Scourge is too strong

[Vulf.3098]

I don't get why you would complain about Scourge op when Mirage is way worse.

[Crinn.7864]

@vicious.5683 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Well scourge was designed to be a support spec, so maybe just remove all the condies and damage, and buff healing/barrier/whatever else?

how about no?

how about yes?Full Support is the only way you're ever going make a mass AoE spec not break the game.

So, what should we do with eles in pve? Massive AOE DPS, we nerf them too?Ele has absolutely enormous cast times on their damage AoEs in addition to long cooldowns. Eles also don't spew debuffs everywhere

Necro has absolutely no mobility, invulnerabilities, blocks, escapes. So they need damage to stay relevant. Beside, you just need to roll out of the shades to save yourself from all that damage and debuffing effects.

ok....true.and...kinda true

but there should be some form of defense vs conditions. similar to how armor reduces dmg from physical attacks.

right now, the abilities that reduce conditon dmg are so rare. and conditions scourge puts down are applied so fast, that its really hard to cleanse them or defend against them.

maybe the healing power also reduces condition dmg (not like many people use that attribute right now. would make it somewhat valuable)

seriously....bit scary when Scourges are the most common class in WvW....

It's nice to have a place at last. Necromancers have been excluded from any high end PVE content since the beginning.Besides, scourges were nerfed recently, maybe it just need time to people to adapt.

PvP has been in a Scourge meta since September. People have adapted, or rather people realized that the most effective way to handle scourge is to bring your own scourge. There are only a few builds in the game that can 1v1 a scourge, and absolutely no build can counter a Scourge in a teamfight.

Also Scourge has only really been nerfed once which was the October 17th patch that removed pulsing dhuumfire. The November 7th patch actually buffed scourge. The condi rework patch was a wash, given that Scourge lost some burst in place of higher sustain, and the barrier change was a flat buff to scourge's sustain capabilities.

[Silv.9207]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:For the life of me, I cannot understand why players are so headstrong about getting off their current class and getting on one that can easily deal with scourges.

Yes we should all just reroll to 2 classes because of scourge. Rather than you know, having a healthy and diverse meta.

Oh and nevermind that Soulbeast and Deadeye are worthless against everything but scourge which means you won't actually kill the enemy scourge because you'll get counterpressured and rekt by the Scourges teammates. Players have adapted to Scourge, players have discovered the best way to handle a Scourge is to bring your own Scourge, and players have learned that anything other than the 3 builds that can coexist with scourge is no longer worth playing.

Oh and I hope you realize that Scourge is itself a ranged class. Or have you not noticed that Manifest Shade, scepter, and staff are all ranged?

Mmmmm.... do you remember the cele-ele meta? That meta that forced every team to have an ele (or two) or just lose the match, without any kind of possible counter to that build? There was Literally Not a Single Counter to that meta. That meta build was so strong that ANet was forced to make Necros able to kill it because there was not a single class able to kill a skilled ele both in 1v1 or team fight. But ANet forgot to make necros able to fight other classes out of eles. That made necros the only class able to corrupt boons and kill eles and that granted to necros a spot in the meta but at the same time there was so much counters that a necro needed an ele to survive... the class it was made to counter.... But that's ANet logic, we're not here to discuss about that.

We had seriously worst meta OP classes and builds in the past.

The actual necro is seriously insane in team fights if the enemy team is all in the center of the point waiting to get killed. But any decent focus can kill a scourge pretty easy and fast. Only play scourge with firebrand make it able to survive a real fight in the middle against someone that know how to play. But different classes can still burst down a scourge if they want, still if it's under the FB protection.

Also, that post don't say to play Only the things that counter scourge but that if you really hate it there's a lot of classes able to kill it.If you hate so much the Scourges just play what kill them. Basicly every ranged dps class can kill a scourge and some can burst it really fast.The reason is that the scourge is mainly a ranged class but also it's main damage is chained to one (or more) Ground Target Immobile Shade that can't move and anyone able to hit the necro from afar and able to move enough to go out of the Shade range can easly evade 70% of the scourge damage. A melee build would never be able to do that because the scourge can stay near the shade and the Fx effects also hits in the range from the necro itself, making it a perfect class to counter melee builds. But a ranged build can.Ranger, Thief, Revenant, Mesmer, they all can kill any scourge in 1v1 and in different situations also burst it down during a team fight. Maybe a revenant lack a bit the ability to fight at the same level of other classes in terms of fight enemies that aren't a scourge, but all the others are really strong also against other classes and there's different builds they can use and pretty much every build they use can kill a scourge if they have a ranged weapon.

The scourge is strong but can be hard countered and heavly bursted down by a large amount of classes. That make it balanced and totally not OP if you move out of gold rank.

At last, nerf the damage of the scourge will remove the only thing it have. No mobility, no survavibility (not a decent one, at last), no support. Reduce it's damage without grant it anything will only push it out of the meta and nothing more.A large amount of players hate the scourge but the point here is not make it weak but make it counterable by other classes. For example reducing a little it's AoE (maybe in sPvP only) and reduce the Cripple spam. That will make scourge lesser OP and more of the other classes able to fight it.

[Shadowcat.2680]

Ranged is the hard counter to scourge, but at the same time, scourge is the hard counter to any melee. Scourge and the popularity of scourge (it's rather easy to play and kill on one) makes melee unplayable in WvW. I don't know how scourge is in other modes, but I imagine it's even worse in sPvP where there's less room to maneuver.

[vicious.5683]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Well scourge was designed to be a support spec, so maybe just remove all the condies and damage, and buff healing/barrier/whatever else?

how about no?

how about yes?Full Support is the only way you're ever going make a mass AoE spec not break the game.

So, what should we do with eles in pve? Massive AOE DPS, we nerf them too?Ele has absolutely enormous cast times on their damage AoEs in addition to long cooldowns. Eles also don't spew debuffs everywhere

Necro has absolutely no mobility, invulnerabilities, blocks, escapes. So they need damage to stay relevant. Beside, you just need to roll out of the shades to save yourself from all that damage and debuffing effects.

ok....true.and...kinda true

but there should be some form of defense vs conditions. similar to how armor reduces dmg from physical attacks.

right now, the abilities that reduce conditon dmg are so rare. and conditions scourge puts down are applied so fast, that its really hard to cleanse them or defend against them.

maybe the healing power also reduces condition dmg (not like many people use that attribute right now. would make it somewhat valuable)

seriously....bit scary when Scourges are the most common class in WvW....

It's nice to have a place at last. Necromancers have been excluded from any high end PVE content since the beginning.Besides, scourges were nerfed recently, maybe it just need time to people to adapt.

PvP has been in a Scourge meta since September. People

have

adapted, or rather people realized that the most effective way to handle scourge is to bring your own scourge. There are only a few builds in the game that can 1v1 a scourge, and absolutely no build can counter a Scourge in a teamfight.

Also Scourge has only really been nerfed once which was the October 17th patch that removed pulsing dhuumfire. The November 7th patch actually buffed scourge. The condi rework patch was a wash, given that Scourge lost some burst in place of higher sustain, and the barrier change was a flat buff to scourge's sustain capabilities.

Several ranged build can deal with scourge 1v1. And the key word here is ranged because if you stay out of shades range, scourge is screwed.

[vicious.5683]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:For the life of me, I cannot understand why players are so headstrong about getting off their current class and getting on one that can easily deal with scourges.

Yes we should all just reroll to 2 classes because of scourge. Rather than you know, having a healthy and diverse meta.

you mean like Raids? Where there is absolutely no diversity? Where reapers are excluded, just like necromancers were excluded from dungeons?

Necromancers deserve to be finally meta. And fuck diversity.

[Crinn.7864]

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Well scourge was designed to be a support spec, so maybe just remove all the condies and damage, and buff healing/barrier/whatever else?

how about no?

how about yes?Full Support is the only way you're ever going make a mass AoE spec not break the game.

So, what should we do with eles in pve? Massive AOE DPS, we nerf them too?Ele has absolutely enormous cast times on their damage AoEs in addition to long cooldowns. Eles also don't spew debuffs everywhere

Necro has absolutely no mobility, invulnerabilities, blocks, escapes. So they need damage to stay relevant. Beside, you just need to roll out of the shades to save yourself from all that damage and debuffing effects.

ok....true.and...kinda true

but there should be some form of defense vs conditions. similar to how armor reduces dmg from physical attacks.

right now, the abilities that reduce conditon dmg are so rare. and conditions scourge puts down are applied so fast, that its really hard to cleanse them or defend against them.

maybe the healing power also reduces condition dmg (not like many people use that attribute right now. would make it somewhat valuable)

seriously....bit scary when Scourges are the most common class in WvW....

It's nice to have a place at last. Necromancers have been excluded from any high end PVE content since the beginning.Besides, scourges were nerfed recently, maybe it just need time to people to adapt.

PvP has been in a Scourge meta since September. People

have

adapted, or rather people realized that the most effective way to handle scourge is to bring your own scourge. There are only a few builds in the game that can 1v1 a scourge, and absolutely no build can counter a Scourge in a teamfight.

Also Scourge has only really been nerfed once which was the October 17th patch that removed pulsing dhuumfire. The November 7th patch actually buffed scourge. The condi rework patch was a wash, given that Scourge lost some burst in place of higher sustain, and the barrier change was a flat buff to scourge's sustain capabilities.

Several ranged build can deal with scourge 1v1. And the key word here is ranged because if you stay out of shades range, scourge is screwed.

And you know how often scourge does 1v1s?

Never

It's a teamfight class, and nothing is even a quarter as effective and efficient as Scourge in a teamfight.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@"MyPuppy.8970" said:Well scourge was designed to be a support spec, so maybe just remove all the condies and damage, and buff healing/barrier/whatever else?

how about no?

how about yes?Full Support is the only way you're ever going make a mass AoE spec not break the game.

So, what should we do with eles in pve? Massive AOE DPS, we nerf them too?Ele has absolutely enormous cast times on their damage AoEs in addition to long cooldowns. Eles also don't spew debuffs everywhere

Necro has absolutely no mobility, invulnerabilities, blocks, escapes. So they need damage to stay relevant. Beside, you just need to roll out of the shades to save yourself from all that damage and debuffing effects.

ok....true.and...kinda true

but there should be some form of defense vs conditions. similar to how armor reduces dmg from physical attacks.

right now, the abilities that reduce conditon dmg are so rare. and conditions scourge puts down are applied so fast, that its really hard to cleanse them or defend against them.

maybe the healing power also reduces condition dmg (not like many people use that attribute right now. would make it somewhat valuable)

seriously....bit scary when Scourges are the most common class in WvW....

It's nice to have a place at last. Necromancers have been excluded from any high end PVE content since the beginning.Besides, scourges were nerfed recently, maybe it just need time to people to adapt.

PvP has been in a Scourge meta since September. People

have

adapted, or rather people realized that the most effective way to handle scourge is to bring your own scourge. There are only a few builds in the game that can 1v1 a scourge, and absolutely no build can counter a Scourge in a teamfight.

Also Scourge has only really been nerfed once which was the October 17th patch that removed pulsing dhuumfire. The November 7th patch actually buffed scourge. The condi rework patch was a wash, given that Scourge lost some burst in place of higher sustain, and the barrier change was a flat buff to scourge's sustain capabilities.

Several ranged build can deal with scourge 1v1. And the key word here is ranged because if you stay out of shades range, scourge is screwed.

And you know how often scourge does 1v1s?

Never

It's a teamfight class, and nothing is even a quarter as effective and efficient as Scourge in a teamfight.

A number of ranged builds can still burst down a Scourge even through the protection of a Firebrand.

If Scourges are actually that OP and meta-defining, you would think these hard counters would break into the meta. You complain and complain that "Double Scourge is unbeatable" but the builds that counter them"can't beat anything else."

While the second part isn't true in the slightest, let's pretend it is. You sacrifice one team slot to hard counter two of theirs. Even if your Scourge Counter build loses to everything else on their team, you've effectively set up a 4v3 scenario.

So, since people aren't doing this, it sounds more like Scourges aren't actually as big a problem as you make them out to be.

[Vag.5682]

https://youtu.be/qor0VMpB0zA?t=122

um yea pretty strong legendary firebrand - necro die in couple of seconds vs Mesmer

is anyone above silver who keeps qq about scourge , just a thought

[arenta.2953]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@"MyPuppy.8970" said:Well scourge was designed to be a support spec, so maybe just remove all the condies and damage, and buff healing/barrier/whatever else?

how about no?

how about yes?Full Support is the only way you're ever going make a mass AoE spec not break the game.

So, what should we do with eles in pve? Massive AOE DPS, we nerf them too?Ele has absolutely enormous cast times on their damage AoEs in addition to long cooldowns. Eles also don't spew debuffs everywhere

Necro has absolutely no mobility, invulnerabilities, blocks, escapes. So they need damage to stay relevant. Beside, you just need to roll out of the shades to save yourself from all that damage and debuffing effects.

ok....true.and...kinda true

but there should be some form of defense vs conditions. similar to how armor reduces dmg from physical attacks.

right now, the abilities that reduce conditon dmg are so rare. and conditions scourge puts down are applied so fast, that its really hard to cleanse them or defend against them.

maybe the healing power also reduces condition dmg (not like many people use that attribute right now. would make it somewhat valuable)

seriously....bit scary when Scourges are the most common class in WvW....

It's nice to have a place at last. Necromancers have been excluded from any high end PVE content since the beginning.Besides, scourges were nerfed recently, maybe it just need time to people to adapt.

PvP has been in a Scourge meta since September. People

have

adapted, or rather people realized that the most effective way to handle scourge is to bring your own scourge. There are only a few builds in the game that can 1v1 a scourge, and absolutely no build can counter a Scourge in a teamfight.

Also Scourge has only really been nerfed once which was the October 17th patch that removed pulsing dhuumfire. The November 7th patch actually buffed scourge. The condi rework patch was a wash, given that Scourge lost some burst in place of higher sustain, and the barrier change was a flat buff to scourge's sustain capabilities.

Several ranged build can deal with scourge 1v1. And the key word here is ranged because if you stay out of shades range, scourge is screwed.

And you know how often scourge does 1v1s?

Never

It's a teamfight class, and nothing is even a quarter as effective and efficient as Scourge in a teamfight.

A number of ranged builds can still burst down a Scourge even through the protection of a Firebrand.

If Scourges are actually that OP and meta-defining, you would think these hard counters would break into the meta. You complain and complain that "Double Scourge is unbeatable" but the builds that counter them"can't beat anything else."

While the second part isn't true in the slightest, let's pretend it is. You sacrifice one team slot to hard counter two of theirs. Even if your Scourge Counter build loses to everything else on their team, you've effectively set up a 4v3 scenario.

So, since people aren't doing this, it sounds more like Scourges aren't actually as big a problem as you make them out to be.

have u seen WvW?scourges are the most used class due to how condition dmg ignores armor and applies so fast

[ShiroAero.8096]

I played both from scourge perspective and ranger perspective and whenever I fight a ranged class I often times lose because i can't do anything about it. The class is slow and the only viable weapon has a range of 900. I guess you could counter with teleport skill from scrouge. but you can't rely on 1 utility skill to win a fight.As a ranger i felt no problem shooting down Scourge from afar. Having a ranged class in your team focus on scourge always make it so much easier. And in dubble scourge figts I havent seen any significant problem.

[intox.6347]

@arenta.2953 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@"MyPuppy.8970" said:Well scourge was designed to be a support spec, so maybe just remove all the condies and damage, and buff healing/barrier/whatever else?

how about no?

how about yes?Full Support is the only way you're ever going make a mass AoE spec not break the game.

So, what should we do with eles in pve? Massive AOE DPS, we nerf them too?Ele has absolutely enormous cast times on their damage AoEs in addition to long cooldowns. Eles also don't spew debuffs everywhere

Necro has absolutely no mobility, invulnerabilities, blocks, escapes. So they need damage to stay relevant. Beside, you just need to roll out of the shades to save yourself from all that damage and debuffing effects.

ok....true.and...kinda true

but there should be some form of defense vs conditions. similar to how armor reduces dmg from physical attacks.

right now, the abilities that reduce conditon dmg are so rare. and conditions scourge puts down are applied so fast, that its really hard to cleanse them or defend against them.

maybe the healing power also reduces condition dmg (not like many people use that attribute right now. would make it somewhat valuable)

seriously....bit scary when Scourges are the most common class in WvW....

It's nice to have a place at last. Necromancers have been excluded from any high end PVE content since the beginning.Besides, scourges were nerfed recently, maybe it just need time to people to adapt.

PvP has been in a Scourge meta since September. People

have

adapted, or rather people realized that the most effective way to handle scourge is to bring your own scourge. There are only a few builds in the game that can 1v1 a scourge, and absolutely no build can counter a Scourge in a teamfight.

Also Scourge has only really been nerfed once which was the October 17th patch that removed pulsing dhuumfire. The November 7th patch actually buffed scourge. The condi rework patch was a wash, given that Scourge lost some burst in place of higher sustain, and the barrier change was a flat buff to scourge's sustain capabilities.

Several ranged build can deal with scourge 1v1. And the key word here is ranged because if you stay out of shades range, scourge is screwed.

And you know how often scourge does 1v1s?

Never

It's a teamfight class, and nothing is even a quarter as effective and efficient as Scourge in a teamfight.

A number of ranged builds can still burst down a Scourge even through the protection of a Firebrand.

If Scourges are actually that OP and meta-defining, you would think these hard counters would break into the meta. You complain and complain that "Double Scourge is unbeatable" but the builds that counter them"can't beat anything else."

While the second part isn't true in the slightest, let's pretend it is. You sacrifice one team slot to hard counter two of theirs. Even if your Scourge Counter build loses to everything else on their team, you've effectively set up a 4v3 scenario.

So, since people aren't doing this, it sounds more like Scourges aren't actually as big a problem as you make them out to be.

have u seen WvW?scourges are the most used class due to how condition dmg ignores armor and applies so fast

Nah, before scourge there was well power reaper, or condi (cele) reaper.

Scourge is just easy to spam aoe to tag ppl, and stay alive. Coz of meta is also supported take scourge into squads... so ppl who played holo, thief, ranger just pick scourge... 5 min to learn spam everything and you are ready to go.Once you met strong group with lot of FB and bubbles, scourges spread out, dont do any dmg and die. Its not that effective, but effective for low effort given into gameplay by scourge.

[Svarty.8019]

It doesn't take a genius to see that nerfing Reaper doesn't nerf Scourge ...

[Anchoku.8142]

The only reason Necromancer and Scourge are good in WvW is AoE. Catch either alone and they are not nearly as threatening.

The problem is simple math. Stack a bunch of condi AoE builds that can tag multiple players with each AoE and of course you will get a zone of death.

Necro and Scourge are like mobile arrow carts: individual arrows are minor annoyances but five or six mobile arrow carts travelling with a zerg and covering the same skirmish front would be highly lethal. Similarly, staff Ele are like mobile, grenade launchers, and LB Ranger are like mobile ballista. Then, there are professions with AoE blocks and reflects.

With two clashing zergs, the advantage will go to the one with the most AoE offense and defense.

Honestly, I have seen the same complaints about Necro in WvW every year. Players think their build should perform much better against a gaggle of zerg support Necro because those same Necro builds are easy to handle when alone.

[Zero.3871]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Well scourge was designed to be a support spec, so maybe just remove all the condies and damage, and buff healing/barrier/whatever else?

how about no?

how about yes?Full Support is the only way you're ever going make a mass AoE spec not break the game.

So, what should we do with eles in pve? Massive AOE DPS, we nerf them too?Ele has absolutely enormous cast times on their damage AoEs in addition to long cooldowns. Eles also don't spew debuffs everywhere

ele maybe dont have debuff, but they cast maaaaaaaany boons. scourge dont have 8 boons permanently on himself like ele...

[mulzi.8273]

If people would adapt and tweak their builds not to generate as many boons, there would be less boons for a scourge to corrupt and less condis/damage the scourge could do. As a scourge, I can annihilate a class like Rev or Ele that has 7-8 boons on them. I corrupt those boons into conditions and they cry fool, scourge puts on too many conditions, blah blah blah. I then bump into a rev/ele/whatever that has 1-2 boons, and I tickle them while they burst me down.

And a scourge defense? The biggest defense are their opponents themselves. I love when I see a warrior/reaper/etc come at me with 25 stacks of might. It usually means they have a auto-might generating trait. Which means one corrupt puts permanent weakness on them, which is less damage against me (when i'm on scourge). My main is a power reaper, and I had this issue, swearing at every scourge i met. I few tweaks of traits, and i am much more competitive against them now. I actually hunt them now on my reaper.

No boons = nothing for a scourge to corrupt = less conditions/damage a scourge can throw out = dead scourge. But people like big numbers, with their big might/regen/prot/stab/etc stacks.

[TwiceDead.1963]

People defend Scourge by saying their hard-counter is ranged attacks. "Just range em!" They say...

Did people just forget about the massive amount of projectile hate in this game? You CAN'T range anything! Not in sPvP and definitely NOT in WvW... There's a reason ranged classes are all-round undesirable for any comp. The exception would be if you're facing stray rallybots in WvW or the sPvP equivalent.

[Fireline.6093]

A Scourge's strength is boon corruption and area of effect. Neither of these are useful while raiding and the raid guide I've been reading quite literally instructs you to change professions, because Necro isn't useful and single target dps is bottom tier.

Perhaps those of you in PvP struggling with Scourge could learn from raid bosses. Have no boons and no nearby allies and Scourges lose all their strengths.

There seems to be a mindset that the more boons you can stack in PvP the better your chances of winning. Without Scourge, there is no risk/reward for boons. With Scourge, boons now become an optional gameplay instead of a requirement.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@"TwiceDead.1963" said:People defend Scourge by saying their hard-counter is ranged attacks. "Just range em!" They say...

Did people just forget about the massive amount of projectile hate in this game? You CAN'T range anything! Not in sPvP and definitely NOT in WvW... There's a reason ranged classes are all-round undesirable for any comp. The exception would be if you're facing stray rallybots in WvW or the sPvP equivalent.

The projectile hate that no Scourge takes? Even the typical support Firebrand doesn't take any aside from Shield and sometimes Protective Reviver, which isn't hard to play around. Even assuming you ran into some random Scourge that was constantly protected from projectiles, Unblockability beats all projectile hate. Soulbeast actually has that with pretty good uptime (4 seconds whenever they enter beast mode, potentially 40% uptime, plus Signet of the Hunt if they take it).

The reason "ranged classes are all-round undesirable" in PvP is because people have this false idea that you cannot fight anywhere that's not in the circle. It's better to kill the enemy before taking the point than trying to contest the point and dying in the fight, but most players just don't understand that.

[Kaiser.9873]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@arenta.2953 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@vicious.5683 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Well scourge was designed to be a support spec, so maybe just remove all the condies and damage, and buff healing/barrier/whatever else?

how about no?

how about yes?Full Support is the only way you're ever going make a mass AoE spec not break the game.

So, what should we do with eles in pve? Massive AOE DPS, we nerf them too?Ele has absolutely enormous cast times on their damage AoEs in addition to long cooldowns. Eles also don't spew debuffs everywhere

Necro has absolutely no mobility, invulnerabilities, blocks, escapes. So they need damage to stay relevant. Beside, you just need to roll out of the shades to save yourself from all that damage and debuffing effects.

ok....true.and...kinda true

but there should be some form of defense vs conditions. similar to how armor reduces dmg from physical attacks.

right now, the abilities that reduce conditon dmg are so rare. and conditions scourge puts down are applied so fast, that its really hard to cleanse them or defend against them.

maybe the healing power also reduces condition dmg (not like many people use that attribute right now. would make it somewhat valuable)

seriously....bit scary when Scourges are the most common class in WvW....

It's nice to have a place at last. Necromancers have been excluded from any high end PVE content since the beginning.Besides, scourges were nerfed recently, maybe it just need time to people to adapt.

PvP has been in a Scourge meta since September. People

have

adapted, or rather people realized that the most effective way to handle scourge is to bring your own scourge. There are only a few builds in the game that can 1v1 a scourge, and absolutely no build can counter a Scourge in a teamfight.

Also Scourge has only really been nerfed once which was the October 17th patch that removed pulsing dhuumfire. The November 7th patch actually buffed scourge. The condi rework patch was a wash, given that Scourge lost some burst in place of higher sustain, and the barrier change was a flat buff to scourge's sustain capabilities.

Several ranged build can deal with scourge 1v1. And the key word here is ranged because if you stay out of shades range, scourge is screwed.

And you know how often scourge does 1v1s?

Never

It's a teamfight class, and nothing is even a quarter as effective and efficient as Scourge in a teamfight.

So Scourge is this OP monster class, BUT, but, BuT, It's relegated to being a teamfight class? Seems if it were soooooooo OP then it would excel in more than just teamfighting.

[nortask.8351]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"TwiceDead.1963" said:People defend Scourge by saying their hard-counter is ranged attacks. "Just range em!" They say...

Did people just forget about the massive amount of projectile hate in this game? You CAN'T range anything! Not in sPvP and definitely NOT in WvW... There's a reason ranged classes are all-round undesirable for any comp. The exception would be if you're facing stray rallybots in WvW or the sPvP equivalent.

The projectile hate that no Scourge takes? Even the typical support Firebrand doesn't take any aside from Shield and sometimes Protective Reviver, which isn't hard to play around. Even assuming you ran into some random Scourge that was constantly protected from projectiles, Unblockability beats all projectile hate. Soulbeast actually has that with pretty good uptime (4 seconds whenever they enter beast mode, potentially 40% uptime, plus Signet of the Hunt if they take it).

The reason "ranged classes are all-round undesirable" in PvP is because people have this false idea that you cannot fight anywhere that's not in the circle. It's better to kill the enemy before taking the point than trying to contest the point and dying in the fight, but most players just don't understand that.

You don't think people have tried PP thief, or LB ranger, or hammer rev, or staff ele, or rifle warr? It's been tried, they just suck. They don't contribute to the game. That's it.

[Sigmoid.7082]

Scourge will get nerfed next balance patch but unless it becomes trash/below trash tier/people can no longer die to it they will say the patch did nothing.

Infact I expect some underused or underpowered things to be buffed and people to just complain that they can't believe they buffed necromancer.

[Nimon.7840]

@nortask.8351 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"TwiceDead.1963" said:People defend Scourge by saying their hard-counter is ranged attacks. "Just range em!" They say...

Did people just forget about the massive amount of projectile hate in this game? You CAN'T range anything! Not in sPvP and definitely NOT in WvW... There's a reason ranged classes are all-round undesirable for any comp. The exception would be if you're facing stray rallybots in WvW or the sPvP equivalent.

The projectile hate that no Scourge takes? Even the typical support Firebrand doesn't take any aside from Shield and sometimes Protective Reviver, which isn't hard to play around. Even assuming you ran into some random Scourge that was constantly protected from projectiles, Unblockability beats all projectile hate. Soulbeast actually has that with pretty good uptime (4 seconds whenever they enter beast mode, potentially 40% uptime, plus Signet of the Hunt if they take it).

The reason "ranged classes are all-round undesirable" in PvP is because people have this false idea that you cannot fight anywhere that's not in the circle. It's better to kill the enemy before taking the point than trying to contest the point and dying in the fight, but most players just don't understand that.

You don't think people have tried PP thief, or LB ranger, or hammer rev, or staff ele, or rifle warr? It's been tried, they just suck. They don't contribute to the game. That's it.

Lol. So you dont have any idea of the game. Any of these will easyly kill a scourge. And even other classes. Only if played correctly yes.

And if someone says, that ranging a scourge doesnt work... the one who says this semms to be a really really bad player. Go back to your farming simulator.

I really love the point " people have this false idea that you cannot fight anywhere that's not in the circle"If there is a scourge you cant handle, go somewhere else. He wont come after you because necro is still immobile af. And if he does. Good for you. Then hes making himself useless. If he doesnt. He cant support his other mates and you can play 5v4. Seems pretty good

[Nimon.7840]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Scourge will get nerfed next balance patch but unless it becomes trash/below trash tier/people can no longer die to it they will say the patch did nothing.

Infact I expect some underused or underpowered things to be buffed and people to just complain that they can't believe they buffed necromancer.

I bet they buff something like dagger mainhand. And everyone will complain: eh another buff for necromancers.

But all these people wont see, that things get maybe buffed, that are never used on necros these days. And the good thing will get nerved hard. But ele or mirage being top dps in pve will be untouched. Seems fair.

But it will be, as it always was. Necro will never be better in something than another class

[Tzozef.9841]

Honestly the nerf to condi damage burst in exchange for increase in duration was a good balance.

What is making scourge too strong right now is the way current barrier works. It's WAY TOO STRONG, mitigates all damage, can't debuff it, and can be used consistently while dishing out condi dmg.