Rate the SHORTBOW on a scale of 10

[EnderzShadow.2506]

@Fluffball.8307 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@Fluffball.8307 said:I get annoyed at the dumb "needs a complete rework" rehashes, what exactly do you want a complete rework of? Should we replace the daze with a stun?

The skills on the weapon are excellent. It needs more damage.

the skills?

That kitten sucks. The weapon sucks.

yes rework all that kitten. It's all bad.

and its not like it wasn't done before, just look at Longbow.

maybe I am going overboard with the 'whole weapon' thing.

But a lot of it just doesn't work. Changing the dmg is in no way, a fix for sbow.

The evade is bad. Not particularly fond of any backward evades. In pvp it doesn't keep one in the fight very well...it's just a bad retreat that will only buy you seconds.Compare it to a staff 3----- Imagine that, if sbow had a staff 3 HA!

The bleeds? Eh maybe if it was a true hybrid weapon?

No situational flanking or being behind a target--that is just bad.No one is going to run from a shortbow ranger and there is no shortbow way to get behind a target.What if there was a 'staff 3 like ability' that put a sbow ranger behind their target--wow.

Lastly, the range, the range, the range, the range. Can't say it enough. It;s too short. Unless they want to give some amazing movement abilities to the ranger like the obnoxious ones I mentioned above. Then the range wouldn't be so bad.

I don't think you can directly compare SB3 with staff 3. Staff 3 is a movement skill, SB3 is an evade and swiftness. The hop backwards just lets you be more elusive. The zero direction requirement is underrated as well. Out of all the skills on SB, I think this one is the best. 5 is of course amazing but the CD is a bit long.

Never compared any skill directly with another one.

I was just pointing out how bad many skills of the sbow are. I also mentioned some crazy off the cuff ideas I had while writing my response.Which I might add, I like.

Just want to point out, everything about the staff works.It would be lovely to feel as confident about the reworked (probably never happen) skills on the shortbow.

[Fluffball.8307]

@"EnderzShadow.2506" said:I was just pointing out how bad many skills of the sbow are. I also mentioned some crazy off the cuff ideas I had while writing my response.Which I might add, I like.

Just want to point out, everything about the staff works.It would be lovely to feel as confident about the reworked (probably never happen) skills on the shortbow.

All of your concerns can be simplified to it not doing damage though. The situational positioning hampers DPS and there wouldn't need to be ways to get behind an opponent if you didn't need to get behind an opponent. The only other concern was that the evade was "bad" but that doesn't make sense if you view it as an evade and swiftness provider instead of a movement skill.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

So if I didnt have to get behind an opponent to daze or stun--sure good change.

And the evade, let's be real-- I don't want to make believe.

If the evade was more of a blink skill, a movement forward --now that would be awesome.We could call it, grappling hook.

More range would still help

And that point blank bs, scrap that entirely--reminds me of axe 2.It should be all those stacks in one shot regardless of range.

Maybe add in a stealth (like lb)

Or

Some kind of unblockable/dodgeable slow-mud shot.

Again-- off the cuff thoughts

[Fluffball.8307]

I am not understanding why you don't like the evade. That's huge for PvP, and it's on a great CD, even better than offhand dagger. The slight hop and swiftness are a underrated big deal when dealing with a melee opponent... just makes you that much more annoying. It may be underrated because any SB ranger you meet is probably 1) pretty inexperienced and 2) running traps so just standing in front of your mauls of 100bs anyway.

Edit: Also just to clarify I'm mostly a WvW roamer. There are some build/role problems associated with SB in PvP but that's sort of a different topic. I'm looking at it almost purely from a skirmish perspective. In the past SB found plenty of roles even at the highest tournament levels, it just didn't keep up with the times at all. The first ever tournament had I think 4/10 players running SB ranger.

[Euthymias.7984]

Better than Renegade/10If you made the flanking requirement on Auto Attack's bleed baseline and maybe rework Skill 2 to not be a poison shotgun spray while keeping its overall damage, it would be pretty perfect. Hell, maybe even change flanking to have different effects on certain skills instead of more powerful versions of what exist instead (when traited maybe).

[Colly.4073]

For PvE - 5/10For PvP/WvW - 0/10 useless

[Lazze.9870]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@"Barry Moonfang.6897" said:I actually quite like the shortbow for PvE, especially after the buffs, so 7,5/10. Works wel with a Soulbeast condi build.For PvP it isn't as good as flanking is pretty hard.

What buffs are we talking about? The small % of power increase in a wannabe condi weapon?

Personally, i can't believe why aren't they properly buffing or reworking the weapon. they did that to LB, a weapon everyone laughed at, and now everyone uses. I don't know what is anet doing, they feel completely out of it. Or maybe they aren't buffing it before its "meta" in pve lol thing is, its certainly not SB that is dealing any damage worth while in the meta build. SB is just an auto attack spam until axe/torch is off of CD.

If there was a definition of mediocrity, SB would be it. 4/10 for pvp. 5.5/10 pve. Garbage since 2012 when they nerfed its range (but its not like its old range would've been any good in the current pvp meta. It'd be as kitten as its currently is).

This weapon needs a complete rework. Not a 11% power increase on an auto attack that deals 7 damage to begin with, Anet......................

What buffs? It used to be even worse. Autos didn't bleed unless you flanked. Crippling shot was just that, cripple, before they added immob on flanking. The trait has been buffed. It's a staple of pve group content, it makes no sense to give it a 5/10 in terms of how effective it is. It's not garbage in pve, it's just boring. In pvp it's both boring and garbage.

As for my rating: boring/10. I hate this weapon.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

I'm not sure why people are rating it so low for PvE. I know PvE isn't just raids but ranger also has a pet to take aggro to flank stuff for less organized content. Would put it at 9/10 would camp when I'm lazy. Enjoy the condi SB and druid playstyle in raids/fotm.

That being said, while I think it's cool that a pet class has flanking bonuses, I have an issue with the flanking bonus design on ranger traits. I like the concept but why is the GM trait for flanking affecting SB when SB has no flanking moves when Sword3/Dagger 4 are the flanking moves/weapons that don't receive a bonus for flanking. Instead of LotF being 10% bonus after dodging, I'd like to see a bonus dmg when flanking with ALL weapons. Lotf Apply 2 second bleed per attack with ALL weapons when flanking with no ICD. This would be essentially the same bonus damage on SB1/2 that the trait currently has. It just buffs the other weapons to apply more pressure when flanking. This would promote the evasive backstabby Sw/D combo. Vicious quarry remains the power choice and QD is still awesome utility.

If they want to keep SB skills with flanking bonuses, change SB3 to work like Sw3/d4 to get behind the target. Alternatively, if they don't change SB3 (I'm ok with the hop/evade backwards), Sw/d needs something to root your target so that you can duel with sw/d then swap to SB for a burst after rooting them for PvP. Example for dagger 4: Evade and poison your target. If you hit the target in the back, immobilize them for 2 seconds.

TLDR: I have no problem with SB per say in PvP but there needs to be better flanking synergy in general for ranger.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@"Barry Moonfang.6897" said:I actually quite like the shortbow for PvE, especially after the buffs, so 7,5/10. Works wel with a Soulbeast condi build.For PvP it isn't as good as flanking is pretty hard.

What buffs are we talking about? The small % of power increase in a wannabe condi weapon?

Personally, i can't believe why aren't they properly buffing or reworking the weapon. they did that to LB, a weapon everyone laughed at, and now everyone uses. I don't know what is anet doing, they feel completely out of it. Or maybe they aren't buffing it before its "meta" in pve lol thing is, its certainly not SB that is dealing any damage worth while in the meta build. SB is just an auto attack spam until axe/torch is off of CD.

If there was a definition of mediocrity, SB would be it. 4/10 for pvp. 5.5/10 pve. Garbage since 2012 when they nerfed its range (but its not like its old range would've been any good in the current pvp meta. It'd be as kitten as its currently is).

This weapon needs a complete rework. Not a 11% power increase on an auto attack that deals 7 damage to begin with, Anet......................

What buffs? It used to be even worse. Autos didn't bleed unless you flanked. Crippling shot was just that, cripple, before they added immob on flanking. The trait has been buffed. It's a staple of pve group content, it makes no sense to give it a 5/10 in terms of how effective it is. It's not garbage in pve, it's just boring. In pvp it's both boring and garbage.

As for my rating: boring/10. I hate this weapon.

They added immob on crippling shot so long time ago. I thought we were talking about the last SB buff, which was just small percentages to power damage. A useless buff.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@Fluffball.8307 said:I am not understanding why you don't like the evade. That's huge for PvP, and it's on a great CD, even better than offhand dagger. The slight hop and swiftness are a underrated big deal when dealing with a melee opponent... just makes you that much more annoying. It may be underrated because any SB ranger you meet is probably 1) pretty inexperienced and 2) running traps so just standing in front of your mauls of 100bs anyway.

Edit: Also just to clarify I'm mostly a WvW roamer. There are some build/role problems associated with SB in PvP but that's sort of a different topic. I'm looking at it almost purely from a skirmish perspective. In the past SB found plenty of roles even at the highest tournament levels, it just didn't keep up with the times at all. The first ever tournament had I think 4/10 players running SB ranger.

Maybe I don't understand what is your point. Tell me if I am wrong: so basically you want to tell us that SB is not so bad for WvW? What it is so huge for PVP the evade of SB when after that evade you are dead anyway?For all ppl who still questioning if SB is more than 0/10 for PVP (both sPVP and WvW) I tell you this:LB gives us:

1. Higher damage
2. +1500 range!!!! .... I don't know why ppl are saying that if SB will get some more damage will be good enough like LB ... with only 900 range SB will NEVER be like LB. Most of the classes now have more than 900 range. So instead of kite (one of the thing Ranger do in most of the games) we should run after every class :D
3. Invisibility (Hunter's Shot) pwn every skill of SB or even all together :)
4. Point Black Shot .... what can I say, 3 times better than Quick Shot. And you can kill with it someone who is gliding at higher high, push him over the edge etc ...

Anyway, atm for PVP, Shortbow is dead, zero, nada, nothing ... 0/10 (and not only because of the weapon itself, but because you must use traits line and utilities who don't give you nothing regarding survivability)

[Fluffball.8307]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:Maybe I don't understand what is your point. Tell me if I am wrong: so basically you want to tell us that SB is not so bad for WvW? What it is so huge for PVP the evade of SB when after that evade you are dead anyway?

No, that's not even close to what I've been saying? :) I'd rate it about a 1/10 for PvP and 4/10 for WvW. I repeatedly said it needs more damage to be used.

My point was the utility it has is good enough that it would absolutely see use as a competitive condi weapon if it had more damage.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

Dream SB

1. Autos pierce and apply 3sec of bleeding. If hit from the back or the sides, apply 2sec of Torment instead
2. Poison Volley removed. Skill is replaced by Burning Arrow. Fire a Burning Arrow that explodes on impact (180 explosion range) and inflicts 3 stacks of Burning for 1sec
3. Quick Shot leap increased to 600 range. Swiftness stays and you also apply 2 stacks of Poison for 4sec. CD increased to 10sec
4. Crippling Shot renamed to Immobilizing Shot. Immob the target for 2sec and apply 5 stacks of bleeding for 6sec. CD increased to 15sec
5. Concussion Shot stuns for 2sec from any angle. If the skill is interrupted, you apply 5 stacks of Confusion for 5 sec and this skill recharges 25% faster

But what am i dreaming about, SB is not allowed to be a powerful weapon worth using...

[Lazze.9870]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@"Barry Moonfang.6897" said:I actually quite like the shortbow for PvE, especially after the buffs, so 7,5/10. Works wel with a Soulbeast condi build.For PvP it isn't as good as flanking is pretty hard.

What buffs are we talking about? The small % of power increase in a wannabe condi weapon?

Personally, i can't believe why aren't they properly buffing or reworking the weapon. they did that to LB, a weapon everyone laughed at, and now everyone uses. I don't know what is anet doing, they feel completely out of it. Or maybe they aren't buffing it before its "meta" in pve lol thing is, its certainly not SB that is dealing any damage worth while in the meta build. SB is just an auto attack spam until axe/torch is off of CD.

If there was a definition of mediocrity, SB would be it. 4/10 for pvp. 5.5/10 pve. Garbage since 2012 when they nerfed its range (but its not like its old range would've been any good in the current pvp meta. It'd be as kitten as its currently is).

This weapon needs a complete rework. Not a 11% power increase on an auto attack that deals 7 damage to begin with, Anet......................

What buffs? It used to be even worse. Autos didn't bleed unless you flanked. Crippling shot was just that, cripple, before they added immob on flanking. The trait has been buffed. It's a staple of pve group content, it makes no sense to give it a 5/10 in terms of how effective it is. It's not garbage in pve, it's just boring. In pvp it's both boring and garbage.

As for my rating: boring/10. I hate this weapon.

They added immob on crippling shot so long time ago. I thought we were talking about the last SB buff, which was just small percentages to power damage. A useless buff.

No. The power buffs came before the rework to flanking skills. Poison Volley as an example:

October 18, 2016

This skill's cooldown has been reduced to 8 seconds.Its poison effect will last 2 seconds longer when this skill is applied from behind your target.April 19, 2016

Increased the poison damage duration applied by this skill from 4 seconds to 5 seconds.The physical damage per strike has been increased by 150%.

Immobilize on Crippling Shot was added as recently as May 2017. Same with the enhanced flanking effects from the trait.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@"Barry Moonfang.6897" said:I actually quite like the shortbow for PvE, especially after the buffs, so 7,5/10. Works wel with a Soulbeast condi build.For PvP it isn't as good as flanking is pretty hard.

What buffs are we talking about? The small % of power increase in a wannabe condi weapon?

Personally, i can't believe why aren't they properly buffing or reworking the weapon. they did that to LB, a weapon everyone laughed at, and now everyone uses. I don't know what is anet doing, they feel completely out of it. Or maybe they aren't buffing it before its "meta" in pve lol thing is, its certainly not SB that is dealing any damage worth while in the meta build. SB is just an auto attack spam until axe/torch is off of CD.

If there was a definition of mediocrity, SB would be it. 4/10 for pvp. 5.5/10 pve. Garbage since 2012 when they nerfed its range (but its not like its old range would've been any good in the current pvp meta. It'd be as kitten as its currently is).

This weapon needs a complete rework. Not a 11% power increase on an auto attack that deals 7 damage to begin with, Anet......................

What buffs? It used to be even worse. Autos didn't bleed unless you flanked. Crippling shot was just that, cripple, before they added immob on flanking. The trait has been buffed. It's a staple of pve group content, it makes no sense to give it a 5/10 in terms of how effective it is. It's not garbage in pve, it's just boring. In pvp it's both boring and garbage.

As for my rating: boring/10. I hate this weapon.

They added immob on crippling shot so long time ago. I thought we were talking about the last SB buff, which was just small percentages to power damage. A useless buff.

No. The power buffs came before the rework to flanking skills. Poison Volley as an example:

October 18, 2016

This skill's cooldown has been reduced to 8 seconds.Its poison effect will last 2 seconds longer when this skill is applied from behind your target.April 19, 2016

Increased the poison damage duration applied by this skill from 4 seconds to 5 seconds.The physical damage per strike has been increased by 150%.

Immobilize on Crippling Shot was added as recently as May 2017. Same with the enhanced flanking effects from the trait.

Interesting. Felt like it was added two plus years ago. But that's what happens to stale weapons.

[Kraitan.8476]

I think the main issue is and always will be this: We can think of a 100 different ways to fix every class/weapon etc. but the balance team probably doesn't have the resources to even maintain an acceptable speed/impact. Look at the balance patches, despite how they were sold to us, they are usually a few months behind vs our ideas and notions

[Nuka Cola.8520]

@Kraitan.8476 said:I think the main issue is and always will be this: We can think of a 100 different ways to fix every class/weapon etc. but the balance team probably doesn't have the resources to even maintain an acceptable speed/impact. Look at the balance patches, despite how they were sold to us, they are usually a few months behind vs our ideas and notions

What is the gem store paying for? They sold the original game for $60. First expansion for $50. Second expansion for $40. Gem store been milking with the microtransactions since 2012, and they don't have any resources to do something THIS important to the game? Where is my OG GW1 Anet? This is laughable.

[Kraitan.8476]

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:

@Kraitan.8476 said:I think the main issue is and always will be this: We can think of a 100 different ways to fix every class/weapon etc. but the balance team probably doesn't have the resources to even maintain an acceptable speed/impact. Look at the balance patches, despite how they were sold to us, they are usually a few months behind vs our ideas and notions

What is the gem store paying for? They sold the original game for $60. First expansion for $50. Second expansion for $40. Gem store been milking with the microtransactions since 2012, and they don't have any resources to do something THIS important to the game? Where is my OG GW1 Anet? This is laughable.

just the way it is..:\

[Neoxaro.3168]

In pvp 3/10In PvE 8/10 it's pretty good but pretty boring

[ArthurDent.9538]

What I don't like about shortbow is that it is just really boring. Skills 1, 2, 4, and 5 are basically all the same animation/cast time/ feel with slightly different effects. Can't complain about damage as it is the second highest damage ranged weapon in the game assuming flanking with a condi build it only falls behind staff ele.

[anduriell.6280]

range, the lacklustre range, that should go first.

A single target weapon should be able to reach 1500 in the ranger.

Quick shot should be a leap of 600 plus apply superspeed if it hits.

Apply the flanking effects to all angles.

4 should apply torment also and #5 confusion.

Trait to be reworked to pierce and apply extra effects when flanking. I would go go giving the ranger boons if the attack hits.

[AEFA.9035]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:What I don't like about shortbow is that it is just really boring. Skills 1, 2, 4, and 5 are basically all the same animation/cast time/ feel with slightly different effects. Can't complain about damage as it is the second highest damage ranged weapon in the game assuming flanking with a condi build it only falls behind staff ele.

WAit what? it is the second highest damage in game? whered you get the data for that?

[AEFA.9035]

@anduriell.6280 said:range, the lacklustre range, that should go first.

A single target weapon should be able to reach 1500 in the ranger.

Quick shot should be a leap of 600 plus apply superspeed if it hits.

Apply the flanking effects to all angles.

4 should apply torment also and #5 confusion.

Trait to be reworked to pierce and apply extra effects when flanking. I would go go giving the ranger boons if the attack hits.

Agree with range increase, I think every profession should have a niche on something. Ranger should probably be wielding a bow should increase range automatically. I still would want Ranger to major bleed/poison condition above all else but with superspeed and other utilities in Shortbow i really think we need those.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@AEFA.9035 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:What I don't like about shortbow is that it is just really boring. Skills 1, 2, 4, and 5 are basically all the same animation/cast time/ feel with slightly different effects. Can't complain about damage as it is the second highest damage ranged weapon in the game assuming flanking with a condi build it only falls behind staff ele.

WAit what? it is the second highest damage in game? whered you get the data for that?

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

The only ranged builds ahead of stance share soulbeast are staff weaver and scepter firebrand, I didn't count firebrand since a huge amount of that damage comes from tome of justice and the scepter it self is only really filler. Stance share soulbeast technically uses both short-bow and dagger/torch, however they have commented that pure short-bow is only slightly less damage.

[Fluffball.8307]

I think the PvE condi build uses traps and flanking, so it's kind of irrelevant for talking about damage on the weapon. For competitive play, SBs damage is non-lethal.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

The only ranged builds ahead of stance share soulbeast are staff weaver and scepter firebrand, I didn't count firebrand since a huge amount of that damage comes from tome of justice and the scepter it self is only really filler. Stance share soulbeast technically uses both short-bow and dagger/torch, however they have commented that pure short-bow is only slightly less damage.

I don't know how the dps is on a dummy that doesn't attack nor moves, but SB would never out dps a weapon such as the mesmers scepter against a real person.