses to address anything else.

But then no one will use that “Awesome” skill that Big K made, as shown by the Deadeye forum post.

"THAT'S NOT THE WAY I WANT YOU TO PLAY!!!! YOU PLAY MY WAY OR NOT AT ALL!!!"

TRB nerfed, UC nerfed, etc, etc, etc

[Draxus.8570]

hey guys, first time posting here. I just hit 80 yesterday--is this build still relevant? He doesn't use the big OHKO move, but instead double tap twice. It looks way more efficient:

[Captain Obvious.6951]

@Kurow.6973 said:Having said that, the rate of malice generation is EXTREMELY slow and is the biggest fault of the entire system. The specialty of Deadeye's Mark, the Malice system has hardly any presence.While I do agree malice generates too slow you definitely cannot say it has hardly any presence.

When I'm in SPvP if I mark a target ... 99% of the time they will dodge immediately, pop a blocking skill or generally just start running their butt off and hiding.

So I usually don't do anything after I pop the mark. Now I'm not dealing any damage... but that's OK. Our opponents are using cooldowns, wasting endurance or hiding and not helping their team. For quite literally zero investment on our part.

The parts I dislike the most though is how slow it generates, and the fact that it wears off giving us a timer to use our skills on them. With many of our skills lasting longer per malice point.... it's really annoying you only have a 5-6 second window being at 6-7 marks before the darn skill just wears off altogether.

[Asur.9178]

@Captain Obvious.6951 said:While I do agree malice generates too slow you definitely cannot say it has hardly any presence.

When I'm in SPvP if I mark a target ... 99% of the time they will dodge immediately, pop a blocking skill or generally just start running their butt off and hiding.

So I usually don't do anything after I pop the mark. Now I'm not dealing any damage... but that's OK. Our opponents are using cooldowns, wasting endurance or hiding and not helping their team. For quite literally zero investment on our part.

The parts I dislike the most though is how slow it generates, and the fact that it wears off giving us a timer to use our skills on them. With many of our skills lasting longer per malice point.... it's really annoying you only have a 5-6 second window being at 6-7 marks before the darn skill just wears off altogether.

@Kurow.6973 said:You can quite literally mark one target and simply focus another one, causing players not paying attention to waste their dodges in anticipation of a burst because the bonus from Malice is that insignificant.

I think you may have misunderstood what he meant. I cannot speak for him, but that sentence leads me to believe that it is because it's insignificant that he is able to waste it by marking an enemy that's not his main target, and deal a similar amount of damage to another one in the same time frame where he could deal the same damage to the marked target. Meaning, the damage gain is insignificant soon after marking a target. So, he can simply mark and move on to another target. At least that's what I can make out of it.

[Zacchary.6183]

Thank you Kurow for a thorough and unbiased post. The thief community needs more of this.

[Draxus.8570]

Er, anyone comment on his build in video please? >.<

[Asur.9178]

@Draxus.8570 said:Er, anyone comment on his build in video please? >.<

This is not the right thread for it, but anything that uses berserker runes on thief for sPvP is considered bad.

[Draxus.8570]

Ok, that's fair...I'm only interested in openworld pve lol

[babazhook.6805]

On reading the OP's concerns and observations, I can only conclude he is speaking to a narrowly defined build and Role for the Thief.

As example, contrary to some others conclusions, DE is very good in a Condition build. If I were on my condition build the Necormancer stolen abilities is very potent as I can use that skill to quickly stack 20 bleeds and 6 poison and 10 confusion. You can very often down a Necro(scourge/repear) from 1500 range just using that stolen skill. BY the same token its usefulness drops when in a power build.

The Engineer stolen skill is also very useful especially in group play where Peripheral and Fire for effect traited. I have used this many times to put protection on members of my group , even as Vulnerability stacked on a multiple of enemies. Again the effectiveness of this drops if you are just running solo That said the combination of lead attacks with Vuln on enemy (25 percent boost to damage right there) while getting protection makes this one of my own favorite skills as it helps counter the holosmith/engie skills very well in either condition or power builds and no matter the weaponset.

In Condition builds Fire for effect and Peripheral are preferred to the other skills as the Peripheral adds to condition damage output and the FFE allows you to easily stack 25 might on yourself for harder ticks for those applied conditions. In power builds Peripheral in particular is far less useful. Consequently I think it an error to suggest these skills as "useless" just as it would be to dismiss BA as useless or Potent Poison as useless.

[Barzah.8019]

Not trying to disappoint you but i don't dev will change malice system anytime soon since many ppl (including me) already putting that feedback since day 2 PoTF, yet their "fix" only make DE life much worse (DJ and stolen item only work on marked target pff). The main reason probably lies on the controversial DJ setup that actually resemble Warrior prenerfed Killshot. Tbh, that skill is not that life threatening compared to many build out there, but it seems that @net re trying so hard not go to that path again so they make an Achilles heel which greatly limit Deadeye potential (with/without using rifle weapon).

Speaking about trait, Be Quick or Be Killed (BqBk) give the user an option to do quick "Hit & run" which is THE general tactic for direct dmg thief build. Maleficent 7 on the other hand used to be decent for rifle user (not for anything else sadly) because you can save all those malice and then 2 shot someone else in that order, but that "fix" make the talent not worth the effort because BqBk + Haste + (optional) Mercy perform way better on every situation.

RIfle in general is actually decent, but the weapon has two major problem that build a giant wall . The first one is kneel ammunition system, while the system prevent everyone to abuse the stealth system (it's already powerful even with only charges) it also manage to screw up rifle rotation because most of the time you are forced to change place. I believe that removing the stealth effect when kneeling without having ammunition should solve this issues.2nd major problem is...Death's Judgement. @net at this point should be concern about this issues because the best way to play rifle is not use DJ at all since it's unsafe, cost too much, take too long to be effective, and there are tons of mechanic that counter this skill.

For the utility skill i am 100% agree with added -20% cd on one in chamber T1 trait, also some skill like mercy could need a reduction CD while Malicious Restoration definitely need a rework (Maybe add malice instead of based on malice...that would be awesome).

[arenta.2953]

my opinion. with how knockdown/ knockback spammy this game has become in HOT and PoF.

giving thief a source of stability would be nice, as currently its only source is dagger storm(yeah....only 1 skill/trait/ability gives stability...poor thief).....good luck using that in combo with your abilities.....

Kneel is unbearable because of this spam of knocks. so pulsing stability (like engineer's flamethrower) 1 every 3-5 secounds. would be nice for letting the skill work without constantly just being thrown to the wall. some survivability for being forced to give up mobility.

or they could add pulsing Vigor, to let you dodge roll more......or heck gain a 3rd dodge bar while kneeling.

---

• Maleficent Seven: Keep it as it is, but add an extra effect to the Maleficent Seven buff, like convert 1 condi to boon every second for 7 seconds

i'd like this alot....i'd be satisfied if it removes a condition, doesn't even need to change it to a boon. thief's condi removal is rather....specific or restricting. specially with the condi meta. like stealth trait to remove conditions...only damage conditions...not movement......ditto for stealth heal etc etc. compare that to Necro's condi remove in shroud or ranger's removal of any condi with survival skills......

it encourages the thief to engage for those 7 secounds before mark ends. instead of just rehiding

[Urejt.5648]

very nice post. too bad rifle thief is garbage. Hopefully tyhey dont nerf it again. u ask for buffs but anet wants to nerf it hard even more. Dunno why. Anet like to nerf weak pvp build like staff thief now its time to nerf rifle thief even more. Too many negative emoptions about deadeye forced to me pis off. bb

[saerni.2584]

I also want to comment that the mark skills are not useless on a condition build because they can be applied much more frequently than stolen skills.

The traits in the bottom row are all useful in condition based gameplay because the might generation and boons together improve damage and survivability. Even just using a single cantrip in addition to the first mark skill is 16 might to you and whoever is melee range with the target. If the cantrip is Binding Shadow that adds in 15 vulnerability and a hard cc. Any competent team should be able to use that window to their collective advantage.

I’d also like to argue that giving Mercy additional functionality when paired with One in the Chamber is merited. Maybe -5 or -10 seconds on all current cantrip cooldowns. -20% cooldown reduction could also work given how many are on a 30 second timer.

[kash.9213]

@"Barzah.8019" said:Not trying to disappoint you but i don't dev will change malice system anytime soon since many ppl (including me) already putting that feedback since day 2 PoTF, yet their "fix" only make DE life much worse (DJ and stolen item only work on marked target pff). The main reason probably lies on the controversial DJ setup that actually resemble Warrior prenerfed Killshot. Tbh, that skill is not that life threatening compared to many build out there, but it seems that @net re trying so hard not go to that path again so they make an Achilles heel which greatly limit Deadeye potential (with/without using rifle weapon).

Speaking about trait, Be Quick or Be Killed (BqBk) give the user an option to do quick "Hit & run" which is THE general tactic for direct dmg thief build. Maleficent 7 on the other hand used to be decent for rifle user (not for anything else sadly) because you can save all those malice and then 2 shot someone else in that order, but that "fix" make the talent not worth the effort because BqBk + Haste + (optional) Mercy perform way better on every situation.

RIfle in general is actually decent, but the weapon has two major problem that build a giant wall . The first one is kneel ammunition system, while the system prevent everyone to abuse the stealth system (it's already powerful even with only charges) it also manage to screw up rifle rotation because most of the time you are forced to change place. I believe that removing the stealth effect when kneeling without having ammunition should solve this issues.2nd major problem is...Death's Judgement. @net at this point should be concern about this issues because the best way to play rifle is not use DJ at all since it's unsafe, cost too much, take too long to be effective, and there are tons of mechanic that counter this skill.

For the utility skill i am 100% agree with added -20% cd on one in chamber T1 trait, also some skill like mercy could need a reduction CD while Malicious Restoration definitely need a rework (Maybe add malice instead of based on malice...that would be awesome).

I agree about BqBk over Mal-7 right now, especially if you can throw some stuns into that opener.

I'd take a slowed movement in crouch with some stability duration or something over stealth x2 ammunition. I do use kneel a lot but I do also have to re-position almost immediately often and in WvW it's almost always due to terrain or weird path blocking of broken structures or whatever. I like using kneel, even without stealth but it's good either way, it's just too stop and go at the moment, or at least let more shots pierce.

[babazhook.6805]

In most power sets I prefer BqoBk over malificient 7. In P/P i prefer the latter. There a number of reasons for this. One there is a lot more of projectile hate in the way of reflects and blocks then there is normal blocks in the game. Very often on mark an enemy will ready himself to block or dodge. This generally means you get little use out of the On Mark trait and unlike a BV for unblocakble used on a melee set, BV does not work so well with unload. At the same time while true you can oftimes get your full channel through with a faster channel time, it by the same token easier to avoid in its entirety. (I find enemies much more willing to dodge/block an unload channel than a #1 with quickness attack)

We then get the issue with Initiative. In other sets if Initiative low quickness can still be devastating with a weapons 1 attack. This not as true with P/P as the 1 is much weaker. I find a better outcome when I use MALI 7 when in pistols as I can both ramp might and get that Malice up higher which combined together gives substantial damage even in the #1. Generally when In P/P i like to mark and wait a bit before I engage with the unload , using p/p #1 or even headshot early. Mali 7 can allow for much faster malice gen and this just works so well when that unload finally used.

In something like s/d the quickness is much more useful as you are not tied to that more easily blockable/dodgeable Unload with the set and can better take advantage of those first few seconds that it is up. You also have those ports for in and out attacks wherein P/P has to stay at range and rely on ranged attacks. If you take some sort of boon duration and BOA you can string together a lot of quickness wherein you can use the 1 attack to great effect when Ini exhausted or low.

Obviously a lot depends on the offhand set and what that set used for. IE Imy s/d build does use p/p in other hand (WvW) and I tend to switch liberally between the two. It also happens to be my boon duration build (i get 10 seconds quickness on BOA and 6.5 on BqoBk) and I much prefer BqoBk when using it.

That said I think Malificient 7 can still use a slight boost. It has a heal on reaching full stacks. I would suggest either boosting that heal or adding "on reaching 7 stacks perfectionist also cleanses 2 conditions. Hitting 7 takes some time and should have a means by which one can get a nicer rward from the sustain/defense side of things. Converting one condition to a boon once per second is a bit rich.

[Kallist.5917]

@"Kurow.6973" said:Having attempted various types of builds in every single game mode, including attempting to make "PS DE" work, I can confirm that the bottom row of traits: One in the Chamber, Peripheral Vision, and Fire for Effect are a complete waste of slot in their current implementation. At no point in time do they serve a better use than the other 6 possible traits. Completely and utterly useless. I can't even begin to defend them. I will suggest possible ways to improve/alter them under possible fixes.

While I agree with most of what you say, I cannot agree with this. Have you tried running these in groups in PVE? I'll have to record a video next time I'm playing with the guild. These traits, when used with my party, and used with proper utilities, make a champ feel like a vet. 25 Vuln, 25 Might on the group, a handful of boons with 100% uptime, and Condition shares spread across the other 4.. I just need to make a video showing it. There is a visible increase in the damage output of our group.

[Asur.9178]

@Kallist.5917 said:

@"Kurow.6973" said:Having attempted various types of builds in every single game mode, including attempting to make "PS DE" work, I can confirm that the bottom row of traits: One in the Chamber, Peripheral Vision, and Fire for Effect are a complete waste of slot in their current implementation. At no point in time do they serve a better use than the other 6 possible traits. Completely and utterly useless. I can't even begin to defend them. I will suggest possible ways to improve/alter them under possible fixes.

While I agree with most of what you say, I cannot agree with this. Have you tried running these in groups in PVE? I'll have to record a video next time I'm playing with the guild. These traits, when used with my party, and used with proper utilities, make a champ feel like a vet. 25 Vuln, 25 Might on the group, a handful of boons with 100% uptime, and Condition shares spread across the other 4.. I just need to make a video showing it. There is a visible increase in the damage output of our group.

I'm pretty sure what he was getting at is that other classes can do that job better, plus more, which I agree with. I like his suggestion about bonuses thief can provide at max mark. Particularly, the suggestion about a unique buff like 100 power & fero for allies in 600 radius upon having max mark. It would actually give thieves something they've been lacking for years now and make deadeye a suitable role in team compositions.

I've also noticed he doesn't post much, if at all...and if I recall right, he once posted in another thread mentioning he likes to avoid posting and interacting with people people on forums as much as possible. Perhaps he can correct me if I'm wrong?!?

[Kurow.6973]

@Asur.9178 said:I think you may have misunderstood what he meant. I cannot speak for him, but that sentence leads me to believe that it is because it's insignificant that he is able to waste it by marking an enemy that's not his main target, and deal a similar amount of damage to another one in the same time frame where he could deal the same damage to the marked target. Meaning, the damage gain is insignificant soon after marking a target. So, he can simply mark and move on to another target. At least that's what I can make out of it.

Correct!

The damage boosts come so slowly that you can simply use it as a bluff while focusing another target - clearly a bad implementation when a skill's purpose becomes a bluff.

@"Urejt.5648" said:very nice post. too bad rifle thief is garbage. Hopefully tyhey dont nerf it again. u ask for buffs but anet wants to nerf it hard even more. Dunno why. Anet like to nerf weak pvp build like staff thief now its time to nerf rifle thief even more. Too many negative emoptions about deadeye forced to me pis off. bb

As I stated in my post, it is not "garbage" or "trash", but it is not "good" either. At best, it is decent. Part of the reason it is decent is because of the current meta. Once the meta changes, it will likely become much worse. So, if the problem areas are not addressed, it will only suffer.

@saerni.2584 said:I also want to comment that the mark skills are not useless on a condition build because they can be applied much more frequently than stolen skills.

The traits in the bottom row are all useful in condition based gameplay because the might generation and boons together improve damage and survivability. Even just using a single cantrip in addition to the first mark skill is 16 might to you and whoever is melee range with the target. If the cantrip is Binding Shadow that adds in 15 vulnerability and a hard cc. Any competent team should be able to use that window to their collective advantage.

I’d also like to argue that giving Mercy additional functionality when paired with One in the Chamber is merited. Maybe -5 or -10 seconds on all current cantrip cooldowns. -20% cooldown reduction could also work given how many are on a 30 second timer.

The frequency of application is the same on a given target. I am not sure you understand what that means. The fact that it is locked on the marked target and that the type of condi is dependent on your target also makes it worse. Furthermore, the fact that Malice stacks extremely slowly and do NOT affect damage or duration of condis, besides those provided by DE skills, makes it all irrelevant. DD is by far the stronger option in terms of condi. If you fail to comprehend why it is that way, I cannot help you.

I do not actually believe that you understand how team compositions work in the current meta. DE brings absolutely NOTHING that would make any competent player want to consider taking it as any form of support option over another class. If it did, you'd see them in raid compositions. You'd also see them in T4 fractal compositions. However, the truth of the matter is that they are in fact a laughing stock.

@Asur.9178 said:I'm pretty sure what he was getting at is that other classes can do that job better, plus more, which I agree with. I like his suggestion about bonuses thief can provide at max mark. Particularly, the suggestion about a unique buff like 100 power & fero for allies in 600 radius upon having max mark. It would actually give thieves something they've been lacking for years now and make deadeye a suitable role in team compositions.

I've also noticed he doesn't post much, if at all...and if I recall right, he once posted in another thread mentioning he likes to avoid posting and interacting with people people on forums as much as possible. Perhaps he can correct me if I'm wrong?!?

Correct!

The DE fails to bring any kind of competitive support currently (compared to other classes) and applying a change as what I mentioned not only increases the impact of max Malice stacks (which it lacks), but also improves its support options to a degree which is not overpowered, but at the same time, deemed unique and useful in all team related compositions.

PS: If I did not respond to you, it more than likely means that I consider you a troll with ill intentions for the thief class or I simply felt no need to respond to you. You determine where you fall. Do not expect any more responses from me in this thread as I've seen some trolls flooding in. I make it my business to interact as little as possible with people on these forums.

[saerni.2584]

@saerni.2584 said:I also want to comment that the mark skills are not useless on a condition build because they can be applied much more frequently than stolen skills.

The traits in the bottom row are all useful in condition based gameplay because the mightI’d also like to argue that giving Mercy additional functionality when paired with One in the Chamber is merited. Maybe -5 or -10 seconds on all current cantrip cooldowns. -20% cooldown reduction could also work given how many are on a 30 second timer.

The frequency of application is the same on a given target. I am not sure you understand what that means. The fact that it is locked on the marked target and that the type of condi is dependent on your target also makes it worse. Furthermore, the fact that Malice stacks extremely slowly and do NOT affect damage or duration of condis, besides those provided by DEFINITION skills, makes it all irrelevant. DD is by far the stronger option in terms of condi. If you fail to comprehend why it is that way, I cannot help you.

When a cantrip refreshes a mark skill it does so randomly.

I played Core/HoT and PoF condi. Since the start of the game. I can say objectively and subjectively that DE is stronger than DD for at least some condition builds, but particularly for the weapon set I play.

Yes, DD brings some additional cover conditions but otherwise the traits are more sustain bonuses and not damage bonuses. Overall, in comparison to DD a DE gains access to refreshing mark on kill and a lot more might generation than anything other than P/P.

A S/D build focused on evade is probably better using DD for condi. But a P/D stealth build gets a lot out of DE.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@"Kurow.6973" said:Possible fixes:

• Improve Malice generation rate. There's absolutely no question about this. Halve the base generation time. Ie: Passive to 2s and Attacking to 1s.

Increasing Malice generation rate will only pose new problems coming from anyone using P/P and D/D. The solution to this was posted some time ago where it was suggested to keep the current Malice stack while in combat instead of resetting the stack every refresh. Reapplying DE Mark will only produce stolen items if Malice stack already exists.

Another problem with DE Mark is the fact that it mandates that the Thief should stay with ranged weapon thus swapping to a melee weapon is crippling. DE Mark lacks the gap closer that Steal has and this is the very reason why DE builds are too shallow. Having no access to Staff also limits the Thief melee builds to either Sword or Dagger (which is something that needs to be addressed for every profession; break the ties between the weapon and the Elite spec).

In my opinion, they should have kept Steal and have DE passively apply Malice when in combat. The longer the fight, the higher the Malice and DE deals more damage. No need to mark any target since the bonus is applied to the Thief and not on the target -- and Malice stack depletes after combat. No need to make it really complicated.

Possible fixes:

• Auto attack NEEDS to pierce.

Auto-attack just needs to deal more damage. No need to piece since piercing bullet is not a good idea, especially if it cannot be turned off, to have in a non-PvP mode.

• Cursed bullet NEEDS to be a regular projectile, similar to Skirmisher's Shot.

No need to waste resources on this skill. It is useless and nobody uses it.

• Spotter's Shot's cast time is far to slow. It's basically Body Shot nonsense all over again. The cast time needs to be the same as Skirmisher's Shot

Every non-Kneel skills are bad. Every Kneel skills should be the default. Kneel should only improve damage, range and projectile speed...no need for a whole different useless set of skills.

Possible fixes:

• Increase base damage for Shadow Flare.
• Fix the way Binding Shadow casts and activates?!? Not sure how I can explain this.

Every cantrip skill needs base cooldown reduced plus a CDR from the traits.

The Heal skill is also awful, the heal should not be based on Malice stacks if anything it should apply Malice stacks based on health healed (e.g. heals for 10% adds 1 Malice, 20% adds 2 Malice, etc. Max 5 Malice). If we look at the Daredevil heal skill (Channeled Vigor), it doesn't heal based on endurance level, instead if the endurance is low, it refills it.

Overall, Deadeye has potential. It can be fun in the current meta, but it needs a helping hand that ANet needs to give it without being so overly scared to get there. It's not a complete "trash" spec, but it's not "good" either. It's still trying to find its place and it needs to be more than just a rifle-centric spec to succeed going forward. It also needs to have a more focus on getting to max Malice stacks and work with it. Getting max Malice stacks should feel rewarding and impacting - there's no real sense of impact.

The fun of using DE is at the same level as rolling a 1D100 die and hitting 1, in other words, fun level is just 1% and 99% frustrating. That one percent is that moment when I hit someone unaware with DJ and killed them instantly. The other 99% is when DJ didn't connect and I am a literal sitting duck. In PvE, there's no way to control a big group (aka Crowd Control) with Rifle and there's no way to reposition since the skill that gives shadowstep has a long ass cooldown. On top of that, DE lacks AoE.

DE cool factor is not even on top either since Spellbreaker is way cooler.

I am really skeptic concerning the "potential" of DE. The design and the mechanic is trash, except for Shadow Meld. At the end of the day, I still end up using DD and forget that DE ever happen.

[Asur.9178]

@"saerni.2584" said:When a cantrip refreshes a mark skill it does so randomly.

I played Core/HoT and PoF condi. Since the start of the game. I can say objectively and subjectively that DE is stronger than DD for at least some condition builds, but particularly for the weapon set I play.

Yes, DD brings some additional cover conditions but otherwise the traits are more sustain bonuses and not damage bonuses. Overall, in comparison to DD a DE gains access to refreshing mark on kill and a lot more might generation than anything other than P/P.

A S/D build focused on evade is probably better using DD for condi. But a P/D stealth build gets a lot out of DE.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lotus_Training

I don't think you understand what makes DD a better condi option than DE. There's a very good reason skilled players currently laugh at the idea of a "PS thief" and a "condi DE". You also make it sound like he hates the idea of condi DE, when in fact, the way I see it, based on his most recent response and his original post, he mentions why condi DE is a poor option and suggests ways it can be improved.

He seems to have tried to objectively go through all aspects of DE from high level plays and suggest ways to improve its performance going forward, but all some people see is "reeeeeee I hate DE", even though that clearly seems to not be the case based on him playing DE in high tier sPvP and based on him mentioning numerous times that:

@"Kurow.6973" said:As I stated in my post, it is not "garbage" or "trash", but it is not "good" either. At best, it is decent.

I'm starting to see why players like him avoids interacting with people in this forum. It's like trying to have a logical discussion with a flat Earth believer.

[saerni.2584]

I’m all for buffing condi options for DE. But if you think it is objectively worth laughing at you would be mistaken.

I’m not going to explain why your ad hominem attacks are patently obvious and invalid and why you shouldn’t just assume you are more educated or intelligent than the people around you.

What I will do is engage with the claim that lotus training alone is better than everything DE offers. Lotus Training isn’t bad by any means. But the reapplicability of might, conditions and boons with 1500 range and better access to stealth than Daredevil is nothing to dismiss either.

Lotus training gets 10% bonus to condition damage. DE gets up to 25 might stacks and easier access to long duration vulnerability. If we compare condition application, condition damage bonus and defensive (boons and stealth vs evade) the comparison is favorable to Deadeye. Unless we start considering the now nerfed UC as an absolute must take for all thief builds the choice isn’t clearly in favor of Daredevil for some, but not all, thief condition builds.