Time to unroot Hundred Blades

[JVJD.4912]

Oh you mean self rooting ,

@DinesenDK.5067 said:Instead of unrooting 100blades, I rather see a cast time reduction, so we can land the damage faster. That will surely help the dps output in spvp. Maybe make it hit 5 targets as well? - It is afterall, a big as sword . :)

i am with this guy ^

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

They could also change the animation so the we need to be rooted because it looks weird otherwise doesn't matter.

[Choppy.4183]

@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:They could also change the animation so the we need to be rooted because it looks weird otherwise doesn't matter.

That'd be more dev time than it's worth, tbh.

The proposal that cast time be reduced and (maybe) number of targets be increased to five is probably the most reasonable, least controversial, and achievable buff proposed so far.

[Turk.5460]

I think the number of targets should be 100. 1 for each blade. :+1:

[mulzi.8273]

Let's put it this way: if people think unrooting HB is a good thing for balance, imagine what the outcry would be if they unroot Meteor shower using this same logic.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

@mulzi.8273 said:Let's put it this way: if people think unrooting HB is a good thing for balance, imagine what the outcry would be if they unroot Meteor shower using this same logic.

HB currently hits 3 people, allot of warriors are wanting to hit 5, Meteor Shower can hit 72.MS= 24 impacts 3 targets each = 72 instances of damageHB current = 9 hits 3 targets each = 27 instances of damageHB wanting 5 targets = 9 hits 5 targets each = 45 instances of damage

MS has longer cast time, longer recharge, hits randomly.HB has lower target cap, smaller range/AOE, you're stuck in mele range which can be bad (talking wvw/pvp here), people can take 2 steps back and not be hit.

[Grok Krog.9581]

@mulzi.8273 said:Let's put it this way: if people think unrooting HB is a good thing for balance, imagine what the outcry would be if they unroot Meteor shower using this same logic.

Whirling Axe does the same damage as hundred blades, has a bigger area of effect, and makes you move fasters. Why would letting you move while using hundred blades be so bad?

[Turk.5460]

@Grok Krog.9581 said:

@mulzi.8273 said:Let's put it this way: if people think unrooting HB is a good thing for balance, imagine what the outcry would be if they unroot Meteor shower using this same logic.

Whirling Axe does the same damage as hundred blades, has a bigger area of effect, and makes you move fasters. Why would letting you move while using hundred blades be so bad?

I'm on the fence for this whole subject whether it should be unrooted or increased speed/target cap (definitely not both). But just to give you some more thought for your comparison: Hundred Blades can get insane synergy from MMR. Whirling Axe synergy only comes in the form of more adrenaline, which we're not really starved for anywho.

[Oglaf.1074]

@mulzi.8273 said:Let's put it this way: if people think unrooting HB is a good thing for balance, imagine what the outcry would be if they unroot Meteor shower using this same logic.

Apples and oranges.

100Bs is already an extremely cra- limited ability outside of the self-root. The fact that it is melee, just to mention one.

[Nova.4608]

@"Turk.5460" said:

I'm on the fence for this whole subject whether it should be unrooted or increased speed/target cap (definitely not both). But just to give you some more thought for your comparison: Hundred Blades can get insane synergy from MMR. Whirling Axe synergy only comes in the form of more adrenaline, which we're not really starved for anywho.

There is synergy with 100B and MMR after the nerf is nowhere near "insane". We're talking about 8 hits in a 3.5s channel.

Whirlwing axe is more damaging than 100B, and generally double axe is better than GS in terms of damage but lacks GS mobility. These forums are still in denial and still think GS Warriors/Spellbreakers to be unstoppable juggernauts destroying everything that moves while not having any counter.

Meanwhile, while we're discussing if unrooting 100B is op or not, abominations like Scourge or Firebrand are considered balanced by most.

100B has to be unrooted but slowed. You can't setup it anymore.

[Turk.5460]

@Nova.4608 said:

@"Turk.5460" said:

I'm on the fence for this whole subject whether it should be unrooted or increased speed/target cap (definitely not both). But just to give you some more thought for your comparison: Hundred Blades can get insane synergy from MMR. Whirling Axe synergy only comes in the form of more adrenaline, which we're not really starved for anywho.

There is synergy with 100B and MMR after the nerf is nowhere near "insane". We're talking about 8 hits in a 3.5s channel.

Whirlwing axe is more damaging than 100B, and generally double axe is better than GS in terms of damage but lacks GS mobility. These forums are still in denial and still think GS Warriors/Spellbreakers to be unstoppable juggernauts destroying everything that moves while not having any counter.

Meanwhile, while we're discussing if unrooting 100B is op or not, abominations like Scourge or Firebrand are considered balanced by most.

100B has to be unrooted but slowed. You can't setup it anymore.

8x3=24 and both Forceful GS and MMR have no icd.

That's pretty insane.

[killahmayne.9518]

@Grok Krog.9581 said:

@mulzi.8273 said:Let's put it this way: if people think unrooting HB is a good thing for balance, imagine what the outcry would be if they unroot Meteor shower using this same logic.

Whirling Axe does the same damage as hundred blades, has a bigger area of effect, and makes you move fasters. Why would letting you move while using hundred blades be so bad?

Because you are using very linear thinking and comparing the both in a vacuum. Balancing requires considering things in context.

Gs already is has a versatile kit. Good burst, mobility, ranged soft cc and cleaving ability. Not to mention it can be enhanced with a very good viable trait.

All that axe oh goes for it is a skill that cleaves targets. That is literally the only reason you take it. So why make it further obsolete by designing 100b to be essentially the same skill?

Not to mention the tradeoff there is not being able to use shield in most cases.

A better option is to explore increasing the amount of targets, range, and perhaps shaving the cast time to 3 seconds. I dont necessarily disagree with unrooting it but not for your reasoning and i believe there are better ways to deal with it.

[Nova.4608]

@Turk.5460 said:8x3=24 and both Forceful GS and MMR have no icd.

That's pretty insane.

it was nerfed December 12 to 2, so its only 16 endurance. A roll requires 50 endurance.

As i've stated before, it's a good synergy, but nowhere near being insane.

Besides, 100B doesn't have 100% crit chance, so the GS mastery talent doesn't proc each hit and this means less endurance gain

[Grok Krog.9581]

@killahmayne.9518 said:

@Grok Krog.9581 said:

@mulzi.8273 said:Let's put it this way: if people think unrooting HB is a good thing for balance, imagine what the outcry would be if they unroot Meteor shower using this same logic.

Whirling Axe does the same damage as hundred blades, has a bigger area of effect, and makes you move fasters. Why would letting you move while using hundred blades be so bad?

Because you are using very linear thinking and comparing the both in a vacuum. Balancing requires considering things in context.

Gs already is has a versatile kit. Good burst, mobility, ranged soft cc and cleaving ability. Not to mention it can be enhanced with a very good viable trait.

All that axe oh goes for it is a skill that cleaves targets. That is literally the only reason you take it. So why make it further obsolete by designing 100b to be essentially the same skill?

Not to mention the tradeoff there is not being able to use shield in most cases.

A better option is to explore increasing the amount of targets, range, and perhaps shaving the cast time to 3 seconds. I dont necessarily disagree with unrooting it but not for your reasoning and i believe there are better ways to deal with it.

I don't think you should consider shields an issue since you can't use a shield with off-hand axe. Greatsword's kit is nice but neither weapon does enough damage to be considered top DPS. As for PvP I still don't believe the mobility would be an issue, considering a dodge roll backwards would put you out of range I believe and since they would be moving the same speed as you, they would not be able to catch up. If you want, you could take the PvP equation out, and change it to be mobile in PvE only

[DeadlySynz.3471]

So to add to the warrior's repertoire of running in and out of combat invulernable, you want to add mobility to one of the most damaging skills in the game? Ya no.. Think about it on a practical level on smaller scale like PvP, you find someone you want to kill, you run in, wear them down (because warrior has high sustained defense), until they use their dodges, tap both invulernabilities, then hundred blades... no counter, zip, zilch, zero. Where is the balance in that?

Cut the damage in half of hundred blades then maybe you'll have a case. Or, put hundred blades and either of the invulnerabilities on the same cool down, aka using either of them will put hundred blades on cool down, or using hundred blades puts the others on cool down.

[Choppy.4183]

@"DeadlySynz.3471" said:So to add to the warrior's repertoire of running in and out of combat invulernable, you want to add mobility to one of the most damaging skills in the game? Ya no..

If you look at the base damage on the wiki, it only works out to about 660 damage per second of cast time. Even just comparing it to auto attacks across the game, it's not actually that much damage. 100b is a bit deceptive because of how it totals up the damage from all the hits into a single big number, giving the impression that it's a big hitter. It's pretty mediocre though, even without considering the self root. I've literally had people rez their friends through it in wvw.

I'm also curious about your notion of warriors "tapping both invulnerabilities" to wear down opponents and leave them with no counters to a mobile 100b. Do you mean the 4s of Endure Pain (60s cd) for direct damage and 5s of Berserker Stance (30s cd) for condis? Surely you know how to counter that, right?

And, for the record (though I've said it elsewhere), I've not advocated for unrooting 100b, or even necessarily buffing gs. I don't think it's an absurd proposition though.

[Loading.4503]

You guys need a ask for something more reasonable, like if you land all hits you get all boons for 10 seconds, cause that really only happens once every 300 or so hundred blades

[TheBravery.9615]

@Loading.4503 said:You guys need a ask for something more reasonable, like if you land all hits you get all boons for 10 seconds, cause that really only happens once every 300 or so hundred blades

by golly, you're right!

the most reasonable suggestion is to make hundred blades politically correct.

Hundred blades needs to hit 100 times on 100 targets

[Lonecap.4105]

Range increase would be ideal. 260 range.

[The Not so Evil Overlord.6]

Oh, because we needed another one of these threads...

First off, everyone saying that it's impossible to set up 100 blades right now... You're wrong. Stop button mashing, and pay attention to what you're doing. You just need to bait out the dodges and stun breaks. Sure, there's some classes who have stunbreaks on a faster cooldown than the CC 100 blades combo. You likely won't ever catch them with it. (Fun fact though... Mirages are not a class on this list. I've done it to them before. You force them to burn their dodges on other things (such as burst skills), and then you can set up the CC combo.) It's not the easiest thing to do, and it takes a fair bit of focus, but it most certainly can be done, even by players of a more average skill level, such as myself. The big thing is to not expect to successfully open up with that. It's something that you'll be able to do towards the end of the fight.

Then, everyone comparing it to whirling axe... I think it's worth pointing out that it has pretty much twice the cooldown as 100 blades. Let that sink in for a bit. Double the cooldown.Next, weapon skills are balanced in the perspective of the entire weapon. The greatsword provides excellent mobility, and solid damage on all of its skills. In order to take offhand axe however, your mainhand options are either the high damage but poor mobility of the axe, the low mobility and low damage of the mace (in exchange for excellent CC and extra survivability), or the good mobility, but low auto-attack damage of the sword (along with the worst burst in the game). So, if you're comparing whirling axe to 100 blades, you need to take into account the fact that to have whirling axe, you've sacrificed either all of your mobility, or you've sacrificed damage.

Now, you do have your second weapon set, but that brings us to another point. Whatever your second weapon set is, it needs to compete with the shield. And quite frankly, given how useful the shield is, that's a bit of a tall order, just due to its extreme utility. It gives a leap CC, along with blocks (and it's very easy to trait). Those are just two really useful things to have, and so whatever you take instead needs to be quite good. And, quite frankly, in general, it's this spot right here that the off-hand axe is actually competing with. It's a question of taking utility and defense, or just raw damage instead.So, yeah. Despite being somewhat similar skills, whirling axe and 100 blades are in radically different weapon sets. When you compare the two skills with each other, you need to look at all of the other skills in that weapon set. Balance comes from the entire weapon set. Not just one skill.

[Choppy.4183]

@"The Not so Evil Overlord.6305" said:First off, everyone saying that it's impossible to set up 100 blades right now... You're wrong. Stop button mashing, and pay attention to what you're doing. You just need to bait out the dodges and stun breaks. Sure, there's some classes who have stunbreaks on a faster cooldown than the CC 100 blades combo. You likely won't ever catch them with it. (Fun fact though... Mirages are not a class on this list. I've done it to them before. You force them to burn their dodges on other things (such as burst skills), and then you can set up the CC combo.) It's not the easiest thing to do, and it takes a fair bit of focus, but it most certainly can be done, even by players of a more average skill level, such as myself. The big thing is to not expect to successfully open up with that. It's something that you'll be able to do towards the end of the fight.

Damage wise though, the payoff isn't much more than standing there and hitting them with the gs auto once you've stunned them. For me, this is why the most reasonable suggestion so far has been to decrease the channel time. For the most part, even in your example, you're looking at getting only a partial channel of the skill and actually paying a penalty if you don't make sure to cancel mid-cast to include Whirlwind Attack and/or Arcing Slice during that stun.

Also, having to bait out a Mirage's dodges and Blink just to land a 100b is a ridiculous cost for such a mediocre skill.

[Nova.4608]

@"The Not so Evil Overlord.6305" said:Oh, because we needed another one of these threads...

First off, everyone saying that it's impossible to set up 100 blades right now... You're wrong. Stop button mashing, and pay attention to what you're doing. You just need to bait out the dodges and stun breaks. Sure, there's some classes who have stunbreaks on a faster cooldown than the CC 100 blades combo. You likely won't ever catch them with it. (Fun fact though... Mirages are not a class on this list. I've done it to them before. You force them to burn their dodges on other things (such as burst skills), and then you can set up the CC combo.) It's not the easiest thing to do, and it takes a fair bit of focus, but it most certainly can be done, even by players of a more average skill level, such as myself. The big thing is to not expect to successfully open up with that. It's something that you'll be able to do towards the end of the fight.

You're just looking at things on paper and in a 1v1 perspective. Everything sounds easily doable on paper, but putting that in action? that's entirely different.

You can bait people into a 100B, it's true, except that good players do not get baited. You have to force them into it, and that's much much harder to do. The amount of stunbreaks, immunities, passive immunities, mobility skills that break stuns/can be used while stunned (Like Shadowstep) makes landing a 100B against a good opponent impossible at least 95% of the time. And that's not counting that the opponent has a team too.

Even if you manage to land it you get rewarded by mediocre damage at best. Meanwhile, while you were wasting so much resources and effort to land a skill to get such mediocre results, no other class has to go through all that amount of setup to land their damage skills.

The skill has to be either unrooted or reworked, buffing it is a risky move, those types of skills are either broken or trash tier most of the time.

[The Not so Evil Overlord.6]

@Choppy.4183 said:

Damage wise though, the payoff isn't much more than standing there and hitting them with the gs auto once you've stunned them. For me, this is why the most reasonable suggestion so far has been to decrease the channel time. For the most part, even in your example, you're looking at getting only a partial channel of the skill and actually paying a penalty if you don't make sure to cancel mid-cast to include Whirlwind Attack and/or Arcing Slice during that stun.

Also, having to bait out a Mirage's dodges and Blink just to land a 100b is a ridiculous cost for such a mediocre skill.

True, it's not the strongest payoff for needing to set it up. Mediocre is likely a decent way to describe it. It likely won't suddenly win the fight, but landing that combo definitely still makes a noticeable difference.

And landing it on a Mirage isn't something I've done very often. The main point of that portion of my post was to refute the people who were saying that it was impossible to land the combo now. I gave Mirage as the extreme example of how it is possible.

I would agree, the most reasonable suggestion is to reduce its cast time. In general though, I think that the Greatsword is a strong enough weapon that it doesn't really need the buff.

@"Nova.4608" said:

You're just looking at things on paper and in a 1v1 perspective. Everything sounds easily doable on paper, but putting that in action? that's entirely different.

You can bait people into a 100B, it's true, except that good players do not get baited. You have to force them into it, and that's much much harder to do. The amount of stunbreaks, immunities, passive immunities, mobility skills that break stuns/can be used while stunned (Like Shadowstep) makes landing a 100B against a good opponent impossible at least 95% of the time. And that's not counting that the opponent has a team too.

Even if you manage to land it you get rewarded by mediocre damage at best. Meanwhile, while you were wasting so much resources and effort to land a skill to get such >mediocre results, no other class has to go through all that amount of setup to land their damage skills.

The skill has to be either unrooted or reworked, buffing it is a risky move, those types of skills are either broken or trash tier most of the time.

No, I'm looking at things pretty much entirely from personal experience. Not very much paper. I am looking at it from a 1v1 perspective, but that's because that's where using an effective 100 blades is the hardest.In even numbered group combat, people can't pay as much attention to individuals, which makes it much easier to set up combos like that. Also, you get friendly CC and boonstrip to help make it so you really don't need to do as much to set things up. Sure, if you're the target of the enemy team then you won't try it, but that's because you're likely busy trying to kite the focus of the entire enemy team.If you're looking only at outnumbered combat, then that's a horrible rubric for how good a skill is. Because if skill levels are equal, you should never win 1v2. So, then you'll most likely just use it when you get an opponent downed, and an enemy is trying to rez. There will be exceptions of course, but those are exceptions.

And yes. The better the player, the less likely you are to be able to bait them, and you will be working on chipping away their defenses. But here's the thing... For most classes, those defenses are on longer cooldowns than at least some of your primary set up skills. It's harder to chip away at their defenses, but steady pressure will wear them down. That's where player skill comes in, at trying to force them to need to burn their cooldowns. Which is a rather important part of any fight.

Also, your assumption that I'm wasting resources and effort to try to land 100 blades... I'm not. My primary goal isn't to try to land that combo. That combo is a tool that I keep in mind. If I get the chance to use it, I'm going to use it. The only "resources and effort" I'm wasting, is after I've burned a few of my opponent's cooldowns, I'm more likely to hold onto shield bash, until I'm able to swap weapons again. You know, to make it so the combo is possible. But I'm not so married to the combo that I'm not willing to do something else instead. That's not wasting effort or resources. It's called playing strategically, knowing your options, and keeping them open.

[Choppy.4183]

@"The Not so Evil Overlord.6305" said:I would agree, the most reasonable suggestion is to reduce its cast time. In general though, I think that the Greatsword is a strong enough weapon that it doesn't really need the buff.

Yeah, I get that, but a skill with a cd should be stronger than the auto.

The reason I like the shortened cast time suggestion (not my idea) is because it boosts the dps and deals with the issue some people want to solve by unrooting (because it would be more difficult for people to walk out of in time). It would also be easy for Anet to implement.