What city will be attacked first?

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Cavalry isn't exactly servile.Calvary is a fluffier way of expressing the same designation when combined with the term mule. It's an easy conclusion to come to. I can give it the benefit of the doubt though, sure.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And he had the giants and suspected-charr in his main army too.Charr leaving Ascalon is a fairly new development. For the longest time they never really ventured out from their homelands save for their conquest attempts in Kryta and Orr, and never so far as Cantha or Elona. I'd say the furthest out they'd gone pre-GW2 was the Flame Legion finding their "gods" in the Ring of Fire Islands.

It's very unlikely Joko had awakened charr in his armies in GW1.

It's much more plausible the same logic that's applied to canids and abominations is the same scenario for the mummies of GW1 (although they probably do use the model rigging for charr in the same way the tengu use the charr rigging in GW2; doesn't mean tengu are charr).

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:By all accounts, they didn't. The Harathi came from the Maguuma Jungle, so unlikely to house any 200-or-less ties to Velderunners or Losaru. Tamini come from east of the/eastern Far Shiverpeaks and Modniir come from the Northern/Far Shiverpeaks. The "two-leg" talk was also used by modniir in Eye of the North, IIRC, but Elonian centaurs had a very clearly distinctively different appearance than Tyrian centaurs - they would have stood out like sore thumbs.Well the Elonian centaurs either fled Elona or they've been eradicated by Joko. No centaurs around except for their bones as macabre centerpieces for the Lich Lord or Elona. If any exist as awakened we haven't seen them.

As for the appearance thing if they did flee north and join the tribes troubling humans now, 200+ years of breeding with a different ethnic species as the minority (an already dwindling number of Elonian centaurs) would be plenty of time to assimilate into the centaurs we see today. They'd be indistinguishable.

Couldn't say what accounts you use to say this absolutely can't be the case. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little curious per your reasoning but I'm also not going to lose any sleep over it. You can believe what you want by all accounts.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And he had the giants and suspected-charr in his main army too.Charr leaving Ascalon is a fairly new development. For the longest time they never really ventured out from their homelands save for their conquest attempts in Kryta and Orr, and never so far as Cantha or Elona. I'd say the furthest out they'd gone pre-GW2 was the Flame Legion finding their "gods" in the Ring of Fire Islands.

It's very unlikely Joko had awakened charr in his armies in GW1.

It's much more plausible the same logic that's applied to canids and abominations is the same scenario for the mummies of GW1 (although they probably do use the model rigging for charr in the same way the tengu use the charr rigging in GW2; doesn't mean tengu are charr).

"Charr leaving Ascalon is a fairly new development". Uh, what?

First off, charr didn't even originate in Ascalon, but east of the Blazeridge Mountains - due north of Dzalana, in fact. They expanded north, west, then south to reach Ascalon - they likely expanded in other directions from their point of origin too.

We have just about no records of charr movements outside of the western side of Blazeridge Mountains, just enough to tell us "they came from east of the Blazeridge, and that is where the Blood Citadel, capital of the Blood Legion, currently lies."

It would be weirder for the charr not to spread south, even if just to see if they can assault Ascalon from behind the Great Northern Wall. Granted the Desolation is much further south than even that, but it's not improbable let alone "very unlikely". And while it's entirely plausible the Awakened Defilers of GW1 were just flesh-warped human corpses like the canids are, it's not entirely impossible for those to be charr given they share exact physiology.

Also... the Flame Legion didn't find the titans in the Ring of Fire Islands. Dunno where you got that - the volcano, Hrangmer, is where the Citadel of Flame is stationed. Due north of Ascalon's main outskirts by GW1's time (note I say main because Duke Gabin had estates further north than that.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:By all accounts, they didn't. The Harathi came from the Maguuma Jungle, so unlikely to house any 200-or-less ties to Velderunners or Losaru. Tamini come from east of the/eastern Far Shiverpeaks and Modniir come from the Northern/Far Shiverpeaks. The "two-leg" talk was also used by modniir in Eye of the North, IIRC, but Elonian centaurs had a very clearly distinctively different appearance than Tyrian centaurs - they would have stood out like sore thumbs.Well the Elonian centaurs either fled Elona or they've been eradicated by Joko. No centaurs around except for their bones as macabre centerpieces for the Lich Lord or Elona. If any exist as awakened we haven't seen them.

As for the appearance thing if they did flee north and join the tribes troubling humans now, 200+ years of breeding with a different ethnic species as the minority (an already dwindling number of Elonian centaurs) would be plenty of time to assimilate into the centaurs we see today. They'd be indistinguishable.

Couldn't say what accounts you use to say this absolutely can't be the case. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little curious per your reasoning but I'm also not going to lose any sleep over it. You can believe what you want by all accounts.

It wouldn't be 200+ years. Even excluding centaur stubbornness, Joko only began his smeer campaign against the Sunspears circa 1135 AE years (190 years ago), and had finished his campaign circa 1175 AE (150 years ago). So if Velderunner centaurs did migrate north, they'd have left 150-190 years ago (closer on the 150 side), and likely would have only gone so far as to join the Losaru given that even now, Joko has relatively little influence in the Crystal Desert.

Even if we assume they left Elona immediately after Nightfall, giving us exactly 250 years, centaurs are known to live for a couple centuries. For example, Ventari was considered an old centaur when we met him in 1072 AE. He died in 1180 AE - over a century later. So the youth of Nightfall's generation (which would include late-teen Zhed) would still be alive if they fled Elona!

And besides that, genetics do not disappear within a single generation. There would be gazelle centaurs or half-gazelle-half-horse centaurs all over the Tyrian tribes had they interbred. And that's assuming that their genetics are close enough to allow interbreeding with non-sterile offspring.

Not to mention that they would have had to march through human and norn lands to reach their cousin tribes, which would not go unnoticed or undocumented.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:First off, charr didn't even originate in Ascalon, but east of the Blazeridge Mountains - due north of Dzalana, in fact.

No, charr originate from Ascalon. Even if we're splitting hairs, where are the Blazeridge Mountains located? That's ignoring the fact that the Iron Legion has historically had a presense in what was the human kingdom of Ascalon well before humans established their kingdom there. While yes they certainly do all come north of Dzalana, the Blazeridge Mountains lie in Ascalon.

There's no evidence the charr went much further than the very edge of the border to the Crystal Desert from Ascalon. The Great Northern Wall seems to have expanded even that far if we go by the ruins found in the Field of Ruin. It was a big wall. The Ash Legion homelands should be around there somewhere in theory but they've never been officially marked.

Would be a great place to visit in the living story though. Maybe the Ash Legion homeland does lie closer to Dzalana? If that's the case I'll give your theory more weight in terms of charr branching out into Elona. Regardless I hope we end up in the Ash Legion homeland one way or another given we've gone all the way to Elona at this point. It'd be nice to return to Ascalon.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Also... the Flame Legion didn't find the titans in the Ring of Fire Islands. Dunno where you got that - the volcano, Hrangmer, is where the Citadel of Flame is stationed. Due north of Ascalon's main outskirts by GW1's time (note I say main because [Duke Gabin had estates further north than that]().

I was wrong. You're right. Hrangmar is in Ascalon and where the Flame Legion established their Flame Citadel. I don't know why I thought Hrangmar was in the Fire Island chain. I guess titans = fire islands?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:It wouldn't be 200+ years. Even excluding centaur stubbornness, Joko only began his smeer campaign against the Sunspears circa 1135 AE years (190 years ago), and had finished his campaign circa 1175 AE (150 years ago). So if Velderunner centaurs did migrate north, they'd have left 150-190 years ago (closer on the 150 side), and likely would have only gone so far as to join the Losaru given that even now, Joko has relatively little influence in the Crystal Desert.

Even if we assume they left Elona immediately after Nightfall, giving us exactly 250 years, centaurs are known to live for a couple centuries. For example, Ventari was considered an old centaur when we met him in 1072 AE. He died in 1180 AE - over a century later. So the youth of Nightfall's generation (which would include late-teen Zhed) would still be alive if they fled Elona!

Fair point on the centaurs. So Joko succeded in a complete erradication of the elonian centaur tribes then. RIP Zhed's ancestory.

Or maybe they're all in Dzalana awakened or otherwise. :B

 

[Yereton.8647]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Also... the Flame Legion didn't find the titans in the Ring of Fire Islands. Dunno where you got that - the volcano, Hrangmer, is where the Citadel of Flame is stationed. Due north of Ascalon's main outskirts by GW1's time (note I say main because [Duke Gabin had estates further north than that]().

Konig, I am very curious about human lands further north than the Citadel; that link seems to redirect me back to this forum page, and I cannot find anything about a Duke Gabin. Can you eloborate, please?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:

First off, charr didn't even originate in Ascalon, but east of the Blazeridge Mountains - due north of Dzalana, in fact.

No, charr originate from Ascalon. Even if we're splitting hairs, where are the Blazeridge Mountains located? That's ignoring the fact that the Iron Legion has historically had a presense in what was the human kingdom of Ascalon well before humans established their kingdom there. While yes they certainly do all come north of Dzalana, the Blazeridge Mountains lie in Ascalon.

The Blazeridge Mountains actually mark the eastern border of Ascalon, and does not reside in Ascalon itself as humans never conquered the ogre homelands. The Steppes on the mountains' western side, mark the furthest either human or charr ever owned. Even charr never conquered the Blazeridge; the Blazeridge Mountains is even where the Flame Legion had retreated to after their defeat by Kalla Scorchrazor's forces.

Also, from The Ecology of the Charr:

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

"and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeaks" refers to Ascalon and what in GW1 was labeled "Charr Homelands" and in GW2 is labeled "Blood Legion Homelands". This indicates that charr began east of the Blazeridge.

Charr were in Ascalon before humans first, yes. But they did not originate there.

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:There's no evidence the charr went much further than the very edge of the border to the Crystal Desert from Ascalon. The Great Northern Wall seems to have expanded even that far if we go by the ruins found in the Field of Ruin. It was a big wall. The Ash Legion homelands should be around there somewhere in theory but they've never been officially marked.

How do you think they made it to Orr if not through Ascalon (because they never made it through Kryta)? IIRC, it's actually stated that they had sent a party through Ascalon during the chaos caused by the Searing to assault Orr. So yes, there is evidence charr went further than the border to the Crystal Desert from Ascalon. There's also what looks suspiciously like a Searing Cauldron in the Crystal Overlook of The Desolation. But that's despite the point, given that would have been 200+ years too late to have become part of Joko's army before his defeat to Turai.

The point is that there's no evidence that the charr didn't reach the Crystal Desert from their origin point either.

There's no evidence about their activities from their origin point beyond "they warred with each other until the Khan-Ur united them, and now Blood Citadel sits there". So honestly it can go in any direction.

@Yereton.8647 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Also... the Flame Legion didn't find the titans in the Ring of Fire Islands. Dunno where you got that - the volcano, Hrangmer, is where the Citadel of Flame is stationed. Due north of Ascalon's main outskirts by GW1's time (note I say main because [Duke Gabin had estates further north than that]().

Konig, I am very curious about human lands further north than the Citadel; that link seems to redirect me back to this forum page, and I cannot find anything about a Duke Gabin. Can you eloborate, please?

Yeah forgot to link.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Gaban_estate

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Flight_North

The northernmost human estate was Gaban's estate which on GW1's world map post-Searing was on the edge of the seared lands.

[Yereton.8647]

@Konig Des Todes.2086Ah cheers! When I did that mission, I didn't realize it was so far out!

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:How do you think they made it to Orr if not through Ascalon (because they never made it through Kryta)?I didn't consider that. I did know they were beaten back in Kryta thanks to Mursaat support in the past, so it couldn't have been through Kryta. I'm certain after their defeat at Orr they didn't push out beyond their borders, but it does stand to reason they initially got there some other way. We know the Ash Legion homelands might be on the border to the Crystal Desert around Ebonhawke somewhere or perhaps even further south towards Dzalana?

Maybe Ascalon pushes more south in some places before giving way to the Crystal Desert? But they couldn't have gone too far into the CD since they wanted to get to Orr. Maybe they crossed that small stretch of sea between the Sea of Sorrows and the Elon River? It was probably a bit different than it is now and called something else. Maybe there was land they could have used to cross? I don't think the charr at that time were a sea faring people. But maybe they used magic to shoot themselves over there or something.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:We know the Ash Legion homelands might be on the border to the Crystal Desert around Ebonhawke somewhere or perhaps even further south towards Dzalana?

We know a grand total of nothing about the hypothetical Ash Legion Homelands. It certainly isn't around Ebonhawke - that's all Iron Legion or human territory there.

@CETheLucid.3964 said:Maybe Ascalon pushes more south in some places before giving way to the Crystal Desert? But they couldn't have gone too far into the CD since they wanted to get to Orr. Maybe they crossed that small stretch of sea between the Sea of Sorrows and the Elon River? It was probably a bit different than it is now and called something else. Maybe there was land they could have used to cross? I don't think the charr at that time were a sea faring people. But maybe they used magic to shoot themselves over there or something.

Ebonhawke is more or less the southernmost point of Ascalon (region, not nation - at some point, Ascalonians had even been in the Crystal Desert, as they seem to be the ones who built those giant statues). Ebonhawke is cradled into the mountains where the Shiverpeaks and the Blazeridge meet. So everything south of Ebonhawke is pure mountains.

And the charr were after all human nations, so their goal may not have been solely Orr, but Elona. Such a group would have died in the Desolation, however, had they went through the desert. This could explain why there is an artifact in the Crystal Overlook in GW1 which errily resembles a Searing Cauldron. That said, however, any such movements would be in 1070/1071/1072, and not before Joko's fall.

Still that wouldn't prevent charr from moving down south pre-820 AE, especially since we know the charr were searching far and wide for anything to aide them against the humans of Ascalon during that point. It wouldn't be unlikely for a centurion or even tribune to take a small army of charr south to try to find either alternative passageways or to strike at the aforementioned Ascalonians in the Crystal Desert.

About how they got to Orr: it's stated in Straits of Devastaion that they invaded the same way the Pact's land (southern) invasion occurs. Along those small islands.

[draxynnic.3719]

I'm pretty sure, in fact, that it's explicitly stated that it was the armies that hit Ascalon that proceeded to Orr. They basically blitzkreiged straight through on the assumption that they could take out Orr with sufficiently low casualties that they'll be able to go back and mop up the Ascalonian strongholds that were still battered from the Searing.

[Castigator.3470]

Well, if Palawa Joko wanted to go north to capture territory, the fist city he needs to take is actually Amnoon. From there he could expand north into the mountainous territories of the Deldrimor Front. From there, he could go either:West: To the crucible of eternity and capture sweet shiny asura technology.East: To Ebonhawke. The City is easy to defend.North: To the Black Citadel. The capital of the Iron Legion.

Most likely, he's not actually looking for more territory to rule over. At least not yet. The most pressing issue is that someone has fed incredible amounts of power to Kralkatorrik, who uses it to troll Elona with Crystal storms. In this state, the crystal dragon might be able to end Joko and his kingdom of undead, turning it into a crystalline wasteland inhabited by branded. He has lost a significant portion of his armies and has to make do with whatever corpses he can get his hands on.If he can't increase his military might by manpower, he needs specialized tools for anti dragon warfare. The research conducted in the Crucible of Eternity might be exactly what he's looking for. But really, any advanced weopon, any bit of value, whatever he can use to raise the fighting capacity of his army will do.

Once he's built up, he may go after high value targets, unless an opportunity presents itself, but in the meantime, he has to ensure, that Kralky doesn't wipe him out first.

I'ts also unlikely (but possible) that he goes after the cities, because the Iron Legion and the Kingdom of Kryta would be another front in addition to branded. With his troops stretched critically thin, an alliance of: The Free City of Amnoon, The Order of Shadows, The Sunspears, and the Dragon's Watch would be able to kill Joko and install Kossan in his place.

A Kingdom of Elona would be a major Power with vast resources, effectively restoring humans to the most powerful race on Tyria.Or maybe the territories of Istan, Vaabi and Kourna become sovereign entities again.Or someone steps forward and claims to be a descendent of the primordial kings and a succession war ensues.Maybe Steve Bubbles appears, turns Joko and his minions into tentacled abominations and we'll have to move to the far south to save Cantha, but that is the stuff for another expansion. ( So I expect stuff like that at the end of season four.)

[Bast.7253]

It would be interesting to see what the awakened canid and abominations look like before they are awakened and to get some kind of origin for them. The abominations look like skelk but the canid look like mini giganticus lupicususususus

[draxynnic.3719]

@Castigator.3470 said:A Kingdom of Elona would be a major Power with vast resources, effectively restoring humans to the most powerful race on Tyria.

Depends on how devastated it is by the fighting, and being mostly desert, it might not actually be that much stronger than Kryta once the Awakened are removed from the picture. The charr also have a lot more territory that is not currently explorable. A Kryta-Ebonhawke-Elona alliance might be able to overshadow the High Legions, but it might not.

[Castigator.3470]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Castigator.3470 said:A Kingdom of Elona would be a major Power with vast resources, effectively restoring humans to the most powerful race on Tyria.

Depends on how devastated it is by the fighting, and being mostly desert, it might not actually be that much stronger than Kryta once the Awakened are removed from the picture. The charr also have a lot more territory that is not currently explorable. A Kryta-Ebonhawke-Elona alliance

might

be able to overshadow the High Legions, but it might not.

Well, I was mixing lore and ingame logic, aswell as the fact, that Elona was at one point the overlord of Kryta.Ingame: The high amount of orichalcum and ancient wood allows them to produce weapons and armor of exotic quality.Lore: Elona has a good irrigation system, Istan seems to have wise scholars, Vabbi has a magic academy, Elona is the primary source of elonian wine, their cavalry is versatile and strong, they have natural oil reserves, good climate, and a high amount of total wealth (though unevenly distributed).If they could get rid of Palawa Joko, the Kingdom of Elona may actually be stronger than now, because Joko's dystopian control led to arrested development.

You are, however correct in that the country is currently ravaged by war and there's an annoying elder dragon further upsetting the country. We need to deal with that dragon.

In time, however, Elona will rebuild itself and be able to rival Kryta in power. It may be able to surpass Kryta, if the Kingdom of Orr was available as a potential trading partner, but Orr is only making slow progress towards habitability.With a calmer sea Elona could dominate the trade with the Empire of Cantha, but there is another elder dragon in the way. Airships may be able to solve that issue, but that requires trade with the other nations first.Then there's the northern Trade route to Ebonhawke. Reopening that route would allow them to trade with the high Legions.

Depending on the Power of Ash and Blood Legion, even a Kingdom of Elona may not be able to push humans to number one of tyrian geopolitics, but it would be a step in that direction. (Anyone else yearning for a grand strategy game set in Tyria?)

To get back on topic: I agree with the Order of Shadows in one point. Before any of that good stuff happens, we need to deal with that lich. Before Elona can change for the better, the self important lich has to go. Then we need to deal with an ubercharged Kralkatorrik in a way that is nonlethal, else tyria goes into magical overdrive.

Still, I see Palawa Joko as a greater long term threat than Kralkatorrik.A good way to defeat Palawa is to bait him so his forces are separated from the lich. Then we can strike directly at Palawa Joko. We also need to prevent his return from the mists, yet this task seems much more achievable than dealing with Kralkatorrik.Joko chronically suffers from overinflated ego syndrome and the Commander slighted him. The lich hates the Commander and I hope we can use this to our advantage.Get him to waste his resources on pointless assaults. (check)Find the whereabouts of his phylactery, ideally from the horse's mouth.Cause him to charge recklessly into battle to fight the Commander.He's smart and would never to such a thing under ordinary circumstances. We need to apply the rules of war and get him from merely mad at the Commander to so salty that all tyrian saltworks seem bland compared to him. Saltier than the Mists even! That's when he commits grave strategic errors.