cooldown on weapon swap

[Tabootrinket.2631]

Is there a reason why we have a cooldown on our weapon swap ? I mean, our initiative pool remains the same so I have no idea how getting rid of the weapon swap cooldown would make the thief unbalanced.

edit : urrrrh this should've been in the thief subsection. Fail (can I even delete the thread ? I didn't even know we could post directly in the profession section -_- )

[Oglaf.1074]

Because otherwise you could equip the "Condi cleanse on weapon swap"-Sigil and literally become immune to Conditions?

[BobbyT.7192]

@"Oglaf.1074" said:Because otherwise you could equip the "Condi cleanse on weapon swap"-Sigil and literally become immune to Conditions?

Those types of sigils have a 9 sec CD

[Wentworth.6901]

There are some skills you could really abuse without weapon swap. An example I can think of is D/P and P/D, the 3 skill is either a shadowstep to or away from opponent. You could just constantly switch between those 2 skills to harass your opponent.

[Tabootrinket.2631]

@Wentworth.6901 said:There are some skills you could really abuse without weapon swap. An example I can think of is D/P and P/D, the 3 skill is either a shadowstep to or away from opponent. You could just constantly switch between those 2 skills to harass your opponent.

We can't constantly do that, because the point is, our initiative pool remains the same no matter the weapon. We could just press the skill number 3 like 3 times max and then we'd get depleted of initiative. Basically engaging, then disengaging, then re-engaging. We already can engage and disengage at will with the system as is. And the last thing you think about when you're about to get out of initiative is to port in the middle of punishment land

[Swagg.9236]

Reduce weapon swap CD from 10s to 1s on all classes. Give weapon swap a 1s cast time. Bam.

[Edds.7681]

might be a bit stupid if a shortbow thief could just weapon swap to shortbow 5 and go back to rifle/pistols. plus you could just easily swap to a tanky stat weapon set before getting hit.

[Tabootrinket.2631]

@Edds.7681 said:might be a bit stupid if a shortbow thief could just weapon swap to shortbow 5 and go back to rifle/pistols. plus you could just easily swap to a tanky stat weapon set before getting hit.

Yeah sure we would be able to weapon swap back, but we would still have our cooldown. Let me break it down to you.

If we start at the default 12 initiative points:Infiltrator's Arrow --> 6 initiative points.we have 6 initiative points left.

What's left is to either weapon swap and do whatever skill the other weapon set provides ---> we fall under 6 initiative points which would prevent us to use shortbow 5 again anyway.Or, keep using the weapon and do maybe that one other shortbow 5. No change from what's possible right now.

Why ? Because both weaponsets share THE SAME initiative pool.While other professions can make use of the weapon swap to manage their cooldowns, we get stuck with the same initiative pool no matter which weapon we swap into. That's the whole reason why I consider not even having a cooldown, because the initiative system in itself already prevents ALL the abuse you guys mention.

Having no cooldown would permit the thieves to get truer to their identity which is, being able to react depending on the situation. However the initiative system already prevents abusing the weapon swap for impossible combos.

[Justine.6351]

@Wentworth.6901 said:There are some skills you could really abuse without weapon swap. An example I can think of is D/P and P/D, the 3 skill is either a shadowstep to or away from opponent. You could just constantly switch between those 2 skills to harass your opponent.

Just like a sword theif...

[Ghos.1326]

@Tabootrinket.2631 said:

@Edds.7681 said:might be a bit stupid if a shortbow thief could just weapon swap to shortbow 5 and go back to rifle/pistols. plus you could just easily swap to a tanky stat weapon set before getting hit.

Yeah sure we would be able to weapon swap back, but we would still have our cooldown. Let me break it down to you.

If we start at the default 12 initiative points:Infiltrator's Arrow --> 6 initiative points.we have 6 initiative points left.

What's left is to either weapon swap and do whatever skill the other weapon set provides ---> we fall under 6 initiative points which would prevent us to use shortbow 5 again anyway.Or, keep using the weapon and do maybe that one other shortbow 5. No change from what's possible right now.

Why ? Because both weaponsets share THE SAME initiative pool.While other professions can make use of the weapon swap to manage their cooldowns, we get stuck with the same initiative pool no matter which weapon we swap into. That's the whole reason why I consider not even having a cooldown, because the initiative system in itself already prevents ALL the abuse you guys mention.

Having no cooldown would permit the thieves to get truer to their identity which is, being able to react depending on the situation. However the initiative system already prevents abusing the weapon swap for impossible combos.

I can agree with some points. But I can also agree with others as well. Also take into account traits that do restore initiative either passively, or after some kind of effect.

[Tabootrinket.2631]

Boon/effect/initiative spamming due to traits and sigils using the weapon swap mechanism can be easily prevented by adding an internal cooldown corresponding to the cooldown of a normal weapon swap from the other professions.

[Runiir.6425]

I have no problem with thief getting that...as specialization option. IE you gotta give up something else. Warriors for example can learn to swap faster but they give up on some other better options to do so. Same with Ranger if memory serves.Basically, I am all for the option being there. but you are going to have to take the option over one of your sweeter end of spec options.

[Westenev.5289]

If we use this logic, then why does any weapon need an on-swap cooldown? ;) Other classes have cooldowns, right? (and one class is unlucky enough to have BOTH).

[Tabootrinket.2631]

@Runiir.6425 Well, we already have the common initiative pool for both weapons but if the devs find a way to add a reasonable drawback I'm not against that.

@Westenev.5289 I've explained why numerous times, it would've been cool if you read the content before posting. Other classes have individual cooldown on each weapon skill, so they can use the weapon swap to rotate to another set of refreshed skills, whereas Thieves have a single initiative pool for both weapons. Which means, weapon swapping doesn't provide an extention of the rotation like other classes. The amount of actions is independant of the weapon swapping.

[Boulder.3589]

I kinda agree with OP. The initiative limitation makes zero-cd weapon swopping less powerful on thief. Other professions can use a zero-cd swop to use all CDs on both sets more efficiently and get a dps gain but Thief wouldn't have that benefit due to initiative dictating skill usage. But the increased access to all skills on 2 sets would still be a buff for Thief because of more flexibility in skill choice. But that fits current Thief's play style of "use any weapon skill you want as many times in a row as you want in any order/combination as long as you have initiative to pay for it".

[eldrjth.7384]

The only thing is quick pockets need to change. The other stuff that could possibly be overpowered could have a built in CD similar in length to weapon switch.

I think it wouldnt be a bad idea since it gives the thief an unique play style and increases the complexity of the class. They would be able to readily access 10 different weapon skills as opposed to 5 which would make comboing of powers a factor to consider and also which skills best synergy with each other in each game mode.

I think quick pockets could be changed so that the next skill you use after switching to a new weapon set cost 0 initiative (rather that give 3 ini everytime you switch weapons) and that is on a 10s cooldown timer.

[BobbyT.7192]

@eldrjth.7384 said:The only thing is quick pockets need to change. The other stuff that could possibly be overpowered could have a built in CD similar in length to weapon switch.

I think it wouldnt be a bad idea since it gives the thief an unique play style and increases the complexity of the class. They would be able to readily access 10 different weapon skills as opposed to 5 which would make comboing of powers a factor to consider and also which skills best synergy with each other in each game mode.

I think quick pockets could be changed so that the next skill you use after switching to a new weapon set cost 0 initiative (rather that give 3 ini everytime you switch weapons) and that is on a 10s cooldown timer.

It already has a 8 sec icd

[Cobrakon.3108]

@"Oglaf.1074" said:Because otherwise you could equip the "Condi cleanse on weapon swap"-Sigil and literally become immune to Conditions?

I thought All Sigils have an ICD anyways?

Just looked it up

"Remove 1 condition when you swap to this weapon while in combat.(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)"

Quick Pockets would have to be retuned, among other things im sure.

[BobMctavish.7249]

yes, it's would be pretty cool if there were no timer on swaps.if the build was traited to have no benefits from weapon swap then it should be zero.right now on my mirage build it's annoying when i switch to staff and had to fight a surprise melee attacker which would be better with an axe, and i'm there waiting for that cooldown to happen.maybe the cooldown is like simulating sheathing a sword or getting something from backpack in real life? i dont know what anets original intent was

[Chungo.3169]

Well, then as the main rev I also want the swap legend together with the swap weapon without cd :) since we have power + cd it would be more fair, right? LOL

[TwiceDead.1963]

I do see one potential problem with this when it comes to a particular Deadeye trait, and that is Silent Scope. Essentially you would be able to chain backstabs every 3 seconds merely by kneeling and weapon-swapping as soon as you're stealthed, leading to even more hazardous stealth-abuse that's already plaguing the game.

You could always make Deadeyes forfeit this bonus though... Because I like the idea, quite frankly.

[Daishi.6027]

Because it's supposed to lock you out of your last set, otherwise there are to many OP combos you can use to frequently by switch between the two willy-nilly. This also makes it harder to balance weapons that come to the class because everything would need to be balanced under the impression you can swap to something and activate it at a moments notice.

Thief is already to safe with the amount of doges, and close to long to close instant plays. Plus their access to ini regen or ability to escape or stealth.Giving access to both for the entire bar + regens with no blocker between, means people have to always play around the entire kit instead of obvious weapons which is a part of a visual tell to what to expect.

If Thief didn't have as many safe tools and was designed so that if outlasted by good efficient dogging was enough to shut it down single handily without easy escape, I would agree.

Locking players out of their swapped weapon is a core part of the balance mechanic. Maybe in the future there could be an elite spec that removed it as part of it's kit, but then it'll likely not see the suitability of DD nor the raw damage of DE.

[Eramonster.2718]

@Tabootrinket.2631 said:Is there a reason why we have a cooldown on our weapon swap ? I mean, our initiative pool remains the same so I have no idea how getting rid of the weapon swap cooldown would make the thief unbalanced.

edit : urrrrh this should've been in the thief subsection. Fail (can I even delete the thread ? I didn't even know we could post directly in the profession section -_- )

If there's no reason to, you won't be asking this. :wink:

[BeLZedaR.4790]

That could be a cool idea, but thief is far from needing buffs. It is very far in the needing nerfs category though.If they completely redesign thief like they did mesmer (hopefully not as broken), I could see this being a Thing.

[Kahyos.1437]

Feels too much of a buff honestly. You get a lot of utility and be able to have tools ready at any situation. I think the weapon swap cd is nice, as you have to make each weapon swap count and punishes wrong decisions.