Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Faaris.8013]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

You say that like it is not possible to do. Both those fractals can easily be 3 manned.

Then you better enter with 5 dps and without healer, at least people then know they have to trait accordingly. When I have a healer in the group, I need to trust him/her and trait for full dps. Yesterday we got a "healer" druid and the dps players quickly realized we either kick or change our builds. I ended up playing Volcanic with self-healing and extra health pool. Should have kicked and get a real healer. I never said you cannot do these fractals without healer, I said that a group can wipe if the healer runs an alternate build and doesn't do his job. Then you have to switch your builds and playstyle and basically 4-man it. That's what we did yesterday, we were 5 players but 4-manned Volcanic.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Vulf.3098" said:As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

What is that supposed to tell us? People could do a 4 x 400 meters relay race alone, sure. But the group of 4 decent runners doing the same distance will be done a full minute earlier than the solo guy, and is ready to do another run right away, while the solo guy needs a break. Being a soloable boss doesn't mean anything for a group compilation because we don't plan to spend 20 minutes on Amala alone, we want to be done in 3 minutes. Of course everybody in the group could use your trailblazer build and grind Amala down, same with Subject 6. We kill that bugger in less than a minute or wipe and try again. It's faster and less stressful than grinding him down. Only reason to walk that path might be for the "Leaves no Hero behind" but even then it's probably smarter to just restart when someone dies.

[Feanor.2358]

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

I stopped even considering pots due to getting them anyway (got the infinite), and their effect is indeed quite large. But the food gives something like 3-5% a piece, for the holy-moly ones. I just find it strange to insist on that when you're knowingly choosing not to use something that gives +100-200%.

[Vulf.3098]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

You say that like it is not possible to do. Both those fractals can easily be 3 manned.

Then you better enter with 5 dps and without healer, at least people then know they have to trait accordingly. When I have a healer in the group, I need to trust him/her and trait for full dps. Yesterday we got a "healer" druid and the dps players quickly realized we either kick or change our builds. I ended up playing Volcanic with self-healing and extra health pool. Should have kicked and get a real healer. I never said you cannot do these fractals without healer, I said that a group can wipe if the healer runs an alternate build and doesn't do his job. Then you have to switch your builds and playstyle and basically 4-man it. That's what we did yesterday, we were 5 players but 4-manned Volcanic.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

What is that supposed to tell us? People could do a 4 x 400 meters relay race alone, sure. But the group of 4 decent runners doing the same distance will be done a full minute earlier than the solo guy, and is ready to do another run right away, while the solo guy needs a break. Being a soloable boss doesn't mean anything for a group compilation because we don't plan to spend 20 minutes on Amala alone, we want to be done in 3 minutes. Of course everybody in the group could use your trailblazer build and grind Amala down, same with Subject 6. We kill that kitten in less than a minute or wipe and try again. It's faster and less stressful than grinding him down. Only reason to walk that path might be for the "Leaves no Hero behind" but even then it's probably smarter to just restart when someone dies.

You missed the entire point of my post. The only reason your group is running a healer is so you can ignore mechanics and power your way through the boss with no effort. There is nothing wrong with this but don't sit there and act like it is that 1 person causing your group wipes when none of the t4's even in full glass builds specifically require a dedicated healer.

[Faaris.8013]

@Vulf.3098 said:You missed the entire point of my post. The only reason your group is running a healer is so you can ignore mechanics and power your way through the boss with no effort. There is nothing wrong with this but don't sit there and act like it is that 1 person causing your group wipes.

We asked for a healer so we could do the content faster and more efficient. When it turned out our healer was not healing, we didn't sit there acting up, we changed our builds and finished the run. But yes, that one person caused wipes because without that guy we would never have traited full dps in the first place.

[Vulf.3098]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:You missed the entire point of my post. The only reason your group is running a healer is so you can ignore mechanics and power your way through the boss with no effort. There is nothing wrong with this but don't sit there and act like it is that 1 person causing your group wipes.

We asked for a healer so we could do the content faster and more efficient. When it turned out our healer was not healing, we didn't sit there acting up, we changed our builds and finished the run. But yes, that one person caused wipes because without that guy we would never have traited full dps in the first place.

It is better to run 1 chrono and 4 dps for the fastest runs but adaptability is good when your group can not handle mechanics.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Vulf.3098" said:It is better to run 1 chrono and 4 dps for the fastest runs but adaptability is good when your group can not handle mechanics.

Understand the difference between "can not" and "don't want to". Could we handle Old Tom's mechanics? Of course we could, but we don't want to and so we outheal the damage.

[Vulf.3098]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Vulf.3098" said:It is better to run 1 chrono and 4 dps for the fastest runs but adaptability is good when your group can not handle mechanics.

Understand the difference between "can not" and "don't want to". Could we handle Old Tom's mechanics? Of course we could, but we don't want to and so we outheal the damage.

Then do not say it is the fastest and most efficient way then. When what it really is the safest less room for error way. That is literally the only reason the healer is there at that point.

[Feanor.2358]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:It is better to run 1 chrono and 4 dps for the fastest runs but adaptability is good when your group can not handle mechanics.

Understand the difference between "can not" and "don't want to". Could we handle Old Tom's mechanics? Of course we could, but we don't want to and so we outheal the damage.

Then do not say it is the fastest and most efficient way then. When what it really is the safest less room for error way. That is literally the only reason the healer is there at that point.

The fastest, most efficient and safest way is doing it with a standard meta comp. You break its defiance bar quickly and burn it down very fast due to all the damage buffs and modifiers you get. Any damage you take is outhealed by your druid who is spamming heals anyway to keep your might up.

[Astralporing.1957]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Also, you do realize that you'd go to LFG for CoF and you'd have like 5 parties asking for full zerker warriors ONLY. It was way more toxic, cancerous and elitist than fractals have ever been.That's not entirely true. Granted, there was toxicity and elitism in dungeons as well, but the main reason why you were seeing mostly those lfg's is because the "all open"/"casual run"/"no skipping" ones filled in very fast, and thus disappeared from view almost immediately. While the elitist ones could stay up for far longer time. In game that toxicity was mostly sidelined, and found traction mainly on forums/reddit. Unlike nowadays, where it's way more visible and more widely present.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.People were doing it without healers before, so it's not lack of healing that is a problem. Also, if a healer is not healing, it's not because they're running an alternate build.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.Again, even if out of 3 dps-es one is doing

completely no damage at all

, it's not possible for the fight to take 3x as long. Not unless there's something else going on.

@Faaris.8013 said:When I have a healer in the group, I need to trust him/her and trait for full dps.No, you don't. It's a pug, you should be prepared for things not going according to plan. If you can perform only in perfect conditions, then you can only blame yourself.

There's a reason why condi reapers were so popular in fractal pugs some time ago.

[Faaris.8013]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:It is better to run 1 chrono and 4 dps for the fastest runs but adaptability is good when your group can not handle mechanics.

Understand the difference between "can not" and "don't want to". Could we handle Old Tom's mechanics? Of course we could, but we don't want to and so we outheal the damage.

Then do not say it is the fastest and most efficient way then. When what it really is the safest less room for error way. That is literally the only reason the healer is there at that point.

The fastest, most efficient and safest way is doing it with a standard meta comp. You break its defiance bar quickly and burn it down very fast due to all the damage buffs and modifiers you get. Any damage you take is outhealed by your druid who is spamming heals anyway to keep your might up.

Exactly, that's why I never said what Vulf thinks I said. I clearly wrote "We asked for a healer so we could do the content faster and more efficient." Not "in the fastest and most efficient way".

[Kitty.6219]

This isn't new, I remember in dungeons and fractals the LFG filled with quite toxic LFGs where pugs said "Zerker or out", I was terrified to step into LFG or play with pugs for years until I was more confident with my knowledge of the mechanics and not die to a red AoE.

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

I stopped even considering pots due to getting them anyway (got the infinite), and their effect is indeed quite large. But the food gives something like 3-5% a piece, for the holy-moly ones. I just find it strange to insist on that when you're knowingly choosing not to use something that gives +100-200%.

Like I said, it's about communicating to a group of strangers that you read the requirements and are making an effort. If you join a "food/pots" group and aren't using food or pots, that's a good sign you don't care and are expecting to be carried.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

You say that like it is not possible to do. Both those fractals can easily be 3 manned.

Then you better enter with 5 dps and without healer, at least people then know they have to trait accordingly. When I have a healer in the group, I need to trust him/her and trait for full dps. Yesterday we got a "healer" druid and the dps players quickly realized we either kick or change our builds. I ended up playing Volcanic with self-healing and extra health pool. Should have kicked and get a real healer. I never said you cannot do these fractals without healer, I said that a group can wipe if the healer runs an alternate build and doesn't do his job. Then you have to switch your builds and playstyle and basically 4-man it. That's what we did yesterday, we were 5 players but 4-manned Volcanic.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

What is that supposed to tell us? People could do a 4 x 400 meters relay race alone, sure. But the group of 4 decent runners doing the same distance will be done a full minute earlier than the solo guy, and is ready to do another run right away, while the solo guy needs a break. Being a soloable boss doesn't mean anything for a group compilation because we don't plan to spend 20 minutes on Amala alone, we want to be done in 3 minutes. Of course everybody in the group could use your trailblazer build and grind Amala down, same with Subject 6. We kill that kitten in less than a minute or wipe and try again. It's faster and less stressful than grinding him down. Only reason to walk that path might be for the "Leaves no Hero behind" but even then it's probably smarter to just restart when someone dies.

You missed the entire point of my post. The only reason your group is running a healer is so you can ignore mechanics and power your way through the boss with no effort. There is nothing wrong with this but don't sit there and act like it is that 1 person causing your group wipes when none of the t4's even in full glass builds specifically require a dedicated healer.

Exaaaaactly

You know what? Maybe I'll head to the Aerodome and formulate a 5 man raid meta team the next time I want to map complete Queensdale because it would be a very efficient way to run the content.

All of these people in here making the statement that: "heal druid + chrono + 3 raid DPS is the most efficient way to run a party and the only way to play at an efficient high level". Did these people forget that 25 might stacking was a thing before heal druids? Did they already forget about PS Warriors or DPS specs blasting finishers on fire fields?

I repeat again: Raid meta requires a dedicated healer, yes but Raid meta is not Fractal meta.I'll guarantee you that a team with 1x Chrono and 4x DPS with slightly altered traits to blast small might to each other will render far higher DPS than a group with a Heal Druid. I mean... if you really want to argue "efficiency, speed and high skill cap players who don't need heal druids in fractals".

[Khaliel.3918]

I don't mind people playing whatever they want, but sometimes i want to clear fractals quickly so i can go do something else. Why do you think people HAVE to accept your soldier staff minion necro in their meta/exp group? If you want to play non-meta so bad, just start your own group and name it "non meta" or "chill dailies". I do it everyday and the group fills pretty quickly, stop being lazy and go start your own party.

[Theros.1390]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I wanted to write this thread because of something I watched happen, earlier today. There was this LFG for daily recommended fractals so I joined. The guy who made this LFG apparently felt he needed a raid heal druid and all raid metas to run his daily recommended fractals. There was 1 Berserker in the party who was using Heal Signet and the guy who created the LFG was throwing a fit over it. He tried to vote kick the Berserker but no one seconded the vote because well... it's just recommended and we really just wanted to get it done.

This is an exception. I really think that the number of players who are ridiculously demanding like this for rec fractales, is very low.

For T4, it's only a matter of time. The wipe risk is lower with a raid/meta compo. Today, for many players, T4 fractals are a simple daily step they do each day. So they dont find normal to spend more than 25-30 min to do this step. I also prefer a meta compo in T4, especially when I use the LFG, and then go with randoms players.

But I understand well your disappointment about the situation you faced. Be demanding for rec is just ridiculus imo.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Alehin, I believe you and many others are misunderstanding this thread. The biggest misconception here is the idea that Raid Meta is now the Meta for everything and this is not true, it is a sheltered opinion:

• 1 - You do not need a heal druid in fractals
• 2 - 25 might can easily be blasted or casually achieved through AoE boon splashing by DPS specs alone
• 3 - Heal Druid in a fractal group is a loss of DPS and time, concerning your own argument of clearing fractals quickly
• 4 - What I am saying in this thread is not that "IT SHOULD R BE OK 2 RUN SOLDIER WARIR W/ DOLYK RUNS IN T4S" I am saying that efficient fractal meta is achieved in different ways than running Raid Meta.

Stop copy/pasting. Use your brain, notice the obvious = Complete fractals in a shorter amount of time.

And yes, Theros:I understand that a Heal Druid is a way to ensure less wipes in fractals but seriously.... general T4 fractals are simply not hard for seasoned fractal veterans. I remember not long ago, you would NEVER see a dedicated Heal Druid in fractals and I tell you no lie, I saw less fractal wipes in those days than I do now, with people running Heal Druids in every other party that I join. You want to know why? Because PUG Heal Druids are often just bad and they suck. When a bad Heal Druid goes down, they all go down and then you "As a seasoned fractal veteran" have to make a choice:

• (A) Solo the content and finish it for the inexperienced party trying lean on raid meta druids while they yell at you for not /GGing. Which, kind of depends how low the bosses bar is and if it will be worth the time or not.
• (B) /GG and take the risk that the inexperienced party trying to lean on raid meta will actually survive and you wont have to repeat the cycle of making the decision of (A) again. And the more times you see this happen, the more a seasoned fractal veteran begins deciding to just solo and finish content, regardless of if the bad party yells at him or gets mad.

Yeah but the whole mindset of "/gg boys someone died" is not saving time in fractals. Sometimes it can but not usually.Learn the damn mechanics. COME ON I THOUGHT THESE BOIS WAS ALL RAID ORIENTED

[Feanor.2358]

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

I stopped even considering pots due to getting them anyway (got the infinite), and their effect is indeed quite large. But the food gives something like 3-5% a piece, for the holy-moly ones. I just find it strange to insist on that when you're knowingly choosing not to use something that gives +100-200%.

Like I said, it's about communicating to a group of strangers that you read the requirements and are making an effort. If you join a "food/pots" group and aren't using food or pots, that's a good sign you don't care and are expecting to be carried.

And then my dps ranges between 40% and 50% of the group total. Carry much?

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Alehin, I believe you and many others are misunderstanding this thread. The biggest misconception here is that Raid Meta is now the Meta for everything and this is not true:

• 1 - You do not need a heal druid in fractals
• 2 - 25 might can easily be blasted or casually achieved through AoE boon splashing by DPS specs alone
• 3 - Heal Druid in a fractal group is a loss of DPS and time, concerning your own argument of clearing fractals quickly
• 4 - What I am saying in this thread is not that "IT SHOULD R BE OK 2 RUN SOLDIER WARIR W/ DOLYK RUNS IN T4S" I am saying that efficient fractal meta is achieved in different ways than running Raid Meta.

Stop copy/pasting. Use your brain, notice the obvious = Complete fractals in a shorter amount of time.

1. Yes. But I want one regardless.
2. Sure, I do blast at the start of the fight. I still want my Druid.
3. Wrong. Druid's dps is mostly irrelevant. The group dps is dominated by the output of the two damage dealers. Magi, Harrier, Viper, it doesn't really matter. Just have a Druid, that's all.
4. Wrong again. Take a standard raid subsquad and you have a very good fractal party. Can it be improved? Sure thing, but not by much and it requires good teamplay. So for pugs I'd just stick with the raid meta, it's more foolproof.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Feanor.2358"

1. It's fine that you want a Druid
2. But why do you want a Druid when the party spits 25 might to each other anyway and you don't need dedicated healing in fractals?
3. How am I wrong on 3? lol my statement agrees with you. But for rest of your statement, please refer back to my 2.
4. I'm definitely not wrong on 4, considering that a full DPS party, casually blasting 25 might on each other, in a game mode that doesn't require a dedicated healer, can easily and more efficiently clear the T4 fractals in about 10 less minutes on average than a party with a heal druid.

The idea of a game mode "meta", in all game modes, game-wide in Guild Wars 2, has always and still is being designed around the idea of: Maximize DPS output and only have the defensive mechanisms that you need. The idea is to be time efficient in a game based around grinding. The big misconception that raid elite groups bleeding into fractals are misunderstanding is: Fractals are not hard bro. Even 99CM is not hard. 100CM is the only fractal requiring a 5 man raid subsquad.

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

I stopped even considering pots due to getting them anyway (got the infinite), and their effect is indeed quite large. But the food gives something like 3-5% a piece, for the holy-moly ones. I just find it strange to insist on that when you're knowingly choosing not to use something that gives +100-200%.

Like I said, it's about communicating to a group of strangers that you read the requirements and are making an effort. If you join a "food/pots" group and aren't using food or pots, that's a good sign you don't care and are expecting to be carried.

And then my dps ranges between 40% and 50% of the group total. Carry much?

Sure, after the run starts. Good for you. The problem is until the run starts, there is absolutely nothing to separate you from Mr. "Hurr Durr What's A Potion". A group asking for some kind of opening signal of competence, like "I read your LFG post and am now displaying potions and an appropriate food buff as requested", is totally justified in kicking someone who can't be bothered to do that much, even before finding out whether it's because they're a good player or a bad one. Because, frankly, finding that out takes too much time, especially when odds are it's because they're bad.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

You say that like it is not possible to do. Both those fractals can easily be 3 manned.

Then you better enter with 5 dps and without healer, at least people then know they have to trait accordingly. When I have a healer in the group, I need to trust him/her and trait for full dps. Yesterday we got a "healer" druid and the dps players quickly realized we either kick or change our builds. I ended up playing Volcanic with self-healing and extra health pool. Should have kicked and get a real healer. I never said you cannot do these fractals without healer, I said that a group can wipe if the healer runs an alternate build and doesn't do his job. Then you have to switch your builds and playstyle and basically 4-man it. That's what we did yesterday, we were 5 players but 4-manned Volcanic.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

What is that supposed to tell us? People could do a 4 x 400 meters relay race alone, sure. But the group of 4 decent runners doing the same distance will be done a full minute earlier than the solo guy, and is ready to do another run right away, while the solo guy needs a break. Being a soloable boss doesn't mean anything for a group compilation because we don't plan to spend 20 minutes on Amala alone, we want to be done in 3 minutes. Of course everybody in the group could use your trailblazer build and grind Amala down, same with Subject 6. We kill that kitten in less than a minute or wipe and try again. It's faster and less stressful than grinding him down. Only reason to walk that path might be for the "Leaves no Hero behind" but even then it's probably smarter to just restart when someone dies.

You missed the entire point of my post. The only reason your group is running a healer is so you can ignore mechanics and power your way through the boss with no effort. There is nothing wrong with this but don't sit there and act like it is that 1 person causing your group wipes when none of the t4's even in full glass builds specifically require a dedicated healer.

So we should spend longer and have to play harder because someone in the group didn't want to put the effort in preparation. Or should we kick that one person, and do it faster and easier?

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:It is better to run 1 chrono and 4 dps for the fastest runs but adaptability is good when your group can not handle mechanics.

Understand the difference between "can not" and "don't want to". Could we handle Old Tom's mechanics? Of course we could, but we don't want to and so we outheal the damage.

And it's sooooo much faster!> @"Alehin.3746" said:

I don't mind people playing whatever they want, but sometimes i want to clear fractals quickly so i can go do something else. Why do you think people HAVE to accept your soldier staff minion necro in their meta/exp group? If you want to play non-meta so bad, just start your own group and name it "non meta" or "chill dailies". I do it everyday and the group fills pretty quickly, stop being lazy and go start your own party.

You! I like you!> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

Alehin, I believe you and many others are misunderstanding this thread. The biggest misconception here is the idea that Raid Meta is now the Meta for everything and this is not true, it is a sheltered opinion:

• 1 - You do not need a heal druid in fractals
• 2 - 25 might can easily be blasted or casually achieved through AoE boon splashing by DPS specs alone
• 3 - Heal Druid in a fractal group is a loss of DPS and time, concerning your own argument of clearing fractals quickly
• 4 - What I am saying in this thread is not that "IT SHOULD R BE OK 2 RUN SOLDIER WARIR W/ DOLYK RUNS IN T4S" I am saying that efficient fractal meta is achieved in different ways than running Raid Meta.

Stop copy/pasting. Use your brain, notice the obvious = Complete fractals in a shorter amount of time.

And yes, Theros:I understand that a Heal Druid is a way to ensure less wipes in fractals but seriously.... general T4 fractals are simply not hard for seasoned fractal veterans. I remember not long ago, you would NEVER see a dedicated Heal Druid in fractals and I tell you no lie, I saw less fractal wipes in those days than I do now, with people running Heal Druids in every other party that I join. You want to know why? Because PUG Heal Druids are often just bad and they suck. When a bad Heal Druid goes down, they all go down and then you "As a seasoned fractal veteran" have to make a choice:

• (A) Solo the content and finish it for the inexperienced party trying lean on raid meta druids while they yell at you for not /GGing. Which, kind of depends how low the bosses bar is and if it will be worth the time or not.
• (B) /GG and take the risk that the inexperienced party trying to lean on raid meta will actually survive and you wont have to repeat the cycle of making the decision of (A) again. And the more times you see this happen, the more a seasoned fractal veteran begins deciding to just solo and finish content, regardless of if the bad party yells at him or gets mad.

Yeah but the whole mindset of "/gg boys someone died" is not saving time in fractals. Sometimes it can but not usually.Learn the kitten mechanics. COME ON I THOUGHT THESE BOIS WAS ALL RAID ORIENTED

Anyone that actually does fractals daily will tell you that a druid speeds up fractals a lot because the ability for the dpsers to focus on just dealing damage, plus the 10% extra damage he gives off with Glyph of Empowerment greatly outweighs the dps of a 5th member. Meta is meta for a reason, some guy didn't just go "oh this is now how it should be done from now on!" It's meta because people tried, and tried, and adapted until they realized that this is the most efficient way to do things, arguing that meta is not efficient is like saying that Usain Bolt isn't the fastest living sprinter in the world, or that a Fiat Punto is faster than a Bugatti Chiron.

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

I stopped even considering pots due to getting them anyway (got the infinite), and their effect is indeed quite large. But the food gives something like 3-5% a piece, for the holy-moly ones. I just find it strange to insist on that when you're knowingly choosing not to use something that gives +100-200%.

Like I said, it's about communicating to a group of strangers that you read the requirements and are making an effort. If you join a "food/pots" group and aren't using food or pots, that's a good sign you don't care and are expecting to be carried.

And then my dps ranges between 40% and 50% of the group total. Carry much?

Sure, after the run starts. Good for you. The problem is until the run starts, there is absolutely nothing to separate you from Mr. "Hurr Durr What's A Potion". A group asking for some kind of opening signal of competence, like "I read your LFG post and am now displaying potions and an appropriate food buff as requested", is totally justified in kicking someone who can't be bothered to do that much, even before finding out whether it's because they're a good player or a bad one. Because, frankly, finding that out takes too much time, especially when odds are it's because they're bad.

I take a different approach even if it's at my own expense. (Not saying that what you do is wrong, again it's there on the LFG, so people comply or not at their own risk)I don't really ask for anything, just type T4, or T4 daily, or sometimes when i want to play DPS i'll ask for Druid/Chrono as required.I don't kick people before we start wiping. I simply don't care about that. I care that we do fractals quickly. If there's one guy being carried, i really don't care.I run ArcDPS and it's not hard to look at the DPS and see who's doing well and who's not. But if the run is going well, why be a kitten and complain?I don't think either approach is right or wrong. It comes to personal preference, and it takes a severely entitled kitten to think he/she knows better and their opinion should take precedence over everyone else.Don't like the LFG entry for a group, don't join it. Make your own, or join one you like.Not liking something doesn't entitle you to demand it be modified.

[Cascade.8129]

I agree with the above, though I don't run a meter. Play what you like, don't join a group if you cant play whats being looked for. I play necro only in T4s and raiding, so my group choices are slim.. But I do find them. I look for groups that say"T4s with 99/100cm" or something generic that doesnt require anything specific. Those are usually the groups that, in my experience, have the most success.

[Vulf.3098]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:It is better to run 1 chrono and 4 dps for the fastest runs but adaptability is good when your group can not handle mechanics.

Understand the difference between "can not" and "don't want to". Could we handle Old Tom's mechanics? Of course we could, but we don't want to and so we outheal the damage.

Then do not say it is the fastest and most efficient way then. When what it really is the safest less room for error way. That is literally the only reason the healer is there at that point.

The fastest, most efficient and safest way is doing it with a standard meta comp. You break its defiance bar quickly and burn it down very fast due to all the damage buffs and modifiers you get. Any damage you take is outhealed by your druid who is spamming heals anyway to keep your might up.

Exactly, that's why I never said what Vulf thinks I said. I clearly wrote "We asked for a healer so we could do the content faster and more efficient." Not "in the fastest and most efficient way".

You are complaining about a healer that you know is under performing but yet you can't adapt to the situation in t4's where hardly any damage is going out. You can blame that 1 player all you want but it is also most likely the rest of the group playing poorly as well. The two examples you gave will be enough time and tells before you get to the boss to where you either should have kicked the healer or did mechanics but instead you blame the 1 person for the wipe that made your poor play stick out.

I never said you shouldn't run w/e comp you want but blaming other people for wipes when you aren't even playing perfectly yourself is not okay.

[Vulf.3098]

@"Warcry.1596" said:I agree with the above, though I don't run a meter. Play what you like, don't join a group if you cant play whats being looked for. I play necro only in T4s and raiding, so my group choices are slim.. But I do find them. I look for groups that say"T4s with 99/100cm" or something generic that doesnt require anything specific. Those are usually the groups that, in my experience, have the most success.

The spec gets a lot of negative stigma from something maybe people are just mad about how good it is in pvp and wvw lol. I play necro a lot in t4's 99 and 100cms and people often are surprised with certain things this spec can do. The entire uncategorized fractal can be cheesed with flesh wurm and epidemic while chaos fractal almost always results in me soloing the last 40% on the last boss because pugs mess that fight up often.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Vulf.3098" said:You are complaining about a healer that you know is under performing but yet you can't adapt to the situation in t4's where hardly any damage is going out.

You keep either misreading or not reading my posts. Just stop replying to them if you are not willing to do that. I clearly wrote that we adjusted and finished the run, it's here in this thread, you just have to read. Same with the difference between "faster and more efficient" and "fastest and most efficient".