Double pistol PVE thief question.

[Arceno.8214]

Hey, i'm fairly new to thief and i love playing it. But with that said, i can't find any proper P/P thief build that would be good for group farming events in PVE or even maybe for a raid. I know people want "max dps output potential builds" but is there a P/P build that actually has a potential to be included in these two categories?

Thanks for your help.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

There are none. P/P is too weak to be considered for raids where dps really matters. In group farming events you want spammable aoe to hit a lot of mobs, which P/P also lacks. P/P might work for soloing champions since you can remain ranged and kite the champ, but besides that I don't see much use for that weapon-set in PvE.

[Aplier.7829]

The reason why P/P isn't suggested pretty much anywhere is because it has a very low damage potential. This is due to the incredibly weak auto attack, fixed initiative regen, and supplying its own 25 stacks of might meaning that it doesnt have much to gain from group buffs. Also the dps rotation for P/P consists almost entirely of spamming Unload, which makes it so that trying to use initiative on any other skill or your unload getting a single shot blocked/dodged/missed/anything goes wrong significantly cuts into your dps. On top of that, the damage is entirely single target, whereas staff has 3-5 target cleave on everything, D/D gets 2 target cleave on its actually relevant autoattack, and condi can spread its condis around fairly effectively. That being said, P/P can hold the same ~10k self-buffed dps that you'll get out of a staff or dagger power build by virtue of its own might stacks, but in a full buffed situation it only hovers around the 20k range while other thief (and every other dps class's) builds are upwards of 30k. The only real upside that I've encountered for P/P build is that you have complete mobility to dance around within 900 range of your target, and it gets a lot of hits off for signet of malice healing, which can make certain fight mechanics easier to deal with.

But enough about viability, onto the actual P/P builds themselves.
-Full berserker stats of course, since this is a power build. Scholar runes for best dps, the bonus is actually pretty easy to keep up with how much damage we can avoid and how much self healing we have. Force sigil for its flat 5% damage boost and either Sigil of Accuracy if you need the crit or Sigil of Air if you are crit capped.-And by extension that means the standard Critical Strikes traitline is our first choice for the best damage (twin fangs, practiced tolerance, and no quarter for more dps or invigorating precision for more survival).
-Then the main issue for P/P thief is that you have a certain amount of initiative, and once that's gone your dps drops to pretty much shit, so between sustaining initiative and spamming unload, Trickery is the next choice with its effectively permanent 15% damage boost and great initiative regen. Thrill of the crime helps keep up fury for you and your teammates. Next you can pick either Bountiful Theft for some boon strip and sharing vigor as well, or Trickster if you're running any trick utilities. Quick Pockets for your grandmaster trait and running double P/P swapping on CD will be your primary method for maintaining initiative.-For your third traitline, you're pretty much free to pick between Deadly Arts, Daredevil, or Deadeye, as they're all similar in dps, so I'll try to go into some of the benefits of each.Deadly Arts (Mug/Revealed Training/Executioner): Straightforward flat damage bonuses that add nothing extra to the rotation in terms of benefits or complications.Daredevil (Havoc Mastery, Escapists Absolution, Bound): Gives more damage, dodges, and condi cleanse, spaces out your initiative use by adding bounding dodges to the rotation, but requires you to stay in close range to maximise your dps.Deadeye (Iron Sight, Peripheral Vision, Maleficent Seven): Steal changed to deadeye's mark which keeps all of its trickery benefits while also recharging on kill and not forcing you to shadowstep into melee, but Malice is a more unreliable damage buff due to its ramp-up time, provides extra passive defenses via damage reduction and healing along with more personal boon uptime.-I can't say that I personally have a favorite. While I've come to greatly appreciate daredevil's extra dodges, it feels like its also giving up the only relevant thing about P/P by forcing you to stay pretty much within melee range. On the other hand both deadly arts and deadeye maintain that unlimited freedom of positioning (within your 900 units range of course), with deadly arts maintaining simplicity while deadeye adds more defenses and its steal changes. And since we've already agreed that we aren't going for a max dps build (else we wouldnt be using P/P), I'd say just try out all 3 and see which fits your preferences best, without worrying about whether or not one does 5% more or less dps than the others.

For your other skills, Signet of Malice is far and away the best heal because of how often you're hitting via Unload. For utilities,-Assassin's Signet's passive 180 power increase beats just about everything else at dps.
-Signet of Agility's 180 precision is also a strong dps boost if you aren't otherwise crit capped, and with its condi cleanse/endurance restore it has the bonus of being a "get out of jail free" card if you find yourself in a sticky situation, so it doesn't feel like you're entirely giving up a utility slot just for damage.-Roll for Initiative makes a solid third slot, benefiting from trickery's CD reduction if you're specced into it, and helping maintain your initiative over longer fights.-Haste on the other hand is the opposite, letting you frontload a few unloads (pun intended) as an option for burst damage, at the cost of burning through your initiative more quickly.-Fist Flurry if you're specced into daredevil as a strong damaging button that doesn't cost initiative, and you're generally in melee as daredevil anyways. Don't forget to bound beforehand for that extra 10% damage buff!-Shadow Flare basically the same function as Fist Flurry but for deadeye, an extra damage button that you can hit without cutting into your initiative pool. Don't forget to be at max malice stacks before using!-Or any other utility that fits the situation at hand (shadowstep, projectile block, stealth, etc.). You're a thief, be flexible!For elites you have Basilisk Venom for breakbar support, Thieve's Guild for a tiny (emphasis on minuscule) bit of raw dps gain, Dagger Storm as a pseudo defensive for its projectile reflection, stability, superspeed, and in a group of enemies the massive healing from signet of malice.

That pretty much covers everything. For PVE open world, no one really cares what your build is or how fast it kills, and deadeye P/P is actually pretty decent because you don't have to rely on allies for boons and get all of your damage off while maintaining a comfortable distance. In casual raids/fractals it's not horrible for the same reasons just stated, relative independence from your teammates and freedom to move around the fight mechanics. Plus with raid group buffs on you and a 1-button rotation plus some "hit whenever up" CDs, it's pretty impossible to not be hitting for at least 15k dps, which means you'll at least be on par with or even stand out from other noobs in the group. For more organized, serious groups however, you'll still be doing that ~15-20k dps while people who have mastered their classes will be sitting in the 25-35k range, and as a class whose only role is to do damage you should expect to be removed from such groups if you're not pulling your weight.

[NuhDah.9812]

I usually take p/p when going against bosses in open world, but only to supliment my staff, or when fighting against DH in wvw. Being a single target burst oriented weapon it doesn't go well with groups of mobs where you usually want to have something that deals aoe dmg.

[Arceno.8214]

Wow thnx for the explanation i really appreciate it :)

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

P/P is still fun to use in Fractals.

[MrMojoRisin.7364]

I’ve been p/p main for most of my levelling 1-80 and to get my hp’s but moved onto staff daredevil once I had the points.

P/p can kite and kill a lot of things. I did the POF intro up to the city solo on my first go using all low level gear. Like 60-70. Amulet was lvl 45 and rings 56.

Took me like 20 minutes to kite and kill those two fire dogs. It was intense.

I used Roll for initiative to boost up my initiative and continue the Unload stream.

[Tails.9372]

The main problem is that P/P really has nothing to offer besides a low skill floor. You would think that single target DPS is totally amazing given that there are no viable AoE / support skills but wong. Why they removed the ricochet trait is bejond me, it would have worked perfectly as a grandmaster trait for trickery but A-Net works in mysterious ways I guess. P/P will always be the "it's better than nothing but I want something different" kinda choice for groups unless it gets a significant buff (or everything else gets nerfed into oblivion) and with that I mean at least a +75% dmg boost or something like a proper specialisation dedicated to pistols but that's not going to happen.

[TwiceDead.1963]

P/P won't serve you well for AoE encounters, or sustained damage on a single target.

The only thing P/P has going for it is burst, and rule-of-cool. The latter is important, though...

[KeoLegend.5132]

what about secondary weapons? i mean ok once (and IF) you run out of initiative you could swap to a staff or dagger or any other aoe weapon to spamm autos in-between... P/P isnt viable for raids, but, cant they be viable in anything else? i also have this doubt

[Tails.9372]

@KeoLegend.5132 said:what about secondary weapons? i mean ok once (and IF) you run out of initiativeThis:

+ the Quick Pockets trait

@KeoLegend.5132 said:P/P isnt viable for raids, but, cant they be viable in anything else? i also have this doubt

Let's put it this way, P/P is viable for many things but unless you can't play any other class / build it's always going to be undesirable in terms of performance.

[Insane.8291]

Wait, so is Rifle just also considered trash for thieves? (Just came back after a 3 year haitus)

[babazhook.6805]

@KeoLegend.5132 said:what about secondary weapons? i mean ok once (and IF) you run out of initiative you could swap to a staff or dagger or any other aoe weapon to spamm autos in-between... P/P isnt viable for raids, but, cant they be viable in anything else? i also have this doubt

I really think this the best way to make p/p work . You build the might via unload then swap off. As such if using it in such a manner I feel you have to get those might stacks to build as quickly as possible and to last as long as possible so some sort of boon duration for might helpful. In this way you can get the might built before you switch off and at least have some ini left for your second weapons attacks that are not the #1.

IE stack up might as you head in, swap and use the alternate #1 while that might running meaning extra hard hits

[Faaris.8013]

@Insane.8291 said:Wait, so is Rifle just also considered trash for thieves? (Just came back after a 3 year haitus)

I tested rifle deadeye in WvW for maybe a week, and while it's cool, it's very slow and immobile. It's useless when you are with a zerg, and too slow moving in roaming. I switched back to double pistols + staff for capturing camps and land etc. Without unhindered combatant, everybody is running faster than you. Pistols allow me to go range with much more mobility and similar burst. With rifle, I noticed using up lots of initiative and often wasting it because targetting is completely bugged, especially when you kneel.

[babazhook.6805]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Insane.8291 said:Wait, so is Rifle just also considered trash for thieves? (Just came back after a 3 year haitus)

I tested rifle deadeye in WvW for maybe a week, and while it's cool, it's very slow and immobile. It's useless when you are with a zerg, and too slow moving in roaming. I switched back to double pistols + staff for capturing camps and land etc. Without unhindered combatant, everybody is running faster than you. Pistols allow me to go range with much more mobility and similar burst. With rifle, I noticed using up lots of initiative and often wasting it because targetting is completely bugged, especially when you kneel.

Rifle has its place in WvW. There nothing quite like kneeling on a cliff overlooking one of the Gates on your home BL and sniping at the enemy below. P/P just does not have the range for that. P/P can also have issues hitting an enemy on the other side of a chokepoint wherein all of the AOE in between you and the target puts them at a greater rnage then either a pistol or SB can strike.

What people should do when specced DE is at least carry a rifle with them. If you do not like it overall there many instances where you will find a use for it and under the scenarios I outlined it easy enough to swp out one set for another. Also, do not underestimate the NON kneel shots you can make with Rifle. They can be very effective and give better chasedown (longer range) then p/p and Skirmishers shot self applies swiftness even as it cripples a foe.

[kash.9213]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Insane.8291 said:Wait, so is Rifle just also considered trash for thieves? (Just came back after a 3 year haitus)

... it's very slow and immobile. It's useless when you are with a zerg, and too slow moving in roaming....

Rifle isn't slow and it's mobility keeps you just in the right range or topography for zerg or squad play along with being one of the better weapons to create downs in squad play quickly and it's great for roaming or crossing maps if you can get some swiftness going off and on. But if that one week of extensive rifle play did it for you maybe we'll get a better weapon in next expansion.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Insane.8291 said:Wait, so is Rifle just also considered trash for thieves? (Just came back after a 3 year haitus)

I tested rifle deadeye in WvW for maybe a week, and while it's cool, it's very slow and immobile. It's useless when you are with a zerg, and too slow moving in roaming. I switched back to double pistols + staff for capturing camps and land etc. Without unhindered combatant, everybody is running faster than you. Pistols allow me to go range with much more mobility and similar burst. With rifle, I noticed using up lots of initiative and often wasting it because targetting is completely bugged, especially when you kneel.

I have to disagree. The lack of on demand swiftness can suck if you don't have Acro running, but if you do, it's a good in-between for the mobility of SB and the damage off P/P. I like having it for the occasional group fights I find myself in. That 1200/1500 range is VERY useful in some situations along with standing skill 4, especially on a non-SA skirmisher build.

[Faaris.8013]

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Insane.8291 said:Wait, so is Rifle just also considered trash for thieves? (Just came back after a 3 year haitus)

I tested rifle deadeye in WvW for maybe a week, and while it's cool, it's very slow and immobile. It's useless when you are with a zerg, and too slow moving in roaming. I switched back to double pistols + staff for capturing camps and land etc. Without unhindered combatant, everybody is running faster than you. Pistols allow me to go range with much more mobility and similar burst. With rifle, I noticed using up lots of initiative and often wasting it because targetting is completely bugged, especially when you kneel.

I have to disagree. The lack of on demand swiftness can suck if you don't have Acro running, but if you do, it's a good in-between for the mobility of SB and the damage off P/P. I like having it for the occasional group fights I find myself in. That 1200/1500 range is VERY useful in some situations along with standing skill 4, especially on a non-SA skirmisher build.

But you sacrifice a lot of damage and survivability because if you pick acrobatics, you cannot have critical strikes, which has that sweet invigorating precision trait. And you won't replace trickery because then you kneel, make one shot and are out of initiative. btw, kneel should not use up any initiative in the first place.

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Insane.8291 said:Wait, so is Rifle just also considered trash for thieves? (Just came back after a 3 year haitus)

I tested rifle deadeye in WvW for maybe a week, and while it's cool, it's very slow and immobile. It's useless when you are with a zerg, and too slow moving in roaming. I switched back to double pistols + staff for capturing camps and land etc. Without unhindered combatant, everybody is running faster than you. Pistols allow me to go range with much more mobility and similar burst. With rifle, I noticed using up lots of initiative and often wasting it because targetting is completely bugged, especially when you kneel.

I have to disagree. The lack of on demand swiftness can suck if you don't have Acro running, but if you do, it's a good in-between for the mobility of SB and the damage off P/P. I like having it for the occasional group fights I find myself in. That 1200/1500 range is VERY useful in some situations along with standing skill 4, especially on a non-SA skirmisher build.

But you sacrifice a lot of damage and survivability because if you pick acrobatics, you cannot have critical strikes, which has that sweet invigorating precision trait. And you won't replace trickery because then you kneel, make one shot and are out of initiative. btw, kneel should not use up any initiative in the first place.

You are correct, but it isn't really a rifle build, it's a sword build. Acro functions for resetting Mark so I can proc the quickness more than once per fight, survivability and some extra sword damage. The rifle is so I can do some damage at range and have a bit of movement for escapes. Typical attack run for me is Mark, rifle 113 (for vuln and might), switch to s/p, sw 211132. Things go bad in melee? Rifle 444 and reset.

[babazhook.6805]

Rifle does in fact give on demand swiftness. You get 6 seconds via skirmishers shot. Indeed if you like boon sources rifle provides more then any other set with Swiftness, Fury , Vigor and Might all granted using the Rifle. Now there certainly the downside in that using these various rifle skills to garner those boons eats at ini that you might want for other skills , but it also means you can open up other traits that you would not otherwise have taken because you needed those boons (ie BOA over TOTC. You do not need TOTC in Rifle).

With that in mind IF in rifle Trickery beomes a must have only because of the added INI. You can get Boon rip via the stealth attack , you get the daze on steal via Unforgiving ,and might fury and swiftness all come through the rifle.